Attack minded defenders and defensively minded attackers

[LedZep]

Of late I have been reading a few posts about mentality and mentality distribution systems. I've tried them all and with mixed success; but recently a silly idea came to mind. What if I were to invert the mentality system so that my centre backs and full backs would be allotted attacking mentalities while my attacking players would be given defensive mentalities.I thought I'd try it on my Tottenham save for a laugh not really expecting much from it, but oh boy, did a learn a thing or two.

With attacking mentalities your centre backs play a more aggressive game coming forward to head clear balls you wouldn't ordinarily expect them to, winning the ball from opposing players with aplomb and playing some nice attacking passes to your midfield players.

With defensive mentalities your midfielders adopt a more conservative approach to the game, play safe square and backwards balls until they see something is on, then they play some supreme killer balls.

Not only this but they get more shots on target from range, your strikers are more composed in front of goal and you get a higher number of through balls played successfully thean you would if your attacking players had more attacking mentalities.

Don't believe me? Try it for yourself. I've been playing with an inverted mentality system for half a season now with Tottenham and we play some gorgeous stuff. Go on, do it invert the system.

[sekor]

Very interesting, can you post some screen ?

I want to see your stats. Do you play control football and slow build up ?

[lucatonix]

I remember reading somewhere a thread where someone else did the same thing mentality wise and was surprised by the results If I remember correctly they had similar results. This was back on FM09 so would be really hard to find it again.

[Tidd19]

I'm intrigued, think I'll be giving this a go with my barcelona team. You make the midfield sound just like barcas should be.

[LedZep]

Unfortunately I won't be able to post any screenies for a while as I'm on holiday in the Sudan and my laptop is back in London. But rest assured I will Be posting them ASAP. As for my approach I set everything straight down the middle, Tempo at 10, DLine at 10, Width at 10 and Time Wasting at 10.

[SFraser]

This idea can work very well.

Like all footballing strategies though it is important to know why it can work. In terms of positioning your players will play closer together, making it easier to find each other. In terms of play your defenders will look to get the ball forward quickly and aggressively while your advanced players will look to play careful and considered football.

I use a reduced mentality for my lone striker compared to my attacking midfielders. The idea here is for my lone striker to play slightly less aggressive football in his more isolated position, bringing deeper and more direct players into play.

In general if you want players to take risks and create chances you give them a higher mentality. If you want players to play more intelligently and "play the situation" you give them a reduced mentality. I would always give my wingers and playmaker(s) a high mentality as these players are the ones I want taking players on or looking for the attacking pass, regardless of where they tend to position themselves and play. You will not get many defence ripping throughballs from a playmaker with a low mentality.

[LedZep]

Well said, SFraser. However I find that when your playmaker is in possession of the ball and allowed time and space and he does have options ahead of him, when instructed to TTB often he will indeed play a nice defence splitting ball, although maybe not with as much frequency as the would do with a higher mentality.

[LedZep]

Oh, one other thing SFraser but from what I have seen of Strikers with defensive mentalities the seem to be more composed in front of goal. I suspect that this is because the safer option when one-on-one is to try and tear the back of the net with a shot, but I may be wrong. Would you care to shed some light on this?

[Bebetu]

I think u are right about strikers being more composed in front of goal but dunno if its because of team mentality or because of their individual mentality.

[aderow]

Good stuff led. I totally agree.

I remember the day when I noticed that when I lowered the mentalities of my attackers and midfielders, they made better decisions. And that has changed the way that I play FM.

[AcidBurn]

I like to download tactics and take a look at how they are set up. I have noticed quite a few tactics on FM10 and a few on FM11 that have both strikers set with a defensive mentality these tactics seem pretty successful and the strikers score lots of goals as well. I was wondering why this works and this thread has put forward some good reasons why it does work.

[Cleon]

This idea can work very well.

Like all footballing strategies though it is important to know why it can work. In terms of positioning your players will play closer together, making it easier to find each other. In terms of play your defenders will look to get the ball forward quickly and aggressively while your advanced players will look to play careful and considered football.

I use a reduced mentality for my lone striker compared to my attacking midfielders. The idea here is for my lone striker to play slightly less aggressive football in his more isolated position, bringing deeper and more direct players into play.

In general if you want players to take risks and create chances you give them a higher mentality. If you want players to play more intelligently and "play the situation" you give them a reduced mentality. I would always give my wingers and playmaker(s) a high mentality as these players are the ones I want taking players on or looking for the attacking pass, regardless of where they tend to position themselves and play. You will not get many defence ripping throughballs from a playmaker with a low mentality.

I tend to play people in 'the hole' with a defensive mentality so they play less aggressive and become isolated. This allows them to dictate play a lot more and tends to draw the opposition out of defence to try and pick him up. This leaves big holes to exploit. I think I did a thread on it for FM10 where I had my AMC score 55 goals in 40 games or something simliar.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm intrigued Cleon. Could you point me in the direction of that thread? Cheers.

[Cleon]

I'm intrigued Cleon. Could you point me in the direction of that thread? Cheers.

I'm trying to find it now, but it looks like a lot of the FM10 threads have been deleted from the forums.

I'm sure it was this http://www.community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=185681 but its gone.

[crouchaldinho]

That's a shame Cleon.

I was looking for an old tactical thread just the other day and realised it had been deleted. Disappointed with this really as I think all of the good tactical threads should be kept and archived, regardless of how old they are, because there is some very good stuff in them!

[macca72]

That's a shame Cleon.

I was looking for an old tactical thread just the other day and realised it had been deleted. Disappointed with this really as I think all of the good tactical threads should be kept and archived, regardless of how old they are, because there is some very good stuff in them!

Agree totally, massive shame. I'm trying (very hard) but failing to create a solid 4-2-3-1 and this type of advice is gold dust these days. Cleon, any chance you could share your thoughts again on supporting AMC's / AMC & striker combinations ?

[Cleon]

That's a shame Cleon.

I was looking for an old tactical thread just the other day and realised it had been deleted. Disappointed with this really as I think all of the good tactical threads should be kept and archived, regardless of how old they are, because there is some very good stuff in them!

I was under the impression that everything in the tactics bible would be left alone, it seems that isn't the case though. I'm disappointed too as I did a lot of guides that would still be useful because nothing has really changed in how tactics work for many years. Sure we've had new additions but all the principles of tactic building is the same. I'll try and see if I have posted it elsewhere, hopefully I will have.

Agree totally, massive shame. I'm trying (very hard) but failing to create a solid 4-2-3-1 and this type of advice is gold dust these days. Cleon, any chance you could share your thoughts again on supporting AMC's / AMC & striker combinations ?

If I'm not mistaken it was a 4-2-3-1 that I am referring to above. So if I can find it elsewhere I will let you know. I think you posted in the thread actually and I gave you some input on your own system.

[macca72]

If I'm not mistaken it was a 4-2-3-1 that I am referring to above. So if I can find it elsewhere I will let you know. I think you posted in the thread actually and I gave you some input on your own system.

Quite very possibly, apologies for the poor memory !

[Cleon]

This might be of use to you Macca, I'll post a direct link as the info was on here before anyway http://www.playfootballmanager.com/topic/creating-a-tactic-from-the-beginning-36

It was also 41 goals in 53 games Crouchaldino my bad the settings should all be in the link above

[aderow]

Hey Ledzep quick question.

When you gave your defenders attacking mentality did you also increase their closing down as well?

And did you play with a high defensive line also?

[d2024p]

Played this with great success in FM07 - defenders became battlers. Forwards became unplayable as they'd get the ball and knock it around beautifully in front of the opposition defense, bringing midfeilders into play etc.

[PGB_SPURS_FM09]

Been trying this but i also would like to know if the closing down was adjusted too?

[andrjam]

Cleon , I think I recall that thread , you were managing Sheffield United or liverpool using a 4231 formation setting the AMC to around 5 clicks from the left Im sure the amc had a lower mentality than both the centerbacks

[ZdlR]

Cleon , I think I recall that thread , you were managing Sheffield United or liverpool using a 4231 formation setting the AMC to around 5 clicks from the left Im sure the amc had a lower mentality than both the centerbacks

I second that. Remember reading it myself. It made me think Cleon was mad at the time, but I've since seen the effect it can have first hand.

I don't think the TC goes nearly far enough in its default mentality splits. For example, the difference between stopper and cover settings is not pronounced enough for me. I often have to manually set one to low mentality, closing down, tackling with the stopper set to high mentality, closing down and tackling. Subtlety might work for partnerships like Vidic / Ferdinand but my budget version is Steven Taylor and Chris Baird, who need more explicit coaxing to dovetail effectively.

[SFraser]

I tend to play people in 'the hole' with a defensive mentality so they play less aggressive and become isolated. This allows them to dictate play a lot more and tends to draw the opposition out of defence to try and pick him up. This leaves big holes to exploit. I think I did a thread on it for FM10 where I had my AMC score 55 goals in 40 games or something simliar.

Interesting you should say that because I did the opposite, I reduced my strikers mentality in order to get him to work as a "spearhead playmaker" for my AMC and Left Inside Forward to play off. In his most prolific season as "spearhead playmaker" my striker got 27 assists.

I think it is very interesting that with near identical formations we both subtly tweak a single key role to produce wholly different and highly effective tactical plans. Yours being an AMC dropping deep then driving forward to attack and disrupt defences, my plan being a creative striker playing with his back to goal and linking up like a playmaker with my true striker peeling off the shoulder of the fullback.

I like the sound of the behaviour of your AMC though, and with my "creative forward" functioning well I might experiment with reducing my AMC's mentality to see if I can produce behaviour similar to what you have described. My "Tactical Theory" for my team is the traditional number 10 plays upfront alone, the traditional 9 plays on the left wing. This means that in theory the traditional 11 winger should slot into the AMC position and having a pacey and technical dribbler attacking from deep and bouncing passes off my creative striker sounds top drawer. And I have just the man for the job.

I'm off to fiddle around with my tactics.

[Cleon]

Interesting you should say that because I did the opposite, I reduced my strikers mentality in order to get him to work as a "spearhead playmaker" for my AMC and Left Inside Forward to play off. In his most prolific season as "spearhead playmaker" my striker got 27 assists.

I think it is very interesting that with near identical formations we both subtly tweak a single key role to produce wholly different and highly effective tactical plans. Yours being an AMC dropping deep then driving forward to attack and disrupt defences, my plan being a creative striker playing with his back to goal and linking up like a playmaker with my true striker peeling off the shoulder of the fullback.

I like the sound of the behaviour of your AMC though, and with my "creative forward" functioning well I might experiment with reducing my AMC's mentality to see if I can produce behaviour similar to what you have described. My "Tactical Theory" for my team is the traditional number 10 plays upfront alone, the traditional 9 plays on the left wing. This means that in theory the traditional 11 winger should slot into the AMC position and having a pacey and technical dribbler attacking from deep and bouncing passes off my creative striker sounds top drawer. And I have just the man for the job.

I'm off to fiddle around with my tactics.

The reason I did it this way was because I can always get AMC's playing well but I never feel I get them playing a high enough standard for my liking. Especially over a large amount of games. It was easy to get them to score 15 - 25 goals a season But I was always left wanting that bit extra and never got it. Until I tried the method I described. It was always one of them positions that would eat away at me as I knew I could get so much more.

It's very interesting though that we both wanted the same thing but achieved it by different methods. And looks like we both had the same amount of success. If you fancy chucking around a few ideas just PM me

[ky jelly]

just a quick question:

if you play the attacking midfielder at mentality 5 or 6, how do you set up the winger/inside forward and the lone striker? i tried setting the striker at middle mentality (10) and wingers at around 12 to 15 but i find my attacking play to be not as fluid as before due to the distance between the amc and the rest of the attackers

i have a pacey striker (febian brandy) whom i set to stick on position (not moving into channel) as i want him to terrorize the defence head on. that's all he has, poor heading ability and average finishing tbh

[aderow]

You know I decided to give this a try and I must say it makes for nice football.

Here's what happened in my last match:

I have never restricted a team to 0 shots. Ever.

Even against the smallest of sides.

And I wasn't playing with a high line either.

I think more people should try this out......

[Karnage94]

I think the idea that your strikers are more composed in front of goal is very believable. I played a save with FSV Frankfurt in the German second tier, a team set for relegation. So I adopted a conservative 4-2-3-1 Deep and played on the counter. I averaged about 4 shots a game and averaged 1.7 goals in the first half of the first season, then for some reason I didn't find the motivation to continue but any clear chance I had it was put away even with quite abysmal strikers. I havn't tried the whole system with the attacking defenders although I do want to try this on a mess about save. Sounds very good