Is this game Hexxed?

Seriously im doubting the randomness in FM... Its seems more and more that FM is scripted and everything you do is arranged in advance, no matter what choice you make.

First of all, whats the deal with cupdraws. For te past 3 seasons i havent been drawn at home for once!! And to make it even worse i allways draw a topnotch team whilst there are 40 teams which are worse then mine.

Second, whats the deal with the sudden colapses in team morale?? Ive won 7 matches in a row and all of a sudden at home against the number 23 of 24 teams i lose 2-0 via goals which are very weird (crosses or ridiculous long shots) whilst my strikers (who have been suberp with 9 out 10 and 12 out of 10 been missing everything from within the box even de 6 yard box?!?). It seems to me every game is the same. You get a quick goal against you in the first 10 minutes. Then the game changes and you are the better team creating at least 4 or 5 CCC and a hell lot of shots on goal whilst the opponent is walking backwards with theit backs against the wall and then in the last 5 minutes they counter once and they make 0-2... uhm come on thats not bad luck...thats sad scripting....Just finished a game against Stockport...they sit in 23rd place with a run of 8 losses in a row, whilst me AFC Wimbledon just won 7 matches in a row and sit in 5th place... 61% possession for my team. 27 shots for my team. 6 CCC for my team, 1 penalty for my team..... 39% possession for Stockport, 2 shots for Stockport and 0 penalties for Stockport...fancy a guess with the finale score?? lost 0-2 because of own goal (after my DC want to scramble it away and hit my DMC whilst my goalie just stood there and watched how the ball rolled in, at least make him dive for it SI) and a ball which was let go by my goalie on a long ball which i would have caught with my eyes closed.

Third, whats the deal with injuries after you subbed 3 players? It always happens when you are 1-0 up against a much better team and then all of a sudden you have to finish the match with 10 man.

Fourth, whats the deal with 'An instant reply' I have never experienced so much rubbish in my life with a footy. I have turfed my the matches in which a quick goal is followed by an even quicker equaliser within the next 2 minutes. In the 64 matches i played it happend a whopping 43 times!! 43!!! In a complete footy season this will maybe happen 5 or 6 times and look what FM gives us.

Im sorry SI, but i seems to me there has been made a pretty big error as the match engine is concerned. I still love the game, but after my mouse and numerous pencils and pens have been slaughtered im asking myself if this game is as random as it used to be.....

fm isn't random, it reacts to the choices you make, football isn't random its about anticipation. Events in matches are the result of players or managers actions.

Im a long long CM/FM player who has a lot of experience, Ive even won everything there is in an CM/FM game (apart from Singapore Championships and competitions like that). So you could say i know a thing or two about the game. And looking at your respons you are claiming that i make a lot of wrong choices... thats not gonna work in my book. I even write well respected guides about these choices for the dutch FM community

I make the same choices i made with every FM/CM and it always worked. So why wouldnt that work anymore?

Probably because the match engine is different to all the other versions of the game and it needs to e treated as such.

Its because your interpretation of what you think is right, the match engine isnt understanding.

The match engine is a lot more complicated than most people think and missing a few simple things or setting a few sliders incorrectly will cause for the match engine to interpret what you have done as a poor decison.

which is why we need more information from si as to how the match engine works, then there wouldn't be so many issues with people struggling to get the right results.

Im a long long CM/FM player who has a lot of experience, Ive even won everything there is in an CM/FM game (apart from Singapore Championships and competitions like that). So you could say i know a thing or two about the game. And looking at your respons you are claiming that i make a lot of wrong choices... thats not gonna work in my book. I even write well respected guides about these choices for the dutch FM community

I make the same choices i made with every FM/CM and it always worked. So why wouldnt that work anymore?

Well the obvious difference is the removal of sarrows and the meaning of barrows and farrows within the game engine. That alone would suggest that tactically the player needs to get up to speed with 09 in comparison with previous versions. I'd venture to say that other changes have also been made beneath the hood with regards to morale and motivation - certainly this version is testing me far more than any other I've played in that regard.

But if you're unwilling to start your analysis from "is it something I've done wrong?" then there's really not much point posting up perceived 'bugs' and then refusing to accept any of the ideas others put forward as being potential reasons for 'failure'.

Just as a comparison. I'm currently on a 4 match winless streak. I'm controlling possession exceptionally well, I'm creating a whole host of chances but my strikers are not scoring. The reason? I made a huge error in trying to motivate the strikers when they became complacent and so damaged their morale whilst also failing to motivate them - as lower league players have lower stats, I basically went in a little too strongly with my criticism. Now I'm slowly rebuilding their morale and their performances are starting to pick up. Actually just on a break from a match where I'm up 2-1 at half-time with the two most troubled strikers having each scored. Hopefully, that's the end of my bad run and I can push on for a playoff spot up to the BPP in the last 4 games of the season. My fault, not the game's.

Cupdraws I think depends on the stature of the team you have. I am running three games at the mo testing a tactic - Manchester United, QPR and Motherwell. Both QPR and 'Well are drawn both home and away, apparently at random. The Man U game I am in season three. Not once have i been drawn at home in those three seasons thus far.

Injuries after subbing third player I agree. I just dont put all three subs on any more unless in game injuries demand it.

Seriously im doubting the randomness in FM... Its seems more and more that FM is scripted and everything you do is arranged in advance, no matter what choice you make.

Absolutely agree. However, I also believe that Elvis is still alive, the Yeti lives in the woods around the back of the White House, Area 51 is STILL experimenting on the aliens they captured in the 50s, and Princess Di was murdered by MI6 on the orders of Prince Phillip.

Absolutely agree. However, I also believe that Elvis is still alive, the Yeti lives in the woods around the back of the White House, Area 51 is STILL experimenting on the aliens they captured in the 50s, and Princess Di was murdered by MI6 on the orders of Prince Phillip.

Aha, at first I thought you were being sarcastic, but since the last one was true, I changed my mind.

Hang on a minute. What about the bloke on the grassy knoll then when JFK got rubbed out?

Hang on a minute. What about the bloke on the grassy knoll then when JFK got rubbed out?

I thought that had been cleared up. It was JFK himself arranging to put the universe right in a mind-boggling paradox. Or was that an episode of Red Dwarf?

Sounds more like South park

Well the obvious difference is the removal of sarrows and the meaning of barrows and farrows within the game engine. That alone would suggest that tactically the player needs to get up to speed with 09 in comparison with previous versions. I'd venture to say that other changes have also been made beneath the hood with regards to morale and motivation - certainly this version is testing me far more than any other I've played in that regard.

But if you're unwilling to start your analysis from "is it something I've done wrong?" then there's really not much point posting up perceived 'bugs' and then refusing to accept any of the ideas others put forward as being potential reasons for 'failure'.

Well actually i have been seeking the faults within myself at first, why did you think im posting this message here. I've been trying and trying, but having lost the BSS title for the third consecutive time in the last 10 games mad me think... I even made a complete analysis for my players personality's. I've tried to be angry or supportive with them and made up a sketch in which i had a good view of their personality's. Even then a sudden drop of morale is happening at moments in which there is no reason for it. For example a 0-0 match ten minutes in. Im playing at home against the number 17 (im 4th) and whilst everybody is happy and playing ok, someone drops from ok to nervously. Now ok, that can happen if i was mad at him or tried to expect the impossible, but none of that is the case. It just seems to me the motivation is not connected to performances at all, but mainly targeted at some random saying.

You are right about the changes with the barrows and farrows, but still i have tactics in 09 that worked pretty smoothly, but since 9.3 they dont seem to work anymore. And the thing is, if i concede a gorgeous attack with a beautifull finish i can take it on the chin, but when i only concede freakish flukes, i start to doubt not only myself, but the game aswell. If i lose a game in which i am outplayed...Ok, i can live with that. But losing games in which you are by far the better team isnt going into my book, yeah maybe once or twice during a season, but not 4 times in a row on multiple occassions

Third, whats the deal with injuries after you subbed 3 players? It always happens when you are 1-0 up against a much better team and then all of a sudden you have to finish the match with 10 man.

The only thing out of your OP that I agree with you with is this part. I find that happens a tad too often. But it may all just be down to bad luck. Just take it on the chin and get on with the game. I sometimes find playing with 10 men easier to win than playing a 11, simply because the opposition chooses to get forward more, thus leaving more space at the back for me.

Other than that, I disagree with you that FM is scripted or whatsoever. Little tweaks we make during a match can make alot of difference, but the problem is knowing whether we are making the right tweaks. I know you mentioned that you have played this game for a long time, since the CM/FM, so have I, so have many others, but this new match engine is something different altogether, and I doubt many of us can claim to have fully mastered it.

Absolutely agree. However, I also believe that Elvis is still alive, the Yeti lives in the woods around the back of the White House, Area 51 is STILL experimenting on the aliens they captured in the 50s, and Princess Di was murdered by MI6 on the orders of Prince Phillip.

I disagree. Princess Di was murders by a yeti and Prince Philip is the alien from Area 51.

Seriously;

1. Hard cheese old boy, it happens to the best of us. You're talking about 3 seasons, so it's no big deal, if it happened 10 season in a row then i'd be worried.

2. Morale is a funny old thing and could drop due to team talks, training, transfer rumours, manager discipline, results, form etc etc. If one player becomes unhappy then it's likely that others will follow suit.

3. It happens now and then, and by now and then I mean it's happened twice in 10 seasons for me.

4. Again, this happens now and then. I doubt you've seen it more than 10 times in one season.

Seriously im doubting the randomness in FM... Its seems more and more that FM is scripted and everything you do is arranged in advance, no matter what choice you make.... yadda yadda ....

I thinking the connection between your gripe and your username is no coincidence. Maybe you're one of those gamers who watch on key highlights, pay no attention at all to the opposition's tactics and then blame the game when it all goes t*ts up.

Well actually i have been seeking the faults within myself at first, why did you think im posting this message here. I've been trying and trying, but having lost the BSS title for the third consecutive time in the last 10 games mad me think... I even made a complete analysis for my players personality's. I've tried to be angry or supportive with them and made up a sketch in which i had a good view of their personality's. Even then a sudden drop of morale is happening at moments in which there is no reason for it. For example a 0-0 match ten minutes in. Im playing at home against the number 17 (im 4th) and whilst everybody is happy and playing ok, someone drops from ok to nervously. Now ok, that can happen if i was mad at him or tried to expect the impossible, but none of that is the case. It just seems to me the motivation is not connected to performances at all, but mainly targeted at some random saying.

Apologies if my post was a tad sharp. It just seemed that you were ruling things out from the basis of your experience of the game, and sometimes (a fact I frequently have made plain to me on these forums) one can overlook obvious factors or even worse, not realise factors are present which have influenced things. It's something which I would love someone with the time and energy to do - although I think the system may be complex enough to defeat simple answers and explanations but even general guides of 'truisms' would add to other players' knowledge.

One has to remember the quality of player one is dealing with too - I'm pretty certain that motivation seems to function from hidden attributes (slight uncertainty because I don't use an editor so obviously cannot test). Obviously things are very, very context dependant, but would it be a fair guess to say that you put the player under some kind of pressure with your pre-match teamtalk? How were the pre-match odds? While I do agree with those who say that pre-match odds aren't always a good guide to which tactics to use, it does seem that the teamtalks are very much related to those odds in terms of how your players perceive what you say and the pressure you are under. So while you may see that you are 4th and playing 17th and perhaps demand a win, your players may be seeing the pre-match odds which don't justify such a demand and crumbling under the pressure. Throw in players who have less than stellar attributes, and even the slightest mis-step can cause unfortunate consequences. Does that fit the specific context you are referrig to? (SFraser's stickied thread on motivation in the tactics part of the forum is a credit to him and is a good general starting point, although I think it is fair to say much is yet unknown and a matter of guesswork).

You are right about the changes with the barrows and farrows, but still i have tactics in 09 that worked pretty smoothly, but since 9.3 they dont seem to work anymore. And the thing is, if i concede a gorgeous attack with a beautifull finish i can take it on the chin, but when i only concede freakish flukes, i start to doubt not only myself, but the game aswell. If i lose a game in which i am outplayed...Ok, i can live with that. But losing games in which you are by far the better team isnt going into my book, yeah maybe once or twice during a season, but not 4 times in a row on multiple occassions

Freakish flukes annoy the living daylights out of me. However, if there's a flaw in your tactics you will quickly spot it because of the nature of the freakish fluke being scored. I think one has to remember that even the worst players can hit the target with enough time and space - my personal nightmare with flukes was the opposition fullbacks scoring from cross/shots. Improving the closing down on the opposition fullbacks in areas around that area from the 18 yard box to the half-way line on the flanks and getting a keeper who can deal with balls in the air stops such flukes dead; unless your goalkeeper makes a howler - which is clearly flagged in the match commentary as a mistake.

One factor which wwfan has raised on numerous occasions is that it is possible to (accidentally or otherwise) exploit the game engine and the AI's inability to cope with certain tactics. This can lead to ludicrous possession statistics, poor chances being created and very effective AI attacks because the only time you are aware of the flaws in such tactics are when the AI scores - and if the evidence of your eyes and the match stats are telling you that your team is clearly on top, then it can become very frustrating. I know from accidentally using such exploits. This might not be applicable to you but obviously something is going wrong for you at the moment which seems to imply tactical problems.

Just my 2cents and I hope you find the cure for what ails you

"It just seems to me the motivation is not connected to performances at all, but mainly targeted at some random saying."

Ah, I skipped past this post where you say you have had a good go at analysing the game. Sorry. Motivation is not random but it is complex. SFraser has pretty much cracked the way to maximise it - check out his 'A Look at Motivation' thread stickied in the tactics forum. You'll also find very useful guides to team-talks which will help you immensely.

The match engine obviously doesn't cheat, but I can see what the OP is getting at. Sometimes what you see on the pitch just doesn't make any sense.

The match engine will calculate the result on a fair and rational basis, but doesn't always represent this accurately to the user. Often I have made a tactical change that has turned a game in my favour, but all I see on the pitch is the opposition players making incomprehensible decisions and my own players cutting out all the little mistakes. All the relevant stats end up as you'd expect, but the way it pans out on the pitch is completely nonsensical.

Often if you get your tactics wrong you'll go through an implausibly high of matches in which your players inexplicably miss countless easy chances and then opposition score from forty yards. It's impossible to figure out what's going wrong if you base your analysis on what you see in the match.

FM, the game we all love to hate and hate to love!

Getting a good Ass Man with high Motivation, Tactical Knowledge, and Judging CA and PA makes things much easier. Just leave the tedium of the press Conf to him and I usually just go with what he suggests for team talks too. Take time to read his feedback during the game and make adjustments on the feedback where needed.

In my experience even a good ass man is useless at all of those things. His team talks and press conferences destroy my team's moral, and his tactical advice is always to hoof it forward.

Often if you get your tactics wrong you'll go through an implausibly high of matches in which your players inexplicably miss countless easy chances and then opposition score from forty yards. It's impossible to figure out what's going wrong if you base your analysis on what you see in the match.

So if the opposition fullback is consistently scoring from 35 yards with not one of your players within 20 yards of him, you don't think that's a hint that he's getting a bit too much time and space?

If your strikers are consistently missing easy chances, have low morale and are 'playing nervously' then this is not a hint that the problem may be mental and that you need to address that aspect in your teamtalk for the players affected?

If your fullback is consistently hoofing the ball into touch five yards away from himself without an opposition player within 10 yards of him, then this isn't a hint that he needs more passing options by either altering your shape or by increasing his passing range?

If your team is consistently misplacing 5 yard passes when under no pressure, is this a hint that your tempo might be a bit too high?

A combination of watching the positioning of players, of watching the options they choose and following the text commentary gives more than enough answers. Sometimes there just isn't a perfect solution, or even a simple one to problems within tactics and approach to the game - but the idea that it's impossible to read the match engine is ludicrous Misodoctakleidist. You personally may not be able to understand what is going on right now but it doesn't mean that you can't learn how to do it.

Zebedee77,

I don't dispute that there are good reasons why these things happen. I often find the reason eventually and correct it (I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but I am pretty good at the game).

My point is that once the match engine has calculated that a team should have a worse pass completion rate as a result of some particular tactical change - let's say the other team is closing them down more effectively - it often implements it in a nonsensical way. Instead of players misplacing passes after being closed down and having their options restricted, they'll start misplacing passes no matter what the situation - even when they have acres of space and all the time in the world to pick out one of several unmarked team-mates.

I've got to confess that such events have completely eluded my attention - I've certainly not seen a player misplace a pass in such a way as that I'm left blaming AI calculations causing nonsense results to justify the calculations. I've seen misplaced passing which can be improved by altering tempo, I've seen misplaced passing because the player is having a stinker, I've seen misplaced passing because the player's motivation has collapsed (which can be caused by pressure), I've seen misplaced passing because the team has not gelled and I'm encouraging my players to be overly expansive, I've seen misplaced passing because the player has tried to do something smart but not had the technical skills to pull it off, and I've seen misplaced passing when the player has been short of passing options or has had very bad or very difficult ones to try and make. I've not seen misplaced passing that could not be explained by any of the above, and probably more reasons. Which is odd because I tend to notice moments of heavy PC processor usage during matches as the match will slow to a stop and then crawl along at a snail's pace for a couple of minutes.

Perhaps this should be flagged as a bug if you can provide evidence that such a thing does take place?

Do you watch matches in full match mode? I never noticed when I only watched highlights, but since I started watching full matches I have seen things like this happen.

I suppose it is hard to know for sure that it isn't just something that happens in the normal course of a game, but I often get the impression that the flow of a particular match is being made to change in an artificial way.

One particular example I always remember is when my team were struggling in midfield because one of my CMs was extremely tired. I subbed him for a player with fresh legs and sure enough we started to see a lot more of the ball, but it had a lot more to do with my other players cutting out silly mistakes than with anything my substitute CM contributed. We started dominating the game instantly, but it took about ten minutes before he get anywhere near the ball.

It has been hexed since SI refused Tom Gaunt a job. Now they lose the old code every year and have to code it again.

It has been hexed since SI refused Tom Gaunt a job. Now they lose the old code every year and have to code it again.

Care to elaborate SCIAG?

I can believe that the match engine isn't scripted and that a lot of the screamers that are scored against you or the five penalties you concede in three matches are down to poor tactics, but I fully believe that certain off the field events are scripted just to show that "anything can happen in football". When the day before every final I have played at least one key player picks up and injury in training, Now I know that "in the real world" these things happen but it is more than coincidence I think that EVERY final sees you without a key player.

I also have noticed the same types of cup daw as the OP. Third round away to Man U fourth round away to Arsenal. Next season Third round away to Man U. Next season fourth round away to Man U fifth round away to Chelsea.

The only thing out of your OP that I agree with you with is this part. I find that happens a tad too often. But it may all just be down to bad luck. Just take it on the chin and get on with the game. I sometimes find playing with 10 men easier to win than playing a 11, simply because the opposition chooses to get forward more, thus leaving more space at the back for me.

Other than that, I disagree with you that FM is scripted or whatsoever. Little tweaks we make during a match can make alot of difference, but the problem is knowing whether we are making the right tweaks. I know you mentioned that you have played this game for a long time, since the CM/FM, so have I, so have many others, but this new match engine is something different altogether, and I doubt many of us can claim to have fully mastered it.

well maybe the AI managers, the good teams have the best managers, so maybe once they see you made all 3 subs early in the game, they switch to team tackling hard.

I learned not to make my 3rd sub until the 80th minute, it means certain death, or atleast certain ending the game with 10 men if I do it any earlier

Care to elaborate SCIAG?

That's for someone else to work out

It isn't serious.

Do you watch matches in full match mode? I never noticed when I only watched highlights, but since I started watching full matches I have seen things like this happen.

I suppose it is hard to know for sure that it isn't just something that happens in the normal course of a game, but I often get the impression that the flow of a particular match is being made to change in an artificial way.

One particular example I always remember is when my team were struggling in midfield because one of my CMs was extremely tired. I subbed him for a player with fresh legs and sure enough we started to see a lot more of the ball, but it had a lot more to do with my other players cutting out silly mistakes than with anything my substitute CM contributed. We started dominating the game instantly, but it took about ten minutes before he get anywhere near the ball.

Always have watched the matches that way, always will do - although in this version, I'm taking things far slower than I did with eg 05. I certainly am aware of when the opposition has made changes (particularly now with my clunky old PC playing 09) and that's why I'm wondering whether this is a case of drawing different conclusions from the same events?

One of those impossible ones to judge without someone like PaulC commenting or a bug report being logged? I think I've seen something eerily similar to your passing example but that is when pressure over a period of time has caused a player's motivation to disintegrate (which is fairly common in the BSS). You see the player's game just fall apart until something causes him to snap out of it (a match event or a teamtalk etc). There are other explanations too which can be judged from the context.

Your example there could possibly have alternative explanations though I'd hesitate to put forward what I think may have happened because it is reliant on the match engine working in the way hints and tips in previous games have explained it - there's always been some form of impact from influence and determination, and to me that sounds suspiciously like a case of that. I notice a similar impact on my defence if I put my old lag on the pitch who is also the club captain (a D RC). His influence seems to calm things down and restore some order when things are falling apart; especially noticeable with players near to him. Your explanation could be equally viable, but I'm loathe to agree because I do recall several previous versions actually explaining that influence worked like this.

All that said, it's a very long way from saying that the match engine cannot be 'read' or 'understood' from using the tools given. Although I'd definitely agree that much remains obscure and could use some clarifying (such as how influence works and whether there is a 'radius of effect' going on).

Interesting point about Influence. I have been wondering if it works like a reference point on the pitch for players to adapt their positioning to, specifically in defence. There must be some kind of player to player referencing for the off-side trap to be possible, especially when the defence is in motion. This may be a coincidental observation but a recent goal I scored where I broke the off-side trap on the edge of the box involved some interesting distribution of Influential players. The players with the highest Influence on the opposition team were pulled towards the flank to close down my winger with the opposition Centre Back covering the Fullback that was pressing the ball. That Centre Back played my striker on-side despite having an Anticipation of 19. He appeared completely oblivious to the positioning of the other Centre Back and Opposite side Fullback who all had low Influence, and was instead focused on covering the defensive problems being posed by my winger to the high influence players on his flank. Coincidental observation perhaps but Influence is for me the last remaining attribute to understand in terms of Match Impact and by looking out for it's effect with an understanding of its potential and the unexplained mechanisms of the Match Engine in terms of organisation and team positioning, there does seem to be validity in viewing Influence as a means of referencing other players.

A reference point for the defensive line and defensive organisation? Definitely can see where you're coming from. Older versions of the game in the hints/tips described influence as working in a kind of circle from around the influencing player (much as pressing works?), but I've not come across anything which relates it to defensive organisation directly but I assumed that it would have an impact upon the hidden and mental stats of players 'within range' and so the effect would be more indirect? For simplicity's sake, something akin to a modifier - in the lower leagues the impact is on occasion much more visible than in the top leagues, perhaps because of the difference between a hidden stat being modified from non-existant to negligeable is easier to spot than the difference between brilliant and most brilliant?

A reference point for the defensive line and defensive organisation? Definitely can see where you're coming from. Older versions of the game in the hints/tips described influence as working in a kind of circle from around the influencing player (much as pressing works?), but I've not come across anything which relates it to defensive organisation directly but I assumed that it would have an impact upon the hidden and mental stats of players 'within range' and so the effect would be more indirect? For simplicity's sake, something akin to a modifier - in the lower leagues the impact is on occasion much more visible than in the top leagues, perhaps because of the difference between a hidden stat being modified from non-existant to negligeable is easier to spot than the difference between brilliant and most brilliant?

That definately makes a lot of sense. It would explain why players slotting into my defence play like trojans irrespective of ability whereas players slotting into my frontline where I have an absence of Influence and concede general mental ability for specific mental+technical are much less generally capable. It would also help to explain why glaring individual mental deficiencies in players show up as subtle deficiencies during a match given sufficient motivation and why teams in general play like "teams" in terms of overall match awareness across the pitch. For example I am currently playing a match with Santon and Zhirkov as my fullbacks (a tad on the offensive side) with Chiellini as a Centreback and despite there being 5 points difference in Aggression, Bravery and Workrate between the two and between 2-3 points difference in all other mental attributes, there is very little observable difference between their overall performance, technical ability being the only real obvious difference.

However I am unsure if that is the extent of the impact of the Influence attribute, for if you consider the positioning attribute and the D-Line without a means of direct reference to another Centre Back it is difficult for me to understand how the off-side trap can be employed with variations in positioning and decisions. When static, subtle differences in positioning etc. should show up as subtle differences in positions, therefore when in motion these differences should become rather large, yet this is rarely seen. My assumption is that the influence attribute acts as a kind of mobile position indicator for other players, so that players do not positioning themselves according to an "ethereal" line but directly according to the nearest man of highest influence. Rather than have X and Y Centrebacks position themselves according to Z line, X Centreback positions himself according to Y Centreback and they both attempt to hold Z line but not without prior consideration for each others positions.

There is one other point which was the premise of my post on Influence in T&TT and that is that Influence in real life has a habit of swaying decision making. You said that you watch 30+ Liverpool games per season so I am sure that you are aware of the impact of Gerrard on the decision making of players around him. I have watched a few Liverpool games where for example Kuyt is remarkeably prone to giving Gerrard the ball, irrespective of the actual objective benefit of the pass. Gerrard often receives the ball in difficult areas at difficult times simply because other players have seen him, even if there is a better option at the far post or down the line. I produced the FM example of my own low Influence winger being repeatedly ignored by his teammates in my save and while this observation is coincidental it leads to the conclusion that the Influence attribute is a modifier to decision making calculations which is in every way completely football logical, from my perspective.

All in all the Influence attribute remains an unknown but where investigation of the Influence attribute is going it appears to have the potential to be an incredibly subtle yet incredibly potent and perpetually involved modifier and reference point. It is not so obvious as Finishing or Passing or Anticipation and nor is so fundamentally important in each context as the relevant attribute, however it is permenantly in effect and like Teamwork is fundamentally yet un-obviously decisive. Teamwork by the way is another great attribute I love to try and look out for. If it wasn't for my enjoyment of actually playing the game I would test defences involving 20 Positioning and 1 Teamwork in comparison to 1 Positioning and 20 Teamwork. From what I have seen during normal play I think the implimentation of Teamwork in this game is a stroke of genius, perhaps because I cannot quite define it's impact.

It makes sense that defensive organisation would relate to Influence. A leader in the defence would be telling the other players to organise themselves around him. I've long thought that that is the most important role of the captain, marshalling the defence to a line roughly specified by his manager. I can't say I've ever noticed it happening in FM, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.

Just a quick reply as I'm chuckling myself silly at how the USA managed to expose that Spanish right fullback so efficiently.

I can certainly see evidence that influence may well impact upon decision making (isn't decision making a mental stat?). That it may actually 'channel' play is certainly a possibility, but I think I'd shy away from dramatic statements in the absence of exceptionally thorough testing by people with an editor. (In the tactics thread someone did post the results of one test s/he carried out, although I think it might not have been a test which answered the question being asked).

As for influence being a 'mobile indicator' for the defensive line and offside trap, maybe. I'd be more inclined to look at the impact of gelling. My problem with that idea is related to how it is very possible to create 'Sir Robin' tactics where the defenders rush out from their D-line and then rush back to it. This would indicate that the d-line is a fixed concept - although it is certainly not static and is perhaps another 'relative to position of the ball' type concept.

Just a quick twopennothworth. Certainly something to discuss further and something for me personally to focus upon when analysing my matches to see whether my gut feelings and impressions hold up (or not as is likely!).

Zebedee77, i owe you a big thank you for pointing me in the right direction! After I read the guide on motivation i actually feel i have the game under control again. Players dont get nervous anymore and fighting complacence is beginning to have effect. We start to win matches we dont actually deserve to win and those we do deserve...we dominate.

Thanks!

Really glad that you've got to the cause of your problems Lazylen. Thank SFraser for initiating the debate and triggering the exploration of that misunderstood part of the game