Tactics: Who understands them and who doesn't?

[Takamaru]

I usually pick up on things reasonably fast, but dispite playing the CM/FM games for years and years I still cannot for the life of me figure out the "success factors" of a tactic in these games.

I have usually ran into a successful tactic for each of the editions of the game, but this mostly just happened after trying and trying and trying and eventually getting lucky by accident.

So in short, I have created successful tactics but for the life of me I have no idea why or how...

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:

My turn: clap, clap, clap!

I've been arguing for the same thing since FM'05; you might enjoy - if you haven't read them already:

In-character helpful suggestions,

.

New Media Items and Improved Feedback,

and

Metaphysical Angst in FM: Complexity and Uncertainty in Management </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the links to the post. Interesting reads but sadly it seems each year the same frustrations and arguments get made about tactics, ambiguity and lack of feedback and still get ignored by SI.

I don't understand why everything has to remain so cryptic all the time, it wears thin rather quickly. More information is not about being able to win all the time, it's about feeling more part of the game and getting enjoyment out of your wins and losses and learning as you go along. Now it just feels like tedious hard work and that I need a PhD in Football Tactics just to derive a little enjoyment.

Incidently my mate has already given up on FM08, it's just too unfriendly to new players he thinks and I'd have to agree with him.

[Amaroq]

Yeah - as you'll have read, I suspect we may be in danger of losing the *next* generation of FM players.

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:

Yeah - as you'll have read, I suspect we may be in danger of losing the *next* generation of FM players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes...it seems both old time gamers and potential new fans are getting alienated from the series. Tactically FM needs to be made more accessable, this doesnt mean dumbing it down though.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:

My turn: clap, clap, clap!

I've been arguing for the same thing since FM'05; you might enjoy - if you haven't read them already:

In-character helpful suggestions,

.

New Media Items and Improved Feedback,

and

Metaphysical Angst in FM: Complexity and Uncertainty in Management </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the links to the post. Interesting reads but sadly it seems each year the same frustrations and arguments get made about tactics, ambiguity and lack of feedback and still get ignored by SI.

I don't understand why everything has to remain so cryptic all the time, it wears thin rather quickly. More information is not about being able to win all the time, it's about feeling more part of the game and getting enjoyment out of your wins and losses and learning as you go along. Now it just feels like tedious hard work and that I need a PhD in Football Tactics just to derive a little enjoyment.

Incidently my mate has already given up on FM08, it's just too unfriendly to new players he thinks and I'd have to agree with him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good and thoughtful reads indeed.

I think the problem is SI- they know the game inside out and therefore do not see these issues.

To see the extent of this you only need to look at what Miles says here:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4162007273/p/2

"we don't think FM08 is a disaster."

"FM08 is the best game we've ever made, and I'm really enjoying playing it."

This worries me, as imo FM08 was released far too early and in an unforgivable state considering the known closing down issue that didnt have a patch ready for release day. Plus considering this release doesnt exactly have any exciting or innovative new features that add to the gameplay this doesnt bode well for future releases if this is SIs idea of the best yet.

[Barnzy]

I clearly dont understand the tactics, I ask my team to do certain things and then watch the 2d game and get differant results - its all trial and error for me. I want to keep position so think slow tempo short passing, I watch the match engine as all my players ignore this!

[Guest]

hi guys, i have one question. Is there any possibility to let assistant manager control first team matches (not only friendly). I wanna speed up game becouse of my tactic of buying young prospective players to later stages of THA game.

tx a lot

[Fitzer2007]

I mentioned this on a similar thread earlier, I find the older I get the less time I'm having to play the game and in turn SI are making the tactics more time consuming. I have tried some of my favorite tactics from 07 with no luck and to be honest all my own creations have been a disaster.

I have started using other peoples tactics and trying to tweak them but unfortunetly trying to maintain consistency is a problem, and when you only have a few hours a week to play, it can get frustrating.

Although I have said this in a few places some peopl seem to love the more indept tactics etc, just unfortunetly for me I can't seem to make head nor tail of them.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by macko11:

hi guys, i have one question. Is there any possibility to let assistant manager control first team matches (not only friendly). I wanna speed up game becouse of my tactic of buying young prospective players to later stages of THA game.

tx a lot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just go on holiday.

[thebigman1985]

excellent thread

i especially enjoyed power mongers diagrams as this is a way more intuitive method to get the best out of players, and gives player much more of an understanding of what the player is hoping to do

another issue, is whay cant players have farrows and sarrows?

what about box to box midfielders?

adjust bars and sliders into factors of 20 isnt cutting it any more

i truely hope si has some majot changes and ideas for the next fm

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fitzer2007:

I have started using other peoples tactics and trying to tweak them but unfortunetly trying to maintain consistency is a problem, and when you only have a few hours a week to play, it can get frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there are far more people downloading and using other peoples tactics simply because tactics and the match engine are so difficult to understand.

I think the amount of people who fully understand tactics and derive enjoyment from them in their current incarnation are very small indeed.

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thebigman1985:

excellent thread

i especially enjoyed power mongers diagrams as this is a way more intuitive method to get the best out of players, and gives player much more of an understanding of what the player is hoping to do

another issue, is whay cant players have farrows and sarrows?

what about box to box midfielders?

adjust bars and sliders into factors of 20 isnt cutting it any more

i truely hope si has some majot changes and ideas for the next fm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes tactics and the analysis of them could be improved so much more but it seems SI has no intention of improving this aspect of the game further. CM4 was a long time ago.

I'm glad you liked my little enhanced tactic diagram, that's just one way I feel the tactic engine could be improved with. I might try diagraming my currently used tactic and see how it comes across using the same concepts.

[jwarner]

I'd consider myself something of a FM07 veteran, having taken several clubs from the conference to the premiership and read extensively through the tactical discussions for that game. I never felt like I truly understood the match engine, but with a little time and a lot of tweaking I could generally get a decent run of success with any club, big or small.

With that said, I have to admit I just can't make heads or tails of FM08's match engine. I'm using a small team in a small league, just wallowing in midtable, and I can't figure out how to develop a tactic that gives any kind of consistent success.

I can't figure out if I need to play more attacking or less, more direct or shorter passes, whether I should man-mark or not, how deep the defensive line should be, etc.

I feel like I'm trying to crack a code, not play a game.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fitzer2007:

I have started using other peoples tactics and trying to tweak them but unfortunetly trying to maintain consistency is a problem, and when you only have a few hours a week to play, it can get frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there are far more people downloading and using other peoples tactics simply because tactics and the match engine are so difficult to understand.

I think the amount of people who fully understand tactics and derive enjoyment from them in their current incarnation are very small indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- although I do use my own tactics that have just won me the MLS double, I cant really say that I find this area enjoyable.

For me the issues are:

1) The Interface is too abstract- give us direct options to tell players what to do.

2) Too many notches on sliders- with 20 either each notch has too much effect so that you notice the change or not enough, either way its a pretty unsatisfactory solution and one that isnt really open to allow the player to make decisions that will do what they want it to do.

3) SIs idea of some tactical conventions doesnt always seem to be in line with real life- for example defensive line; apparently this only comes into effect when you lose possession (some even say when the ball enters your half). This is ridiculous as it essentially means that its impossible to hold a genuinely deep line.

4) For all its complexity the tactical options are actually not powerful enough- we are unable to set width for different areas of the team, positioning of players is inflexible, we cannot directly tell players to do certain things (eg overlap) and have to either work out how to do very simple things, or hope that the match engine reads what we are trying to do.

[llama3]

ok here is how i create tactics, i think how i want them to play and i make the players do it, if i want my full backs to overlap i set them to lots of forward runs, just think about how you want your side to play.

[Sir_Liam]

My main problems with the tactics on FM are the amount of slider settings. As others have said 22 options for mentality is just daft. What manager says "I want you to play 16 out of 22 today" in their team talk?

What I would like to see is a return to around 5 settings on each slider, e.g. ultra defensive, defensive, balanced, attacking, all-out attack. If you were setting your team to attacking, it'd feel far more realistic than telling them to play 16 out of 22.

Set-pieces are also poorly implemented, and a set-piece designer is something I'd like to see in the future. The ability to position your players where you want them on corners would be very nice rather than the vague descriptions we have at present.

Then there's the lack of tactical training that has also been mentioned. At the moment training only seems to affect individual skills. In the future FM should include tactical training as that is a huge part of football.

Finally there's feedback. Personally I think I understand how the tactics on FM work, but a lot don't, so some ass man feedback would be a very nice addition. The crucial bit is that the ass man doesn't tell you exactly what to change, rather what affect its having on the pitch.

[Powermonger]

Reading in the other thread about who will play FM Live or not, Ov commented that FM and FML share the same match engine. I wonder if this translates to SI even more reluctant to develop tactics further?

I get a sinking feeling tactics aren't going to be improved any time soon

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sir_Liam:

My main problems with the tactics on FM are the amount of slider settings. As others have said 22 options for mentality is just daft. What manager says "I want you to play 16 out of 22 today" in their team talk? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes this gets confusing and it's very hard to tell what one increment in a slider actually does.

'Creative Freedom' is a prime example, it's bad enough that this setting is ambiguous on what it does match engine wise, but what do the full range of the setting actually achieve at each increment? Out of all the sliders 'Creative Freedom' is the one I hate the most.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then there's the lack of tactical training that has also been mentioned. At the moment training only seems to affect individual skills. In the future FM should include tactical training as that is a huge part of football. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a major area that needs improvement, there doesn't seem to be any logical or direct link between tactics and training. As you stated training is just used to improve individuals, it doesn't seem to be the glue that gets the team playing to your tactics. If there is, then FM does a good job at masking it.

Main points for me in improving tactics are:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>A better tactical interface with less ambiguity.

<LI>More statistics and match analysis tools to help analyse tactics and match performance.

<LI>Closer tie between tactics and training.

<LI>More input from the coaching staff about match performances.

All we need now is for SI to at least respond to our concerns and throw us a bone for once.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger:

Reading in the other thread about who will play FM Live or not, Ov commented that FM and FML share the same match engine. I wonder if this translates to SI even more reluctant to develop tactics further?

I get a sinking feeling tactics aren't going to be improved any time soon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then they will start to lose customers- as imo the CM team seem more prepared to innovate than the FM guys, probably as they have nothing to lose and ground to gain.

It actually made me chuckle slightly that Ov suggested that FM will benefit from FMLs almost constant evolution of the match engine.

Well if the state of the FM08 match engine (in particular the original boxed version) is an example of how FM will benefit from FML then I say keep FML bloody well away from FM.

[Imperius]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chandaman:

Morale? Better weather? Worse weather? A majority of home fixtures vs. away fixtures? Team talks? Media comments? A couple of new contracts signed?

All of the above? None? We normally have no idea.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should have called those “falsificationsâ€, then you could have pretended to be using the philosophy of Karl Popper! You missed a trick there! Follow that with ten pages of pole-up-the-backside pretentious bilge and most of ‘em in these parts would be hailing you as a guru.

You’re right, of course, about how daft the translation of real world tactics to the game is. The assistant manager thing won’t happen, unfortunately. I’d be surprised if Si themselves could actually tell you why something is going wrong on the field in terms of your tactical settings. All they can reasonably do is tweak away until it seems like reasonable things are happening and a passable attempt at recreating a match is played. They clearly can’t limit the parameters of the sliders etc to maintain sanity on the field, otherwise you wouldn’t get matches in FM8 that have “goal attempts†by the end that look like basketball scores. Programming a tool to tell you why your sliders etc weren’t effective would be the stuff of science fiction for them, I fear.