[Poll] Do you think FM should have difficulty levels in the future?

[IMT]

There already is plenty of difficulty levels, you will find managing United with past experiance of International is easy setting, whilst managing Northwich with sunday league reputation is hard, and varying levels inbetween.

[ElDani]

Well, that's what I was talking about in my initial post: it completely depends on HOW EXACTLY a difficulty system would be implemented in the game.

I would think it completely unacceptable if SI were to do it by enhancing either my own or my opponent's squad strength, which would in the end play out in the match engine and could possibly create havoc. On the other hand, I'd have no trouble at all, if the game would give the player controlled club either more or less money. In the end I believe that most difficulties someone has playing the game can be solved with more money: ask the board to raise the standards of facilities or build a bigger stadium, buy a new player, raise the wage limit. That's a feature that can be done a number of ways that are easy to implement (just think how easy it is to insert a simple multiplier for certain values) and nothing at all would change a thing for the majority of other players that aren't interested in (using) that feature.

[grep]

Please do not use this thread like the other one in a manipulating way.

I would have just stated the same towards the againsters. ( is that a word ? )

[RBKalle]

There already is plenty of difficulty levels, you will find managing United with past experiance of International is easy setting, whilst managing Northwich with sunday league reputation is hard, and varying levels inbetween.

Oh not this again!

Seriosuly... what's "more difficult"?

Top Managers in FM use exactly the same criteria to judge players as their Sunday League counterparts... They are only a bit more accurate but they're likely to spend good money on players with high PA despite awful mental traits.

I think you, and many others, are missing the point.

"Difficult" doesn't mean "how long before I can win some silverware"

"Difficult" should mean "how GOOD I must be in order to meet my season expectations".

Be it winning the Treble, getting promoted or avoiding relegation to non-league, there must be a different level of "skills" needed, depending on the magnitude of the task at hand.

In reality a job at United would require a lot of ability just to keep morale up and egos at bay. Then the tactical side might be relatively easier, as talented players don't need extremely high guidance all the time.

But in FM you can be a total newbie and unless you decide to play 2-2-6 you're likely to achieve moderate success at a Top Club.

On the other hand at Northwich you'd have to face a whole different array of problems... fitness and ****-poor technique for starters, then the challenge of getting 11 banana-footed amateurs to play something resembling football.

Less pressure indeed, but almost a hopeless challenge.

But in FM if you're competent enough and know your LL you can just get promoted every other year all the way to the Championship.

See, the goals are different but the fact of the matter is still you don't need to be a Special One to succeed. The human factor is decisive in evaluating transfers and lineups.

The AI just follows a set of rigid-ish rules, so a PA160 player will ALWAYS appeal to the AI managers, regardless of his putrid mental attributes or of his terrible personality.

IMO the "the game is more or less difficult if you pick so and so" answer is inaccurate and kind of moot here.

Picking Man U or FC United will just dictate HOW LONG it'll take you to eventually win the EPL and the CL... it's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN.

A good hint at the game difficulty being the same in the end...

[x42bn6]

If it were "easy" to play as Manchester United with International reputation, then why are the Glazers terrified of what happens when Fergie retires? If it were easy in-game, it should be easy in reality, but this implies that you could snap up any stupid idiot and make him United manager and he would continue the results Fergie has got over the years.

It should be harder to play as Manchester United with an International reputation than No Pressure FC.

[KUBI]

To make the whole game more challenging without making it frustrating is the key point. I don't think that the game has to reflect reality 1:1. It should be possible to win titles with clubs, which would never win titles in real football. When I say it should be possible it does not mean it should happen all the time. I would also like to see chairmans who sack their managers after 10 years, just because they think it's time for fresh ideas.

There is another demand on the other scale for years now: The option that you can't get sacked as manager. Complete unrealistic but probably something to consider when the AI becomes more challenging in futur releases (without difficulty levels).

[RBKalle]

If it were "easy" to play as Manchester United with International reputation, then why are the Glazers terrified of what happens when Fergie retires? If it were easy in-game, it should be easy in reality, but this implies that you could snap up any stupid idiot and make him United manager and he would continue the results Fergie has got over the years.

It should be harder to play as Manchester United with an International reputation than No Pressure FC.

I didn't mean it's "so easy every idiot could do it" in real life...

But you'll agree that, merely on the technical/tactical side of things, top-EPL players will need less "schooling" than random amateurs...

In FM if you're a total newbie managing a Top Club all you have to do is selecting the Best 11, PES-style, and then sitting back trying to interfere as little as possible.

At No-Pressure FC you can't do the same because it'll be hard enough just fielding a "best 11", so you couldn't just let the players play their game.

My point was: both Top Clubs and LL Clubs have their share of unique challenges, both in real life and in FM. But in FM that doesn't really make a difference because the AI still uses the same set of "rules", whether it's Mourinho or Joe Random. So the game is as easy or as hard as it can be, regardless of where you're managing.

[x42bn6]

We have no idea if anything is maxed or not, we have no idea if there is ANY room to improve the AI based on the available technology to the standard user. There isnt a single game out there with challengin AI, not one that doesnt use cheats to make the AI smarter or harder to beat.

Chess bots?

Even Halo's AI was pretty good (how they were able to use the environment as cover and in tactics, and reacting to other events happening to teammates.

Apparently, Killzone 2's AI managed to pass the Turing Test, too, and that's several years old.

[KUBI]

Chess can be calculated. FM is trying to simulate human behaviour, that's complete different. There are two difficult tasks. AI managers should act smarter AND they should react on how human managers and all the other AI managers are playing the game. That's very complex and can't be done with a "level 1" "level2" approach.

[milnerpoint]

Chess bots?

Even Halo's AI was pretty good (how they were able to use the environment as cover and in tactics, and reacting to other events happening to teammates.

Apparently, Killzone 2's AI managed to pass the Turing Test, too, and that's several years old.

Chess has a set limit on the number of possibilities for each move which is completely different to FM.

Halo's AI was good up to a point, its not hard to out do the AI in Halo it follows very basic patterns that are easy to beat. The game only gets harder when they introduce handicaps and AI advantages, less bullets, more AI damage ect.

I completed Killzone 2 in a week, never found the AI a challenge at all, but i do play alot of FPS games so i am quite experienced with them.

[x42bn6]

Chess has a set limit on the number of possibilities for each move which is completely different to FM.

Does it matter if it's not similar to FM? You said there isn't a single challenging AI out there (not mentioning it had to be similar to FM).

Having said that, FM has a finite tree as well. If the AI uses the tactics creator framework, it can change the mentality of the squad, use shouts, change a player's role, and so on - a finite number of options.

Here's one that's more similar - a custom Starcraft AI that does very well against a former Starcraft professional champion:

- and there are superior AI bots than EISBot, such as Overmind.

[milnerpoint]

Sorry i should have realised your reason for quoting me was really to argue semantics, Barside was right i am a n00b for not learning.

[Guest]

Sorry i should have realised your reason for quoting me was really to argue semantics, Barside was right i am a n00b for not learning.

..but you're learning now. . X42bn6 does like to bait his hook with the chess AI statement.

[x42bn6]

Sorry i should have realised your reason for quoting me was really to argue semantics, Barside was right i am a n00b for not learning.

Would Starcraft not fit a similar game to FM? As in it has a lot more options for a user to perform as opposed to Chess?

[x42bn6]

..but you're learning now. . X42bn6 does like to bait his hook with the chess AI statement.

It's not a semantics argument. milnerpoint said:

There isnt a single game out there with challengin AI, not one that doesnt use cheats to make the AI smarter or harder to beat. FPS games the harder the setting the more damage AI guns do and the less your do to them, [...]

He mentioned "single game" without suggesting it needed to be "similar" to FM (without defining what "similar" was, too) and then went on to talk about FPS games.

So apologies if I for some reason didn't realise he was talking about "similar" games to FM, given that in the context of that paragraph, milnerpoint appeared to be talking about games in general. Hence my usage of Chess.

[moon_goat]

If he's talking about similar games to FM, could you please list all of them besides other FM's and the Champ Manager series? I can't think of any myself

And the Chess bots are some of the most sophisticated and challenging AI around, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous - as is the idea of having difficulty levels in a game like FM.

[markyosullivan]

Strictly against it

I feel the same way.

[jdrawmer]

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of FM'ers who on one hand claim "it's a simulation! Simulations don't need difficulty levels!" and then keep on playing and succeeding in unrealistic scenarios like "win the CL with Charlton" or "lead Bromsgrove to EPL".

See, the thing is: if it was an actual simulation the best you could ever dream to achieve with Charlton would be becoming a respetable mid/bottom-table side in EPL. And with a random BS club you'd be lucky and good to make an appearence in League One every now and then...

Instead in FM, even by using the laughably penalizing (and unrealistic?) LLM rules, there's still a fair chance of you achieving whatever absurd goal you've set for your sunday league club.. It'll take 15 to 20 years but it'll STILL be possible... Basically all you need is a lucky break in a competition to get some extra money, then once you're part of the professional scene it's just a matter of time.

Is it realistic? No it's not, but that doesn't seem to bother many FM'ers... au contraire, they just love it.

So it's not fair at all to give the usual "pick City if you want it easy" answer, because the game is STILL easy no matter where you start... The only factor that changes depending where you start is the amount of years it'll take you to start winning and dominating.

Think about it... The only way to keep the game challenging is resorting to self-sabotage!!!

The whole "don't use players search, don't sign players you haven't scouted, play without visible attributes, change your corners settings to something absurd so you won't score" set of additional rules is a sign the game is indeed too easy no matter on which rung of the football ladder you are.

Seriously, if I'm supposed/expected to go out of my way to make my game harder by using some convoluted tricks, then the game isn't that difficult or realistic.

So while I'm completely against an AI-cheat sort of difficulty level, I still think FM is in need of a radical change in terms of AI in the usual and already infamous areas of squad building, transfer and talent development.

Until then, there's little to say or to do... But a bit of a choice in terms of negotiations, morale and form would be appreciated.

Let's say at Hard level Clubs, Managers and Players reputation increase at a 0.5 rate, compared to Normal's 1.0 (the current one) and Easy's 1.5

That way the football world would still perceive your Sunday League Fatasses as a flash in the pan and/or as a small dot on the map of football even after a couple of lucky promotions instead of suddenly embracing your club.

Ditto for transfers... players and agents will be more picky (reputation again...) and you won't be able to lure semi-top players to unlikely destinations just because you have enough cash to pay their wage

Ok so are you suggesting that 'Legendary' difficulty literally doesn't allow you to become any better than a bottom/mid table EPL team? If so, what would be the point in playing the game on that difficulty anyway? The fun of the game for the die hards is to challenge yourself further each time, in trying to build a progressively lesser club to glory. I feel that's more than enough

[alexyfoot]

Ok so are you suggesting that 'Legendary' difficulty literally doesn't allow you to become any better than a bottom/mid table EPL team? If so, what would be the point in playing the game on that difficulty anyway? The fun of the game for the die hards is to challenge yourself further each time, in trying to build a progressively lesser club to glory. I feel that's more than enough

Talk about yourself, not everyone. I personally would prefer to win EPL with Bolton after 4-5 seasons of hard work, than to win CL after 2-3 with no effort from me.

[jdrawmer]

Talk about yourself, not everyone. I personally would prefer to win EPL with Bolton after 4-5 seasons of hard work, than to win CL after 2-3 with no effort from me.

I think you've missed my point - my reply was in response to RBKalle who stated that in real life, taking a team like charlton to the heights of winning champions leagues and premier leagues in succession would not be possible, and my point is that, why would anybody bother to play the game on a 'legendary' difficulty, if it meant it was literally like real life, where you control a team like charlton, and you have NO chance of actually achieving anythign in teams of top level trophies.

Your example is what i'm talking about, and is what I highlighted in my post... Die hards take progressively 'lesser' teams (i.e. you might achieve your goals with bolton, then try another career with Norwich, or a championship team etc), to glory. That is the difficulty level of the game and it doesn't need to be changed.

[alexyfoot]

I think you've missed my point - my reply was in response to RBKalle who stated that in real life, taking a team like charlton to the heights of winning champions leagues and premier leagues in succession would not be possible, and my point is that, why would anybody bother to play the game on a 'legendary' difficulty, if it meant it was literally like real life, where you control a team like charlton, and you have NO chance of actually achieving anythign in teams of top level trophies.

Your example is what i'm talking about, and is what I highlighted in my post... Die hards take progressively 'lesser' teams (i.e. you might achieve your goals with bolton, then try another career with Norwich, or a championship team etc), to glory. That is the difficulty level of the game and it doesn't need to be changed.

Die-hards do it as currently this is the only thing close to a challenge in the game. Trust me, if it was hard playing with a team like Arsenal, people would love to play with them. In the current format it isn't and that is why people tend to choose lesser teams. If you want to play like you do now, don't choose your so called legendary but something a tad easier so your long term game can progress faster.

and...we are not saying do it so that it is impossible to progress, just do it so it is harder than now!

[neutral]

should have it; less ppl will moaning when they losing to east sterling using man city, or losing to man city using east sterling...

[RBKalle]

I think you've missed my point - my reply was in response to RBKalle who stated that in real life, taking a team like charlton to the heights of winning champions leagues and premier leagues in succession would not be possible, and my point is that, why would anybody bother to play the game on a 'legendary' difficulty, if it meant it was literally like real life, where you control a team like charlton, and you have NO chance of actually achieving anythign in teams of top level trophies.

Your example is what i'm talking about, and is what I highlighted in my post... Die hards take progressively 'lesser' teams (i.e. you might achieve your goals with bolton, then try another career with Norwich, or a championship team etc), to glory. That is the difficulty level of the game and it doesn't need to be changed.

Well then it's about time to stop dropping the "it's a simulation!" bomb every time someone suggests non-traditional additions to the game...

We want realism: fine, then you could need like 10 years of hard work and a lot of luck to win the Carling Cup with Charlton while having managed to establish the club at a respectable mid-table EPL level.

We want a reality-based fun game: then the level is just about right.

Why would anybody play a game where you already know you're gonna hit a glass ceiling sooner or later? Because it's realistic

I'm surprised there are so many FM-gurus, tactical superexperts, LLM legends and, generally speaking, successful and seasoned managers who seem to be so against an OPTION that could make their brilliance shine even brighter!

What would be better than managing to turn Everton into a regular CL side? Or Wigan into consistent contenders for the EL zone?

Seriously, at the level the game is now and with it being more or less a slightly tweaked data update, almost every semi-seasoned FM player can just take charge at his favourite mid-table club and challenge for the title in 1-2 seasons. Or can lead a random League Two side to EPL in a very very short time, probably not with 3 straight promotions, but let's say 5 years is a reasonable time for a "triple jump" in FM201x.

So the question is: if we're so good, why should be afraid of an actual challenge?

Would it be frustrating? Sure, and I can see how managing the same mid-table club for 5 seasons with little chance of ever improving the club's status isn't for everyone, and I can definitely understand many would find it pointless.

Still I can't help but thinking of how much more rewarding and "meaningful" landing an EL/CL-spot with said club would be.