Boosting possession - can anyone help?

[BrickCommo23]

Hi all,

I don't think I have started a thread on here before - but I've run out of ideas to fix this myself so I am hoping for a spot of help!

So, I was following this excellent thread and using it to develop some of my own ideas: https://community.sigames.com/topic/498607-young-devils-home-of-bielsa-total-football-and-brazilian-magic-box-man-utd-fm20-experiment/

 

Broadly speaking - it aims to be solid in defence (seemed a good place to start as I was Arsenal) then create overloads when attacking with pace and width.Tactic is as shown below:

It's never been something that has dominated possession but it did do a good job of dominating territory and goal scoring opportunities. Although we would often have 40% possession - our AvPWB was thoroughly based in the opposition half. Whereas their possession was in their own half and maybe just up to halfway.

For example, with next to no possession we beat City very well at home:

So, what's the point of this thread you ask? Well, with successive patches (and in particular the most recent one) it's basically become rubbish - some more recent examples are below.

What I am hoping for is some guidance that should allow us to maintain (at least some) of our defensive solidity but also increase our possession and therefore, our ability to control games by controlling the ball.

This is probably long enough of an intro but really welcome any thoughts or suggestions to improve this tactic. I am third in the league (mainly due to my earlier season form) but I do think we are not far from being a really strong side (hence this request!)

Thank you!

 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

First off, you cannot expect any particular amount of possession when you combine higher tempo with the attacking mentality. Plus the Be more expressive TI btw.

But even regardless of your possession "issue", I don't see much point in playing such fast football in a very bottom-heavy system like the flat 4141. Simply because you have only 1 player up front, so why would you want to rush the ball forward and put your lone striker - however good he might be - under the pressure of dealing with the opposition defense on his own?

Therefore, I would tone down both tempo and mentality by a notch - positive and standard respectively. On the other hand, shorter passing is okay and makes sense 

I would also remove the whipped crosses and leave them on mixed. Why? Well, you have Haaland up front  

I certainly would not use more urgent pressing together with higher DL, especially under a high mentality, but if you are not struggling defensively - then okay.

Let's now move to roles and duties...

The lone striker and midfield 5 (including the DM anchor) look okay and make sense 

What I would change is - the CWB on attack. Partly because of the clear defensive risk (given that there is also an attacking winger on that flank), but also because I don't see much point in the CWB as a role in this particular system anyway. I would go with either WB on support or IWB on support.

On the left flank, FB on support is basically okay, except for the possibility that you may lack some width in the final third. I would therefore probably opt for WB on support or automatic duty. Given that you play in a bottom-heavy system with 2 roles in the midfield that are supposed to provide defensive cover (anchor and carrilero), having both fullbacks as wing-backs on support duty should not pose (too) much of a risk.

Hope this helps?

[Robson 07]

Agree much with EP's post.  Particularly around mentality and to a degree formation.

Would add to the right side debate.  Do you need a Carrilero?  Complete wing back?  Winger?  None seem particularly fitting to me. 

[Robson 07]

Agree much with EP's post.  Particularly around mentality and to a degree formation.

Would add to the right side debate.  Do you need a Carrilero?  Complete wing back?  Winger?  None seem particularly fitting to me. 

[Bluebird123]

I don't even understand what a carrillero does in a system with wingers. I may be off base here but surely it's a redundant role? I'd only ever use it in a lone wide man system. 

 

Experienced Defender is right, you won't keep the ball with your tempo settings, you're rushing your players for no reason. A winger isn't great for possession (plus Pepe as a winger? he has 10 crossing.. get him cutting inside and scoring, that's what he good at), he's high and wide and probably has the CWB getting in his way. Your players are really disjointed, the Anchor man is going to sit really deep while the mez will stay high in the half space and the carrillero probably does nothing, no-one is recycling the ball when your attacks inevitably break down.

 

Also how good is a BPD going to be on a high mentality? He's going to be very risky with the ball, probably dribbling it up the pitch and smacking it into the flanks, not good for keeping the ball. I would definitely go back through that City match and see how many passes he had, if he's constantly giving the ball away then change the role to a CD

 

You should definitely rethink your mentality, maybe drop it to control and definitely reduce the tempo. Put someone central in the midfield as well, someone who can build attacks with the mez, maybe an AP or DLP? It depends on if you prefer playmakers or not. ALso how good is Luis in your game? I've seen him develop into an incredible passer of the ball (in my save he has 15+ for vision, first touch, passing, technique, work rate), maybe he's too limited as an anchor man.  

[BrickCommo23]

Hi all

I must admit, all the feedback makes complete sense. I think this is one of those situations where I have been tinkering and playing around for so long that I've started to miss the blindingly obvious - particularly tempo/mentality. 

I'll go back and adjust in line with the recommendations so thank you again!

[BrickCommo23]

I have had a rethink and rejig:

- Toned down mentality and tempo

- Swapped the CAR for a standard B2B. Just to add - I had a Carrilero before as I believed he would shuffle side to side to cover the Mez as well as the ultra attacking CWB and MR - may be incorrect on that front though.

- Changed the Anchor Man to a DLP(d) to take advantage of Luis and also (hopefully) have a means of keeping and recycling possession

- Pushed Pepe up and gave him his preferred role. Just to add - he was actually doing OK as a MR as the team was so attacking he invariably played as an AMR

- Put both fullbacks as WB(s) to provide width and hopefully overlap the AML/R (could also consider pushing them to WB(a) given the DLP and B2B roles providing cover

- Bit of a punt here but I have pushed Haaland up to a PF to try and push the opposition back and create space for the Mez, AML/AMR...

I have however kept the 'Be More Expressive' as I think I have the quality of players to use that well and I still want to keep the potential for incisive long passes and general 'unpredictability'

Things I wanted to do but decided to leave for now:

- Give Pepe the PI or 'sit narrower' to create space for Bellerin.

- Change Fernandes to a AP(a) as I wonder if the fact the Mez drifts wider will make him and Olmo (or Sancho) sit on top of each other

- Protect against long through balls by giving Upamecano a cover duty...

Still welcome any thoughts....

[Tyburn]

I’ve always found “work ball into box” boosts possession.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

You are using possession-oriented instructions, but your setup of roles and duties is more suited to counter-attacking and/or fast attacking styles. That's the first thing you need to think about. Try to bring these 2 elements of the tactic into better harmony. 

[llama3]

I think Haaland would complement the system as a whole better as his original CF(S) - this way he will link play better, offer another passing outlet. Right now, I'd expect Pepe to simply run into an area that Haaland already occupies - by dropping off slightly, Pepe can attack the space more. 

[BrickCommo23]

On 15/02/2020 at 15:14, Experienced Defender said:

You are using possession-oriented instructions, but your setup of roles and duties is more suited to counter-attacking and/or fast attacking styles. That's the first thing you need to think about. Try to bring these 2 elements of the tactic into better harmony. 

Sorry, I am going to have to ask...could you explain a little more?

[Experienced Defender]

On 15/02/2020 at 12:30, BrickCommo23 said:

 

35 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Sorry, I am going to have to ask...could you explain a little more?

Of course.

First, let's look at roles and duties. You have the striker, one winger and one CM (mezzala) on attack duties, which basically suits counter-attacking and/or fast attacking styles of play, because you have a fair number of players in advanced positions ready to attack space in front of them as early as possible. Which of course is not wrong in and of itself, but the problem is that such setup does not really go hand in hand with your instructions. Simply because they are very much possession-oriented (except to some degree for the be more expressive).

Why are your instructions possession-based? Well, you can see it yourself:

- shorter passing

- lower tempo

- play out of defence

- take short kicks

- distribute to CBs

All these are obviously possession-friendly instructions. And the only possession-oriented TI that you do not use is work ball into box. But all others are applied. It would not have been that much possession-oriented if you played on the attacking team mentality for example, although it would have some other implications (but that's a different story). 

On top of that you use more urgent pressing coupled with a high d-line + counter-press, which - apart from being defensively risky - means you want to win the ball back from the opposition as quickly as possible. So your defensive instructions are also possession-oriented.

So you need to decide - do you want to play possession football or fast attacking football or counter-attacking? Or maybe some hybrid that combines elements of different styles, but in a more sensible and balanced manner?

If you want a possession style, then you need to adjust roles and duties. If you want a faster style of football, then you need to tweak some instructions.

I hope this helps you understand what I was referring to.

[BrickCommo23]

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Of course.

First, let's look at roles and duties. You have the striker, one winger and one CM (mezzala) on attack duties, which basically suits counter-attacking and/or fast attacking styles of play, because you have a fair number of players in advanced positions ready to attack space in front of them as early as possible. Which of course is not wrong in and of itself, but the problem is that such setup does not really go hand in hand with your instructions. Simply because they are very much possession-oriented (except to some degree for the be more expressive).

Why are your instructions possession-based? Well, you can see it yourself:

- shorter passing

- lower tempo

- play out of defence

- take short kicks

- distribute to CBs

All these are obviously possession-friendly instructions. And the only possession-oriented TI that you do not use is work ball into box. But all others are applied. It would not have been that much possession-oriented if you played on the attacking team mentality for example, although it would have some other implications (but that's a different story). 

On top of that you use more urgent pressing coupled with a high d-line + counter-press, which - apart from being defensively risky - means you want to win the ball back from the opposition as quickly as possible. So your defensive instructions are also possession-oriented.

So you need to decide - do you want to play possession football or fast attacking football or counter-attacking? Or maybe some hybrid that combines elements of different styles, but in a more sensible and balanced manner?

If you want a possession style, then you need to adjust roles and duties. If you want a faster style of football, then you need to tweak some instructions.

I hope this helps you understand what I was referring to.

Lovely, thank you