Midfield of a 433/451

How do people normally set them up? Even though i've been having some success i still can't decide how to set my players up, right now i'm playing this:

FB:Auto

CB:Cover

CB:Stopper

FB:Auto

DMC:Anchor Man

MCl:Adv Playmaker(Support)

MCr:Box to Box(Support)

AML:Winger(Attack)

AMR:Winger(Attack)

STC:Target Man(Support)

The idea is somewhat simple, one destroyer(the anchor man), one passer(the adv playmaker) and one runner (B2B) that will link up with the target man and sometimes run behind the space created by him, now as i said i'm not playing bad but still would like to hear how are other people setting their midfields on this popular formation, eventually i want to have one inside forward instead of a winger but right now i couldn't find anyone suitable for the position and will change the target man to a deep lying forward on support as my team gets better.

Sometimes i feel like there could be a few more roles in the MC position, maybe a CM(attack) is more suited than the B2B for what i'm trying to achieve?

My tactical setup is fairly neutral as I like to add flavour with the type of player chosen so I'm not sure how useful this setup will be:

FBs - FBs, Auto

CBs - CDs, Def

DMC - Defensive Midfielder / Defend - Quick, covering type of DM, expect a simple game in possession.

MCl - Adv PM / Support - The playmaker type, still able to smash up the midfield but the best of the trio with the ball

MCr - Adv PM / Support - An all-round type, slightly more defensive than offensive but still needs to be able to play

AMl - Inside Forward / Att - Still a striker-type but more creative than the other side

AMr - Inside Forward / Att - Out-and-out poacher/striker type

FC - Complete Forward / Att - The attack duty keeps him high up, he needs to have strength, pace & creative ability

I set up balanced, usually on standard. Loads of CF & free roles (the free role setting actually does nothing with this setup but I check it anyway!). It's almost identical to the Barca setup from the TT&F.

If I'm playing weak opposition or outnumber their midfield I might use 2 playmaker types in midfield. If against strong opposition I've used 3 DM/MC types in midfield without worrying too much.

On occasion I'll switch the CF to support and the MCl to attack duties. I may also change the AMl to Adv.PM (supp or att) as well if I'm really feeling fruity.

I rely pretty heavily on reactive management but it mostly stems from the basic premise established above.

The reason i don't like having a lone forward on attack is that i find he gets too isolated, he'll just normally get the ball up the pitch on his own and try to just score goals on his own, still it can work very well if he has good acc,agility and pace but i don't like the sort of chances it creates if it makes any sense, unless he is really good he will normally squander a lot of chances?

Do you get this sort of problem? Or maybe it doesn't happen with the complete forward role i suppose since he will hold the ball and also try through balls.

Also the two adv playmakers but with different "roles", i suppose you tweak them manually?

Completely agree with the lone forward, logically attack shouldn't really work but I want to make the space behind him as large as possible which means I need to pin the opposition CBs as deep as I can get them. This allows space for my 2 MCs to move forward, away from their markers and get in the space. Once in there they have 3 options to hit, as well as each other.

With lots of CF any of the 5 attacking players can use that space. If the FC drops deep then the IF's move beyond him so the formation shifts into a 41212 and leaves the opposing CBs trying to mark 3 players. The IF's often dribble into that space as well. In addition to enlarging that space I often drop deeper to pull all my players back down the pitch and leave space in behind. This leaves the opposing CB's with a real dilemma as they have space to mark both in front and behind, employing a DM helps but means they have 1 less player elsewhere so I might try and attack slightly differently (i.e playing wider, or pushing up, or changing formations, or using playmakers out wide).

I think the key to the way I play is the quality of the Complete Forward, they really do have to be extremely well rounded. They need to be a creative force whilst also being strong enough to mix it with big CB's to keep them where I want them, in addition they also need the pace and goalscoring ability to be a threat themselves. I have found very very few examples of this type of player, for example, I think RvP could probably do a job like this just about but Messi could not. I did try encouraging the FC deep into the hole (as those 2 players play in real life) but it didn't really work for the rest of the team, maybe if I had an extremely technical player like those 2 it would work.

As for the CMs, they are both on standard TC settings, as are all the players. Sandro is my first choice at MCr although I do swap around, whilst Kovacic/Shelvey/Wilshere are in at MCl depending on how much creativity/work rate I want. These players are sufficiently different that with lots of CF they play the roles differently. I often use a very attacking FB at DR with a more conservative one at DL (same tactical settings though) so the MCr must cover for the DR more often than the opposite side. The difference is fairly subtle but its definitely there, so long as the players being used are different enough in their skillset.

Lone forward works on attack when he has a free role from my experience.

Works even better if you make him a TQ, and your Wingers/Inside Forwards are strong finishers.

As for the initial question, I'm currently using: Defensive MF (D), Deep-lying PM (S), Advanced PM (A)

Well, a TQ upfront is really a support role imo, at least it is very different from all the other attack duty options for forwards: a FC trequartista has decreased mentality and no RFD, quite the opposite of the other attack duties.

Generally when I play 4-3-3 I want a deep-lying midfielder (DMC) and another player driving forward (MC on attack duty), just like in 4-4-2. The third player is a role that I change depending on personnel so I might play a ball-winner, advanced playmaker or box-to-box. My favourite is probably centre midfield / automatic. The key, however, is that I have atleast one midfielder that defends and atleast one that attacks.

He still has a much higher mentality than the true Support Roles. His role is as much 100% Attack as it can get as he isn't even told to close down opponents. I'd still class him as an Attack role.

Completely agree with the lone forward, logically attack shouldn't really work but I want to make the space behind him as large as possible which means I need to pin the opposition CBs as deep as I can get them. This allows space for my 2 MCs to move forward, away from their markers and get in the space. Once in there they have 3 options to hit, as well as each other.

With lots of CF any of the 5 attacking players can use that space. If the FC drops deep then the IF's move beyond him so the formation shifts into a 41212 and leaves the opposing CBs trying to mark 3 players. The IF's often dribble into that space as well. In addition to enlarging that space I often drop deeper to pull all my players back down the pitch and leave space in behind. This leaves the opposing CB's with a real dilemma as they have space to mark both in front and behind, employing a DM helps but means they have 1 less player elsewhere so I might try and attack slightly differently (i.e playing wider, or pushing up, or changing formations, or using playmakers out wide).

I think the key to the way I play is the quality of the Complete Forward, they really do have to be extremely well rounded. They need to be a creative force whilst also being strong enough to mix it with big CB's to keep them where I want them, in addition they also need the pace and goalscoring ability to be a threat themselves. I have found very very few examples of this type of player, for example, I think RvP could probably do a job like this just about but Messi could not. I did try encouraging the FC deep into the hole (as those 2 players play in real life) but it didn't really work for the rest of the team, maybe if I had an extremely technical player like those 2 it would work.

As for the CMs, they are both on standard TC settings, as are all the players. Sandro is my first choice at MCr although I do swap around, whilst Kovacic/Shelvey/Wilshere are in at MCl depending on how much creativity/work rate I want. These players are sufficiently different that with lots of CF they play the roles differently. I often use a very attacking FB at DR with a more conservative one at DL (same tactical settings though) so the MCr must cover for the DR more often than the opposite side. The difference is fairly subtle but its definitely there, so long as the players being used are different enough in their skillset.

Furiosuk I am playing as Arsenal and my midfield two or Arteta and Ramsey. Sometimes I will play Frimpong and Arteta if I am playing away from home againist a tough opposition. The problem is that I am always looking for the best combination for my midfield two. How do you find playing with two advance playmakers in central midfiled. I was thinking of trying this with Arteta and Ramsey but I was worried they might both get forward to link up the play leaving my midfield open to the counter attack.

My left back is set to full back attack on the left because I have Gervinho playing as an inside forward cutting from the left. The other full back is set to support because I am playing with winger on attack duty (Walcott or Chamberlain)

Do you think I need to make any changes to my AMR/AML position. If you could offer any advice on the set up of my mdifield two that would also be great

It all sounds good James and should work well. As your DL will get forward more often I'd probably place the more defensive of the midfield pair at MCL to cover more, although your choice at DM will also affect this.

Just check the PPMs of the midfielders, if they both like to Get Forward Often then you might have a problem. You could probably get away with one of them bombing forward in most cases.

I don't know the specific players but I believe they are both very well rounded midfielders with more of an attacking slant than a defensive one (?), if I'm right then the Adv.PM/Support role should suit them down to the ground and I think they'll work fine with the wide player setup. As Walcott & Chamberlain go wide and Gervinho cuts in it could be worth moving MCR into an attack role to encourage him forward more often but just watch and see how that pans out, it'll probably work when you want to nick a goal but maybe not all the time.

If you manually change your Run From Deep (RFD) instructions it's possible to get the midfield to invert from a 1-2 to a 2-1, similar to how Arsenal play in real life (but not quite the same). Get DM to RFD often/default, MCl to rare and MCr to often. You may need to fiddle with mentalities too but if you get it right it's really exciting to watch.

It all sounds good James and should work well. As your DL will get forward more often I'd probably place the more defensive of the midfield pair at MCL to cover more, although your choice at DM will also affect this.

Just check the PPMs of the midfielders, if they both like to Get Forward Often then you might have a problem. You could probably get away with one of them bombing forward in most cases.

I don't know the specific players but I believe they are both very well rounded midfielders with more of an attacking slant than a defensive one (?), if I'm right then the Adv.PM/Support role should suit them down to the ground and I think they'll work fine with the wide player setup. As Walcott & Chamberlain go wide and Gervinho cuts in it could be worth moving MCR into an attack role to encourage him forward more often but just watch and see how that pans out, it'll probably work when you want to nick a goal but maybe not all the time.

If you manually change your Run From Deep (RFD) instructions it's possible to get the midfield to invert from a 1-2 to a 2-1, similar to how Arsenal play in real life (but not quite the same). Get DM to RFD often/default, MCl to rare and MCr to often. You may need to fiddle with mentalities too but if you get it right it's really exciting to watch.

Thanks for that at the moment I have Song playing DM - Defend all his settings are left to TC default apart from is run from deep which is set to rare and long shots rare. I was playing Arteta has a deep lying playmaker support and Ramsey has a advance playmaker attack. From reading your post I will put them both as advance playmakers support and I will drop Arteta mentality a little so he sits deeper than Ramsey. I know Wilshere has the get forward when ever possible PPM so when he gets back from injury I might have un-train that area of his game. I think Arteta has better defensive qualities than Ramsey so I will put him on the MCL position. Could you recommend a good CM to act has back up until Wilshere comes back from injury. Also would van preside play well as a complete forward attack with this set up. Could you recommend any additional see things to the TC set up because I leave everything on default because I am not sure how to use the TC

I'm playing a 4-2-3-1 with one of the DM pushed up. Set up as so:

FB - Att

CB - Stop

CB - Cov

FB - Att

RDM - Anch (D)

LCM - DLP - (D)

AMR - AP (A)

AML - AP (S)

AMC - AP - A

ST - Poach (A)

The DM links up with the Defender on break out, the CM helps on D but also plays some nice passes ahead. The 3 attacking mids work the ball around well and score/set up the poacher. On a 5 match winning streak since I set it up this way.

I think that now i've settled on this system:

Defensive Midfielder (Defend)

Advanced Playmaker (Support)

Central Midfielder (Attack)

I've tried using an anchor man and a deep-lying playmaker(support) for a while but they would play normally too close to each other and would occupy the same area of the pitch, i also changed to a Defensive Midfielder instead of an Anchor Man so he can link up better with the two other midfield players.

I changed one my wingers from attack to an inside forward on support since he is on the side of the full back that gets the ball from GK, i don't know if other people have this problem but i noticed i was losing possession way too often since he would just try to beat his man as soon as he got the ball from the full back besides the decreased runs from deep means he links up better with the midfield and defence on the build up play.

The advantage of playing this formation is the ability to get the ball up the field quickly through both channels since your wingers are already in advanced position. This works for some good counter attacking plays.

You must be playing with a control or higher if you find your winger is trying to beat his marker as soon as possible. Try hold up ball if you want your wingers to wait for support from your midfield. As you do need your mcs to be energetic to provide support quickly for your front 3.

I normally play standard at home and counter or defensive away, very rarely i go above standard unless i'm chasing a goal on the last minutes of the game.

That's a good point you make about having the wingers high up the pitch, it could also be that my players aren't that good yet and they lack the creativity and decisions to make the better option and that's why they lose possession so often, right now the support option seems to be working better but i will probably change back to attack as my team improves.

I'd suggest that it's probably a player issue. I have a striker-type on the wing who will single-mindedly try and attack his opponents with aggressive running at every opportunity which frequently looses possession as you describe, I put up with it because this weakness is also the strength of this player. My more creative and smarter player on the opposite flank (or a replacement) doesn't look to attack so aggressively and succeeds in keeping the ball more often with the exact same tactical setup. It doesn't matter what strategy I employ, the behaviour is solely the nuance of the player playing the role. This might be different if the player in question had less creative freedom and didn't have a free role.

I've found that having the front 3 as:

AML - Inside Forward/Attack

AMR - Winger/Attack

STC - Poacher/Attack

works very well because the winger often finds the AML with crosses unmarked on the far post for an easy header or the AML drops juicy through balls (after cutting inside) for the poacher to run onto. The midfield seems to work well with a dlp/bbm combo (both on support) and a standard DM/D set up. Because of how exposed the very attacking front line can leave you, I leave the fullbacks on support to help control counter attacking opportunities up the wings.

Hate to bump a old thread but i couldn't resist =D

I'm Playing a DLP in defend mode, Supported by 2CM's as Advance Play Makers in support.

This has a nice balance between a good amount of creative freedom whilst also ensuring that forward runs are made slightly later so if the attack breaks down they should be right in the thick of the action if it occurs in the centre of the park. It also has a second function of not crowded my TQ's space as My CM's man markers would then drop into that space earlier to cover off any movement made.

I think the late (and great Steven Fraser) said it the best it's not the role you pick which defines the team it's the player playing in the Role. (I'm paraphrasing of course)

is anchor man really a destroyer?

Obviously it is down to how attacking you want to play, or how your teams reputations is compared to the others, but in my eyes, the wingers are part of the midfield. I want to prevent that the trio in the middle have to do all the hard work, by making it a team effort, they can chime in more creatively I feel. So I put the wingers on Support, and often on "Defensive Winger" as well. It might seem that your Striker will get lonely, but in my situation I'd like to play counter attack, so my Wingers get close enough. Having a Anchor Man/Defensive Midfielder (Defend) (respectively against stronger or weaker opponent) behind a Deep Lying Playmaker (Support) - Box to Box Playmaker (Support) combo they seem to work as a unit but still have enough differentiated roles. I seem to get quite a few upsets this way.