Counter-Attack Tickbox - Counter Intuitive?

[dannyfc]

I'm having a frustrating time attempting to implement counter-attacking football.

Ideally I strive for quick transitions, hitting the opposition once they've committed men forward. To do so I've tried, direct passing + quick tempo. However, two stumbling blocks, either;

1.) We spring forward too quickly.

I think this is a cause of the 'Counter-Attack' tick-box. Basically, we reclaim possession within our own half, and the entire team instantly bombs forward to catch the opposition out. Only, this leaves the man in possesion with little to no passing options, causing him to dither before being forced to pass backwards.

2.) The opposition get men behind the ball and we're left to impotent probing.

[shwayne]

One thing it might be worth trying is combining the 'retain possession' and 'pass into space' shouts. Hopefully it will encourage your players to launch counter-attacks by drawing the opposition out of position instead of just aimlessly launching the ball forward as soon as the opposition have it. However, I'd still leave counter attack ticked to encourage other players to get forward in support of this.

[tomtuck01]

Why have you felt the need to use the tickbox? Just set your strategy to counter attacking and it is done anyway. Rule of thumb is that unless you are absolutely sure what the sliders and tickboxes do, don't touch them.

[tajj 7]

Why have you felt the need to use the tickbox? Just set your strategy to counter attacking and it is done anyway. Rule of thumb is that unless you are absolutely sure what the sliders and tickboxes do, don't touch them.

I think the 'counter' mentality automatically ticks it doesn't it?

[tomtuck01]

Indeed it does. Using the tickbox yourself i can't understand.

[tajj 7]

Indeed it does. Using the tickbox yourself i can't understand.

Good point, I presumed he was using the 'counter' strategy but re-reading his post I've seen he's put direct passing on and a quick tempo so he must be changing the sliders.

[RTHerringbone]

Only, this leaves the man in possesion with little to no passing options, causing him to dither before being forced to pass backwards.

One possible work around to this is to play a different Strategy with a higher defensive line, which will in general terms move your players closer together.

It is in this scenario that you would then need to manually tick Counter Attack - which as a reminder just maxes out mentality for your players when the ME deems your side to be "on the attack".

A word of caution is that if you go for a Strategy like Control, then you have a high line and increased Pressing which isn't standard Counter play. That can be offset to a degree by Standing Off More, which will reduce that Pressing and Defensive Line a bit.

[thegooner]

One possible work around to this is to play a different Strategy with a higher defensive line, which will in general terms move your players closer together.

It is in this scenario that you would then need to manually tick Counter Attack - which as a reminder just maxes out mentality for your players when the ME deems your side to be "on the attack".

A word of caution is that if you go for a Strategy like Control, then you have a high line and increased Pressing which isn't standard Counter play. That can be offset to a degree by Standing Off More, which will reduce that Pressing and Defensive Line a bit.

Agree as i use Balanced+Control so also add the drop deeper shout as helps reduce the D line a bit more.

Other shouts i have found productive for a counter strategy are Clear Ball to Flanks, Hit Early Crosses, Pass into Space and Run at Defence as using 4231 these have proved very efficient.

[PeeKay]

The tick box, as explained to me, gives permission for all the players to rush forward when on a counter, ignoring some of their instructions. It sometimes can be seen in the ME when most of the team shoots pass ball carrier. Without the Counter-attack ticked the team will still counter but not against role instructions (high creative freedom can blur this) and only players that contribute in the attacking phase. A team will still counter given the opportunity but the counter-attack option forces the command a little bit more.

Like I said, this is how it was explained to me and I needed convincing but when you watch the match engine with the box ticked or un-ticked the difference can be seen.

[RTHerringbone]

Counter Attack makes the game go a bit "Keystone Cops". I like it.

[shaunwwfc]

Counter attack needs to be combined with a More Disciplined and stick to position approach IMO. Self explanatory really.

[thegooner]

Counter Attack makes the game go a bit "Keystone Cops". I like it.

Hahahahaha i have a vision of my players running around behind each other chasing the ball :-)

[agentvinz]

Why have you felt the need to use the tickbox? Just set your strategy to counter attacking and it is done anyway. Rule of thumb is that unless you are absolutely sure what the sliders and tickboxes do, don't touch them.

I always tick the box no matter what style/strategy etc I use since I don't see any real disadvantage in it, and I've scored some goals from counter with it.

Sometimes I want to control the game instead of sitting deep and waiting for the counter all the time, but I want to be able to counter too in case there's a opportunity so I always tick the box, and so far no real problem at all.

[Cleon]

I always tick the box no matter what style/strategy etc I use since I don't see any real disadvantage in it, and I've scored some goals from counter with it.

Sometimes I want to control the game instead of sitting deep and waiting for the counter all the time, but I want to be able to counter too in case there's a opportunity so I always tick the box, and so far no real problem at all.

You can't be paying much attention to what happens in the game then if you see no disadvantages.

Having the box ticked means that anytime the game classes you out number the opposition then all your players are allowed gungho mentality and the highest tempo and will disregard the instructions you've set.

I doubt you control games if you play this way.

[RTHerringbone]

This thread has made me start thinking too much again...

1. I was thinking about the dynamic nature of "Counter" - when the ME determines that the right conditions are met, your players will see Mentality and Tempo rocket.

Is this for ALL players, or just certain Roles, Positions or Lines?

2. This then made me think about dynamic things in the game, such as the Automatic Duty which essentially is determined by the Strategy you use.

Is this for ALL players, or just certain Roles, Positions or Lines?

I like the concept of the Counter but am just mulling over a few alternative ways to play the game with it enabled.

I don't actually know what Automatic Duty does across a whole team, and if someone can confirm that, I might have something new to overthink.

[Rashidi]

Been away from the forums too long, too much work irl plus a new home to buy/renovate...blah blah blah... in a nutshell and PaulC has actually answered this question before on the forums in case people want to go dig around....

Cleon's response is entirely accurate and its what PaulC alluded to, infact simply put for a specific period of time given certain conditions, your sliders/passing instruction all change. So yes the CA choice has an effect.

[RTHerringbone]

Good to see you back rashidi1.

Any chance you could answer my second question in post #15 please?

[Cleon]

A counter attack in FM is launched when a team gets the ball and there are less than X opposing players between the ball and their goal.

Ticking the counter attack box means that X is a higher value.

Once on counter attack, a team will play as if on highest mentality until the counter attack phase of play ends.

when a counter attack is instigated, the mentality will be considerd 20 and the forward runs setting moved up a notch ( if possible ) for each player during that attack.

Both quotes from PaulC.

[tajj 7]

Both quotes from PaulC.

Aren't there now only 3 settings for forward runs (or runs from deep)?

rarely, sometimes and often?

So even centre-backs and defensive set players who would be on rarely would move up to sometimes it would then be down to their decision making whether to join the attack?

This would be why counter attack works with a more controlled possession based tactics because it gives you two approaches to the game when in possession, one where you will be direct, play at high tempo to exploit spaces and overloads, and the more general one where you probe and look to engineer chances. If you are already playing a more direct high tempo game there is no need to tick counter attack as you are already attacking like this.

[Cleon]

Aren't there now only 3 settings for forward runs (or runs from deep)?

rarely, sometimes and often?

So even centre-backs and defensive set players who would be on rarely would move up to sometimes it would then be down to their decision making whether to join the attack?

This would be why counter attack works with a more controlled possession based tactics because it gives you two approaches to the game when in possession, one where you will be direct, play at high tempo to exploit spaces and overloads, and the more general one where you probe and look to engineer chances. If you are already playing a more direct high tempo game there is no need to tick counter attack as you are already attacking like this.

There has only ever been 3 settings for forward runs/runs from deep.

But no, what you mention is what the counter attack strategy offers. The actual counter attack tick option is different and not the same thing. When this is ticked it does what it says above and regardless, your players will attack when the requirements are met and the mentality/forward runs/tempo and passing settings will be overridden by the counter attack option.

[tajj 7]

There has only ever been 3 settings for forward runs/runs from deep.

But no, what you mention is what the counter attack strategy offers. The actual counter attack tick option is different and not the same thing. When this is ticked it does what it says above and regardless, your players will attack when the requirements are met and the mentality/forward runs/tempo and passing settings will be overridden by the counter attack option.

Surely relative to their starting values though?

when a counter attack is instigated, the mentality will be considerd 20 and the forward runs setting moved up a notch ( if possible ) for each player during that attack.

'move up a notch', so every single player would have the 'runs from deep sometimes' as a minimum in that phase, which means that every player could run forward?

It would also mean that if you already have a very attacking strategy with high tempo, direct passing and players who are already on runs from deep often it won't have much to overwrite?

[Cleon]

Surely relative to their starting values though?

Tempo, passing and mentality are all maxed out regardless of what they start as for that phase of play.

'move up a notch', so every single player would have the 'runs from deep sometimes' as a minimum in that phase, which means that every player could run forward?

Yups.

It would also mean that if you already have a very attacking strategy with high tempo, direct passing and players who are already on runs from deep often it won't have much to overwrite?

Well that's logical isn't it?

The closer you are to a maxed out tempo/passing/mentality then less there is to change, so the changes would be more minimal than lets say a defensive/standard approach and might be harder to see. But unless you play with the highest tempo/mentality/passing already then you should still notice the behaviour regardless of how minimal the actual changes was.

[tajj 7]

Tempo, passing and mentality are all maxed out regardless of what they start as for that phase of play.

Yups.

Well that's logical isn't it?

I'm still a little confused on this.

Bear with me here.

In the OP, one of the problems he highlighted was -

We spring forward too quickly.

I think this is a cause of the 'Counter-Attack' tick-box. Basically, we reclaim possession within our own half, and the entire team instantly bombs forward to catch the opposition out.

Now, does the 'runs from deep' go up 'a notch' as it says in Paul C's quote or does it automatically make every player go to 'often'?

Cos you said -

Tempo, passing and mentality are all maxed out regardless of what they start as for that phase of play.

Which is fine on the tempo, passing settings, however this runs section is getting me confused.

Say you have 2 DC's, who's normal instructions, their 'runs from deep' is 'rarely', with the CA ticked, when the X players number is met, does this change to 'sometimes' or 'often' for that counter attack phase?

What I'm trying to get at is that even in a counter attack you don't really want ALL you players making forward runs, especially if it is no help, as you will be susceptible to a counter counter.

So where the OP says his whole team bombs forward is that because his player roles are already too attacking or is it more to do with his strategy being too attacking so most of his players are already quite far up the pitch?

[Cleon]

Now, does the 'runs from deep' go up 'a notch' as it says in Paul C's quote or does it automatically make every player go to 'often'?

Cos you said -

It works like Paul says. The lad who you quoted was being a bit over the top with his remark as counter attack wouldn't make all his players do that when he regained possession in his own half. It would only work once the game classed it as a counter attack. So for that to happen he'd have to out number the opposition. No-one knows the exact numbers, but it's not that hard to see what triggers it in a game.

Which is fine on the tempo, passing settings, however this runs section is getting me confused.

Say you have 2 DC's, who's normal instructions, their 'runs from deep' is 'rarely', with the CA ticked, when the X players number is met, does this change to 'sometimes' or 'often' for that counter attack phase?

Sometimes if they players had rarely to start with.

What I'm trying to get at is that even in a counter attack you don't really want ALL you players making forward runs, especially if it is no help, as you will be susceptible to a counter counter.

It can leave you vulnerable yes. That's why imo people should choose the counter attack strategy instead as it offers more control overall.

So where the OP says his whole team bombs forward is that because his player roles are already too attacking or is it more to do with his strategy being too attacking so most of his players are already quite far up the pitch?

Without actually seeing his PKM's its hard to give a correct answer. It could be a case of both those. Although I do hint a bit of exaggeration is the line you quoted, because the player in possession would have passing options still as he would be instructed to move forward and pass longer to the other players.

I think the issues in the OP is a number of factors and mainly down to roles/duties not been set up in the correct manner for what he is trying to achieve. The reason why I think this is because he says his man gets caught in possession and has no passing options due to players making forward runs. Now if this really is the case, he claimed in the first sentence of his OP that he was trying to implement counter attacking football. So he should have set up the roles on his players to take advantage of this, but because he says the player on the ball has a lack of options this to me suggest his players are already too far up the pitch to begin with. There is no way the whole team would cause this issue, no way at all. It must be a set up issue above all else imo.

[tajj 7]

It works like Paul says. The lad who you quoted was being a bit over the top with his remark as counter attack wouldn't make all his players do that when he regained possession in his own half. It would only work once the game classed it as a counter attack. So for that to happen he'd have to out number the opposition. No-one knows the exact numbers, but it's not that hard to see what triggers it in a game.

Sometimes if they players had rarely to start with.

It can leave you vulnerable yes. That's why imo people should choose the counter attack strategy instead as it offers more control overall.

Without actually seeing his PKM's its hard to give a correct answer. It could be a case of both those. Although I do hint a bit of exaggeration is the line you quoted, because the player in possession would have passing options still as he would be instructed to move forward and pass longer to the other players.

I think the issues in the OP is a number of factors and mainly down to roles/duties not been set up in the correct manner for what he is trying to achieve. The reason why I think this is because he says his man gets caught in possession and has no passing options due to players making forward runs. Now if this really is the case, he claimed in the first sentence of his OP that he was trying to implement counter attacking football. So he should have set up the roles on his players to take advantage of this, but because he says the player on the ball has a lack of options this to me suggest his players are already too far up the pitch to begin with. There is no way the whole team would cause this issue, no way at all. It must be a set up issue above all else imo.

Thanks.

That confirms what I understood as to how the counter attack works and from what I have observed when my team have counter attacked. My assumption when I first read the OP was that he was either already too attacking in strategy or player roles.

[PeeKay]

What I'm trying to get at is that even in a counter attack you don't really want ALL you players making forward runs, especially if it is no help, as you will be susceptible to a counter counter.

I said the same thing when it was explained to me

Followed by "Really!!! I'm not going to be using that too often"

[dannyfc]

Interesting stuff, so theoretically, could I set-up a system based on fast, direct transitions without the tick-box? I was exaggerating my point somewhat in the OP, however quite frequently I have an advanced player win the ball and manage to get caught behind his own defensive line before releasing it.

Cleon you're right it might be a result of me tinkering with the default settings. I'm not a fan of vanilla 'Counter' strategy, as it's too slow and negative.

Here is how I'm set-up;

FB: S

FB: S

CB: D

CB: D

DLP: D

WM: A

BBM: S

IF: S

CF: S

AM: A

[Cleon]

Interesting stuff, so theoretically, could I set-up a system based on fast, direct transitions without the tick-box? I was exaggerating my point somewhat in the OP, however quite frequently I have an advanced player win the ball and manage to get caught behind his own defensive line before releasing it.

Cleon you're right it might be a result of me tinkering with the default settings. I'm not a fan of vanilla 'Counter' strategy, as it's too slow and negative.

Here is how I'm set-up;

FB: S

FB: S

CB: D

CB: D

DLP: D

WM: A

BBM: S

IF: S

CF: S

AM: A

I'm sorry but the counter strategy is not too slow and negative at all. Why do you say this? I did a massive thread about counter attacking football and I assure you it is not slow and negative. Again, if you are experiencing this then you've set it up wrong. You can tailor it to suit you, so you can be patient then spring a counter when one is on. Or you can set it up so you do relentless counter attacks with fast passing and transition phases.

I don't have much time for a detailed response atm as I'm using my phone. But your vision of how you want to play is not translated well onto the pitch via the roles/duties you've used. From the screenshot you've posted to me it looks like play is very 1 dimensional and movement will be very static.

Next time you are playing the game watch one of the matches in full. Then each time your side wins the ball back and is going to start an attack pause the game. Then take a look at the players positions and see who is too advanced, not joining in the attacks and get a real feel of the players positions and movement. Change the camera view several times if needs be so you can see it from all different angles.

[tajj 7]

I said the same thing when it was explained to me

Followed by "Really!!! I'm not going to be using that too often"

That was my worry too from how I read those quotes, however if your d-line is in the right place then some players will already be behind the ball when the counter attack is initiated, you would also hope that players decision making would come into play for those on the 'sometimes' runs form deep setting when the attack starts and would decide not to go forward.

I play the counter strategy generally, and it automatically has the counter attack ticked, from what I've seen watching my team attack on the counter the players seem to get the balance right. If your team already has quite a high line with offensive players then I presume it could overcommit.

Interesting stuff, so theoretically, could I set-up a system based on fast, direct transitions without the tick-box? I was exaggerating my point somewhat in the OP, however quite frequently I have an advanced player win the ball and manage to get caught behind his own defensive line before releasing it.

Cleon you're right it might be a result of me tinkering with the default settings. I'm not a fan of vanilla 'Counter' strategy, as it's too slow and negative.

Here is how I'm set-up;

FB: S

FB: S

CB: D

CB: D

DLP: D

WM: A

BBM: S

IF: S

CF: S

AM: A

The line that always comes out, which is appropriate here as well. If you don;t know what the sliders do, don't change them. IIRC Standard strategy doesn't tick the counter attack option for a reason.

The 'counter' strategy is not slow and negative unless you set it up to be like that. This is how I currently set up -

Plenty of attacking players, when the team counters they get the ball forward quickly and get numbers into the box. When not on the counter we attack more patiently and probe.