If Only More Results Matched The Stats

[Hammer1000]

I know its my fault, lets get that part ironed out straight away, i dont understand the tactical side of the game at all and understand even less about what i'm supposed to be witnessing via the ME.

Still, if this game was more about what happens on the pitch and the kindof stats it throws up, then at least i could play the game with some level of enjoyment, instead of complete and utter frustration.

Lets face it, i and anyone like me who is deficient in the games tactical side can only get any kind of understanding at all from what goes on on the pitch and if that does'nt make much sense to us then we are up the preverbial creek.

Here are a couple of recent games i have played

Like i've always said, you do get the odd game here and there IRL where the result is hard to believe based on what actualy happened in the match itself, but certainly not to the degree it happens in FM.

I can only go by what is happening on the pitch and even that can be difficult when my players start making the most bizarre decisions that i am somehow supposed to understand as a tactical issue?

I'll post up some more screenshots

[Hammer1000]

Finally a couple of wins, but look at the lengths we had to go to and just about struggled over the line.

[Hammer1000]

Two more defeats, althogh the Man Utd game away is acceptable despite the amount of good chances we wasted.

[Hammer1000]

A solid win

And then another one of these, much like the earlier Sunderland gme.

[Hammer1000]

I just dont know why the game cannot be more about who was the better side, who made the best chances and/or who largely dominated possession in the right areas of the pitch.

At least this way people like myself can still get some enjoyment out of the game despite all the Bugs and other issues.

Why now is the game all about working out what the AI is doing and having to change YOUR style to suit how they play?

[aston_martin]

Some interesting screens there, I won't comment on them specifically as I wouldn't know what to say, I'm a bit lost on the tactical side myself, I do quite well, but I understand when my changes work, not why they work. This is where the game falls down in my opinion, there is not enough feedback from what we see in the ME. There's feedback on what's going wrong through the ass man for example, but he doesn't tell us why. For example, when he says "We are not doing well with possesion, our passing is poor" is not really that helpful, what should be happening is the ass man should be saying something along the lines of "We are not doing well with possesion, our passing is poor, because team A is closing down heavily"

That's the problem with FM imo, it tells us what is going wrong, not why it is going wrong.

I also agree with the last statement. If I'm, for example, Barcelona, and I'm 2-0 up against for example Bolton, just because they start attacking me, shouldn't nessecarily mean that I have to go defensive to stop them scoring, I should still be able to carry on with a relatively attacking outlook and outplay the inferior opposition.

[skimmerman]

Have a look at where you are conceding goals Hammer, are they hitting you on the break, are they coming from crosses, long shots etc. Then you can start to work out what you need to do.Are you Closing down too little or too much, putting too many players up for set pieces, then being hit on the break,do you have many fouls around your box, then they score from free kicks. Just watch all of the game and then you can find your strenghs and weaknesses. Good luck

[Hammer1000]

Have a look at where you are conceding goals Hammer, are they hitting you on the break, are they coming from crosses, long shots etc. Then you can start to work out what you need to do.Are you Closing down too little or too much, putting too many players up for set pieces, then being hit on the break,do you have many fouls around your box, then they score from free kicks. Just watch all of the game and then you can find your strenghs and weaknesses. Good luck

A truck load of long shots usually and if you look at the stats, the AI is scoring an average of 2 goals per CCC created, whilst we are scoring just 1 goal per 3 CCC's created thats one hell of a difference.

[Code]

That's FM. But I can tell you that the results with the stats you have had say you have a good team and a good philosophy. So, for me, it looks just like some individual errors, ungelled team or just poor luck. I know results like that, playing with Cologne in Bundesliga which are like West Ham in Premier League. You just have to wait a couple of games (can be up to 15-20 sometimes...) until the results start go get in.

These screens don't even seem to be exorbitant. I've had some games where the match statistics have been even clearer for me despite losing, but I can't complain, because the results start to come from time to time.

So only what I can say is, have trust to your team and stay away from drastical changes, just hold your line as manager. Results will come, sooner or later, believe me.

[Code]

Have a laugh now, this was my first match after the latest posting

And that is although we won the Champions-Cup three times in a row now. It happens everytime...

Somehow the result doesn't show up, it's 1-1.

[jayahr]

Frankly I's just start by disregarding what the game classes as a ccc. Looking at the mere number of shots you haven't outclasses your ops.

[Code]

But in one point I still have to agree with you, clear cut chances really should be have a larger impact on the goals.

[skimmerman]

A truck load of long shots usually and if you look at the stats, the AI is scoring an average of 2 goals per CCC created, whilst we are scoring just 1 goal per 3 CCC's created thats one hell of a difference.

Move your defence line up 2/3 notches at a time. But remember it will take your defence sometime too get use to the higher D/L.

[Hammer1000]

Well, a day before my next game away to Arsenal my GK and LB were both injured in the weights room, then this happened to my RB after just 5 minutes.

We had even had a great chance before this happened.

Went in at HT 0-0 and coped well, but a 8 minute spell for Arsenal in the 2nd half saw us lose the game 0-4.

[Hammer1000]

Frankly I's just start by disregarding what the game classes as a ccc. Looking at the mere number of shots you haven't outclasses your ops.

You cannot just disregard CCC's, if they did'nt mean anything then they would not be part of the game and nobody said i was outclassing anyone shot wise, although you should notice that the AI do attempt a lot more in the way of long shots than i do.

[skimmerman]

Well, a day before my next game away to Arsenal my GK and LB were both injured in the weights room, then this happened to my RB after just 5 minutes.

We had even had a great chance before this happened.

Went in at HT 0-0 and coped well, but a 8 minute spell for Arsenal in the 2nd half saw us lose the game 0-4.

Its hard to get anything out of arsenal with 11 men never mind 10.

[Code]

Thinking that your reputation is Sunday League ingame, these things will happen to you until an destined point of reputation. If you had a higher reputation, I simply say this will not gonna happen. Sunday League is great and realistic, it doesn't let you overachieve too much but it can be unrealistic at the other side, if you are playing better than your opponnent and lose. If that is a problem for you, you'd better choose a higher reputation level, if you haven't already.

[Hammer1000]

Its hard to get anything out of arsenal with 11 men never mind 10.

I know, although without the loss off my GK, LB and the RB being sent off after 5 mins we may have made more of a fame of it.

[Hammer1000]

Thinking that your reputation is Sunday League ingame, these things will happen to you until an destined point of reputation. If you had a higher reputation, I simply say this will not gonna happen. Sunday League is great and realistic, it doesn't let you overachieve too much but it can be unrealistic at the other side, if you are playing better than your opponnent and lose. If that is a problem for you, you'd better choose a higher reputation level, if you haven't already.

I always start as an Ex International when Managing in the EPL or other top league.

[TheBetterHalf]

IN my experience, players getting trying to get first to the ball when trying to head the ball in from a cross is very often considered a CCC even if he is getting slightly fouled, not being in balance ( alos needs great agility to convert these, not only heading). A player making a 20-35 screamer under no pressure and with very few players in the way of the goal is NOt considered a CCC so that what makes it hard to judge things by looking at the CCCs.

So in the Sunderland and perhaps Tottenham match, their long shots where probably more dangerous than your CCCs

[Hammer1000]

IN my experience, players getting trying to get first to the ball when trying to head the ball in from a cross is very often considered a CCC even if he is getting slightly fouled, not being in balance ( alos needs great agility to convert these, not only heading). A player making a 20-35 screamer under no pressure and with very few players in the way of the goal is NOt considered a CCC so that what makes it hard to judge things by looking at the CCCs.

So in the Sunderland and perhaps Tottenham match, their long shots where probably more dangerous than your CCCs

Ouch, your the last person i would consider disagreeing with, but i think i'd have to on this occasion.

With regards to the Headed ball from cross scenario, dont think i've ever seen this being counted as a CCC, not in my games anyway?

As for any 25-35 yard attempt being counted as a CCC(unless its a tap-in to an empty net) it takes an enormous amount of technique/luck to score from this distance, especially against a top quality GK, but any GK really.

As a rule such goals are rare, but in FM this year it seems to be second nature for every 2nd or 3rd AI goal to come from this kind of effort on goal.

[lam]

This comment is not meant to be sarcastic, but I think you really do need a new striker or at least a replacement for the player that is missing the CCC's.

I tend not to put to much thought into the CCC's as I do not 100% understand what constitutes a CCC. I have seen chances that I would have considered a CCC uncounted and I have seen opportunities that are difficult at best get counted.

The only thing you might want to be carefull of when checking these stats out is to rule out corners. Corners count as attempted crosses and therefore I would imagine a header at goal when unmarked might also constitute a goal attempt.

In relation to possession, unless you are attacking with the majority of possession means nothing. I have beated teams 7-0 when they had 60% possession. They had it, but it was all defensive and played around in their own half.... it didnt mean anything.

LAM

[Hammer1000]

This comment is not meant to be sarcastic, but I think you really do need a new striker or at least a replacement for the player that is missing the CCC's.

I tend not to put to much thought into the CCC's as I do not 100% understand what constitutes a CCC. I have seen chances that I would have considered a CCC uncounted and I have seen opportunities that are difficult at best get counted.

The only thing you might want to be carefull of when checking these stats out is to rule out corners. Corners count as attempted crosses and therefore I would imagine a header at goal when unmarked might also constitute a goal attempt.

In relation to possession, unless you are attacking with the majority of possession means nothing. I have beated teams 7-0 when they had 60% possession. They had it, but it was all defensive and played around in their own half.... it didnt mean anything.

LAM

I make you right about the Striker situation, i like to have one strong striker with good heading ability and one fast striker, West Ham just fall short in this area.

You may well be right about the CCC thing, but when i watch the games i notice we generally create really good chances inside the box, whereas the AI score from just about anywhere.

Possession wise, i do check the Action Zones and even when we do not completely dominate possession during a match we do generally dominate the final third.

Cheers

[higgins]

I tend not to put to much thought into the CCC's as I do not 100% understand what constitutes a CCC. I have seen chances that I would have considered a CCC uncounted and I have seen opportunities that are difficult at best get counted.

Same here, atm I don't know what the ME considers to be a ccc, for example some one on one chances, I would have surely counted as ccc's, are not considered that way.

A useless stat.

[TheBetterHalf]

Ouch, your the last person i would consider disagreeing with, but i think i'd have to on this occasion.

With regards to the Headed ball from cross scenario, dont think i've ever seen this being counted as a CCC, not in my games anyway?

As for any 25-35 yard attempt being counted as a CCC(unless its a tap-in to an empty net) it takes an enormous amount of technique/luck to score from this distance, especially against a top quality GK, but any GK really.

As a rule such goals are rare, but in FM this year it seems to be second nature for every 2nd or 3rd AI goal to come from this kind of effort on goal.

As Lam says, its mostly from corners and I agree that the screamers should not be considered as CCCs ( I think you misunderstood me there) and that they are ehavily overrepresented in FM

[celebritykiller]

Man City beat Arsenal confortably last night with < 40% possession, so it's not best gauge of who "should" win.

[Hammer1000]

Played through the first season eventually finishing 9th.

Here are some results so far from season 2

Game 1

West Ham so close to upset.

Game 2

A deserved win.

[Hammer1000]

A fantastic and deserved win.

A solid win

[Hammer1000]

A Fair result? Spurs had just one shot on target a CCC from a corner.

These are the stats up until the point Faubert was sent off.

Hard enough trying to beat any of the "Big Four" as it is, but we created 4 CCC's to Chelsea's 1, had had more shots on target all inside the Chelsea box and forced them to have a lot of shots from distance, yet still we were behind.

We lost the game 3-1 after Fauberts dismissal.

[DanTheMan999]

I wish I could create a tactic that could create CCC and miss! At the moment I struggle to get even that to work.

I do agree that CCC are misinterpreted in the game engine. However, if the game classes them as a CCC, it means that the game engine expects the striker to score. So really, they should, no matter how ridiculous is seems to us.

I feel rather sorry for you Hammer1000. And I do agree with what you're saying.

[Deep Lying Playmaker]

In my experience even when you get on top of this the AI will adapt. I had this problem at the start of the season in my Blackburn game, after changing thing's around a bit the stats began to resemble what I was seeing in the ME. I thought my problem's were solved, now suddeenly the AI seems to have figured out what I did and is hammering me 4-0 and worse in every game. I've been saying this for a while about FM10, we aren't playing a simulation of Steve Bruce, Harry Redknap and Arsene Wenger we are playing a one size fits all AI witch appears to have all the answers and we are left fumbling in the dark.

[Hammer1000]

I wish I could create a tactic that could create CCC and miss! At the moment I struggle to get even that to work.

I do agree that CCC are misinterpreted in the game engine. However, if the game classes them as a CCC, it means that the game engine expects the striker to score. So really, they should, no matter how ridiculous is seems to us.

I feel rather sorry for you Hammer1000. And I do agree with what you're saying.

Who are you playing as mate?

[Hammer1000]

In my experience even when you get on top of this the AI will adapt. I had this problem at the start of the season in my Blackburn game, after changing thing's around a bit the stats began to resemble what I was seeing in the ME. I thought my problem's were solved, now suddeenly the AI seems to have figured out what I did and is hammering me 4-0 and worse in every game. I've been saying this for a while about FM10, we aren't playing a simulation of Steve Bruce, Harry Redknap and Arsene Wenger we are playing a one size fits all AI witch appears to have all the answers and we are left fumbling in the dark.

Yeah, tbh after a couple of dodgy results after this game our form has improved, but game by game i'm just waiting for it all to go wrong.

[Deep Lying Playmaker]

Yeah, tbh after a couple of dodgy results after this game our form has improved, but game by game i'm just waiting for it all to go wrong.

I've seen a bit more acknowledgement on some of these problem's from SI recently (although not from some other's) maybe it's the first step to admitting to some of the fault's and who knows possibly one day patched back to a balanced game?

[Hammer1000]

C Cup 3rd Round

Harsh

A Win

[RT--]

There are certainly some types of chances (through balls to strikers) that occur too often in the game, so SI will inevitably have had to tone down the chances of them being scored to make sure that the overall goal-rates remain realistic.

So it's possible that a certain type of tactic (let's say in this example, one which has everyone set to 'try through balls = often', though there are probably a few other types as well) could lead to you creating and missing more CCCs than you'd expect.

You have to remember that the AI teams will just be using the 'tactics creator' with the player roles, different philosophies etc, and adjusting their strategy in the game.

So I suppose, if you want to play on a level playing field with the AI and see fewer games where you create bundles of CCCs but miss them all, you'd be better off sticking to the creator and touchline shouts for now.

You do seem to get drawn towards these downloadable tactics that create lots of shots on goal and possession though

[RT--]

Have you got everyone's long shots set to rarely, by the way? That's a very low percentage of long shots

You also seem to complete a lot of crosses!

[Hammer1000]

This next game ia about the luckiest i get at FM, although as you see Blackburn did not make a single really good chance in the whole game.

[Cleon]

You are only looking at some of the misleading stats, to see how you win or lose a game you need to look the individual stats to gain a better undertanding of what's working and whats not. You currently are only looking at half the picture and stats that give you a quick summary of how something is working. To fully understand you need to ignore these stats and judge how good a game you've had on the individual stats instead. I posted this in my Sheffield Project a few weeks ago;

Take a look at these stats from a game I was in. I'm the stats which are on the right and Watford is the ones on the left.

Judging by them stats alone you'd think the game was pretty much an even affair (if you ignore the average rating bit at the bottom) as only the crossing is the only real stand out stat which differs drastically.. But far from it I actually won 1-5 which then brings me onto the next bit about looking at stats. Stats can be misleading if you only view 1 aspect of them. Go a little deeper and into the individual stats from the games and you'll see how it was won and lost. It’s these stats what are vital and you should judge on and alter things based on these. After all they give a much clearer picture as to what really happened in a game.

I'll go into more detail season 2 about these stats and what we can do to improve them if needed. I just want to highlight the fact while I remember and maybe get a few of you thinking about them as well in a bit more detail.

Here are Watford’s stats;

You'll notice the passing completion for Jon Harley and Don Cowie is a bit low.

The look at the tackles column and you'll see Watford made 18 tackles in total winning 12 of them. None of them were key tackles.

If we then take a look at the heading you'll see their MC's and strikers hardly won anything all game, so they offered very little in terms of an aerial threat.

They also made 24 interceptions which isn't all that bad.

Now look at the runs and you'll see not many is there. You'll have an idea of the picture I'm painting here.

Here are my stats from this game;

Straight away it looks like I've misplaced more passes but I still had a 70% completed rate just as Watford did. But I also passed it a lot more than they did so was always bound to be more stray passes.

There is also 1 key point to the 1-5 score line in terms of passing and heading judging by these stats can you see what it is? Look at Watford’s passing for their keeper and defence and you'll see the DC's kept it simple same as mine, but their fullbacks wasn't as involved as my wingbacks. Then look at the heading and you'll my 3 defenders and the wingbacks coped extremely well with the aerial threat.

I made 30 interceptions but look at the contributions from the wingbacks again, heavily involved in attacks and defensive duties when required.

Look at the runs of my front 3, which must be hard to defend against.

I got a few offsides but that's the price you pay sometimes and something I accept as long as I produce results like this.

[Hammer1000]

Completely acceptable defeat, we were poor and i was afraid this was the end for this tactic.

I would not suggest we deserved to win this next match in such fashion as we did, but nonetheless watching the game we certainly deserved the 3 pts.

[Cleon]

I wish I could create a tactic that could create CCC and miss! At the moment I struggle to get even that to work.

I do agree that CCC are misinterpreted in the game engine. However, if the game classes them as a CCC, it means that the game engine expects the striker to score. So really, they should, no matter how ridiculous is seems to us.

I feel rather sorry for you Hammer1000. And I do agree with what you're saying.

No it just means they are chances without pressure from an opposition player.

[Cleon]

I always start as an Ex International when Managing in the EPL or other top league.

That's good for attracting players but I find it adds pressure to the tactical side of game. A big name manager is a big reputation boost so already other teams are looking to get one over you.

Go for Sunday League and you'll fly under the radar.

[DanTheMan999]

Which is surely a time you'd "expect" a player to score in real life, taking into account ability?

[Cleon]

Hammer - You're playing well and having good success even though the match stats are misleading at times. I've just had a quick look at your screenshots and you get a lot of ur shots on target, normally quite a few more than the opposition. It's obvious you know what you're doing but just don't make the mistake of taking the match stats to how the game was won or lost, it is misleading like you already said earlier

[Cleon]

Which is surely a time you'd "expect" a player to score in real life, taking into account ability?

Even the top players in the world miss easy chances all the time.

However I do agree the CCC stat is very misleading and as just added more confusion for most users.

[DanTheMan999]

Oh yes, obviously you're not always going to score, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Sorry if I caused confusion there.

More on topic, too fast play is the only thing I can think of that could cause the results you're getting. Maybe slowing down your tempo might help your strikers?

[Hammer1000]

You are only looking at some of the misleading stats, to see how you win or lose a game you need to look the individual stats to gain a better undertanding of what's working and whats not. You currently are only looking at half the picture and stats that give you a quick summary of how something is working. To fully understand you need to ignore these stats and judge how good a game you've had on the individual stats instead. I posted this in my Sheffield Project a few weeks ago;

Take a look at these stats from a game I was in. I'm the stats which are on the right and Watford is the ones on the left.

Judging by them stats alone you'd think the game was pretty much an even affair (if you ignore the average rating bit at the bottom) as only the crossing is the only real stand out stat which differs drastically.. But far from it I actually won 1-5 which then brings me onto the next bit about looking at stats. Stats can be misleading if you only view 1 aspect of them. Go a little deeper and into the individual stats from the games and you'll see how it was won and lost. It’s these stats what are vital and you should judge on and alter things based on these. After all they give a much clearer picture as to what really happened in a game.

I'll go into more detail season 2 about these stats and what we can do to improve them if needed. I just want to highlight the fact while I remember and maybe get a few of you thinking about them as well in a bit more detail.

Here are Watford’s stats;

You'll notice the passing completion for Jon Harley and Don Cowie is a bit low.

The look at the tackles column and you'll see Watford made 18 tackles in total winning 12 of them. None of them were key tackles.

If we then take a look at the heading you'll see their MC's and strikers hardly won anything all game, so they offered very little in terms of an aerial threat.

They also made 24 interceptions which isn't all that bad.

Now look at the runs and you'll see not many is there. You'll have an idea of the picture I'm painting here.

Here are my stats from this game;

Straight away it looks like I've misplaced more passes but I still had a 70% completed rate just as Watford did. But I also passed it a lot more than they did so was always bound to be more stray passes.

There is also 1 key point to the 1-5 score line in terms of passing and heading judging by these stats can you see what it is? Look at Watford’s passing for their keeper and defence and you'll see the DC's kept it simple same as mine, but their fullbacks wasn't as involved as my wingbacks. Then look at the heading and you'll my 3 defenders and the wingbacks coped extremely well with the aerial threat.

I made 30 interceptions but look at the contributions from the wingbacks again, heavily involved in attacks and defensive duties when required.

Look at the runs of my front 3, which must be hard to defend against.

I got a few offsides but that's the price you pay sometimes and something I accept as long as I produce results like this.

No problem mate, i would'nt argue with that.

I'm just stuck playing this way because i dont know any better, the only changes i make are to use "retain possession" and "pass to feet" if 2 goals up aftr 65 minutes, or 1 goal up in the last 10 minutes.

Until the Human user has much more info regarding how thewhole tactical system works in FM(without spoonfeeding us easy win instructions) then myself and many others are just going to have to continue playing the game in the fashion i do now.

[Hammer1000]

That's good for attracting players but I find it adds pressure to the tactical side of game. A big name manager is a big reputation boost so already other teams are looking to get one over you.

Go for Sunday League and you'll fly under the radar.

The problem i found with having such a low reputation in the EPL is that it takes longer for players to respect you, thus much more difficult to increase morale in the squad and morale drops quicker too after a defeat.

[Hammer1000]

Have you got everyone's long shots set to rarely, by the way? That's a very low percentage of long shots

You also seem to complete a lot of crosses!

Only the Strikers are allowed to shoot from distance now and again, the positions they get themselves into means they are never really shooting from further out than the edge of the area.

[Hammer1000]

Gutted with this result, they just never looked like scoring, whilst we battered the goal and could easily have had 3 or 4.

I have to take the blame for this, i have not been able to rotate the team much because certain players who could be first team contenders have poor morale, so i tried to use this game to make a few changes hoping a good win would improve morale and give me much more ability to rotate.