FM Stagnation, questions to responsible persons

[pizzachips]

shame the mods create a thread sticky whereby only certain members can post in i.e dag dave, svenc, forameuss  and that can act as a thread for discussion with SI staff as that could be a very mutually beneficial way of communicating with one another but that it's open to all for viewing.

And only once a mod deems you "ready" can you be allowed in, as is the case in this thread, there will always be a few to spoil the fun.

[FrazT]

10 minutes ago, pizzachips said:

shame the mods create a thread sticky whereby only certain members can post in i.e dag dave, svenc, forameuss  and that can act as a thread for discussion with SI staff as that could be a very mutually beneficial way of communicating with one another but that it's open to all for viewing.

And only once a mod deems you "ready" can you be allowed in, as is the case in this thread, there will always be a few to spoil the fun.

Good idea in theory, but I can imagine all sorts of issues with the choice of who does and does'nt get access.  In practice, the private beta forum , into which you are invited to participate , is close to what you are suggesting and many of the forum regulars use that for commenting on and discussing the current game, with the developers

[Mallidon]

Actually getting banned or something anywhere takese a whole lot. And I mean a whole lot from my experience. Reminds me of this.

https://boingboing.net/2017/09/25/gamer-culture-is-so-toxic-that.html
 

It's not just gaming though. It's social media/internet communication in general.  There are lines crossed that wouldn't ever be crossed if people would actually face each other face to face when "communicating". And in the general tone, that's a line crossed by that developer in the above too. But it's all a different topic... In a sense, it may actually be better to not get too close to your community, as with it seems to come sense of entitlement too, which is a paradox. Cue in all the user reviews/feedback/starting with "I've been playing this since I Was This Close WIth These Guys On Champ Man 1799 and they actually seemed to listen to me back then, but.... enough is enough." Off some anonymous corporation churning out their Call Of Duty knock-offs, another perceived rehash is perceived as another rehash (which is fine and all). The other way disappointment  may get deeply personal (in several ways). And let's be realistic here, the game, any game will always be compromise, which means some kind of disappointment is a given.

6 hours ago, forameuss said:

But in all that post, you've already mentioned the exact reason why there's such a disconnect.  You said that you've been blocked on twitter and threatened with a ban.  No idea what you did, but you're not alone in it.  Why should the devs assign time - largely away from actually developing, too - when they're likely to get a fair amount of abuse for it?  They used to communicate a lot more, now they don't, and it's easy to see why.  It's not really in their job description to listen to people tell them how they should do their jobs, and certainly not to listen to people call them lazy, incompetent etc etc

It would be great if they did come on, and the community would get a lot out of it, that's obvious.  But it's not a necessity, and I'd far rather they spent the time doing their jobs rather than placating people that will often have little idea what they're talking about.  When the majority of people that visit here can converse in a civil, mature manner, then maybe one day we'll see more of the devs around here.  I wouldn't hold your breath though.

Tbf I was threatened with being banned for 'spamming' while most of my 'spamming' was posts advising other users how to get around an issue by using the pre-game editor that for months there was no responses by staff on here, or posting updates in one thread about responses from Steam forums (which got more interaction at the time about this issue). I think I also might have directed a couple people to the thread with the most info in it when they posted similar issues.

I've had a temp ban on here for another issue, which I cant actually see the thread anymore, but could have been for my tendency to use CAPS to highlight things and I do come off shouty at times, I might have come off a bit shouty or aggressive at a member of staff myself. Shouty and frustrated, mainly because the generic copy pasted responses I've seen are 'Could you upload your save to the FTP' and 'We are aware of this issue and are looking into it' and then months later when you check there has been 0 progress. Even just once in a while an 'updates' thread could appear in certain forums documenting the issues and bugs they are currently working on, so you don't just stare at dead threads for months with no updates.

The twitter, well that is up to Neil. He can block whoever he likes just like any of us can. 

And sure I might have answered my own question but I also pose this to ponder on: If staff have been more open in the past and people have been abusive, how on earth do they expect to solve this issue by seemingly retreating to their bunkers and only coming out to post 'we know about the issue'. Surely being open and more engaged with the community would decrease issues like this, and distancing yourself is only going to increase them?

Anyway this is why I'm responding to Neil, because despite the clash we had before I actually like the fact he takes the time and responds in the manner he does from time to time.

[forameuss]

So basically, "I wasn't really banned for much, just a bit of spamming, then I may have got a temporary ban for caps...or shouting...or being aggressive...but it was only because they deserved it"

On the subject of updating people, what do you really expect them to do?  Any actual meaningful update will likely go over most people's heads and become useless, and anything lower than that would likely be fluff.  Plus just saying they're working on something gives you absolutely nothing.  It's a total placebo.  You can estimate a bug will take a day's work to fix and be at it for weeks, or look at a horrible one and have it "fixed" in an hour.  I can just see it now, them saying they're working on a bug, and ignorant people thinking that that's it just hours away from being fixed.  You'll then get badgered every day it isn't fixed because, I mean, you've been working on it?  How hard is it to fix such a simple thing? I  could do that in my sleep.  I tell you, if they had competition...  repeat ad nauseum.

I'll repeat what I said before.  If people can play nice and communicate in a civil manner, they might one day return.  It's not something that's strictly necessary, so it should be a privilege earned rather than a privilege owed.

[tacticsdude]

A couple of points for everyone to think about:

1. Licenses. FM has a ton of licenses and they can't be cheap, and they have to pay for them every year. So there is a big built in cost to releasing the game even before accounting for game features.

2. Sales volume. FM is a big game but it is not FIFA. The kind of money FM is making probably does not pay for the type of larger development teams you'll see at companies like EA that are truly raking in a ton of cash and releasing very minor "improvements" every year.

Having said all of that, I do think FM should be cheaper, but it has been for me. I always buy it on sale and I definitely skip versions. Regardless, with the amount of hours I put into this game pretty much any cost would be justified.

[Mallidon]

10 hours ago, forameuss said:

So basically, "I wasn't really banned for much, just a bit of spamming, then I may have got a temporary ban for caps...or shouting...or being aggressive...but it was only because they deserved it"

On the subject of updating people, what do you really expect them to do?  Any actual meaningful update will likely go over most people's heads and become useless, and anything lower than that would likely be fluff.  Plus just saying they're working on something gives you absolutely nothing.  It's a total placebo.  You can estimate a bug will take a day's work to fix and be at it for weeks, or look at a horrible one and have it "fixed" in an hour.  I can just see it now, them saying they're working on a bug, and ignorant people thinking that that's it just hours away from being fixed.  You'll then get badgered every day it isn't fixed because, I mean, you've been working on it?  How hard is it to fix such a simple thing? I  could do that in my sleep.  I tell you, if they had competition...  repeat ad nauseum.

I'll repeat what I said before.  If people can play nice and communicate in a civil manner, they might one day return.  It's not something that's strictly necessary, so it should be a privilege earned rather than a privilege owed.

Oh you are a joy aint you lol?

Firstly I've been open and honest about my history. I didn't even have to bring it up. I've even, in my reply to Neil said I like that he responds and that I hold no grudges or w/e from what happened. I can see it from his side too.

I also clearly said I was NOT banned for spamming, it was a threat. I clearly broke up the two instances and I have CLEARLY stated WHY this kind of frustration can flare up quite easily. Simply feeling like you are being ignored, seeing other threads being ignored and other people asking 'is there a fix' and not even seeing a staff member bother to repost a known fix (which I posted on Steam and on here btw, in a few threads for the visibility of the OP or anyone else who might have wanted it) via pre game editor etc, just causes more and more frustration. Especially when said bug appeared in early March (if I remember right) with their patch and was not fixed for the rest of that FM. We only actually got a proper answer saying it would not be fixed after many months (and I'm only hoping it is fixed now for FM18).

SI has a niche fanbase and an almost monopoly on Football management sims. This means they have become frustratingly slow in the communication stakes mainly because they can. I do wonder if it would be different if there was even a modicum of proper challenge. Would they be reaching out the community more just to make sure they were ahead of the competition? Perhaps other titles going defunct all those years ago was a bad thing. Nothing spurs on innovation and improvement than competition! Anyway... I digress...

I don't think I'm being unreasonable asking for more updates. Your assertion that it would go over most peoples heads or be fluff assumes that SI are incapable of actually putting into place some form of community outreach or interaction programme that could be useful and hit the right notes if they tried. I'm pretty sure they could and would see successful and positive results from it. Sure there will probably be complaints rising but, and to turn your final point on its head, THEY should be the ones who feel privileged that many thousands of fans have bought their game, continue to buy their game and support them and actually hope to see a little more than 'We know, stop posting you are spamming' or the continual 'Please upload it to the FTP so we can have a look' for issues where there are multiple threads with uploads already or existing issues from previous FM's and things that can be easily reproduced from the basic database itself. Lets be honest the 'badgering' and silly comments will always be there, I don't think they are reason enough to not try at all.

And as for these forums, the bug forums and everything that us fans post should be considered as assistance to SI. People are willing to take their time out of their day, put down their game and come up with bugs, suggestions and critiques about the game they (and I) love. I've come over angry at times and I've mostly apologised when I have. Again nobody makes me admit this. I admit my mistakes freely and stand by my points, though not always the delivery. I don't want to be a guy who gives a member of staff doing their job a hard time, I really don't. Those who do, and legitimately just come here purposely to do so should be banned. Permanently.

Seriously though. There really could be better interaction. More interaction. It would take time and effort, perhaps diverting someones attention or perhaps creating an opportunity for someone new. Again, I don't see the harm in SI trying something. At worst someones time gets diverted for a couple months while they try to provide more feedback, at best people see what SI are trying to do and react positively and it shuts some of the true 'haters' up a little. And damn, that would be nice because those people are the worst!

[themadsheep2001]

Your comments are exactly why they do less and less. Glenn has given very specific reasons why he hasn't, and your point is to essentially blame them for getting abuse. Anyway. Neil has responded. It's up to users to help cultivate a better back and forth with other members and staff up if they want more engagement. This thread has served a purpose. Might sticky Neil's post though.