Is possession getting fixed for FM09?

Does anyone know if the issue of ridiculous possession by inferior teams is being fixed in FM09?

Some cases may be realistic, but I'd challenge anyone to tell me that this and this are even remotely realistic!

Sure we still managed to win easily, but FM is about far more than just the final result and watching a game like that was hugely frustrating in many ways and I have seen it go the other way where a team dominates possession like that and wins 0-1 - I never see so much possession in real life from an inferior team

This could be better suited to the tactics forum, but where abouts is this possession taking place? Is it a case that their midfielders are making a large number of short passes in areas of this pitch which are not considered important enough to close down and win the ball from?

I didn't watch this one in full match mode, but judging from that second screenshot it is just their midfielders and defence playing the ball around amongst themselves. I had my whole team on maximum closing down for most of the game, but when they are just passing it around so defensively it appears there's nothing I can do. I shouldn't have to change my entire team to tenacious non-creative midfielders at home to the team bottom of the league just because they are likely to play a totally unrealistic possession game!

I'd agree that those possession stats are unrealistic, but it can be combated by changing your tactics. There's someone in the tactics forum that I know has written a guide on how to do this, it might take a bit of searching for though.

What are the action zones like? I think it's very difficult to get possession if the other team are just passing it around their first two thirds, because there's just more space.

Sometimes this happens in real life. What were your players moral like before the game? would they be bothered to try and close them down all over the pitch? If its meaningless possession in their own half then your midfield would not push up to try and put pressure on them in case they leave huge gaps.

Do you play a counter attacking game? Prehaps your tactics are contradicting themselves. You may be asking them to close down all over the pitch but do not as they are also told to sit back and hit them on the counter? Just a possibility.

In real life if bottom of the league teams started playing short passing game between their midfielders and defenders they would be easy pickings for the better teams as sooner or later they'd mess it up. It doesn't happen in FM though so as a result they can play this annoying tip tap game in their own half whole day long if they wish to. To counter it I'd push up def line, set tempo higher, every attacking player on max closing down, few players on hard tackling, plus tight marking for the backline and defensive minded MF-s. The key is to force them to try a forward pass while making sure that they actually have no options for a successful one.

Good call glamdring.

I've seen you mention this before and it inspired me to start watching matches in full mode from time to time and it's a definate problem. On one occasion I watched Offenbach (who were in the relegation zone) pass the ball 31 times between their back four, in the 80th minute when losing 1-0!!

I actually find it even more irritating that my players seem to stand off and watch it happen. When it comes to creating a chance then my team cose down cosntantly and get stuck in, but when the AI starts this "time wasting" the team just stand off and watch it happen.

To respond to a feew points in random order:

I don't want to go to the tactics forum because I like to devise all my own tactics, even if they are rubbish. This isn't so much about tactics though - it's about the fact that no team in the world (not even the Greek national team!) play like Bologna did in that game so I shouldn't have to play some specific tactic to counter this if I want more possession. A team of our quality should have somewhere close to 50% possession minimum in a game like that.

Regarding action zones I'd have to wait until I get home to confirm that, but it was very much in their half of the field for the most part. Obviously key highlights didn't show most of it, but I doubt their defenders and defensive midfielders were marauding forward into my half and passing the ball around like Brazil without creating anything!

I think I was actually playing maximum attacking mentality, I only ever use counter attacking away from home. Again there may have been some contradictory instructions in amongst my tactics because I'm not a master tactician, but that shouldn't be responsible for Bologna playing that way. Sure they are bottom of the table, but remember this is not a game in which they are drawing 0-0 or holding on to a 0-1, they are getting progressively more and more thrashed as the game goes on. I've seen teams in real life adopt damage limitation tactics, but I've never known that involve just passing the ball around their defence like teams at a World Cup (I think) game years ago where both had qualified from their group and a draw suited both teams.

As for ways to counter this, in the example I gave I didn't need to do any more in terms of getting the result - we won easily so my tactics worked fine to get the result, it's the total lack of realism of the AI-controlled team choosing to play this way that I have a problem with.

I had another example last season where West Ham did something similar - they were defending a 2-0 home leg lead away to Werder Bremen so fair enough that they play defensive to hold on to what they have got, but again in real life I have never seen a team in that situation just sit around passing the ball around their defence for 65% possession. Almost always they are dominated for possession and look to hold onto their lead by sitting deep, men behind the ball and all that. Sure I'm bitter because my ultra-attacking team was kicked into touch by this turgid and awful to watch West Ham team (this game I was watching in all its "glory" in full match mode), but it's just frustrating that the AI's tactics seem unrealistic. Actually in that case we created 20 shots on goal from our 35% possession so their tactics only really worked because we were too profligate infront of goal, but still...

This is just a suggestion, not a solution as I'm sure there are other people who can answer this much better than I can, but could it be that it's your (rather than the opposition's) tactics that are unrealistic and are causing the opposition to play like this?

I'm experiencing that same sort of thing in my game, but not to the same extent. The difference is though, I am playing like that by design, with a counter attacking style of football. It could be worth looking at your tactic very carefully to see if there's anything there which is causing the opposition to do this.

There is a known problem in the Match Engine, where a team can play passes amongst themselves and not get pressed - especially when in their their own half, ora around the halfway line. This is indicated by a couple of the Bologna players 140+ passes in the game. Ludicrous.

I think this issue will be addressed for FM09.

I didn't watch this one in full match mode, but judging from that second screenshot it is just their midfielders and defence playing the ball around amongst themselves. I had my whole team on maximum closing down for most of the game, but when they are just passing it around so defensively it appears there's nothing I can do. I shouldn't have to change my entire team to tenacious non-creative midfielders at home to the team bottom of the league just because they are likely to play a totally unrealistic possession game!

I don't think this is a major problem TBH. I've not noticed it especially.

When you have your players set to maximum closing down, a tactically astute opposition manager will have his players pass the ball at a fast tempo to stop your players gaining possession. If closing down isn't working you should change the tactic at half time or sooner. Change closing down to mixed or "own half" or even "own box only", change YOUR tempo to 25% of the slider (ie, slow) and watch your patient style of play pay dividends.

I always start off playing at the slowest possible tempo with Fiorentina since it is more the Italian style than quick tempo, but in every game, whichever team I am managing I will mix up my tempo during the game if we are not getting the desired effect - i.e. in this case I will crank up the tempo if slow tempo for 45-60 minutes is not working or, playing in e.g. Scotland I may start fast tempo and then slow it down later in the game if fast tempo isn't working.

Certainly my tactics could be partly responsible, but in that case it is still a bug - that a team plays like that just in response to whatever it is I am doing since, in this case, they got thrashed. This has actually only been a problem on the odd occasion with Fiorentina and Weder Bremen, but managing Hibernian in Scotland I have less possession than the opposition every single game, without fail, even in a cup game against Mid Annandale (no, I'd never heard of them either). There I play a 5-3-2 variant very different to my Bremen and Fiorentina tactics and I have a very young team of players who obviously aren't at the level of Fiorentina, but then neither are my opponents. With Hibs I have moved various sliders (mentality, closing down, tempo, etc) up and down throughout the 2 seasons I have been managing them, but we still get dominated for possession. Again though we are still getting the results for the most part, it just seems there is something unrealistic in it.

When I managed Sampdoria I deliberately set my team up to play very slow tempo possession football which we often succeeded in doing, but even then we didn't always manage it even against inferior opponents.

Players don't get pressed 'that' much in their own half anyway IRL. A bit, but generally if they wanted to pass the opposition to sleep like liverpool used to, then it would still be an option.

Players don't get pressed 'that' much in their own half anyway IRL. A bit, but generally if they wanted to pass the opposition to sleep like liverpool used to, then it would still be an option.

They would still have to avoid mistakes while doing that which is what I'm sure bottom of the table teams would struggle with. Otherwise you would see every crap team always doing that against the big boys and holding out for 0-0 draws.

I'm not saying it is an impossible tactic, just that tactics used in the game by AI managers should generally mirror the kind of tactics that are used in real life. There's nothing to stop a real life team just passing the ball around amongst themselves for 90 minutes, but I never see any doing so in a proper game.

the number 1 thing that needs sorting is unrealistic amount of goals.

the number 1 thing that needs sorting is unrealistic amount of goals.

Ok, but this thread is about possession?!

thanks for pointing that out.

thanks for pointing that out.

Oh sorry I assumed you hadn't noticed , I guess since you had it begs the question, why mention another known problem in a thread regarding a completely separate issue rather than add to the other threads about too many goals etc?

i have mentioned this recently. iv only just now finished 1 and a half seasons on fm and this is one of the most anoying things im finding. its so easy to have loads of possesion. i have around 60% every game. scoring is still hard tho.

does it really bother you nomis?

if so, my sincere apologies. was merely pointing out that in my opinion this is not an area that is affecting gameplay hugely. there are bigger things that need attention.

does it really bother you nomis?

if so, my sincere apologies. was merely pointing out that in my opinion this is not an area that is affecting gameplay hugely. there are bigger things that need attention.

It bothers me in the sense that whilst your post was only one, most of the time imteresting threads/debates get lost in a swamp of complaints rather than sticking to the point of the thread i.e. once you say that you get 10 others jumping on the bandwagon/bringing up other issues rather than letting interesting threads continue. So it's not really an issue with yur post, rather an issue with what a post like yours in a thread like this, brings with it lol.

In saying that, i've done the same I suppose so apologies to Glamdring.

Well...tis no worse than having the thread slide down the board

In real life if bottom of the league teams started playing short passing game between their midfielders and defenders they would be easy pickings for the better teams as sooner or later they'd mess it up. It doesn't happen in FM though so as a result they can play this annoying tip tap game in their own half whole day long if they wish to. To counter it I'd push up def line, set tempo higher, every attacking player on max closing down, few players on hard tackling, plus tight marking for the backline and defensive minded MF-s. The key is to force them to try a forward pass while making sure that they actually have no options for a successful one.

To be fair this tactic didn't actually work for Bologna as they were still beaten 4-0 - without more infomation it is probable that Bologna did mess up and each time Fiorentina punished them.

glamdring - if you do think it is wrong (hard to tell without more infomation), you can save the match and post it into the bugs forum and let SI see if there is a problem.

It is something I see regularly though - if it was just one match then I wouldn't care, but it is blatantly obvious from those number of passes in the Bologna midfield that this is a bug...of AI management style if nothing else, but probably a more general issue with possession in the match engine.

I can't remember whether Bologna "messed up" to concede the 4 goals or not (although one was a penalty and I always blow my stack at any player of mine who concedes a penalty!), but they obviously couldn't keep 100% possession so we were just more decisive with the possession we did have. Funnily enough this is one game where my team, lacking possession, was clinical with finishing since we didn't create all that much. I have had plenty of other cases (e.g. the Werder Bremen example I gave) in which we still manage to create boat loads of chances off 35% possession, although many of them were frustrated long shots. In that case obviously we were a lot to blame for our own defeat too, but it is the unrealistic style of play by AI teams that irritates me, unless people have examples of real life teams who regularly just play the ball around their midfield and defense for almost an entire match.

In the game, it is easy to devise a tactic in which two MCs can pass the ball with each other in a relaxing way hundreds of times in a match, boosting the possession percentage unrealistically.

My problem isnt teams having alot of possesion but my self. i see my own players passing it around for fun, tactical instructions seem to differ from previous versions of the game, they have obviously tried to recreate the game play and what each instruction does on the pitch..

It's some hwta anoying each year Si bring a new game out with new features yet the game is loaded with bugs. by the time the next year when the next game is released bugs from the last game are still not fixed. id be happy that Si didnt bring out a new game for a couple years and concentrate on all these bugs b4 they release a new year of Fm, end of day as helpfull as they are to fix the problems they arnt to worried about it because its money in there pockets and wages need to be paid by creating and selling the game..

I'm not attacking the good work the team does at Si, im just stating bugs will most probebly always be there. i just wish they take a step back and test these games a bit better..

The problem is that SI never reveals enough game logic of the match engine. And such logic is subject to change from version to version, or even from patch to patch. A good tactic in one version is perhaps useless in another one. It seems that we are trying in vain to satisfy what the newest match engine supposes us to do, instead of employing our own knowledge about footabll into the game, since the principles of football tactic are not as changeable as the rules set in the match engine.