[Debate/Discussion] AI should figure out your tactics if you play the same

Disclaimer: This does not endorse nor does it support any possibility that the Football Manager game has the ability to allow the AI to figure out your tactics.

The AI tactics has been limited to setting up defensively or countering when you are rampaging people around. It is also based on reputation.

It has been said by a lot of people that AI getting to know your tactics is unrealistic. Now granted that as of now the game does not really have the ability, would it not be realistic? Think about Chelsea against Liverpool where they won 2-0 for a obvious example.

The whole world knew that Liverpool loved to attack and had a lot of defensive problems. Mourinho who is supposed to be a manager of a top team instead time wasted from the first whistle. This was effective in countering Liverpool's attack without any other formation or tactical changes.

If this were to be implemented in Football Manager then it would certainly be a real step closer towards simulating the match. Let's say that based on the Tactical Knowledge of a person it can be something like:

Knowledge Attribute 20

Manager would remember up to 2 alternate tactics used previously by your team and prepare counters before a match. Manager is World Class in making changes during play.

17 to 19

Manager would remember up to 1 alternate tactics used previously by your team and prepare counters before a match. Manager is Very good in making changes during play.

15 and 16

Manager would remember up to 1 alternate tactics used previously by your team. Manager is Very good in making changes during play.

10 to 14

Manager would remember up to 1 alternate tactics used previously by your team. Manager is good in making changes.

Below 10

Manager is below average in making changes during play and remembers up to 1 alternate tactics.

This might sound implausible and I would be very happy to hear others suggest good alternatives.

In the future, I would say it's a good concept, it's how tactics evolve in real life. However, I don't think any AI is close to it yet.

I don't think anyone said it's unrealistic for AI teams to adapt to your tactic. It's just massively complex.

The AI is improving, but what you're asking for is incredibly complex, subjective and will have to differ to take into account different manager personalities.

I think it's manageable at the minute. I can beat teams 4-0 5-0 but then get beat 3-0 using the same tactic. Its a roller coaster for me at the minute haha.

What you ask could take more than 1 year in development.

I would say around 3 years to have a complex AI which not only adapts to your tactics but also creates his tactics based on the squad at their disposal, or try to emulate a sucessfull tactic, rather than having preferred formations.

Sooner or later SI will step in this direction, now all we have to ask ourselves is how soon?

What you ask could take more than 1 year in development.

I would say around 3 years to have a complex AI which not only adapts to your tactics but also creates his tactics based on the squad at their disposal, or try to emulate a sucessfull tactic, rather than having preferred formations.

Sooner or later SI will step in this direction, now all we have to ask ourselves is how soon?

They are already working on the AI, they always are. AI without rubber banding shortcuts is incredibly complex. Because actually to use this template, despite actually being quite an undertaking would still be relatively simplistic, see Hunt3rs. As for how long? As long as it takes.

Yeah it also has to be done in a realistic way. Managers in real life adapt to specific types of play, and don't have the ability per se to "see" another manager's tactic down to the team/player instructions set.

Great stuff here.

In the future, I would say it's a good concept, it's how tactics evolve in real life. However, I don't think any AI is close to it yet.

It is how the game should evolve towards the future. I think that a lot will benefit through this thread.

I don't think anyone said it's unrealistic for AI teams to adapt to your tactic. It's just massively complex.

The AI is improving, but what you're asking for is incredibly complex, subjective and will have to differ to take into account different manager personalities.

It is complex. Which is the reason I have placed a discussion motive. SI should somehow find this useful at the time the features are discussed which is a aim for the discussion.

I think it's manageable at the minute. I can beat teams 4-0 5-0 but then get beat 3-0 using the same tactic. Its a roller coaster for me at the minute haha.

The game is probably the closest to being realistic but the AI managers have much room for improvement.

What you ask could take more than 1 year in development.

I would say around 3 years to have a complex AI which not only adapts to your tactics but also creates his tactics based on the squad at their disposal, or try to emulate a sucessfull tactic, rather than having preferred formations.

Sooner or later SI will step in this direction, now all we have to ask ourselves is how soon?

It will take a long time but this will give SI a good start when ideas are created and actually brainstormed. Community kind of discussions are useful.

There are managers of the mentality of 'I'll play my way and the opposition can worry about us' - I'd suggest it isn't all that often teams change their entire shape/formation just because they're playing against a team playing a specific formation. Of course it does happen in other ways, minor tactical tweak/player roles/specific players being marked.

Football isn't as simple as every tactic has a tactic which will 'work it out' but yeah, I like the idea in principle. I think the level of AI required would be quite large which would potentially slow down the game a fair bit. But yeah, some good ideas in here for the future.

Gentlemen the thread's purpose is already being created! It's great that you find the thread useful for ideas Neil. Having a SI guy read through this and say it's useful is seriously nice.

SI would benefit from the brainstorming community and the gamers would benefit from a great game.

Yeah it also has to be done in a realistic way. Managers in real life adapt to specific types of play, and don't have the ability per se to "see" another manager's tactic down to the team/player instructions set.

Great that you agree. I think this thread would help everyone put their opinions to get greater ideas.

It's great that you started a discussion thread on this. Like I said though, what you're asking for is massively complex.

Maybe what could be done/discussed is simpler AI advances that would make things more realistic. The AI analyzing your tactic is going to be extremely difficult and open to interpretation. Other ideas would be more practical, IMHO, of course.

We're seeing the AI set up more cautiously when your rep increases. We're seeing them attack more at home than away, in general, though it depends who they face. We're seeing changes in-game - them switching to a more offensive tactic when going a goal down. Shutting up shop when getting hammered at half-time. Trying to get back into the game in the later stages.

The AI is already doing all of that (and most likely much more that I haven't mentioned or thought of) but it's more generic. It's not related to your tactic, but rather match circumstances or reputation. Specific tactic analyzing is a step too far, imo.

Post a random tactic up in the tactics forum. I bet you that even the mods (and the other knowledgeable users) will have different ideas and ways of "countering" the formation. They'll all probably be right too.

So the task will be to analyze your specific tactic - and this would have to be possible for all the hundreds of thousands of possible combinations - work out at least a few ways to counter it and then apply one of these ways, depending on the manager's attributes/preferences. This will need to include formation, roles, TIs, PIs and the players (their attributes - strengths and weaknesses) so as you can see it won't be a simple task.

Why this "analyze" model, seems unrealistically complex.

Play the same team, with same tactics, twice in a row, second game the other team is a little stronger. (Just like the way Home makes a team stronger)

It's great that you started a discussion thread on this. Like I said though, what you're asking for is massively complex.

Maybe what could be done/discussed is simpler AI advances that would make things more realistic. The AI analyzing your tactic is going to be extremely difficult and open to interpretation. Other ideas would be more practical, IMHO, of course.

We're seeing the AI set up more cautiously when your rep increases. We're seeing them attack more at home than away, in general, though it depends who they face. We're seeing changes in-game - them switching to a more offensive tactic when going a goal down. Shutting up shop when getting hammered at half-time. Trying to get back into the game in the later stages.

The AI is already doing all of that (and most likely much more that I haven't mentioned or thought of) but it's more generic. It's not related to your tactic, but rather match circumstances or reputation. Specific tactic analyzing is a step too far, imo.

Post a random tactic up in the tactics forum. I bet you that even the mods (and the other knowledgeable users) will have different ideas and ways of "countering" the formation. They'll all probably be right too.

So the task will be to analyze your specific tactic - and this would have to be possible for all the hundreds of thousands of possible combinations - work out at least a few ways to counter it and then apply one of these ways, depending on the manager's attributes/preferences. This will need to include formation, roles, TIs, PIs and the players (their attributes - strengths and weaknesses) so as you can see it won't be a simple task.

Yes I agree. It is a massive ask for the current AI and the game as well. Any kind of discussion is great.

I think the AI could be improved in small improvements as you mentioned.