FM requires more football?

[masno]

So, I posted this on feedback, but I think it can get into a real discussion with a separate thread,so here we go:

I played this year and I got to the conclusion that I will wait until the game became a total football simulation, not just a club management.

In the point of transfers,team meetings,press and stuff like that, the game is satisfatory, have a lot of depth in those points.

But when we got on the tactic/match part... man,that hurts. The role system isn't good at all, I see plenty of people grab just the basics roles (like central midfielder) and customize it. Teams in rl don't go to players and say " you gonna play as winger today,no no, go inside foward", they gave instructions. One example is Neymar on Barcelona, he wasn't a winger, because he cut to midfield, and he wasn't a inside foward too, because he wasn't everytime cuting inside, so, what he is in the role system?

Nothing, because he had instructions to play on a certain way that is not general to became a role, and thats a big failure on the actual tactics.

The ME looks better than last year, but players still like robots, what differs ronaldo and messi from others in the actual game? Their status, and just that,they are not unique, they are just a player with great status,nothing more than that, and this is a major failure on the football side. Football is marqued for great players, players taht could do things that other couldn't do. Look at Ronaldinho Gaúcho, he could do a lot of dribbling without lose the ball, do incredible passes and scores goals, thats unique, but that can't happen on FM in its actual form.

Don't get yourselfs thinking that this is overcriticizing the game, FM18 is the best so far in my opinion, but the lack of football is devasting. A lot of new system, new types of playstyles, but poor reproduced on actual FM's, would be nice if we could control certain game phases, like defensive and offensive, without the actual formation = defensive, roles/duties = offensive.

So,that are my thoughs about the path that FM is choosing, taking too much of management and almost nothing of football, what are your thoughs?

[Andrew_Goats_Gruff]

I agree to an extent, they’re trying to be clever. Today Per Mertesaker, I want you to be the stopper, even though the attack is coming from Koscielys side, you must stop while koscielng covers... that makes more sense than roles! In real life a striker is either an advanced, target man, or fox in the box. Today Neuer? I want you to play as a sweeper keeper, although thats your natural game, please listen to me... Today walcott, I want you to be a winger. Today Shelvey I want you to be a deep-lying playmaker... Today Hazard, I want you to shoot often.

 

It’s actually like watching WWE, they’re child like features. 

Just put 11 on the pitch, a player should be set to his natural game, in real life that’s why you buy who you buy, because what they offer.

For me FM should only offer Formation, TI instructions and mentality and shape.

Today Rashford, I dont want you taking long shots.

[masno]

5 hours ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

I agree to an extent, they’re trying to be clever. Today Per Mertesaker, I want you to be the stopper, even though the attack is coming from Koscielys side, you must stop while koscielng covers... that makes more sense than roles! In real life a striker is either an advanced, target man, or fox in the box. Today Neuer? I want you to play as a sweeper keeper, although thats your natural game, please listen to me... Today walcott, I want you to be a winger. Today Shelvey I want you to be a deep-lying playmaker... Today Hazard, I want you to shoot often.

 

It’s actually like watching WWE, they’re child like features. 

Just put 11 on the pitch, a player should be set to his natural game, in real life that’s why you buy who you buy, because what they offer.

For me FM should only offer Formation, TI instructions and mentality and shape.

Today Rashford, I dont want you taking long shots.

You got my point, with you buy ibra, you are buying him because ofwhat he can do, not because "yeah, he have great shoooting, I can put him as a guy that almost not shot, but when he does it,will get the goal"

The part of just put 11 player on the field and let they play their game I disagree a little, every team have their own system, that player adapts to it, like Barcelona you need to pass a lot, have good position and don't shoot outside the area.

This role system is kinda lame, Just some roles exists on football, like false nine and playmaker, that are specific jobs that have name, excluding that, most of teams use just instructions to the players.

[Cougar2010]

3 minutes ago, masno said:

This role system is kinda lame, Just some roles exists on football, like false nine and playmaker, that are specific jobs that have name, excluding that, most of teams use just instructions to the players.

The roles are just macros so that you don't have to set up 20-30 instructions per players.

They simply set a number of instructions in one click nothing more.  From the default settings you can then tweak some of those instructions.

Before we had the roles we had to set all the instructions individually and it was complicated & time consuming.

[masno]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

The roles are just macros so that you don't have to set up 20-30 instructions per players.

They simply set a number of instructions in one click nothing more.  From the default settings you can then tweak some of those instructions.

Before we had the roles we had to set all the instructions individually and it was complicated & time consuming.

But that is how football works, we need to take most of our time just with press, keeping players happy and things like that, so why we can't get a tactic system that we can have a plenty of time just to get it right? Real life works like that

And roles are not just macro, they influence on lotta of things. With I get a playmaker, he will shot less, why? Because SI said? And if I wanted to build a playmaker that shot normally or often? I would need to configure a central midfielder with the rights PI, but then he wouldn't be a ball magnet anymore, so its a loss-loss situation.

Last year we didn't get the option of wide midfielders, than no, its not just macro, we are playing the way SI wants us to play, they restrict things and we can't do nothing about it.

Not conviced yet? Ok then, imagine one thing with me, you have a team, correct? This team will have 3 awesome player, that do everything correct, and the rest just do their part. But you want just this 3 players, just them, to be fluid and more expressive, while the other just be there,playing normally, you can't do that. In FM18 and we can't still say who you play more expressive than the other, and don't say "risky passes do that" because it's not just that, its natural playing, I don't want to buy a messi and say to him "dribble/do risky/shoot a lot" because then he is just doing things a lot and hopping to get some of them right, I want him to be himself, play a natural football, be more expressive.

Understand my point?

[Cougar2010]

12 minutes ago, masno said:

But that is how football works, we need to take most of our time just with press, keeping players happy and things like that, so why we can't get a tactic system that we can have a plenty of time just to get it right? Real life works like that

Its exactly how football works.

A manager gives players instructions, all the roles do is give the instructions in one go rather than separately.

You might want to go back to a system where every instruction is given individually but most users don't want that.

 

12 minutes ago, masno said:

And roles are not just macro, they influence on lotta of things. With I get a playmaker, he will shot less, why? Because SI said? And if I wanted to build a playmaker that shot normally or often? I would need to configure a central midfielder with the rights PI, but then he wouldn't be a ball magnet anymore, so its a loss-loss situation.

Last year we didn't get the option of wide midfielders, than no, its not just macro, we are playing the way SI wants us to play, they restrict things and we can't do nothing about it.

A playmaker shoots less because he is a playmaker.

If he shooting a lot then he isn't a playmaker is he?

Yes in a way the roles are set to what SI believe them to be but that is always going to be the case and there isn't a suitable alternative atm.  You will never be able to replicate in a game exactly what happens IRL, therefore you have to accept that the game will have limitations both because you are limited by coding and because users don't want to be limited to one or two matches in a real life week.

 

 

[Rsap001]

Having the roles to assign is a good short cut. In the game I assign a player to be a Trequartista; in reality I would probably have to sit down with the player and define all of the things I want him to do in that role - but that’s not particularly interesting and I’d rather be able to do it in one click. I’m happy to have the option to adjust the role through player instructions instead. 

[masno]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

Its exactly how football works.

A manager gives players instructions, all the roles do is give the instructions in one go rather than separately.

You might want to go back to a system where every instruction is given individually but most users don't want that.

 

A playmaker shoots less because he is a playmaker.

If he shooting a lot then he isn't a playmaker is he?

Yes in a way the roles are set to what SI believe them to be but that is always going to be the case and there isn't a suitable alternative atm.  You will never be able to replicate in a game exactly what happens IRL, therefore you have to accept that the game will have limitations both because you are limited by coding and because users don't want to be limited to one or two matches in a real life week.

 

 

I think you don't really get my point,but ok, here we go.

Roles are restricted things, you already agreed with me that, and like I said in the inicial op, I will come back to FM when it became a football simulator, and roles are very far away from a simulation at all.

The playmaker thing, if I want my playmaker to shot a lot, why can't I do that? Because SI said that they think playmakers don't do that? Thats not even 1% of how football works, I'm the manager, I choose how they gonna play, I don't care if its wrong, I want to give this instruction to him and see how it goes, understand my point?

This role system is so wrong that we couldn't get a box to box more offensive until this year, so wrong that we couldn't get wide midfielders until this year, why we can't have offensive/defensive formations at all? It is hard to put a standard formation and let players tweek just a little the positions of the formation, like put a player on the MAE, offensive phase,player go In the Striker position, defensive phase, he drops ME, it is that hard? The football part of FM is laughable compared to todays football.

If you say that community does want the roles and be on a limited game where they can't even do tactics the way they want, then I think FM is not my game, and can't play a game where I can't have my players doing what I want them to do, then for my own good, I should just gave up and watch real football.

[Cougar2010]

2 minutes ago, masno said:

If you say that community does want the roles and be on a limited game where they can't even do tactics the way they want, then I think FM is not my game, and can't play a game where I can't have my players doing what I want them to do, then for my own good, I should just gave up and watch real football.

Another point is that the tactics have to be usable by AI managers as well.  Giving the human user free reign would mean a significant advantage over the AI which isn't good for the game.  Its easier to restrict the human user than it is to code the AI to be able to use every possible tactic a human could come up with.

Only you can make the decision whether FM is the game for you but if you want free reign to manage a team I would suggest you get involved in real football.

[masno]

Just now, Cougar2010 said:

Another point is that the tactics have to be usable by AI managers as well.  Giving the human user free reign would mean a significant advantage over the AI which isn't good for the game.  Its easier to restrict the human user than it is to code the AI to be able to use every possible tactic a human could come up with.

Only you can make the decision whether FM is the game for you but if you want free reign to manage a team I would suggest you get involved in real football.

Hahahaha, bro please,stop this "involve in real football", I just want to enjoy a game, I don't want to get this as my job. I just want to get home, sit on my computer, and say to my players what I want them to do, not to get on a real club, imagine, how many years should I be doing this until get on proper team? I don't see anyone saying to FIFA players "You don't like a thing in the game? GO there and be the player yourself".

And this system doesn't have any logic at all to me, would be the same thing, how? Simple, SI can give THEIR role system to AI. "wait,what?". Simple, they say that playmakers don't shoot a lot, so make the AI do it, the roles wouldn't be in the game, but the AI would follow a imaginary role system so they wouldn't be easy to get rekt by players. And restricting the game doesn't make it good for the AI too, because every single FM has some exploit formation that make AI loses every single game.

I am just saying that the game can give more freedom, but SI don't want this, this system that I write could be on the game, AI would be like this year,have their roles, their pre-defined roles, and players just play the game the way they want.

[mack4ever]

To those of you who are effectively saying that managers in real life don't tell their players to play in a specific way, you're wrong.

Of course it's not as regimented as it is (by necessity) in Football Manager but it does still happen. How many times in real life have you seen a club sign a player who has been great their previous club, put them in the system that the manager wants to play, expect them to play in a way that is alien to them, and then flop as a result? Happens time and time again, player tries to do what they have been instructed to by their manager and fails as a result.

[masno]

2 minutes ago, mack4ever said:

To those of you who are effectively saying that managers in real life don't tell their players to play in a specific way, you're wrong.

Of course it's not as regimented as it is (by necessity) in Football Manager but it does still happen. How many times in real life have you seen a club sign a player who has been great their previous club, put them in the system that the manager wants to play, expect them to play in a way that is alien to them, and then flop as a result? Happens time and time again, player tries to do what they have been instructed to by their manager and fails as a result.

I think what Andrews said it is he wants to say to his players to do what they want, not that every player on every team plays the way they want.

[Mitja]

if you want your players to do what they want you can do it, play very fluid.

and of course real life players have roles predefined, which they fullfil then on the pitch.  very similar to FM.

[masno]

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

if you want your players to do what they want you can do it, play very fluid.

and of course real life players have roles predefined, which they fullfil then on the pitch.  very similar to FM.

I don't want players to do what they want, I want them to play my way, maybe 1-2 players doing what they want,but just them.

This roles of players are defined by the manager,with specific instructions, not something that SI said to them,like "winger, you will only cross from bylane or early,not the other way". Like I said before, there is nothing even close to what neymar did in barcelona on the roles.

[Mitja]

20 minutes ago, masno said:

I don't want players to do what they want, I want them to play my way, maybe 1-2 players doing what they want,but just them.

This roles of players are defined by the manager,with specific instructions, not something that SI said to them,like "winger, you will only cross from bylane or early,not the other way". Like I said before, there is nothing even close to what neymar did in barcelona on the roles.

I see Neymar as typical inside forward.  the problem is that ME will never be able to replicate real life. but it does a solid job in this department. 

personally I see tactical system too complicated and what you suggest would complicate things even more, especially for AI. and we had such a system when instructions were to be added manualy but the role system is much more logical. it's not perfect and there's room  for improvements of course but most of the stuff you mentioned should be happening under the hood (better AI and ME). for example with your winger example, if he's set to cross from byline he should still try crosses from deep when it's the best decision for given situation. but if you watch matches on full mode you will see that such behaviour does happen, especiallly when you give your players more creative freedom.

[Maaka]

You can still give the players specific instructions, like cross early, or late, cross high or low, go wide or inside, short or direct passes, you can tweak almost anything to your liking, so what are you really lacking?

[masno]

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I see Neymar as typical inside forward.  the problem is that ME will never be able to replicate real life. but it does a solid job in this department. 

personally I see tactical system too complicated and what you suggest would complicate things even more, especially for AI. and we had such a system when instructions were to be added manualy but the role system is much more logical. it's not perfect and there's room  for improvements of course but most of the stuff you mentioned should be happening under the hood (better AI and ME). for example with your winger example, if he's set to cross from byline he should still try crosses from deep when it's the best decision for given situation. but if you watch matches on full mode you will see that such behaviour does happen, especiallly when you give your players more creative freedom.

3 minutes ago, Maaka said:

You can still give the players specific instructions, like cross early, or late, cross high or low, go wide or inside, short or direct passes, you can tweak almost anything to your liking, so what are you really lacking?

Typical inside forward? Whata? He is not even close to do what a inside forward do.

the tactical system is just fine to me nowadays. Support wingers have choice,attack wingers dont. I understand what you both are saying,but what I am saying is that nowadays you can't do anything unique in FM, I know that this is for the best, the AI can't be unique, but having a world class player that play in the exact same way that a normal player tactically saying, is complete wrong.

Give Guardiola L.Sané, and he will play him as a winger,Sané is good but not world class, now give him Neymar/Ronaldo and you gonna see a complete different thing, unique, they gonna do a lot more.

I'm not lacking in anything, I understand FM things and play the game well, but I want more freedom, more football in this game.

[Maaka]

I'm still not sure I really understand what you really want.
You're saying that:

3 minutes ago, masno said:

having a world class player that play in the exact same way that a normal player tactically saying, is complete wrong

What is wrong with that?
Even if you have one "world class" winger, and his back up is quite ordinary, why wouldn't you want the back up to have (generally) the same instructions (or assignments) on the field?

And even if you don't, it's not a big deal, you can quite easily give them different PIs, even if they play in the same position.

If you have Sané, you give him a set of PIs that suits him, and suits what you think he should do. Then you get Neymar, and you can easily assign him other PIs that doesn't apply to Sané.

[Mitja]

how was Neymar not an inside forward when playingfor Barca? he cuts inside, runs with ball... you could have given better example like Messi not being inside forward nor advanced playmaker, I see his role as typical wide trequartista. I think roles are describing player styles perfectly well, so it's not this system which is not good enough,it's the under the hood mechanism, the ME that cannot replicate real life football in great detail. for example it's a much bigger issue for me if the wide forwards  such as Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Hazard cannot score realistic amount of goals, than worrying about such details like being able to instruct crossing into detail. I can agree with you but don't agree that we need more detailed player instruction control but better AI and ME. 

[masno]

4 minutes ago, Maaka said:

I'm still not sure I really understand what you really want.
You're saying that:

What is wrong with that?
Even if you have one "world class" winger, and his back up is quite ordinary, why wouldn't you want the back up to have (generally) the same instructions (or assignments) on the field?

And even if you don't, it's not a big deal, you can quite easily give them different PIs, even if they play in the same position.

If you have Sané, you give him a set of PIs that suits him, and suits what you think he should do. Then you get Neymar, and you can easily assign him other PIs that doesn't apply to Sané.

I'm not getting my point correctly, for what I've see, I will try to be more clear.

Lets say you have both (neymar and sané), I would definitelly say "neymar,you have freedom do try your best,you can cut,you can cross,do what you know" and sané "Run wide with the ball and cross".

3 minutes ago, Mitja said:

how was Neymar not an inside forward when playingfor Barca? he cuts inside, runs with ball... you could have given better example like Messi not being inside forward nor advanced playmaker, I see his role as typical wide trequartista. I think roles are describing player styles perfectly well, so it's not this system which is not good enough,it's the under the hood mechanism, the ME that cannot replicate real life football in great detail. for example it's a much bigger issue for me if the wide forwards  such as Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Hazard cannot score realistic amount of goals, than worrying about such details like being able to instruct crossing into detail. I can agree with you but don't agree that we need more detailed player instruction control but better AI and ME. 

He didn't cut inside all the time, he was very wide sometimes,doing a winger job, he had a lot of freedom on the left side, like I said "be more expressive" PI, not TI.

We need better AI and better ME, but not saying who can play more expressive is not football. Like I said, what differs Ronaldo/Messi from others is their status, nothing more than that. We can be here all day long, and I say the same thing, roles just put what you can't do, saying what SI thinks it's correct.

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, masno said:

I'm not getting my point correctly, for what I've see, I will try to be more clear.

Lets say you have both (neymar and sané), I would definitelly say "neymar,you have freedom do try your best,you can cut,you can cross,do what you know" and sané "Run wide with the ball and cross".

He didn't cut inside all the time, he was very wide sometimes,doing a winger job, he had a lot of freedom on the left side, like I said "be more expressive" PI, not TI.

We need better AI and better ME, but not saying who can play more expressive is not football. Like I said, what differs Ronaldo/Messi from others is their status, nothing more than that. We can be here all day long, and I say the same thing, roles just put what you can't do, saying what SI thinks it's correct.

it's already there...as for your Sane, Neymar example one could be attack duty (more expressive) and the other support (less expressive). advanced pm on attack duty is already much more expressive than BWM on defend duty.

[masno]

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

it's already there...as for your Sane, Neymar example one could be attack duty (more expressive) and the other support (less expressive). advanced pm on attack duty is already much more expressive than BWM on defend duty.

You didn't get it hahahaha, but ok ok,lets try again.

I would definitevely want both on attack, because they can dribble, but I would want neymar to cut inside as well, not just being on the crossing simulator, understand that?

That was what neymar did on Barça. He had freedom,and what fm let's us to do is, or he cut inside, or he go wide, not the both.

Nowadays barça has 4-3-"3" that I am struggling to simulate because messi is on all points of the attack pitch, deulofeu hangs most of the time on the right side, and suarez center and left, that is very hard to simulate on fm.

[Mitja]

on fm17 my IFs do try dribbling down the flank (as do AI's), of course not as often as they cut inside. footedness  plays  part as do the ppms. just like in real life I would say. do you watch your games on full sometimes (I doubt you didn't spot your IFs dribbling down the line) and what mentality and creative freedom settings do you use? you can also set them to stay wider, narrower, roam, move forward and that way you also influence their behaviour, for example IF who stays wide and plays on the same side as his stronger foot will behave much more like traditional winger..

but  imo the source of your problems is that you excpect the ME to replicate real life which will never happen.  also real life managers don't and can't control every aspect of what's going on on the pitch but this is a computer game and it works a little different. while I agree there are many things that could improve, like defending and general AI behaviour, having absoulte control over everything is not the way to go (imo). 

try this cheat tactics with Barca and you will see what this ME is capable of (and AI not):

                                         GK

 WB-A             CD                                 CD                       WB-S

 

                    MC-S        MC-D/S         MC-A

                                                                   SS-A    (AMCL)

              F9-S (STCR)

                                     CF-A  (STC)

[masno]

4 minutes ago, Mitja said:

on fm17 my IFs do try dribbling down the flank (as do AI's), of course not as often as they cut inside. footedness  plays  part as do the ppms. just like in real life I would say. do you watch your games on full sometimes (I doubt you didn't spot your IFs dribbling down the line) and what mentality and creative freedom settings do you use? you can also set them to stay wider, narrower, roam, move forward and that way you also influence their behaviour, for example IF who stays wide and plays on the same side as his stronger foot will behave much more like traditional winger..

but  imo the source of your problems is that you excpect the ME to replicate real life which will never happen.  also real life managers don't and can't control every aspect of what's going on on the pitch but this is a computer game and it works a little different. while I agree there are many things that could improve, like defending and general AI behaviour, having absoulte control over everything is not the way to go (imo). 

try this cheat tactics with Barca and you will see what this ME is capable of (and AI not):

                                         GK

 WB-A             CD                                 CD                       WB-S

 

                    MC-S        MC-D/S         MC-A

                                                                   SS-A    (AMCL)

              F9-S (STCR)

                                     CF-A  (STC)

No bro, no, I'm trying to replicate real life, I know that is impossible in a game.

I'm not trying to control every aspect of the game, in rl managers have at maximum 50% of control on what happens in the field, what I'm saying is simple, I just wanted to say to my Neymar that he can do whatever he want on the left flank without having he cut inside or going byline, understand this?

Neither winger or insider forward replicate this move, both will do the player or cut a lot, or stay wide a lot.

Also,I watch games in extended, So I see a lot of the moves, and is rare when they do this.

I don't need cheat tactics,my tactics works real fine, but I will try it,thanks.

[Maaka]

2 hours ago, masno said:

Lets say you have both (neymar and sané), I would definitelly say "neymar,you have freedom do try your best,you can cut,you can cross,do what you know" and sané "Run wide with the ball and cross".

 

[Maaka]

(above post)

And this you can do, you can assign Sané PIs so he will be a regular winger, and Neymar so that he can mostly cut inside, and also give him more freedom (to do what he, depending on his preferred moves etc., "wants").

[Mitja]

7 minutes ago, masno said:

No bro, no, I'm trying to replicate real life, I know that is impossible in a game.

I'm not trying to control every aspect of the game, in rl managers have at maximum 50% of control on what happens in the field, what I'm saying is simple, I just wanted to say to my Neymar that he can do whatever he want on the left flank without having he cut inside or going byline, understand this?

Neither winger or insider forward replicate this move, both will do the player or cut a lot, or stay wide a lot.

Also,I watch games in extended, So I see a lot of the moves, and is rare when they do this.

I don't need cheat tactics,my tactics works real fine, but I will try it,thanks.

don't forget to maximise the width settings for the full effect of 433..

I would play it on attacking/fluid, with lower tempo. other stuff I'm sure you will find the right balance..

[masno]

37 minutes ago, Mitja said:

don't forget to maximise the width settings for the full effect of 433..

I would play it on attacking/fluid, with lower tempo. other stuff I'm sure you will find the right balance..

I writed wrong, I'm not trying to replicate real life,just saw it now.

And now i'm feeling insulted, I already said " I know how to play the game", I really now, and I know how to create certain moves, I know how to create this Neymar move, but it doesn't happen to often, and by doesn't happen I'm saying 1 time after 6-7 games.

I know the instructions, what they do, and what aspects they affect, I know some right balances, I made Barça the most winner in the world only with their base, I know the game bro.

What I am saying is that the game sometimes lock you in certain instructions when you want it, not that I don't know how to play it.

[Mitja]

hahaha, I think you need a new chalenge in your career. (Barca is no fun) 

[masno]

10 minutes ago, Mitja said:

hahaha, I think you need a new chalenge in your career. (Barca is no fun) 

I made one team of the serie D on Brazil called "villa nova" became the best team in the world, I got a team called "Lanús" of argentina being the best too.
Made ajax the second best (I failed hard on the finals), made leicester of FM16 get to the semi-final of the champions on my first try. All of this without exploits, I love challenges, but I don't like certain things on the tactics system, just this.

[enigmatic]

Some of the instruction locks are a little weird and restrictive, and FM might have gone a little bit overboard with dubious naming choices

But most of them are common sense. Wingers don't have the option to sit narrower because the defining element of being a winger is they dribble the ball in wide areas. Anchor Men don't have the option to dribble or roam forward or hit long range shots because the defining element of being an anchor man is they sit deep and don't take risks. 

And it's a definite benefit that if I want my substitute to play as an attacking winger not an inside forward, I pull a dropdown to make him play winger rather than clicking through multiple tactical options from a long list. Pretty sure if a real life manager brings someone on to play as an attacking winger he doesn't have to go through a long list of instructions suggesting they dribble, get forward a lot, cross from the byline as much as possible, pass shorter than the defence and don't cut inside all the time anyway...

The really neat thing about the roles is the choice of roles and the highlight wheels that indicate who is most suited to them is broadly equivalent to what the AI makes decisions based on. I mean, in theory you could write a piece of logic which means the AI generally chooses to play right footed AMRs with good dribbling attributes as right sided players that stay wide and dribble a lot, and left footed AMRs who are better at finishing as inside forwards, but why not surface it and give humans and AI broadly similar choices?

[masno]

10 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Some of the instruction locks are a little weird and restrictive, and FM might have gone a little bit overboard with dubious naming choices

But most of them are common sense. Wingers don't have the option to sit narrower because the defining element of being a winger is they dribble the ball in wide areas. Anchor Men don't have the option to dribble or roam forward or hit long range shots because the defining element of being an anchor man is they sit deep and don't take risks. 

And it's a definite benefit that if I want my substitute to play as an attacking winger not an inside forward, I pull a dropdown to make him play winger rather than clicking through multiple tactical options from a long list. Pretty sure if a real life manager brings someone on to play as an attacking winger he doesn't have to go through a long list of instructions suggesting they dribble, get forward a lot, cross from the byline as much as possible, pass shorter than the defence and don't cut inside all the time anyway...

The really neat thing about the roles is the choice of roles and the highlight wheels that indicate who is most suited to them is broadly equivalent to what the AI makes decisions based on. I mean, in theory you could write a piece of logic which means the AI generally chooses to play right footed AMRs with good dribbling attributes as right sided players that stay wide and dribble a lot, and left footed AMRs who are better at finishing as inside forwards, but why not surface it and give humans and AI broadly similar choices?

Like I said before, I dont want to use a convencional winger/IF, I want to have someone that will do a little of both jobs.

Why we couldn't just give instructions for players and it save?

Like you could create your own role and put what instructions, what he need to do, where he need to be, If he is attacking or just a support, his creative freedom, etc. This would be a enormous thing for me.

I hate the role system because I can't say to every single player what to do especifically,like I said before, I can't create a singular move with the actual roles,in my opinion the laters fms didn't gave that freedom either (some players said some instructions were just placebo), but nowadays this could work, and would be a massive thing a little more freedom.