[FM11] Heathxxx Lower League Management Approach

[Bonesoul]

Lander

I've not checked with any editors, but I'm thinking that low-ish consistency ratings may well be an issue with some of my players past and present.

.

Without experience of FM editors, I cant be certain. However, with some some consideration of my previous post re Determination. It is my understanding that consistency is one of the hidden attributes in FM. One of the reasons to focus on Determination is that based on my understanding from reading the forum's, determination is a good guide to the hidden attribute consistency (Heath's input here would be god, i mean good ). If good determination tends to lead to a good invisaible trait consistency, then I need to rethink my atitude to determination ( again:) ).

It reminds me of the poem :

For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the rider was lost.

For want of a rider the battle was lost.

For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Its one of the reasons I struggle with mental vs physical attributes, after all a soldier with a rifle in the right place at the right time, is better than a batallion at the right time a day too late. Its why Pace, Acceleration and Positiining to me are such underated attributes when looking at defensive considerations.

This brings me to a mental attribute we havent discussed to any great length. Decisions, should I try to tackle or should I just jockey and try to delay. As a kid I played football for my town (under 12's) as a right back. My problem (ignoring the fact I stayed 5'6") when the people I was playing against continued to grow, was I was slow. My strength was my abiltiy to tackle, but I couldnt jocky/delay to save my life, if I tried, as players developed they could just knock the ball ten yards past me and I couldnt do anything other than foul them.

Hence my question, for most positions (ignoring the potential determination Vs consistency question), is decisions, do I tackle or not (hence decisions) more important than determination. Lets face it in modern football (as I found out to my cost, dropped when I wasnt physical enough to compete), with the odd exception of a Paul McGrath, who could play at the highest level despite totally buggered knee's, you are no use if you cant be there when you need to be (hence physical attribute).

So Determintion Vs Decisions, your views.

Bone

Ps: I know im showing my age here, but for those who saw him, given his problems with his knees and with alcohol, what do you think of Mc Grath as a DMC in his early years, and as a CD cover (an odd one I know, given his bum knee's and hence no pace, but his reading of the game anticipation/positioning) as perfect for a lower league team as in my terms the players (he stops you loosing). I just remember Italia 90, the three tenor's and all,where despite being basically a crock, he could still cope with the Baggio's of this world.

[heathxxx]

Lander .

Without experience of FM editors, I cant be certain. However, with some some consideration of my previous post re Determination. It is my understanding that consistency is one of the hidden attributes in FM. One of the reasons to focus on Determination is that based on my understanding from reading the forum's, determination is a good guide to the hidden attribute consistency (Heath's input here would be god, i mean good ). If good determination tends to lead to a good invisaible trait consistency, then I need to rethink my atitude to determination ( again:) ).

It reminds me of the poem :

For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the rider was lost.

For want of a rider the battle was lost.

For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Its one of the reasons I struggle with mental vs physical attributes, after all a soldier with a rifle in the right place at the right time, is better than a batallion at the right time a day too late. Its why Pace, Acceleration and Positiining to me are such underated attributes when looking at defensive considerations.

This brings me to a mental attribute we havent discussed to any great length. Decisions, should I try to tackle or should I just jockey and try to delay. As a kid I played football for my town (under 12's) as a right back. My problem (ignoring the fact I stayed 5'6") when the people I was playing against continued to grow, was I was slow. My strength was my abiltiy to tackle, but I couldnt jocky/delay to save my life, if I tried, as players developed they could just knock the ball ten yards past me and I couldnt do anything other than foul them.

Hence my question, for most positions (ignoring the potential determination Vs consistency question), is decisions, do I tackle or not (hence decisions) more important than determination. Lets face it in modern football (as I found out to my cost, dropped when I wasnt physical enough to compete), with the odd exception of a Paul McGrath, who could play at the highest level despite totally buggered knee's, you are no use if you cant be there when you need to be (hence physical attribute).

So Determintion Vs Decisions, your views.

Bone

Ps: I know im showing my age here, but for those who saw him, given his problems with his knees and with alcohol, what do you think of Mc Grath as a DMC in his early years, and as a CD cover (an odd one I know, given his bum knee's and hence no pace, but his reading of the game anticipation/positioning) as perfect for a lower league team as in my terms the players (he stops you loosing). I just remember Italia 90, the three tenor's and all,where despite being basically a crock, he could still cope with the Baggio's of this world.

Yes, I find that Determination can usually be seen as a good suggestion that other hidden attributes will be pretty favourable, particularly Professionalism and Ambition. I'll always try to sign players with 12+ Determination if I can in the lower leagues. More "determined" players will try to play their best for longer in games. If your team goes behind, a determined bunch of players will try to get back into the game. If they're more determined, there's less chance of them becoming complacent in games - and complacency is arguably the hardest thing to man-manage. Especially if you notice a player is "Complacent" in the second half of a match. If I see that next to a player when looking at the morale widget, I usually substitute them. Players who are prone to complacency usually require a stiff word or two at half time.

As for Determination versus Decisions... rather than one or the other, both if I can get them.

As with any mental attributes in the lower leagues, the higher they are overall, the better. It's one of the reasons I'm quite happy to sign older players, like Viola and Laslandes, who I signed at the start of my Telford save. Poor physical attributes, but very good mental and technical attributes more than made up for their lack of strong physicals. Quite literally, they could out-think their opponents and read games better.

So if you can tempt a couple of old pro's, who've played at the highest level, down to the dungeon divisions, they'll be an incredible advantage.

That said, apart from one or two old pro's, I do like to have good physical attributes in certain key positions. For a defensive "stopper", If they've got good mental attributes, I don't mind so much if their not blessed with decent Pace and Acceleration, as the mental attributes will help them read the game better. A good stopper must have good Strength and Heading, amongst other attributes. But for any position or role, the easiest guide is to look at the key highlighted attributes that the Tactics Creator will show you.

Add to those recommendations, a little focus on stronger mental attributes, you'll be getting players able to work well together and who'll be easier to manage.

[lander]

In some ways I hate Brazilian football, at least the FM variety , the majority of teams play with a 4-2-2-2 formation that is no wide mids at all but 2x DM, 2x CM and 2x SC. In a lot of my posts I have mentioned that in a 4-4-2 is formation dropping one of your CM's back to a DM makes a big difference in terms of protecting the defence and making it harder to score against you. With 2 DM's in front of the defence of most of my Brazilian opposition its a nightmare and hence my dislike ( they arent supposed to stop me scoreing are they!!! ). To make matters worse it appears to me that the central midfield is the absolute engine of the match. That is to say you have to at least complete in numbers there or the posession % for a game is just so massivley against you its hard to achieve anything. Though playing wide midfielders would on the face of it give you a great outlet when you are in posession, unless you match the opposition numbers in the central midfield you just dont get the chance to make them pay, its more holding out against an onslought as they have the ball all the time.

This may sound stupidly simplistic (perhaps even coming across as condescending, though I assure you that is not my intention) but as the old saying goes: If you can't get through them, go around them.

As for Determination versus Decisions... rather than one or the other, both if I can get them.

As with any mental attributes in the lower leagues, the higher they are overall, the better. It's one of the reasons I'm quite happy to sign older players, like Viola and Laslandes, who I signed at the start of my Telford save. Poor physical attributes, but very good mental and technical attributes more than made up for their lack of strong physicals. Quite literally, they could out-think their opponents and read games better.

So if you can tempt a couple of old pro's, who've played at the highest level, down to the dungeon divisions, they'll be an incredible advantage.

I'd just like to add my thoughts here. If I had to choose, I'd go for determination over decisions. This is not to say I would choose someone with poor decisions but very good determination over someone with average decisions and determination. Just my personal preference, if presented with two very similar players, to go for the higher determination.

In my experience, players with high determination tends to respond well to critiscism. I'm not afraid to let them know exactly what I think of their performances, even with ratings between 6.4-6.7 if I feel it's warranted. Players with low determination (on low personality traits) tend to throw their toys out of their pram if they don't feel my criticism or praise was justified. I usually do learn to manage these primadonnas, but I prefer to not have to massage their fragile egos all the time.

For me, as an Arsenal supporter, one of the standout players with high determination would be Ray Parlour. Not the most technically gifted of players, but his determination and workrate was admirable. He would never give up chasing a ball if there was even a slim chance of getting to it. He would never stop trying getting us the win as long as there was time left on the clock. Compare that to some of the players we've had over the last seasons, and I'm sure you'll get my drift. Gallas, Adebayor, Diaby and Rosicky are some that come to mind. Much as it pains me to say that; I've always had a soft spot for Rosicky. On his day, an amazingly gifted player. But you would be hard pressed to find any gooner that thinks Rosicky is the kind of player that can turn a match around.

One more thing regarding determination: Captaincy. If you can get a captain with high determination and influence, this is the kind of player that will lift a team when you're losing. Just had a match where we went down 0-2. Average ratings 6.3, some as low as 5.6. To my horror, my captain had 5.8, and he had been by far my best player this season. I began writing down notes on how to raise morale and prepare for the next match. And when I looked back at my laptop, my captain had lifted himself out of that horrible performance, to a 6.9 — and inspired most of my team to a better performance. We only managed to grab a goal to make it a 1-2 loss, but I fear without that strong character as captain, the end result would have been far, far worse.

As for the older players, NEVER underestimate the importance of tutoring. I mentioned how I signed players with low determination, with the intent to tutor them, but forgot all about it and released their would-be mentors. As already mentioned, it became a source of much frustration and despair on my part.

If you can't tutor them, the only way (I've found) to raise their mental traits is if you warn/fine them and they feel you are in the right. (On that note, if they moan about you being too harsh on them, wait until the next time you can have a chat with them, and warn them that if their attitude don't improve they'll be put on the transfer list. For me, they always begs me not to sell them and promise that they'll improve. I do not have any evidence to it, but I'm sure that this hardline approach makes them either gain personality traits or improve their relationship to you so any future warnings/fines will be more acceptable.)

[heathxxx]

I've really enjoyed reading through many of the posts in this thread, since I stopped playing the save it started out with. Pleased others have picked up the torch, so to speak.

The aim with a thread like this, is for people to share thoughts and ideas. There's no real right or wrong way to play the game and it's always interesting to see how others prefer to do things. I think this thread has done just that, thanks to everyone who's contributed.

[Bonesoul]

When discussing other traits Im looking at them as not just the trait in general for any player or in isolation. I am always looking for a player who has a set of attributes that position and subset of postiion that I want in my tactical setup, recognising that there is some flexibility to tweak it a bit based on the players I can get my grubby little mitts on. So for an attacking midfielder I may have my heart set on a winger type in my initial planning but manage to pick up a player who fits better as an inside forward so tewak the tactics to fit the player.

On a side note one thing im getting better at is remembering to adjust my prepared tactics for this as well. In my first few saves, especially when starting in somwhere like the BSN/S I would often forget to do this and almost always forget to do it as I got promotions. For example in the BSS/N im most likely using two CD's (stopper/cover being my preffered option) and given the quality of players available will most likely have them set as limited defenders. With promotion to the BSP and even the heady hights of the NPL2 and NPL1, the overall quality of defender available to me will improve. If I get a good one and dont swap from limited defender to something that allows the better overall skills to be utilised I may be looseing out (do I realy want a CD with good composure and great passing just hoofing the ball up the pitch all the time?).

What im interested in is exploring with the others here, is options based on particular player positions and roles, where it might be worth being a little bit outside the box. Going back to the Determination vs Decisions discussion we have been having over the last few days and looking at my two DC's. Absolutly both need to have sufficient determination to compete in the league im playing in, so the absolute number will vary dependant on the division. In my curent save I have a good quality Stopper with great good determination and tackling for the league, hes 29 so the oldest player in my squad (I tend to recruit youth as for me they are easier to find on free transfer) and hes OK but not gread pace wise. My cover is what got me thinking, he has what I like in a cover (acceleration and anticipation) but came with the bonus of being a very good passer of the ball. I immediatly jumped at the chance of trying out a ball playing CD. My concern is hes ok but not great Decisions wise, not that i can easily do much about it, but I just have this nagging itch that given hes going to be messing about with the ball at the back, I would be happy to sacrifice a point or two in determination to improve his decisions.

Its partly horses for courses mixing and matching to build a team. Im looking it as the pairing and their roles within it more than just the individual and their absolute fit to their single position. What are your views around this and are there any specific things you look at to try to achieve a team effect rather than the individual players ability. Where you are attempting to make a compromise or slightly off standard decision about one of a pairing or group of players to achieve some sort of synergy, to get 2+2=5.

Lander its interesting your an Arsenal fan (they are my second team after Wolves who are my hometown team). It brings me to an issue I have with the way attribute development in younger players works, with the effects experienced player can have on youngsters being pretty much limited to the mentor process. One of the reasons I like Arsenal other than the football they try to play, is how well they develop youngsters not just skill wise but in terms of approach and mentality. You may not agree but I believe one of the key players for Arsenal in the last fifteen years, not just based on his time at the club and individual performance, but based on the mark he left on the youth setup in terms of professionalism and mental approach to the game was Denis Bergkamp. When I look at Fabregas and other who have come through the youth ranks in the last few years, its not Bould or Adams or Viera I see in them but Bergkamp and that influence is there across the youth setup not just the odd mentored player.

So my frustration in FM is that the qualities of your "star players" dosent sem to flow down into your entire youth development setup, I know you need the coaches and training grounds to make the most of it. It just seems to me the qualities, good and bad, of your experienced players should have more of an effect on the development of young players. After all these are the role models they see and interact with most closely as they develop their own football pesonalities.

Cheers

Bone

[heathxxx]

What im interested in is exploring with the others here, is options based on particular player positions and roles, where it might be worth being a little bit outside the box. Going back to the Determination vs Decisions discussion we have been having over the last few days and looking at my two DC's. Absolutly both need to have sufficient determination to compete in the league im playing in, so the absolute number will vary dependant on the division. In my curent save I have a good quality Stopper with great good determination and tackling for the league, hes 29 so the oldest player in my squad (I tend to recruit youth as for me they are easier to find on free transfer) and hes OK but not gread pace wise. My cover is what got me thinking, he has what I like in a cover (acceleration and anticipation) but came with the bonus of being a very good passer of the ball. I immediatly jumped at the chance of trying out a ball playing CD. My concern is hes ok but not great Decisions wise, not that i can easily do much about it, but I just have this nagging itch that given hes going to be messing about with the ball at the back, I would be happy to sacrifice a point or two in determination to improve his decisions.

Will be interesting to see how you get on with a ball playing defender in the lower leagues.

For me, it's one of those roles I reserve for the very best players, usually at the highest level. I don't feel so comfortable using a role like that in the lower leagues, so would probably use Central Defender "Cover". Depends on your overall system though, as if you're playing a slower tempo, shorter passing game, then a ball playing defender with the right attributes will dovetail with the rest of your system.

My most used central defensive setup, is Limited Defender "Stopper" with Central Defender "Cover". Call it my "comfort zone" in the heart of defence, as I've always managed to get just the right players for the two positions and roles. Limited Defender "Stopper" works well at higher levels too. I like the role in itself, simply because I prefer my "Stopper" to be a no nonsense player. Win the ball and get rid of it. I am playing a higher tempo, more direct game with my current team though.

[Bonesoul]

Cheers for the response Heath.

In my current save where I have the little gem of a passing defender I found, I am in the Brazilian Second division (I started in the lowest possible Brasilian 3rd, but am just about to start a new season following promotion) so im not sure how low league it is. The 3rd division would definatly class as lower league on average based on player ability, but with the odd surpprisingly good player floating around in it (it is Brazil after all). It took two season's to get that first promotion, well sort of one as the structure of the football is a bit odd.

I got the job two games into the 3rd division season proper (I had waited patiently for aver nine months for a suitable position in Brazil to become available after resigning from Saarbrucken in Germany). This gave almost no time to change the available players much or bed in any new tactics. It was also impossible to get the squad properly match fit before the season was pretty much over. The Brazillian 3rd division season is a whole 10-12 matches long with usually a fortnight between games, so a most unusual prospect first time I hit it.

The second season went much better as I had the oppertunity to reshape the side in preparation and start to get the tactics I wanted to play properly prepared. I also found it quite odd in format. It started with the Minears (may be spelt wrong) state championships, an 18 game competition with a sort of state cup semifinal and final in the middle after 9 games. The games also came thick and fast, two a week so its a good job my philosophy is to have a strong squad of 22 plus suitable players. This was followed by a short break then the 3rd division season proper of 10-12 games on a fortnightly basis, which was where I managed to get promotion.

Im now looking forward to a season with the State Championships again followed by a 2nd division season of a more usual 38 to 40 games played approx once a week.

As to my little gem of a passing defender and how I hope he will work, in general I view the pairing to work in the same way as you. The stopper is just that, a no nonsense ball winning machine (a bit of an enforcer whos not averse to rough up the opposition where necesary too if possible). The cover is alomst a sweeper in some ways with the anticipation and acceleation to get to and stifle opposition oppertunities when they have got past the stopper. He is a real gem for the overall team level, possibly the best overall player I have in my team, (one of the reasons I am so desperate for him to work as a ball playing defender) i hate the idea of all that ability not being a creative outlet. If he wasnt 29 and an absolute DC with no clue in any other position I would realy like to retrain him as a DMC and use him as a deep lying playmaker, but I think at 29 I got him too late to got that route.

My big worry is I dont think the game engine will fit with how I want the pairing to work and have no idea if there is any way I can nudge it in that direction. The stopper plays as limited defender, I is sort of see that in game engine terms as him seeing the ball as a very hot potato best hoofed up the pitch at any oppertunity. Given he is the ball winner most of the posession I get at the back will start with him winning the ball and usually the stopper should be in space near him. I want the cover to be the stoppers preffered outlet for the ball so the cover can use his passing to set up my attacking phase. But how do I encourage the stopper to use him when available and not just punt the ball up the park.

Its a bit of that synergy approach im happy to take slightly more risk defensively to gain a benefit from my covers passing in improving my attacking options, but will the players play as I hope they will.

As usual any inputs more than welcome.

Bone

[davidmcain]

Just wanted to take a minute to praise Heathxxx on this terrific thread. Typically Im a manager who gets the expected results. Win/draw to similar/weaker sides, or loss/draw to stronger sides. Playing with Dundee Utd i secured the SPL title with no transfer budget and three games to spare. Whilst they are not a lower legue side, a wage budget of 35k and 0k for transfers meant LLM techniques applied. They main thing I got out of this thread was the unsettling of opposition players in the run-in to a match. I laughed at the ineffectiveness the media pressure caused their 'danger-man' and fell off my chair when the 'weak-links' made routine mistakes, gave me penalties, and get themselves sent off. Combined with a bit more attention to detail on my tactics (I reccomend the Old tactic system, changing back to this allowed me to really tailor each positions role) and your off the field help, this game was one of my most enjoyable ever. Highlights would probably be the back to back victories vs Rangers at Ibrox 5-1 and 4-1.

So yeah thanks HEATHXXX your a champion!

[heathxxx]

When I play an SPL save, I usually tend to play as Dundee United. Probably has something to do with watching a Dundee Utd v Aberdeen, New Years Day match at Tannedice... ohh... some time ago! (Duncan Ferguson up-front for Dundee United and Alex Mcleish was in defence for Aberdeen.)

Good team to play as and you're completely right. A lower league approach works well with them and other SPL sides, when trying to get ahead of Rangers and Celtic, on little funds and a big gap in reputation to contend with.

[masshlx]

I'm playing F.C. Halifax, hasn't been going good lately. I had 2 20 match unbeaten streaks, broken up by a loss in a local cup. Mid February I was 12 points clear with 3 games in hand. Since then I've lost 8 of 10 and have been overtaken. Time for a little more tweaking before I fall out of the playoff.

[heathxxx]

Have you taken a look at why results are going the wrong way? Poor form of players? Players injured or suspended? Poor morale? There's usually always a reason, especially if your team is capable of such lengthy unbeaten runs.

Although player complacency is often mentioned, I'd also like to add "manager complacency". I'm sure we've all been at that stage where we think our team is unbeatable, so forget to do some of the basic preparation going into matches. We ignore opportunities to use the media to our advantage, forget to have private chats with a couple of players to boost their morale, or let opportunities to change things during matches pass, because we believe we'll be ok.

[masshlx]

To say it's manager complacency would be an understatement. A serious rash of injuries, possibly too many friendlies for my reserves a while back, I always ask assistant to speak to press, etc.

I've refocused on the league only now. One last cup game, using reserves and youth to save the regular team.

Once the season is over I'll reassess my team and reread this whole thread to see how I can improve.

As always, thanks for this thread, Heath.

[masshlx]

I've been playing this game for 9 years, or so and have never been able to finish at least 1 season, due to various reasons. Yesterday, success, finally, and 1st place to boot.

Now off to see what BSN will challenge me with.

[heathxxx]

Keep at it.

Part of the fun of a lower league save, is seeing how much you can improve a club, or just how far you can take them.

[Terry01234]

After reading many of the posts here, I decided to play FM again!!

Started with Thurrock, released all my squad and bought a team of Reunion players!! Arranged some friendlies against Premiership reserves, to make up the money lost.

Playing 4-2-0-2-2, currently in December and sitting 3rd in the league and have qualified for the 3rd round of the FA Cup! Beating Southend (League 2) 5-1!!

Thank-you Heathxxx for making me play FM again!!

[LordAEM]

Yeah i started a new save aswell, in the friendlies atm, Beating Wallsall 4-0 with a tactic i quickly put together.

I got faith in my team and tactic. Now lets Kill this Leauge and go for BSP.

AFC Telford Res 4-0 Win

Wallsall 4-0 Win

Dartford 4-2 Win

Barnsley 6-0 Win

Weston Super Mare 4-0 Win

Wolves Res. 2-0 Win

Arsenal Res. 3-0 Win

Man Utd Res. 1-2 Loss

Time for the real deal to start.

1st Comp game vs Hyde a 3-1 win. They scored after i lost 1 player due to injury (already used my 3 subs 75+ min) bit later laslandes got injured aswell.

All in all a win is a win and 3-1 is not too bad.

Vauxhall 2-0 win

Gainsborough 4-2 win. Had a good start here got ahead 4-0. Then 1 corner and a CCC and there was 4-2.

[Faramir]

I was initially part of the LLM forum (I have been playing clubs up from the lowest levels since CM2), but eventually I moved over to FMS because of their restrictive posting regulations. There are many excellent posts on this thread, but I will echo one of Heathxxx's comments- it is much harder in the latest versions of FM to make that final step with the club- winning the top league of whatever country you are playing in. The difficulties of getting a lower level club to the top league are daunting, but that remains my preferred style of play- I hate playing 'big' clubs. My current saves are Staal (Norway, playing in their top league at present) and my just started run in England with my favorite -Harrow Hill (edited in to the BSN).

[heathxxx]

One of the reasons I try to stress the importance of building the infrastructure of the club itself, is the quicker you improve, the better prepared you are for higher divisions.

How quickly and successfully you can develop the infrastructure of a club, can of course depend a great deal on who you're managing and how helpful their chairman is.

In my Telford save, I was lucky to have a chairman who was happy to improve things when requested. I also tried to keep the finances healthy to help facilitate improvements to training and youth facilities, along with the purchase and improvement of the stadium. These are amongst the most expensive to see improved.

One of the very first things I always do though, is try to get the board to agree to improving scouting range and the number of scouts allowed. By the time I had Telford in League Two, I was able to scout worldwide and had about ten scouts of varied nationalities, with varied knowledge of different countries and regions around the world.

Why is scouting range and scouts with a broad range of knowledge important? Because the more players you can find with ease globally, the better prospects you have of signing talented young players. You can then try to develop them and it's often inevitable they'll attract attention. Nobody likes losing their best players, but when it comes to selling them to bigger clubs, it can be the very life-blood of a lower league team. I've had saves where I've sold a player for a great fee, enough that I could effectively go out and buy an entire new squad if I wanted. Obviously some I'd spend on strengthening the squad, but most I'd save for more facility improvements and to build up funds for the ever increasing wage budgets as you climb the leagues.

[Faramir]

Very good point on the scouting heathxxx. Because of the obscure nature of the club, I can't hope to gain access to really good external players until somewhere around League 2 or League 1- so will make do as much as I can until that point. One thing I do heavily is scout the Premier club Under-19 sides for the players with expiring contracts. The ones I can lure to Hill usually are the bedrock I build on until I gain access to a more varied market.

I know from past experience the road for Harrow Hill up is rocky- we won't get any prize money for the first season (due to editing in the club and there is a glitch that keeps you from receiving prize money), and I also know getting Larksfield Road to go away in favor of the club owned stadium is a testing process (local board keeps things from happening with regularity)

[LordAEM]

Yeah the most important thing when u start out, is probably not the players, but THE STAFF.

If u dont upgrade ur staff, you will be in a lot of trouble, from the get go. I just started the Dafuge Challenge (where u coach a newly promoted team starting 11-12)

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Heath, rather than start a thread asking "when is the 2012 demo out?" I have been good ;-), I have started testing my tactical theories for 2011/12 on FM11. Without getting too detailed I have the following ideas:

Tactic 1: My usual attacking 541/433 Mourinho style tactic (for when I am confident of a positive result.

Tactic 2: 41311 thats a 442 narrow diamond with the 2nd striker dropped in a central MC position to man mark the opposition star player (for games where the opposition have a key threat of a player).

I would be interested in your thoughts on this. The man marking tactic is something I have never considered before, and cannot recall reading about it elsewhere either, though I doubt it is 1000% unique.

[heathxxx]

I think you should be fairly safe that anything that worked well tactically with FM10 & FM11, should work well enough with FM12. Sensible, well thought out tactics will work with any version of the game.

I've used some of the same or similar tactical ideas from FM05, which have worked well enough in every version since. Indeed, I don't think my back four settings have ever changed at all. The main difference now and since FM10, is that I exclusively use the tactics creator. I've not touched the sliders since FM09 and the only time I've used anything "advanced", has been to set the goalkeeper passing to "defender collect", if his kicking and throwing isn't very good.

[hedger_14]

Okay, well thank you heathxxx. Took a few of your ideas especially in hiring staff as I've been trying to do dafuge's challenge. I'm using FC Halifax and I'm going strong, in League 2 and currently 2 wins and a draw in my first 3 games there, one win against Luton who we battled with promotion in Blue Square Premier last season so that was pretty pleasing.

To start off with, I was using a 4-2-4 formation with 2 wingers which worked out fine for my team but I really lacked a second striker in my last season so after managing to pick up Davide Petrucci from Bromley for 35k over 48 months, I changed my formation to a 4-2-3-1 with the attacking central midfielder and 2 wingers. Petrucci's great creativity and flair (14 and 17 respectively) made me want to use him as an advanced playmaker, and currently averaging 7.07 after 3 games, with just the one assist but a fair few key passes (7 in total so far). Would have liked him to run the ball a little more and hopefully shoot with some nice finishing abilities (12 finishing) which is just as good as my strikers as 3 of my strikers have 12 finishing. Nikola Saric is my gun striker and I'm playing him up front alone this season.

I'm going to see how this formation goes for the first half of the season but I might change it around a little at the end of the season. Arranging a whole lot of friendlies against Championship teams and overseas teams gave me a fair bit of money as I now have 307,922 pounds which will hopefully keep me going until the end of the season. This 25% wage increase for nearly all my players for promotion can get really annoying. I'm trying not to sign so many players now and I only have 3 players over the age of 24 in my squad and one isn't even close to my first team. I should probably get rid of him as he is on 21,000 a year and I have Packwood and Davis in centre midfield, I have a player on loan to rotate with them, Petrucci can play in central midfield if I revert back and I have a decent youngster in Darkin who 250 pound p/a youth contract and he's got 2.5 potential for midfield (3 for striker though) so I've got him as a backup and he's played 6 matches so far and scored one goal so I'll offer him a deal probably around December so I don't have to pay wages for him until then

Edit: I'm also playing another save with Queen's Park, a Scottish Third Division amateur team. I'm just wondering if there was anyway to request for semi-professional status or do you just have to wait? Cause even though I love not paying a single dollar in wages, I'd rather be a semi-pro (Well professional) club.

[Kenzie]

Edit: I'm also playing another save with Queen's Park, a Scottish Third Division amateur team. I'm just wondering if there was anyway to request for semi-professional status or do you just have to wait? Cause even though I love not paying a single dollar in wages, I'd rather be a semi-pro (Well professional) club.

Queen's Park will always remain amateur as a true reflection of real life; unfortunately the amateur contract system in the game doesn't reflect real life. If you choose to edit this, if that's even possible, I'd recommend changing Hampden Park to have under soil heating (as it does) because if you do somehow make it to the SPL it gets installed at an extortionate rate.

Apologies for going off topic. Great thread, wish I could contribute but I don't have enough time to commit to playing the game at the moment.

[hedger_14]

Well not much point in that then. May as well just give up with that save.

Doing well in League 2 though with Halifax even with a bad injury run. Currently sitting top after 15 games with 9 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses, 1 point ahead of Southend, 2 ahead of MK Dons and Oxford and surprisingly, Crystal Palace are in 12th place, although they haven't won a game in their last 4 matches after a good start, including a 1-0 loss to me.

But injuries have hit us hard, Yadolahi had a broken leg suffered in pre-season and he's been out for the whole season so far and still another 7 weeks-3 months out so there will probably be no gametime for him until late January (currently 10th Nov).

Steven Smith, my other central back (along with McGinty) suffered a hip injury keeping him out for the last 10 games and still out for another 3 months, forcing me to sign a couple of defenders on loan. My left back then got injured in my last game and is out for 6-8 weeks so now I have 2 right backs and 3 central backs with one of the right backs and one of the central backs able to play on the left hand side, and now McGinty was called up for Ireland U21 and Henley, my right back was called up for Wales U21 and now I won't be able to field a backline.

I'm looking to sign another left back on loan after Parker's loan had expired right before the left back came back into the side and got injured. The game isn't letting me sign anyone on long term loans for some reason and I can't sign anyone on loan for more than 3 months in a season which ****es me off.

Nikola Saric also got injured and missed a couple of weeks which isn't terrible news but definitely another set back. Hasn't had the same season as last with only 6 goals in 13 games so far but he's scored 4 in his last 4 league games before the injury so he should be looking to go on another goalscoring run now that he's back. Spear and Alfie Potter who I managed to get in as a right winger are the only other players to have scored 3 goals with Adkins (loaned centre back), Knott and O'Brien having scored 2 goals.

[heathxxx]

It sucks when you hit an injury crisis - especially if at the same time you've got players being called up for international duty.

All adds to the "challenge" of lower league management though!

[Terry01234]

Back to back promotions, with Thurrock!!

Now into league 2, and have just turned Professional.

[Faramir]

Off to a good start with Harrow Hill- actually the best start I have ever had with them (this is about the 6th or 7th time I have started with them over the FM years) as we reached midseason without a loss and just having beaten our two top competitors (AFC Telford and Blyth) to hold a comfortable margin atop BSN. We have survived injuries to our top forward (Lachine Cherif who started out on fire with 10 goals in his first 6 matches), top wingers and both top defenders- a testament to the depth players. Our first loss came in FA Cup 1st round to my real-life favorite side (Leyton Orient) as they battered us badly. We have also lost to Basingstoke in FA Trophy.

[Liam_]

Hey Heath, I was told to read this thread by Jenko_EFC who's my brother and I've really enjoyed it. I think I'm going to start in the BSN/BSS later on and will let you know how I get on

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I wonder if the option of arranging daily moneyspinning friendlies has been curbed for 2012 - I hope not!, it may be a little unrealistic but it helps make BSN/BSS management doable. Heath, if you arrange friendlies Sun-to Fri, 5 days in a row, how do you ensure that only trialists/reserves/youths get selected (keeping 1st teamers rested & fresh). I find I end up playing every match because even holidaying sees the odd appearance of one of my key players in a friendlyonly days before a vital 1st Team game. I think I need a better understanding of the holidaying options, specific to this scenario-Help! LOL.

[lam]

Defending Corners

Now for defending corners, which to be fair, I haven't conceded from yet, but I've decided to try some theory and have changed from the default to this:

My two full backs are set to "mark near post" and "mark far post",

This is interesting...... I generaly use my wingers to mark the posts. For the simple reason that I would rather use the marking ability of the wingbacks to mark players in the box, whereas the wingers generally have no marking skills are often better on the posts.

I also found that having a fast accelerating player on the near post will mean they get to the ball first. The amount of time Lennon makes clearances for me from this position when i play as Spurs is unbeleivable.

Regards

LAM

[heathxxx]

See what you mean, but I always try to sign fast full-backs too.

[lam]

See what you mean, but I always try to sign fast full-backs too.

With marking abilities?

I have just started with your save. It's very interesting!

Out of interest, can I ask what you do in season two? Do you do the same exersize again and find better players? The batch of players you have now (season one) seem to be good enough to take Telford to NP1/2.

Also, how long do you stick with the same team? Do you turn them into powerhouses or do you leave and drop down the leagues again after XYZ seasons?

Regards

LAM

*edit*

At what point do you find that you can start finding really good promising (PA) youngesters? and do you groom them through the teams?

As much as this game interests me I am sorry to say that I am only two pages into this thread.

[Shake Appeal]

I started a new save at long-fallen-from-grace Pro Vercelli (I am not sure the database handled their name change/buyout/whatever it was in 2010 properly, but here we are).

Sold more or less the whole team the first season and rebuilt it with free transfers and free loans from Juventus (couldn't ask for a better parent club!). Results were up and down until I reverted to a boring old 4-4-2 (I was using a 4-3-1-2 originally) and ground out a playoff spot (fifth? sixth? I can't remember). Won the semi-final over two legs, against the odds. Won the final, also against the odds, getting a very dubious penalty in the 91st minute of the second leg that saw me through. I may have punched the air and shouted some embarrassing things.

Second season was phenomenal: won the league and the associated super cup. Straight back to back promotions, though we just about stumbled over the line in the end. Still living off free transfers for the most part, though one big sale and a little transfer kitty meant I could start spending money. We were still losing money monthly, as we had in the first year, but less, and we weren't in the red by season's end. I had switched to a 4-3-2-1 that allowed me to make use of tricky AMCs, my favourite position in FM and in life.

Serie B, it turns out, is really, really hard, even when you have nabbed a bunch of Juventus (and other) reserves as their contract expires. It's ultra-competitive, with very few points separating teams, especially in the top half. It has 22 teams, which is 42 games of regular season, and then another four if you reach the playoffs. To my own amazement, I did just that, though only because we hit a vein of form in the last few games of the season (before that, we'd been batted up and down). By now I was playing a counter-attacking 4-3-2-1, with the team almost entirely changed from the year before, except for one or two players who had lasted the pace from the lower leagues (including my beloved Vincenzo Pepe, who has pretty consistently played above his billing, and bagged countless assists thanks to his relatively high Corners/Crossing attributes and my tendency to use decent target men). I saw a lot of 1-0 wins, quite a few of them undeserved.

Now, they make you play the four playoff games in less than two weeks, and they come after 42 other games (not including a cup run that saw me beat Serie A strugglers Sassuolo in the fourth qualifying round, only to get annihilated 0-2 by Inter in a 'first round' game that was rougher than the scoreline suggests). In the two weeks before the playoffs began, I lost my three starting central midfielders to injury. Then I lost one of the starting AMCs, who also happened to be the club captain. A central defender was suspended for three games. And I was to play newly-relegated Lazio, who were trying to bounce right back. I decided it was a remarkable achievement just to have got this spot, and went into the game with Lazio with a team more or less cobbled together. I had a 17 year-old who had never played for me starting, and three more U20s on the bench. Several players were hovering around 80% condition. We won 2-0 at home, convincingly. In the return leg we squabbled our way to a 1-1 draw. We were in the playoff final.

There we faced Livorno, who should have been an easier beat, but weren't. The first leg was a bridge too far for my players' condition, and we limped out a 0-1 defeat away. We were still very much in with a shout, though. In Serie B playoffs, even though they use two legs and aggregate score, they don't count away goals. Instead, if the aggregate score is tied then extra time is played, and then at the end of extra time, league placement is used to separate teams. We had a better league placement than Livorno, so all we had to do (all!) was tie the game. Even a 1-0 win would see us through, if we could hold onto it for 120 minutes.

We scored! They equalized. We scored again! They equalized. We pegged back immediately to make it 3-2! It was enough to take us into extra time. We were in the ascendancy, and all we had to do was grind out thirty minutes with a depleted, exhausted squad.

In the 121st minute, with the last kick of the game, Livorno scored, and we stayed in Serie B.

In hindsight, it was probably for the best, as we lacked the infrastructure, the players, the experience to compete in Serie A even a little bit. But at the time, I would have ranked it as the single most gutting defeat in over a decade of playing these games.

I was enjoying the save far too much to quit, though, so I shrugged the loss off, and looked to my summer transfer campaign to bring in the quality we would need to mount another offensive the next season. I'm about halfway through it now, and it's been up and down. I'm playing a formation I've never ever used before (sort of a 4-2-1-2-1!). And at Christmas, we're a very close third in the league! The board is simultaneously improving our Training and Youth Facilities! We are about 3 million euro in the black!

...and the board just sold my best defender and best striker from under me.

[Faramir]

This is why I play (and enjoy) FM so much.

2nd season Harrow Hill. We won BSN in first season. Hill played well in BSP all season, but Luton won out in 4 club race for the top spot. Stockport finished 2nd, we finished 3rd- edging out Hereford on the last day of the season. York slipped into 4th, but was well behind the other 4 clubs on points. Stockport thumped York 3-0 at York to ensure their place in the playoff final.

We played a good match to open at Hereford, a club that has given us trouble all season, but wound up on the wrong end of a 1-0 result, despite plenty of opportunities for the much needed away goal. The second leg saw Stockport ease past York 1-0. We drew even on aggregate in the first half thanks to a converted penalty kick. Hereford put us into dire straits early in the second half when we botched the coverage on a corner and they scored the away goal and gained a 2-1 aggregate lead. Things were looking grim when we got our 1st goal from Joan Angel Roman, a late season free transfer signee. We had to keep pressing due to the away goal and scored the dramatic go ahead goal when Scott Malone, another late season free transfer, crossed and David Cooke pushed it past the keeper as we moved to the final on a 3-2 aggregate win.

In the finals, we outplayed Stockport by a large margin, but couldn't score. The match appeared headed for extra-time, when we scored another dramatic winner as Micah Evans rapped home a loose ball in the dying moments of injury time. Moments like these playoffs are just such a worthwhile experience

[MeesterCat]

I have to say this thread has been a revelation to me. I've always been a 'top league for a few seasons' kind of player but, after my last Tottenham save went the way of the dodo, I decided to go and do things properly.

New save, Automatic reputation, start unemployed...

I've wound up at Dover and things are so much more fun than what I've been used to recently. I've always enjoyed trying to find gems and bargains, but it's always been in an Arsene Wenger, cheapskate style. Now that I properly have to rummage and try and unearth players (and persuade them to join) it's added a whole extra dimension to the game. It's also fresh to not be confronted by the same players in the games, or transfer lists.

I found the first few games a little bit tedious to watch due to the reduced skill on show, but now my brain has adjusted I find the uselessness and cockups rather endearing; I've seen some spectacular 'in off the bar, then goalkeeper' efforts. Is it me or does the ME seem to have a little more variety at this level?

I've applied my preferred 424 formation and it seems to be working quite well, barring a disastrous loss with replay to Ashford in the FA Cup 2nd Qualifying round - my squad is now injured or knackered. We're 3rd with a game in hand in early October. (I play SM sloooowly.)

The fact I'm losing 30k a month is slightly worrying especially now with no FA cup windfalls, but I'm sure I can muddle through. My best players so far have been the 18 or 19 year olds i've brought in on low wages, so I'm sure some pruning could be done. Hell, I somehow even managed to entice an Argentinian to The Crabble!

I've given myself a real conundrum though - do I just use this save as practice for FM12 or stick with it old skool with this (FM10).

[Faramir]

Another quick update on my Harrow Hill run. We won BSN in the last few matches of the season. Our first try at BSP saw us hang around the top 6 clubs all season until a late season run of good play put us into the Playoffs in the 3rd place. We eked out a comeback win in the first round and then won 1-0 in Extra time at Wembley to gain promotion to League 2. I was pleasantly surprised to see a new stadium put into works with our promotion (and we moved to professional status). League 2 saw us start well (despite some injuries to key players), but we got into a rut where scoring was a problem and we had to scratch and claw for every result. That stretch wound up costing us a playoff spot as we were edged out by two points on the last day of the season for the final playoff spot. We are now looking forward to a more consistent 2nd season in League 2 and hoping to be in the Playoff hunt again.

[Dartje]

For the love of my live i cannot find a acceptable ass. coach to join my lovely Telford. Even the example in your first post is not willing to go full time and asks about 800 euros for a p/t contract... What am i doing wrong ?

[heathxxx]

Get one who's at least half decent in most of the better attributes, then sack him as soon as someone better becomes available. That's what I'd do

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Get one who's at least half decent in most of the better attributes, then sack him as soon as someone better becomes available. That's what I'd do

Heath, is there a trick for transferring outstanding player scouting missions from a soon-to-be-sacked coach to ANOther?

By the way any plans for a 2012 version of this excellent thread?

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Get one who's at least half decent in most of the better attributes, then sack him as soon as someone better becomes available. That's what I'd do

At Blue Square levels I seem to waste a lot of time wading through staff-searched coaches that comply to the following filter search "Coach/Interested/Out of Contract" and with basic stats of 5 or 6 for important abilities + maybe 9-10 for critical abilities (so no superstar!), only to find nearly every single one will not accept the top wages that I can afford. Is there another filter to help? I actually found a "cheat", you find a coach who is quite good relatively and is still a player then offer him a player/coach contract. He will sign for way below your wage cap and for much much less than a Coach-only with the same staffing attributes. Nice trick but annoying all the same!

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Heath, a couple more questions.

Why have you chosen China as one of your active Leagues for your Blue Square start ups? Surely only a handfull of the Chinese will be permitted to play in the UK under the League rules?, whilst overloading the save game with player "object" data.

Also having read about the "true costs" of team travel in today's blog, is this a way to block our "money Spinner friendlies" loophole or do the club appearance fees come net of expenses. eg AWAY: an appearance fee of eg £3k is net with your expenses paid by the other team. HOME. An estimated match day profit of £15k, less Away teams fee eg £5k gives a £10k profit - there is no chance of the other team demanding extra expenses?

[heathxxx]

I usually always have quite a few leagues running. For no other real reason than I like to see what's going on around my FM world.

Other than that, more leagues and countries running generally means a higher quantity of newgens appearing.

Obviously the amount of data present makes for a long save, but I don't play this game quickly anyway... ç

Haven't read the blog yet.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I usually always have quite a few leagues running. For no other real reason than I like to see what's going on around my FM world.

Other than that, more leagues and countries running generally means a higher quantity of newgens appearing.

Obviously the amount of data present makes for a long save, but I don't play this game quickly anyway... ç

Haven't read the blog yet.

Yes but even so, China? ;-)

I have started using "Canadian" as my second nationionality because my partner is from Canada and I am hooked on "Ice Road Truckers" :-)

Reunion was a good call Heath, any other minnow nations (or any other nations) that you would swap for your "worlds eye view" selections to spread the net for purely for current player availabilities?.

[0gris]

Slovenia could be a good choice, lot's of good players who sign for dirt cheap. Igor Bedo is a cracker of a striker for lower leagues(turns into a good coach further down the line as well for me)

[heathxxx]

Mainly just countries and nations you fancy having available in your game world really.

Sometimes I do a "world tour", start at a lowly club and see where my travels take me

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Mainly just countries and nations you fancy having available in your game world really.

Sometimes I do a "world tour", start at a lowly club and see where my travels take me

My main save game will be a BSS/BSN effort this year. I wonder what is the best way to assess the potential strengths of each club as painlessly as posible. Am not sure internet stats are 100% reliable in relation to the game so will run a half season demo game and check the stats. The stats I refer to are:

*Inherited players (quality, flexibiblity & salary)

*Club financial resources (Bank balance/financial status, wage/Transfer budget, proportion of wage/transfer budget still available)

*Club facilities (Ground/Stadium, training/youth facilities)

*Colours! (the most imporatant for me - cannot play red on blue / blue on red, grey on white or any other wishy washy or gaudy combos)

*"Reality check" (a Club I feel could one day be Football League without restraints of Geography - although Colwyn Bay appeals!)

Heath, any advice on how I can research this reliably in the meantime?

[heathxxx]

My main save game will be a BSS/BSN effort this year. I wonder what is the best way to assess the potential strengths of each club as painlessly as posible. Am not sure internet stats are 100% reliable in relation to the game so will run a half season demo game and check the stats. The stats I refer to are:

*Inherited players (quality, flexibiblity & salary)

*Club financial resources (Bank balance/financial status, wage/Transfer budget, proportion of wage/transfer budget still available)

*Club facilities (Ground/Stadium, training/youth facilities)

*Colours! (the most imporatant for me - cannot play red on blue / blue on red, grey on white or any other wishy washy or gaudy combos)

*"Reality check" (a Club I feel could one day be Football League without restraints of Geography - although Colwyn Bay appeals!)

Heath, any advice on how I can research this reliably in the meantime?

Just Google through the BSN/BSS clubs. Look at their club data, their histories, then choose who you fancy.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Just Google through the BSN/BSS clubs. Look at their club data, their histories, then choose who you fancy.

Yes of course, I wasnt too sure of the rearcher's interpretation of Clubs finances - wondered if it was easier to assess via the game or by the web. Seems the web is the answer. Am really tempted to play as Harland & Wolff Welders actually, if that NI League is playable in FM12.

[heathxxx]

To be honest, managing the finances of any club in the BSN/BSS is pretty easy once you've sorted the wage bill out.

It's when you get into the league things start to get tough.