FM 2020 4-1-4-1 DM wide help need to make my tacrtic more consistent

[tsatsee]

Hello everyone. 

I think I finally have the time, and determination, to completely make my first working tactic.

My problem is, that it won't work all teh time, but I just don't know, what to change, to play better against some attacking sides. In the screenshots above you see my tactic, my key players, and also some match stats.

Most of the time, I can create chances with through balls, crosses, long shots, small passes in the penalty area. But sometimes, I couldn't create anything against not bigger sides, but against positiv tactics.

 

[Keyzer Soze]

A couple of things a found a bit odd... 

1) you are playing with Juventus, biggest team in Italy... And you are using the "counter" instruction? Why? 99% of the team you will face, at least in domestic league, will sit deep and defend... so how you're gonna counter attack them? 

 

2) why the need to increase tempo when you are already playing with a high tempo mentality? What's the reason? 

 

3) I think, playing with Juventus, you can assume more risk, in particular with your wingbacks. Why don't give an attack duty to the left wingback. 

 

4) not to sure if Dybala is a good choice for your T(a) role. In fact I think it would be better if you go with a IF(s) on that side. 

[tsatsee]

First of all, thank you for your reply, I will try to explain my thoughts about the topics. I am maybe wrong, but this is what I saw ingame

1 : The counter instruction is there, because when I switched it on, I have so much more through balls, and my midfield, an WB get forward faster, after an opposition attack or set piece, and I scored a some goals for through balls to Ronaldo. They are not that deep, because I am not palying high LOE, only Higher Def line, so they tend to move up the pitch more, than they usually do against extremely urgent, and much higher LOE

2 : The tempo incrase is there, becaus I want my players to play fester football, because we have the quality, who can play that, so we are better to break down those defensive signs, before they track bakc

3 : Maybe that could be an issue, but I don't want a player to just run forward, and dribble more, and cross more often, I want my wingbacks on support, so sometimes they overlap, sometimes they are a safe back pass. I should look into it.

4 : Dybala, that is an interesting one. He has a trait, to comes deep to get the ball. With an Inside forward role, even on attack, he is deeper then a Treq, and also can't get enough passes, to work his magic. With treq, he is not that deep, but he better arrive in the final third, than an IF, so this is why he is a Trq for me. And he is working magick seeing those stats, This year even better.

[tsatsee]

Anyone? 

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, tsatsee said:

Anyone? 

Hard to tell, you've just posted random games with the stats

Watch the games & instead of stats use your eyes, who's giving the ball away at vital times? Who's running into dead ends? Do your players have options? Are they creating & using space? Watch the opposition, do they have a player dictating play? Do they have a fast wide man who's running though your team? Is one of there players finding himself in space to receive the ball in dangerous areas?

   

[Experienced Defender]

On 12/09/2020 at 21:38, tsatsee said:

I see in the screenshot of your tactic that you are 1st in the Serie A, which means that the tactic works. Therefore, I really don't see why are you actually asking for help/advice? 

Can the tactic be improved? Yes. But then again, anything can be improved, no matter how good it might already be.

But does it need to be improved (tweaked) when you are topping the league table anyway? I would say - no. At least as long as it works in terms of meeting or exceeding expectations. 

[summatsupeer]

Your 1st so I wouldn't make any dramatic changes.

I think you've made the classic 4141 DM Wide mistake and completely abandoned the AMC area and giving opponents Defensive Midfielder(s) an easy time which defensive teams will often use:

• AF-At leads the line and rarely crops
• IF-Su and TQ-At will mostly be in the left half space area and when they dribble inside no one is really making opponents DMs do anything so they're free to engage the wide forward without leaving another players free.
• CAR-Su moves wider whilst not pushing up
• MEZ-At moves wider and higher into same areas as AMR

Whilst you don't want to end up with your players getting marked by going into congested area where opponents have there Defensive Midfielder(s), if you completely vacate that area your going to be relying on a wing heavy style to create chances.

[CaptCanuck]

Higher D-line with standard LOE, with a front 3 that I am guessing are not that keen on the gritty defensive side of the game and 2 MFs that are not going to engage either? Seems that would be easy for sides like Chelsea and Milan to handle.

You're giving them space and time to come out (even with 'more urgent' IMHO) or pick passes, but also compressing your defensive box to be caught out with longer passes. Are you seeing any over the top chances for the opposition from a DLP to striker? Especially in the Chelsea match, with the 8.7 and 8.8 ratings I am guessing that happened?

Juve are simply too good to not be Serie A winners, but ya for Europe you'll need to do something.

Edited September 14, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[tsatsee]

21 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Hard to tell, you've just posted random games with the stats

Watch the games & instead of stats use your eyes, who's giving the ball away at vital times? Who's running into dead ends? Do your players have options? Are they creating & using space? Watch the opposition, do they have a player dictating play? Do they have a fast wide man who's running though your team? Is one of there players finding himself in space to receive the ball in dangerous areas?

   

Thanks, I saw some issues, after your post, I write it down later.

[tsatsee]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I see in the screenshot of your tactic that you are 1st in the Serie A, which means that the tactic works. Therefore, I really don't see why are you actually asking for help/advice? 

Can the tactic be improved? Yes. But then again, anything can be improved, no matter how good it might already be.

But does it need to be improved (tweaked) when you are topping the league table anyway? I would say - no. At least as long as it works in terms of meeting or exceeding expectations. 

Thank you. Yes the tactic kinda works, but I don't want to just win in serie A, I want to compete in the Champions league.

[tsatsee]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

Your 1st so I wouldn't make any dramatic changes.

I think you've made the classic 4141 DM Wide mistake and completely abandoned the AMC area and giving opponents Defensive Midfielder(s) an easy time which defensive teams will often use:

• AF-At leads the line and rarely crops
• IF-Su and TQ-At will mostly be in the left half space area and when they dribble inside no one is really making opponents DMs do anything so they're free to engage the wide forward without leaving another players free.
• CAR-Su moves wider whilst not pushing up
• MEZ-At moves wider and higher into same areas as AMR

Whilst you don't want to end up with your players getting marked by going into congested area where opponents have there Defensive Midfielder(s), if you completely vacate that area your going to be relying on a wing heavy style to create chances.

Thank you. 

 

I already changed the midfield duo, because of that, and what I've read on another topic. 

Right now, the midfield duo is set a bbm(s) and a cm(a) with more risk PI.

It works much better now, so thanks for your info.

[tsatsee]

27 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Higher D-line with standard LOE, with a front 3 that I am guessing are not that keen on the gritty defensive side of the game and 2 MFs that are not going to engage either? Seems that would be easy for sides like Chelsea and Milan to handle.

You're giving them space and time to come out (even with 'more urgent' IMHO) or pick passes, but also compressing your defensive box to be caught out with longer passes. Are you seeing any over the top chances for the opposition from a DLP to striker? Especially in the Chelsea match, with the 8.7 and 8.8 ratings I am guessing that happened?

Juve are simply too good to not be Serie A winners, but ya for Europe you'll need to do something.

That is something I see sometimes. To try to defend I have my 3 attackers, and one midfilder has a PI to close down more.

[afailed10]

1 hour ago, tsatsee said:

That is something I see sometimes. To try to defend I have my 3 attackers, and one midfilder has a PI to close down more.

I'm using a 4141 on my save atm but my opinion is that there are more effective formations in the current ME. I feel you're playing half your team's potential in a 4141 but i need more testing.

Even the AI is quick to fire managers that use 433 being Liverpool one of the few exceptions but their team is OP and the 4141 is great for UCL where teams don't defend so much.

[tsatsee]

34 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

I'm using a 4141 on my save atm but my opinion is that there are more effective formations in the current ME. I feel you're playing half your team's potential in a 4141 but i need more testing.

Even the AI is quick to fire managers that use 433 being Liverpool one of the few exceptions but their team is OP and the 4141 is great for UCL where teams don't defend so much.

I don't see any other formation where I can use this team. First I was think for the 4231, but in this version I can't get enough from the AM strata, and I can only use 2 cm, but I have 4-5 good cm players.

[afailed10]

17 minutes ago, tsatsee said:

I don't see any other formation where I can use this team. First I was think for the 4231, but in this version I can't get enough from the AM strata, and I can only use 2 cm, but I have 4-5 good cm players.

Ok then I'd start by removing Counter when playing against inferior teams (most of them) and change the CM roles to something more conservative and central. B2B, AP-S, CM-S, along those lines. Give the flanks space for the widemen while keeping opposition DM's busy. This because your offensive trio is quite aggressive already. Ronaldo upfront, then an IF-S who looks to get into the box and a Trequartista. I like to have 2 attacking the box consistently, in my case i have a DLF-A and a RMD-A and a IF-S on the other side but you should test things out regarding the 3 forwards.

[tsatsee]

Thanx, I'll give it a try, but my TQ(a) is rarely attack the box, because Dybala has a PPM to come deep the ball.

[afailed10]

Yea I have the same issue with Almada but i play him in the midfield instead. You could use Ronaldo as a IF-A or RMD on the left and use Dybala as a F9 or leave him as a Treq but he will need space to operate since he comes deep as well.

edit: my last 3 games. Works beautifully against teams that try to play but otherwise I struggle. I guess I'll have to push up lines and pressing to the max against these weak teams.

Edited September 14, 2020 by afailed10