Best approach to play against Liverpool

[Keyzer Soze]

As the title says, what is the best approach to try to play, and win, against teams like Liverpool, that play that 4231 attacking gegenpress tactic?

This is my tactic, playing with Benfica

AF(a)

IF(s)                                           W(s)

DLP(s)       CM(a)

DM(s)

WB(a)       CD(d)      BPD(d)       FB(s)

SK(s)

TI's:

POOD, WBIB, BME, Counter-press, Higher D-Line, Use offside trap, press more. Positive mentality.

 

In fourth season i got Liverpool in the champions league group stage, so i decided to make a alternative save to try different approachs when i face them. So far i've played 10/12 games and lost all . Usually by 3 or 4 goals.

I tend o addopted a low bloc with a positive mentality, to try to attack them in quick counter attacks.... but nothings seems to work. In my last "try" this is the tactic i've used:

AF(a)

IF(s)                                           W(a)

DLP(s)       MEZ(s)

DM(s)

WB(s)       CD(d)      BPD(d)       FB(s)

SK(s)

TI's: POOD, Counter, lower LOE, Press more. Positive Mentality

 

Like i said, i'm now in the fourth season. I have a pretty good Benfica team, and in the last two season i've reach the semi finals in the champions league. So, in terms of players quality, i'm not that far away. But i just can't seem to find out a good strategy to counter teams like Liverpool.

So, how you guys play against those teams? I'm willing to try any kind of sistem.

 

 

[CaptCanuck]

Best? Well that will depend on your squad and your style of course, but for some food for thought, here is how I start matches against "top teams" the majority of the time - as Brighton (now in season 7) which I suspect is similar in quality to your Benfica side. I can change the mentality, left WB to A, CM to S, DLF between S & A, and/or Mez to BBM depending on the situation. I will also play a WB at IF if I want to lockdown at sprightly FB/WB - say TAA for instance :-)

Last season's Champions League QF and SF I beat Man City/Barca a collective 9-2 on aggregate. Liverpool remain - along with Real Madrid - a team that still can deliver a hiding, but I am getting better results (draws, aggregate cup wins, rare league squeaky bum time win).

When we were worse I used a counter-attack as my main tactic and have brought it out on occasion, but I really like to use this flat (not really flat) midfield 3 when I can. I did also hack up that screenshot from an old post as I am at work, incase it looks a bit odd/obviously edited in spots.

Edited September 4, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[Keyzer Soze]

@CaptCanuck

Thks for the input.

Looking at your tactic, it seems that you don't assume a more defensive position against the top teams, and instead you try to play " as equal".

 

[CaptCanuck]

32 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

@CaptCanuck

Thks for the input.

Looking at your tactic, it seems that you don't assume a more defensive position against the top teams, and instead you try to play " as equal".

 

Ya I want to play football against them and not be too deferential. That said Madrid spanked us 5-2 at the Bernabeau to win our CL group this week, as we couldn't stop Haaland and a newgen, and I stuck with things as normal to try and spot where the problems were.

But with regards to Liverpool - at least in my save - their front 3 is so good (not that the whole side isn't) I don't want them being too involved in the play, as it leads to good chances or free kicks near the penalty area. So being too defensive and letting them get into our half before engaging isn't something I want. My midfield 3 (different that pictured here) all have decent to good defensive abilities and excellent mentals, so even the attacking guys can help pitch in and I have a DLF (not pictured here) that has good mentals for pressing so he can lead from the front.

I can see why you want to try the low block, as it can make sense against better attacking sides, but Liverpool was definitely one side I never got it to work against in my earlier seasons, even while having some success with a 4123 counter against the likes of ManU and Spurs. The way Liverpool presses it just lead to them winning possession back in my half (per previous paragraph), than at least trying to make them defend in their own half some.

I was invited to apply for the SLB job two seasons back and didn't get it. Was disappointed as I'd like to manage in Portugal and would have taken the gig and had two saves on the go :-)

Edited September 4, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

@Keyzer Soze - I meant to add, where are you conceding from? I used to get a lot of L-IF cutting inside from Harry Kane (ya the rich getting richer) goals against and a general collapsing into my 18yd box from the right leading to some scrambly ping-ponging around goals too. As like you I used to have a deep setting defender (HB) who helped close off the middle at least.

Edited September 4, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[crusadertsar]

While low block makes sense in real life. It does not in the context of the game. 

[Keyzer Soze]

9 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

@Keyzer Soze - I meant to add, where are you conceding from? I used to get a lot of L-IF cutting inside from Harry Kane (ya the rich getting richer) goals against and a general collapsing into my 18yd box from the right leading to some scrambly ping-ponging around goals too. As like you I used to have a deep setting defender (HB) who helped close off the middle at least.

Pretty much form Averywhwre., but it's there wing plays that destroys my team. Salah, Mane and both fullbacks just rips my team apart. 

[Keyzer Soze]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

While low block makes sense in real life. It does not in the context of the game. 

So what makes sense? Press high? 

[crusadertsar]

21 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

So what makes sense? Press high? 

Not necessarily press high. But maybe split block and a more balanced approach.

[CaptCanuck]

49 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Pretty much form Averywhwre., but it's there wing plays that destroys my team. Salah, Mane and both fullbacks just rips my team apart. 

Ya that reminds me of the first couple years :-)

I'm not really into the 'tactics gymnastics' like in that chap's Ligue 1 thread, but something as simple as man marking TAA with your left IF (assuming you have one who has decent attributes for it) is worth a punt if nothing else for a learning experience to see how it impacts Liverpools attack - if at all. They may just go all in down Robertson's side, but it should at least make them pause some. If that is paired with a more positive or neutral line you may see them work harder to get chances.

As crusader suggests, if going higher LOE/line is not something you are keen on, at least 3 or 4 in attacking spots could press more. If you're a CL qualifying quality team, you sure must be able to play some and should look to do so!

[afailed10]

The best approach is making your strategy stronger than theirs which is quite straightforward but potent nevertheless. They bomb their fb's and press you high so you have to find way to bypass the press, prevent guys like Salah of cutting inside and deal with the crosses.

I lost against them in the first season with Porto but trashed them in the second season playing a quick transition system. Positive mentality, medium block press. But my team was all geared towards the system, dynamics, style of play etc. So you have to plan in advance for the season and build a team along how you want to play. If you do it you'll be much closer to beating them easily.

[Spiegel]

Sitting deep against them doesn't really do much. It just allows their full backs to move higher up the pitch, and more opportunities for them to switch into an overload. 

Marking their full backs with wingers works quite well for me as it reduces workload on your fullbacks. I've also found that defending wider also helps guard against them switching play.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Spiegel
Put fullbacks instead of wingers

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

AF(a)

IF(s)                                           W(a)

DLP(s)       MEZ(s)

DM(s)

WB(s)       CD(d)      BPD(d)       FB(s)

SK(s)

TI's: POOD, Counter, lower LOE, Press more. Positive Mentality

Bolded are the most problematic elements of your tactic IMHO (at least from a defensive perspective). 

[Cleon]

24 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Bolded are the most problematic elements of your tactic IMHO (at least from a defensive perspective). 

Why? You should atleast offer reasons why. Saying the bolded parts are the most problematic without offering the 'why' its kind of pointless and not helpful.

All the TI's you bolded, it is possible they contribute. But on the other hand, all the TI's you didn't bold could be just as problematic. With the shape he is playing and how aggressive he is with the mentality in the tactic you quoted I'd have suggested that is likely a huge factor above all the bolded ones you added. I also don't agree with the roles you bolded, all those roles will defend naturally when possession is lost and he has the added protection of the DM too which allows you to be more aggressive with the roles in front of him, that's the whole point of the role.

As for beating Liverpool it depends really. As you're 4 years into the game they won't be using the same players/set up that they use at the start of the game. It will have evolved somewhat.

In both set-ups you've used they don't really differ and they'll both play more or less the same way even with the subtle role/duty changes you made. If I was you I'd be focusing on who in your side are the weaklinks and the tasks they'll have to do against the players in the Liverpool side who will be marking them and picking them up etc. 

You say player quality isn't that far off, so if that's true then maybe the system you use isn't actually getting the best out of them and their assets in the big games. Maybe focus on that?

[Keyzer Soze]

A little update. 

So following some advice here, decided to adopted a different approach, more similar to my current tactic, but with a less aggressive pressing sistem. 

AF(a)

IF(s)                                           W(s)

DLP(s)       CM(a) 

DM(d) 

WB(s)       CD(d)      BPD(d)       FB(s)

SK(s)

TI's: POOD, WBIB, BMW, higher D-line. Positive Mentality. Press more to the 3 forward guys + CM(a). 

I play 4 games (load and reload the same game) against Liverpool to test it. 

Really like the way we played. And we score goals!!!! 

Lost two games 4-3, and 3-2, won one 4-2 and drew the last 1-1.and this at Anfield. 

So, good attack, horrible defense... But against Liverpool perhaps the only way is attack them and not try to defend. 

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Cleon said:

Why? You should atleast offer reasons why. Saying the bolded parts are the most problematic without offering the 'why' its kind of pointless and not helpful

You are right, but the problem is that I don't always have enough time to go into details. Simply because as a mod I am looking to help as many people as I can here. For that reason, I just listed what in my view could be the most likely issues in the OP's tactic relative to his/her question in order to give the OP some food for thought. That's all. 

[Keyzer Soze]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You are right, but the problem is that I don't always have enough time to go into details. Simply because as a mod I am looking to help as many people as I can here. For that reason, I just listed what in my view could be the most likely issues in the OP's tactic relative to his/her question in order to give the OP some food for thought. That's all. 

I understand that. 

But, if you could have a bit of time, could you please detail a bit more on why those Ti's and duties were a bad choice? 

[Experienced Defender]

55 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I understand that. 

But, if you could have a bit of time, could you please detail a bit more on why those Ti's and duties were a bad choice? 

 

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

AF(a)

IF(s)                                           W(a)

DLP(s)       MEZ(s)

DM(s)

WB(s)       CD(d)      BPD(d)       FB(s)

SK(s)

TI's: POOD, Counter, lower LOE, Press more. Positive Mentality

Okay, let's start with the AMR's attack duty. When you play against a top team - especially one that is particularly potent on the flanks - your fullback needs as much support from his wide partner when defending as possible. That's the reason why I highlighted the attack duty of your RW as potentially problematic. You can mitigate the threat to some extent by telling the winger to mark the opposition FB/WB, but that's usually not as effective as toning his duty down. Especially when you play against world-class players.

The mezzala (and his duty) are then highlighted in direct relation to the above. Because when you switch the winger's duty to support, having "his" CM also on support - especially in the mezzala role - tends to deprive you of attacking penetration more than necessary. Ideally, I would change the mezzala into AP on attack duty, considering the overall context of your tactic (including the formation). Of course, that would basically require changing the DPL into a non-PM role (but still holding or covering one).

In case you want to keep the DLP, a CM on attack duty looks like the most logical option instead of the mezzala. 

When it comes to the DM's duty, I guess it does not need any special explanation. If there is a situation where you need a real holding DM, it is when you play against a top team like LFC. If you want even more safety, consider the anchorman. 

PooD TI can invite too much unnecessary risk, given that you play not just against a gegenpressing 4231 system but also against a team that is extremely adept at playing that style of football. 

More urgent pressing coupled with a high-risk team mentality is also something that can easily backfire against that kind of opposition, even if your vertical compactness is pretty good. 

Hope this helps.

P.S: No approach can guarantee that you will win a top team (or even manage to avoid defeat), but you need to try your best to make your tactic as solid as possible. There is the opposite approach though - go "va banque", attack them from all weapons and pray for the best 

[Keyzer Soze]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

PooD TI can invite too much unnecessary risk, given that you play not just against a gegenpressing 4231 system but also against a team that is extremely adept at playing that style of football.

Thks for the detail explanation. 

I'm going to center in this part, in relation with the PooD instruction. 

My idea was, and because I know they will press very high, to slowly build from the back and then try to explore the fact that they were so much high in the pitch,with the DLP trying some long through balls. 

I know that can be risky, but the other ways I try didn't result. 

For example if I didn't use PooD my goalkeeper just would keep kicking the ball long and it would always end in the feet of Salah or Mane that you run trough my defense. 

If I use distribute to the centerbacks, they would receive the ball and they kick it long under pressure. 

So in the end, it was the solution that I encounter to have a little bit more ball... And if I have the ball... They can't score (unless my defender scores a stupid own goal) 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Keyzer Soze

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I'm going to center in this part, in relation with the PooD instruction. 

My idea was, and because I know they will press very high, to slowly build from the back and then try to explore the fact that they were so much high in the pitch,with the DLP trying some long through balls. 

I know that can be risky, but the other ways I try didn't result. 

For example if I didn't use PooD my goalkeeper just would keep kicking the ball long and it would always end in the feet of Salah or Mane that you run trough my defense. 

If I use distribute to the centerbacks, they would receive the ball and they kick it long under pressure. 

So in the end, it was the solution that I encounter to have a little bit more ball... And if I have the ball... They can't score (unless my defender scores a stupid own goal) 

If you are confident that your players - in the first place defenders and GK - are good enough to keep the ball under so much pressure in an area close to your own goal and penalty area, then go for it