Nothing important new in FM since 2007...at least!

[richib]

Stating the obvious is not an insult, the amount of stuff he doesn't know about the game going from his posts is breathtaking. If you see my subsequent posts, I've laid out some very good advice for you re defending this obnoxious idiot.

Asking for a thread delete is actually a good idea though, as the OP made a baseless accusation, and has constantly fought with everyone who has told him how baseless it is. We don't need that on this forum, where the idea is to help each other not troll endlessly with "The game is no good, I know because I'm X who knows nothing about the game."

I am not defending him, trust me. All I am trying to say is, why entertain him? If you go to a performance and they get a reception, along comes an encore?

As for the stating the obvious not being an insult, in fairness it is? An insult doesnt justify an insult. If it does in your books, then how can you complain about his behaviour no matter how many times he has done it? If a tree falls down in a wood, how do you or anyone actually know it has happened if no one is there to actually hear or see it? lol ignore that bit :/

[Brian Shanahan]

I am not defending him, trust me. All I am trying to say is, why entertain him? If you go to a performance and they get a reception, along comes an encore?

As for the stating the obvious not being an insult, in fairness it is? An insult doesnt justify an insult. If it does in your books, then how can you complain about his behaviour no matter how many times he has done it? If a tree falls down in a wood, how do you or anyone actually know it has happened if no one is there to actually hear or see it? lol ignore that bit :/

Sorry but my impression is that you were, why else would you post to defend someone going out of their way to be obnoxious. And yes stating the obvious is no insult IMO, insults being hurtful lies, while what I said is a pretty much, if graphic, assessment of the person's knowledge. I could have said it more diplomatically, but then I don't believe in being diplomatic to people like him, it's a waste of my time and self-control.

I think you're going for the "If a tree in the woods falls and no-one sees it, does it make a sound" zen nonsense (and I'm not insulting zen being a method of achieving nirvana through the contemplation of nonsensical questions). You'll know it happened when you trip over the stump the next day.

Again apologies for the ranting, I misread the meaning of your post and went off like a rocket.

[richib]

Sorry but my impression is that you were, why else would you post to defend someone going out of their way to be obnoxious. And yes stating the obvious is no insult IMO, insults being hurtful lies, while what I said is a pretty much, if graphic, assessment of the person's knowledge. I could have said it more diplomatically, but then I don't believe in being diplomatic to people like him, it's a waste of my time and self-control.

I think you're going for the "If a tree in the woods falls and no-one sees it, does it make a sound" zen nonsense (and I'm not insulting zen being a method of achieving nirvana through the contemplation of nonsensical questions). You'll know it happened when you trip over the stump the next day.

Again apologies for the ranting, I misread the meaning of your post and went off like a rocket.

Thats the badger, mate. I knew it went something like that? lol, which is why I said ignore that one as it went completely wrong :/ And don't say sorry for your "rant" as it wasn't a rant but just a misunderstanding. I just get frustrated with the no need nonsense, that's all. A bad post can be turned into a good post if critique comes in the right form. Express your thoughts etc, but do it right. I tried to share some of my ways of thinking based on the OPs original points, but it just seems that it goes over peoples head when stuff matters and that all that gets noticed is the negative influence.

*Just got promoted from the BSS with Bromley, yay!!!

[wwfan]

Oh and the fact you didn't actually write the code means you didn't really design it, you had the idea, which was then designed and implemented by someone. Your ideas were used. Did you sit alongside him every day he wrote the code? Actualy alongside as he typed?

Good grief! Are you serious? I have to sit next to the coder for the design or inspiration to belong to me? Because that's how all development in every industry works. Not a single Apple component is put together or a line of code written unless Steve Jobs is actually sitting next to the guy doing it. Adrian Newey never lets anyone do anything to the Red Bull cars unless he is standing alongside.

I wrote the design documentation, spoke to the coder prior to and post every development stage, tested it to see if it was working as I had anticipated it would, asked for changes, asked others for suggestions, integrated them when they were good, rinsed and repeated. This all happened in the open FML Beta process. Ov and Paul are phenomenal to work with, because they pick up ideas very quickly and code them brilliantly. However, they coded not created the concepts behind the TC. Of course they improved some aspects of the design, as would be expected from people experienced with coding football simulations, but it was always through communicative collaboration with the others involved.

Although I'd expect the more au fait people on these forums to recognise how much the TC has changed the tactical elements of the game, including decision making dynamism and AI tactical robustness, I'm not surprised that others haven't understood how much is does behind the scenes. If you are focusing on designing a minutely tweaked 'classic tactic' you are going to miss out on all the subtleties of gameplay that accompany the TC. The moment you think the TC is 'dumbing down' FM is the moment you've been lost behind by the development curve. The TC is all about adding dynamism to the match experience, including real life football concepts in tactical design and making in-match decision making the most important element of gameplay. There are areas in which it lacks, specifically not being able to set shouts prior to the match, but it has revolutionised the match experience, for me at least.

[bigdunk]

Oh and the fact you didn't actually write the code means you didn't really design it, you had the idea, which was then designed and implemented by someone. Your ideas were used. Did you sit alongside him every day he wrote the code? Actualy alongside as he typed?

I agree, just like an architect doesn't actually design buildings, he just has the idea, and it's the workmen who actually design it... oh wait

Leeds_Leeds_Leeds, answer one simple question: What does a real-life football manager do, that is currently not included in the game?

[grade]

What people are trying to say, is that there ARE new features. And the ARE important. Maybe not to him, but to others... yes.

For me, Since FM07 (Please excuse if I get some features crossed over) - These are some important new features.... (Remember, for ME. )

- Tactics creator. (Get over yourself. It's new.)

- Dynamic League Reputation

- Customisable Sqaud page

- Newgens. (Again, get over yourself. They're new)

- New Match Engine. (I don't know how many people even knew there was a new ME. And yes, it is NEW).

- Ability to gain staff positions as reputation rises with a club.

- New records and stats. (This could be a mammoth list. You could argue that this is just "improving" on something else, but if you have X stats. And put in new ones, then they're still new. I love stats and figures, it's what the game is all about, and I could elaborate on this subject for hours. But I wont)

- New training module.

So, yeah some of these things were already in the game, but not as they are. And I have it on good authority that everything I have mentioned is NEW and not built on something that was old (mainly regards to training, Match Engine and Tactics Creator).

So to the OP, these may not be ground breaking, or "important" - but to a seasoned FM player like myself, these things were extremely important, and make my gaming experience a hell of a lot better.

To be honest, neither you and Leeds*3 are right.

The tactics Creator it self, the "wizard" isn't new because exists in FM10, but tactics are the same because I use the sliders. So no new Feature, but Improvement. Also Leeds you have classic tactics which you can do like FM07.

Dude, newgens were new feature for a long time. FREDS is newgens. So FM07 had already newgens. So yeah, no new feature, but it is an Improvement.

The training model new? Wrong again, it is an improvement. Meaning that is basically the same, but you can now focus on individual training afew other stuff.

New features is features that didn't exist in last version of the game, like Dynamic League System. Features that already exist in previous games and where added new stuff or upgraded are improvements.

I hope that you and Leeds*3 get this so we can move off the flame war please and have proper discussion.

Also Leeds*3 Press Conferences don't exist in FM07. What you had was one media question prior to each game, where you had one question and could choose 5 optional responses, where you had to select one response. To be honest I prefer this one question then Press Conferences.

[NepentheZ]

To be honest, neither you and Leeds*3 are right.

The tactics Creator it self, the "wizard" isn't new because exists in FM10, but tactics are the same because I use the sliders. So no new Feature, but Improvement. Also Leeds you have classic tactics which you can do like FM07.

Dude, newgens were new feature for a long time. FREDS is newgens. So FM07 had already newgens. So yeah, no new feature, but it is an Improvement.

The training model new? Wrong again, it is an improvement. Meaning that is basically the same, but you can now focus on individual training afew other stuff.

New features is features that didn't exist in last version of the game, like Dynamic League System. Features that already exist in previous games and where added new stuff or upgraded are improvements.

I hope that you and Leeds*3 get this so we can move off the flame war please and have proper discussion.

Also Leeds*3 Press Conferences don't exist in FM07. What you had was one media question prior to each game, where you had one question and could choose 5 optional responses, where you had to select one response. To be honest I prefer this one question then Press Conferences.

I'll address one part, first. "Flame war" - Sorry, what? I think my post was constructed well enough, and detailed enough to count as "proper discussion". This is hardly a flame war.

You again are telling me, like him, that the things I've stated aren't new. They are.

It's like you're saying they can't be new, because they were in the game before. They are still new. They are complete overhauls of sections that were already there. It's just the way it is.

[Leeds_Leeds_Leeds!]

Sliders are the basic input tools. They have to be involved. However, you no longer have to look at them or move them.

What the TC does is ensure that you are following basic logic. The old 'set positions' had Attackers on 20 mentality and Central Defenders on 0 mentality. This breaks tactical unity as the defenders thought the team was back to the walls defending and the attackers thought they were going gung ho for goal. The TC adds base strategies (Overload - Attacking - Control - Standard - Counter - Defensive - Contain) which ensures all the players are on the same strategic wavelength all the time. The dynamism of the system allows you to switch between strategies without breaking the relationships between players, unless you set mentality manually. The various adjustments influence how far your d-line might push up by default, your tempo, your closing down etc. The roles/duties influence how each player does his individual job, which can be altered by the shouts.

It's not about doing something right or wrong when setting a 'def mid'. Its about whether you want the 'def mid' to be an integral element of a dynamically shifting match strategy or a sell-contained entity that doesn't change his game when the rest of the team does. You can obviously workaround this by designing and loading multiple tactics depending on how attacking/defensive you want to be, but the TC and shouts stop you from needing to.

NB The TC has a completely different tactical logic than that used by the AI prior to FM10. Since FM10, the AI uses TC logic and has become far more robust as a result. Since implementation for FM10, there's been an ongoing process of refinement and improvement, but by FM10, the basic system was in place.

So you insist that they are not set positions and set team instructions (albeit dynamic).

The bit in bold above is saying - right, you can create classic tactics, styles of play, set positions, etc etc by setting the sliders yourself, but with this new tactics creator you don't have to, it'll do it for you! So to compare it to something else along this line, training. I can spend all day long adjusting sliders for defenders to make sure they get the best training for their position, then saving those drills. But the 'new' training module will already have defined training for certain positions, so you don't have to do it!

It is exactly the same, your tactics creator is just making it easier to implement certain styles of play, it could still be done before but now it is just easier! I could still get the game to do it the old way though, using sliders etc as you said above in bold! Instead your TC does it for me, hence it is setting things for me is it not?

[grade]

I'll address one part, first. "Flame war" - Sorry, what? I think my post was constructed well enough, and detailed enough to count as "proper discussion". This is hardly a flame war.

You again are telling me, like him, that the things I've stated aren't new. They are.

It's like you're saying they can't be new, because they were in the game before. They are still new. They are complete overhauls of sections that were already there. It's just the way it is.

Oh I'm sorry, for moments in this thread I was thinking I was reading a part of Clash of Titans. Sorry my mistake.

Again your free to see whoever you want to see, but it is quite a shame because you where half right about this. For me most of them are improvements of pre-existing features. Transfers in FM08 had new Transfer system, but hardly quite new feature.

It depends how you define what as new feature is. For you every version is brand new game, for me it is the same old game with several improvements.

[NepentheZ]

Oh I'm sorry, for moments in this thread I was thinking I was reading a part of Clash of Titans. Sorry my mistake.

Again your free to see whoever you want to see, but it is quite a shame because you where half right about this. For me most of them are improvements of pre-existing features. Transfers in FM08 had new Transfer system, but hardly quite new feature.

It depends how you define what as new feature is. For you every version is brand new game, for me it is the same old game with several improvements.

No, you have me mistaken. I'm very aware that they make improvements on some features. But I'm also very aware that the features which I mentioned, were complete overhauls (as in, completely new) of what was there previously.

That is all.

[grade]

Okay. I say Potato, you say potato. Can we leave at that?

[NepentheZ]

Indeed .

[kingjericho]

I gotta say that some new features are honestly bad, like the player/manager conversations. Praising or criticising another manager was so much better in last FMs, as was tutoring. There's too much neatiness and these thing lose its utility. Why do I need to have a meeting with player X, hey you wanna totur player Y? yeah, sure, let's call him, hey player Y, you wanna be tutored? yeah sure. cmon guys

[NepentheZ]

Why do I need to have a meeting with player X, hey you wanna totur player Y? yeah, sure, let's call him, hey player Y, you wanna be tutored? yeah sure. cmon guys

I actually lolled

[Brian Shanahan]

I actually lolled

Me too, I really like the new player interaction module, as it allows you to go deeper with players, and also (usually) gives you feedback on why they may not want to do something.

[NepentheZ]

I lolled because I thought it was funny. Not because I thought it was stupid - Imagine the "cmon guys" in a Will Ferrell voice. Win.