442 with AF

[Tcufrog]

I have some really great prospects I’d like to give a shot in a 442. Does anyone have experience playing a AF? If so, what role do you pair him with up top? I currently play a defensive 442 with a TM-S paired up with a PF-A. Open to suggestions!

[Experienced Defender]

37 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

I have some really great prospects I’d like to give a shot in a 442. Does anyone have experience playing a AF? If so, what role do you pair him with up top?

AF can work nicely in a 442. Depending on the style of play you want to achieve, you can pair him with different roles in different duties. But for a tactic to work, you need to set up the rest in a proper way as well. Because nothing works in isolation when it comes to tactics. 

 

39 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

I currently play a defensive 442 with a TM-S paired up with a PF-A

What exactly do you mean by "defensive 442"? Can you post a screenshot of your current tactic? That would be very helpful for us to offer you some more meaningful advice.

[Tcufrog]

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

AF can work nicely in a 442. Depending on the style of play you want to achieve, you can pair him with different roles in different duties. But for a tactic to work, you need to set up the rest in a proper way as well. Because nothing works in isolation when it comes to tactics. 

 

What exactly do you mean by "defensive 442"? Can you post a screenshot of your current tactic? That would be very helpful for us to offer you some more meaningful advice.

Thank you for your help.  I've attached all of the key players I want to build around so I'm up for suggestions.  As you can see, I am using one of Rashidi's 4-4-2 formations.  I am not a very talented team, currently 8th in the bundesliga 18 games in.  I am looking to play a counter attacking fairly direct style.

[Tcufrog]

[Tcufrog]

[permanentquandary]

If you want to play 442 you are going to have to go and buy some new midfielders. They must have much higher work rate than your current options.

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

 

10 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I am using one of Rashidi's 4-4-2 formations.  I am not a very talented team, currently 8th in the bundesliga 18 games in.  I am looking to play a counter attacking fairly direct style.

Well, given that you use a tactic from @Rashidi, I guess he is the right person to tell you what in particular you should pay attention to. You need to keep in mind that Rashidi makes occasional tweaks to his tactics, so it's very important for you to understand what you may need to adjust and when. Hopefully Rashidi will be able to find some time and help you 

[Tcufrog]

I’m also up to try a 4123 based on my players skills. Since I don’t have a midfield that can run all over the place, but I have relatively talented players who can attack, I figure if I can buy a better defensive midfielder this could work. I’m up for tactic suggestions if anyone has any based on the player screenshots above. Thank you!

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I’m also up to try a 4123 based on my players skills. Since I don’t have a midfield that can run all over the place, but I have relatively talented players who can attack, I figure if I can buy a better defensive midfielder this could work. I’m up for tactic suggestions if anyone has any based on the player screenshots above. Thank you!

Analyzing your players' profiles from the screenshots you posted, the first thing I noticed is that your team generally lacks aggression and bravery. 

When it comes to the choice of formation, I think the wide 4-1-3-2 would optimally suit your team.

Btw, you did not post screenshots of your 2 strikers - Hodges and Brewster - so I was not able to analyze them.

[Tcufrog]

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Analyzing your players' profiles from the screenshots you posted, the first thing I noticed is that your team generally lacks aggression and bravery. 

When it comes to the choice of formation, I think the wide 4-1-3-2 would optimally suit your team.

Btw, you did not post screenshots of your 2 strikers - Hodges and Brewster - so I was not able to analyze them.

Thank you for your suggestion!  I've never thought about that formation.  My strikers I forgot to include in my initial post are attached.  I have one game left in my season so I am planning for next season.  All three of the attached players are on loan, so I have room for maneuverability.

Do you have any recommended roles I should look to include or styles of play I should lean towards for this wide 4-1-3-2?  I believe I am a good passing team with good strength after analyzing my squad.

Thanks again!

[Experienced Defender]

39 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Do you have any recommended roles I should look to include or styles of play I should lean towards for this wide 4-1-3-2?

Here is a setup I believe would suit your team (standard version):

F9     AF

WMsu        CMat        IWsu

DMsu

IWBde   CDde  CDde   FBat

GK/SKde

Counter-attacking variant:

CFat   AF

WMsu         BBM          IWsu

Ade

FBsu    CDde   NCBde   FBat

GK/SKde

Of course, you need to pay attention to player selection relative to the roles, as well as the mentality and instructions. Because everything is interrelated. 

[Tcufrog]

28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here is a setup I believe would suit your team (standard version):

F9     AF

WMsu        CMat        IWsu

DMsu

IWBde   CDde  CDde   FBat

GK/SKde

Counter-attacking variant:

CFat   AF

WMsu         BBM          IWsu

Ade

FBsu    CDde   NCBde   FBat

GK/SKde

Of course, you need to pay attention to player selection relative to the roles, as well as the mentality and instructions. Because everything is interrelated. 

This looks excellent, thank you for the suggestion. Do you think my LB Gil would work in the IWB position?

[Experienced Defender]

On 08/02/2020 at 17:17, Tcufrog said:

Do you think my LB Gil would work in the IWB position?

Having analyzed his profile, I would rather play him as an IWB on defend than FB on attack duty. 

[Tcufrog]

15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Having analyzed his profile, I would rather play him as an IWB on defend than FB on attack duty. 

Good call. What’s your thought behind changing the F9 to CF-A for the counter tactic? I’m worried about my strikers playing too far up the field and being too isolated from the rest of play. In the one game I played with this tactic so far, I actually set the attacking line to lower for this very reason.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

What’s your thought behind changing the F9 to CF-A for the counter tactic?

Counter-attacking tactics generally work better when both strikers are played on attack duty (provided you use a formation with 2 strikers). You just need to make sure their roles are complementary (and of course befitting the players). Because in counter-attacking football, you essentially want to have players up front that will look to attack the space behind the opposition back-line as early as possible, so as to be ready to receive a counter-attacking pass from deep and make something out of it quickly. 

There could be exceptions in more fluid counter styles, but I think your players are not good enough to play a fluid type of counter-attack. 

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

In the one game I played with this tactic so far, I actually set the attacking line to lower for this very reason

The attacking line ??? What's that? I guess you meant line of engagement?

[Tcufrog]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Counter-attacking tactics generally work better when both strikers are played on attack duty (provided you use a formation with 2 strikers). You just need to make sure their roles are complementary (and of course befitting the players). Because in counter-attacking football, you essentially want to have players up front that will look to attack the space behind the opposition back-line as early as possible, so as to be ready to receive a counter-attacking pass from deep and make something out of it quickly. 

There could be exceptions in more fluid counter styles, but I think your players are not good enough to play a fluid type of counter-attack. 

The attacking line ??? What's that? I guess you meant line of engagement?

Apologies, I meant line of engagement. Great explanation though, that makes a lot of sense!

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

I meant line of engagement

Well, of course you should set the LOE to lower for a counter-attacking tactic anyway 

However, you also need to set the other instructions correctly and always take the mentality factor into account. 

[Tcufrog]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, of course you should set the LOE to lower for a counter-attacking tactic anyway 

However, you also need to set the other instructions correctly and always take the mentality factor into account. 

Good call, I’ll post updates once I have some results to share next season. Will also share signings this summer.

[HanziZoloman]

Nice conversation. @Experienced Defender in the first set you use a F9 as supporting striker, why won‘t you use a DLF?

and what do you expect from the Wide Midfielder, just crossings or something else?

thx 

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

in the first set you use a F9 as supporting striker, why won‘t you use a DLF?

Nothing wrong with the DLF as such. The reasons I preferred the F9 in this particular case are:

- the type of his strikers

- plus. the F9 is a more mobile role than DLF, which can be helpful in this particular formation (with nobody in the AM/WF strata) 

18 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

what do you expect from the Wide Midfielder, just crossings or something else?

Not just crossing, of course. If I wanted to focus on crossing, I would have opted for the winger.

WM is unfortunately a very underrated role by people who play FM, but it's actually a very useful one - precisely because it can offer a bit of everything.

[HanziZoloman]

Thank you!

[Grifty]

I play 4-4-2 with 2 AFs and can get them to both score 20+ each season.

[Tcufrog]

On 09/02/2020 at 11:52, Experienced Defender said:

Well, of course you should set the LOE to lower for a counter-attacking tactic anyway 

However, you also need to set the other instructions correctly and always take the mentality factor into account. 

So I'm three games in against average competition and I've yet to create any chances with this tactic.  I'm 0-3 and my only goal came on a fluke penalty.  Take a look at my tactics below and let me know what you think.  I'm totally lost here... I've made some signings that fit this tactic with higher workrate DM's and a really good AF.  I really appreciate any insight.

[Tcufrog]

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

 

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I inadvertently made a mistake in the setup of roles and duties I suggested - the IW and FB on attack should be on the side of the CF/F9, not the AF. Sorry. 

In terms of instructions - which I did not mention - here is what I would change in the first (counter-attacking) tactic:

- remove the regroup TI (in order to avoid being too passive when defending, given that both the formation and tactic are already pretty defensive)

- remove the pass into space and use it only as a situational instruction, not a regular one (because it can lead to losing possession more often than necessary)

- remove the play out of defence and instead add the Distribution to CBs and FBs (because there is no need to slow play down in a counter-attacking tactic, plus the risk of losing the ball in a dangerous area against teams that press aggressively and high up the pitch)

- add higher tempo (to encourage faster transition of the ball forward, so that the strikers could take advantage of potential counter-attacks as early as possible (once I take the lead, I may drop the tempo back to standard)

Note however that I would use higher tempo only on the balanced or a lower mentality, because on higher ones it's already high enough and thus may not be necessary.

An instruction I would consider adding in this particular tactic is the Focus through the middle, but not necessarily (and certainly not all the time). 

When it comes to player instructions, the AF and BBM would be told to close down more (soft version of split block) - again to avoid being too passive in the defensive phase of play. 

In your other (regular) tactic, the instruction I would immediately remove is the Overlap right. It makes your right right flank needlessly vulnerable defensively without any logical reason, especially as there already is a natural overlap there by virtue of the roles and duties (IWsu and FBat). And once again, the IW and FB on attack should be on the same side as the F9, not the AF.

As for the other instructions, here is what I would change:

- remove the work ball into box (simply because your players are probably not good enough to play in such a manner effectively and without incurring too much risk)

- remove the Counter as a regular instruction and use it situationally instead (for example, when you take the lead and see the opposition have become more attack-minded trying to equalize)

- as in the first tactic, I would rather use the Distribution to CBs and FBs than the play out of defence (assuming your team is not among the better ones in the league)

Other potential tweaks would vary from situation to situation and depending on what you observe on the pitch in a given match.

[XuluBak]

My experience with 442 is fairly limited and skewed by how ridiculously good my team (SL Benfica) was that played it, especially compared to my domestic competition, so hesitant to provide much advice, as I don't know that it'd be applicable for you/most teams. That said...

I'd echo the sentiment of wanting more work rate from your midfield if you're playing 442. Personally, I'm hesitant to stack a two-man midfield, but if @Experienced Defender is suggesting it, I'm sure he's had some success doing it. I admittedly don't think I've used the wide midfielder role, so that may be vital to getting it to work. 

I'm a huge advocate for having a DLP (or extravagant equivalent) in any setup. I'd consider one near vital in a 442 (or similar) where you're looking to launch counters to an AF. My Benfica team wasn't really setup to counterattack (beyond checking that box), but my DLP setup so many vital goals, on the counter or otherwise, especially in the biggest matches, that I can't imagine that team having anywhere near its success without him. My AF-A and IW-A won the biggest awards in Europe, but our DLP was probably my MVP. It was more noticeable when he was out than when either of them were. His contributions to that team's success is probably why I'm such a strong advocate for the role. 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by XuluBak

[XuluBak]

On 10/02/2020 at 04:48, Grifty said:

I play 4-4-2 with 2 AFs and can get them to both score 20+ each season.

That doesn't mean much without context. Is that league only? If not, what competitions? How many matches? Relative competition? Based on your setup, I'm guessing your AFs provide an extremely high % of your goals. I would have considered 20 goals a horrible disappointment from my AF with Benfica, despite getting considerable goal contributions from my wingers and DLF. 

[Grifty]

13 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

That doesn't mean much without context. Is that league only? If not, what competitions? How many matches? Relative competition? Based on your setup, I'm guessing your AFs provide an extremely high % of your goals. I would have considered 20 goals a horrible disappointment from my AF with Benfica, despite getting considerable goal contributions from my wingers and DLF. 

46 games in the championship with Hemel Hempstead expected to finish bottom with a wage budget half that of the team above me. Not many cup games.

AFs get the highest but wingers and centre backs contribute anywhere between 3-10 goals each.

Not really a horrible contribution according that both of my strikers also played for me in League 2. It’s also realistic which I prefer rather than using an exploit tactic to get your Benfica AF to score 40+ every season but each to their own.

[XuluBak]

17 minutes ago, Grifty said:

46 games in the championship with Hemel Hempstead expected to finish bottom with a wage budget half that of the team above me. Not many cup games.

AFs get the highest but wingers and centre backs contribute anywhere between 3-10 goals each.

Not really a horrible contribution according that both of my strikers also played for me in League 2. It’s also realistic which I prefer rather than using an exploit tactic to get your Benfica AF to score 40+ every season but each to their own.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. I build tactics around the players I have, what makes sense to me, and trial and error. My point wasn't "my AF scores more than yours." My point was, you saying your AFs scores X, without any context, doesn't mean much.  It also doesn't really convey whether what's working for you would be applicable for someone else. Can two AFs work? Sure. Is it optimal? I doubt it. I actually started with 2 AFs (because that was optimal for their individual abilities), then switched one to DLF, and found it worked much, much better, for the other AF, and team as a whole. The DLF didn't even see their production drop that much. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by XuluBak

[Tcufrog]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I inadvertently made a mistake in the setup of roles and duties I suggested - the IW and FB on attack should be on the side of the CF/F9, not the AF. Sorry. 

In terms of instructions - which I did not mention - here is what I would change in the first (counter-attacking) tactic:

- remove the regroup TI (in order to avoid being too passive when defending, given that both the formation and tactic are already pretty defensive)

- remove the pass into space and use it only as a situational instruction, not a regular one (because it can lead to losing possession more often than necessary)

- remove the play out of defence and instead add the Distribution to CBs and FBs (because there is no need to slow play down in a counter-attacking tactic, plus the risk of losing the ball in a dangerous area against teams that press aggressively and high up the pitch)

- add higher tempo (to encourage faster transition of the ball forward, so that the strikers could take advantage of potential counter-attacks as early as possible (once I take the lead, I may drop the tempo back to standard)

Note however that I would use higher tempo only on the balanced or a lower mentality, because on higher ones it's already high enough and thus may not be necessary.

An instruction I would consider adding in this particular tactic is the Focus through the middle, but not necessarily (and certainly not all the time). 

When it comes to player instructions, the AF and BBM would be told to close down more (soft version of split block) - again to avoid being too passive in the defensive phase of play. 

In your other (regular) tactic, the instruction I would immediately remove is the Overlap right. It makes your right right flank needlessly vulnerable defensively without any logical reason, especially as there already is a natural overlap there by virtue of the roles and duties (IWsu and FBat). And once again, the IW and FB on attack should be on the same side as the F9, not the AF.

As for the other instructions, here is what I would change:

- remove the work ball into box (simply because your players are probably not good enough to play in such a manner effectively and without incurring too much risk)

- remove the Counter as a regular instruction and use it situationally instead (for example, when you take the lead and see the opposition have become more attack-minded trying to equalize)

- as in the first tactic, I would rather use the Distribution to CBs and FBs than the play out of defence (assuming your team is not among the better ones in the league)

Other potential tweaks would vary from situation to situation and depending on what you observe on the pitch in a given match.

This is great advice, thank you very much! Am I flipping the IW and FB-A in both tactics? And when I do that to the left side of my formation, how do I now set up the right side? I want to make sure I’m making changes in conjunction and I’m not doing more harm than good. Thank you for all of your help, I plan to continue to post my (hopefully better) progress throughout the season

[Tcufrog]

@Experienced Defender Here are my two new tactics based on your recommendations along with my preferred team selections for each.  Please let me know if these changes look correct. Thank you!

Edited February 16, 2020 by Tcufrog

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

Looks okay overall. You don't necessarily need to use the Focus play through the middle all the time, so use it situationally. 

When it comes to roles and duties, I can't remember if I analyzed your players or not? Because ideally, i would play the RB either as a IWBsu or WBsu, but it's possible that your player is not good enough for any of these roles. 

An instruction you may consider - again with caution - is the get stuck in. 

Btw, have you applied the "soft split block" (with the AF and BBM told to close down more)? 

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

This tactic also looks okay as a starting point, but a couple of tweaks will likely be needed in order to more closely define a style of play that optimally suits your players. Watch your matches carefully and tweak accordingly 

[Tcufrog]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Looks okay overall. You don't necessarily need to use the Focus play through the middle all the time, so use it situationally. 

When it comes to roles and duties, I can't remember if I analyzed your players or not? Because ideally, i would play the RB either as a IWBsu or WBsu, but it's possible that your player is not good enough for any of these roles. 

An instruction you may consider - again with caution - is the get stuck in. 

Btw, have you applied the "soft split block" (with the AF and BBM told to close down more)? 

This tactic also looks okay as a starting point, but a couple of tweaks will likely be needed in order to more closely define a style of play that optimally suits your players. Watch your matches carefully and tweak accordingly 

Will do, thanks for your help!

[Grifty]

22 hours ago, XuluBak said:

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. I build tactics around the players I have, what makes sense to me, and trial and error. My point wasn't "my AF scores more than yours." My point was, you saying your AFs scores X, without any context, doesn't mean much.  It also doesn't really convey whether what's working for you would be applicable for someone else. Can two AFs work? Sure. Is it optimal? I doubt it. I actually started with 2 AFs (because that was optimal for their individual abilities), then switched one to DLF, and found it worked much, much better, for the other AF, and team as a whole. The DLF didn't even see their production drop that much. 

The OP asked does anyone have experience playing with AFs and what role do they partner him with. If me saying I play 4-4-2 with 2 AFs with a screenshot of my tactic doesn’t answer that post perfectly, I don’t know what would.

[Tcufrog]

21 hours ago, Grifty said:

The OP asked does anyone have experience playing with AFs and what role do they partner him with. If me saying I play 4-4-2 with 2 AFs with a screenshot of my tactic doesn’t answer that post perfectly, I don’t know what would.

Thank you for sharing.  Unfortunately your tactic looks too attack-oriented for my team's skill-set, but I like the idea! 

[HanziZoloman]

On 16/02/2020 at 20:01, Experienced Defender said:

 

I inadvertently made a mistake in the setup of roles and duties I suggested - the IW and FB on attack should be on the side of the CF/F9, not the AF. Sorry. 

In terms of instructions - which I did not mention - here is what I would change in the first (counter-attacking) tactic:

- remove the regroup TI (in order to avoid being too passive when defending, given that both the formation and tactic are already pretty defensive)

- remove the pass into space and use it only as a situational instruction, not a regular one (because it can lead to losing possession more often than necessary)

- remove the play out of defence and instead add the Distribution to CBs and FBs (because there is no need to slow play down in a counter-attacking tactic, plus the risk of losing the ball in a dangerous area against teams that press aggressively and high up the pitch)

- add higher tempo (to encourage faster transition of the ball forward, so that the strikers could take advantage of potential counter-attacks as early as possible (once I take the lead, I may drop the tempo back to standard)

Note however that I would use higher tempo only on the balanced or a lower mentality, because on higher ones it's already high enough and thus may not be necessary.

An instruction I would consider adding in this particular tactic is the Focus through the middle, but not necessarily (and certainly not all the time). 

When it comes to player instructions, the AF and BBM would be told to close down more (soft version of split block) - again to avoid being too passive in the defensive phase of play. 

In your other (regular) tactic, the instruction I would immediately remove is the Overlap right. It makes your right right flank needlessly vulnerable defensively without any logical reason, especially as there already is a natural overlap there by virtue of the roles and duties (IWsu and FBat). And once again, the IW and FB on attack should be on the same side as the F9, not the AF.

As for the other instructions, here is what I would change:

- remove the work ball into box (simply because your players are probably not good enough to play in such a manner effectively and without incurring too much risk)

- remove the Counter as a regular instruction and use it situationally instead (for example, when you take the lead and see the opposition have become more attack-minded trying to equalize)

- as in the first tactic, I would rather use the Distribution to CBs and FBs than the play out of defence (assuming your team is not among the better ones in the league)

Other potential tweaks would vary from situation to situation and depending on what you observe on the pitch in a given match.

And isn‘t there a lack of creativity? In the standard variant there is no playmaker just the F9 as creative role and in the counter variant there is the B2B as a slightly creative role.

I’ve changed the DM in standard to a DLPsu but then I’m again close to a flat 442.

Very helpful and new to me is using an IWBde as additional support in defending the middle which can easily changed into a su role if my team plays the opponent against the wall and I want to keep pressure high. 
why would you suggest the F9 on a side with IWat and FBat? In your first example it’s the other way around.

thx 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

why would you suggest the F9 on a side with IWat and FBat?

I did not suggest IW on attack, but on support. Only the FB is on attack.

[DaggerPaul]

In the National League while I was managing Yeovil I paired an AF with a TM(s) worked very well. The AF was a young pacey prospect find pockets of space to run at, or, get beyond the opposition defence. He would waste a lot of chances, but I put that down to being raw and his attributes needing developing, he did score about 15 goals in that season.

 

We lined up like this.

                                                                TM(s/a)    P/AF(a)

                                                W(a)        BBM(s)     DLP(s)       W(s)

                                                FB(s)        DC(d)       DC(d)         FB(d)

                                                                           GK(d)

 

Mentality: Positive, which would change to attacking against teams struggling in the bottom 5.

In Possession: More direct passing, also added Pass Into Space at home (long pitch) or away on ground with bigger than standard size.

In Transition: Regroup and Distribute Quickly.

Out Of Possession: Lower Line of Engagement.

Also had a second tactic that was pretty much the same roles and duties but some were a bit more conservative. Also aimed to play on the counter.

Obviously I tried to set it up in way that suited my team, but it probably wouldn't suit your team. Just trying to give some idea on how I got AF working in a 4-4-2.

[HanziZoloman]

Thx but how did TM and AF work together?

[DaggerPaul]

20 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thx but how did TM and AF work together?

The target man would lay off the ball to either the left winger or centre mids to provide a cross or through ball. The default PI 'Moves Into Channels' would find him the space, and where he comes in very useful in a direct passing game is in the discription 'His secondary role is to chase down misplaced through balls or clearances from deep'. 

[HanziZoloman]

Cool! Do you take a TM in a counter tactic?

[Tcufrog]

On 16/02/2020 at 18:31, Experienced Defender said:

Looks okay overall. You don't necessarily need to use the Focus play through the middle all the time, so use it situationally. 

When it comes to roles and duties, I can't remember if I analyzed your players or not? Because ideally, i would play the RB either as a IWBsu or WBsu, but it's possible that your player is not good enough for any of these roles. 

An instruction you may consider - again with caution - is the get stuck in. 

Btw, have you applied the "soft split block" (with the AF and BBM told to close down more)? 

This tactic also looks okay as a starting point, but a couple of tweaks will likely be needed in order to more closely define a style of play that optimally suits your players. Watch your matches carefully and tweak accordingly 

So these tactics have been god awful for me... I'm 14th in the league which is far worse than I've done in the previous seasons.  I'm playing counter against better teams or against teams that play attacking ball against me.  The only goals I score on either tactic are random long shots, set pieces, or long balls over the top that are infrequent.

Defensively, I give up a ton of easy quick passes near the box and my opponents score plenty of clear shots inside the box on me.  Most of the ball movement against me originates from wide areas.

As you can imagine, I'm extremely frustrated and am at a loss for ideas.  I don't tinker much with tactics.  I use the Cleon ideology to try to use different players instead of roles so as not to screw up a system, but as of now this system is failing.

Talent wise, I have plenty of work rate in the middle and great attacking talent, but I can't create consistent good chances against any opponent. Any tips? I'm about to have to scratch this tactic so I don't get canned after climbing up from the 3. Bundesliga.

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

As you can imagine, I'm extremely frustrated and am at a loss for ideas.  I don't tinker much with tactics

 

4 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Talent wise, I have plenty of work rate in the middle and great attacking talent, but I can't create consistent good chances against any opponent. Any tips?

You'll need to post a screenshot of your current (latest) tactic, so that I could see if there is anything glaringly wrong.

[Tcufrog]

28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

You'll need to post a screenshot of your current (latest) tactic, so that I could see if there is anything glaringly wrong.

Please see attached, the only changes I've made were based on your recommendations.  Thank you for your help

[Rashidi]

Been busy lately involved with some different projects. But just looking at the first tactic that was linked I think you made some inherent mistakes with a counterattacking system. The first system wasn't all that bad, it just had to tweak some team instructions.

Work ball into box - not very useful for CA systems, because teams will settle into defence, so use hit early cross instead
Changing the role to an AF was a good shoutout in which case I would also have told the TM to go on attack duty. The system is generally playing a compact block with the way the duties are being used.
You can afford to play with a slightly higher defensive line because whenever you use DMs your formation is naturally going to be deeper.

By the way I never play counterattacking tactics with only one attack duty in the final third. I usually have 2, and if its in a 442, most likely the 2 strikers.

For some of your other systems you have used distribute to centre backs and fullbacks, for CA systems you tend to get pressed high, so I tend to play it out quick to my fullbacks who can usually take advantage of the press.

[Rashidi]

Noticed your last system has an F9, I would hesitate because any quick counterattack and you are asking him to do maybe a bit too much. Again a TM. PF, even a DLF(A) is a better option and you can consider the early cross. That would benefit any strike pair that wants to break for the box early.

[Tcufrog]

5 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Noticed your last system has an F9, I would hesitate because any quick counterattack and you are asking him to do maybe a bit too much. Again a TM. PF, even a DLF(A) is a better option and you can consider the early cross. That would benefit any strike pair that wants to break for the box early.

Thank you for your feedback Rashidi. I ditched the original tactic with the work ball into box and my tactic I just posted with the F9 is not my counter tactic. With both my counter and normal 4-1-3-2 tactics, I can’t create any good chances. My players don’t have any PI’s that would negatively influence here so I’m at a loss for ideas. Even with my counter tactic, I can’t create good chances for my attack outside of the occasional long ball over the top. At this point I’m just trying to get back on the right track. I’m more familiar with the 4-4-2, but I’ve moved away from a target man so my original tactic is out of the question now.

Thanks for your help!

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

 

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

the only changes I've made were based on your recommendations

Okay, but I said that you'll need to make some tweaks probably. And did not say that you should use the "Focus play through the middle" all the time in the first tactic (only as an option sometimes=.

The first tweak I would consider (in both tactics) is shorter passing. Play and report back what happens.

As for other possible tweaks, it's really impossible to say anything specific without deeper analysis of the team/players.

[Tcufrog]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Okay, but I said that you'll need to make some tweaks probably. And did not say that you should use the "Focus play through the middle" all the time in the first tactic (only as an option sometimes=.

The first tweak I would consider (in both tactics) is shorter passing. Play and report back what happens.

As for other possible tweaks, it's really impossible to say anything specific without deeper analysis of the team/players.

Thanks for the input. I only use play through the middle against formations/teams that show a weakness there. 
 

I’ll try the shorter passing instructions and try to send some updated screenshots of my starting lineup so the board can offer feedback.

[Tcufrog]