[FM20] Help with building a 4-2-3-1

[Zeonflux]

Hey all,

As the title suggests I’m wanting help in building a 4-2-3-1 that’s actually going to work how I’d like. I know how I want to play but actually getting that to work is something I’ve never been able to understand when it comes to FM, I can always see in my mind how it should play but getting that to take effect on the pitch never seems to work so I thought I’d ask for help from the tactical brains that the rest of you possess that I certainly lack.

Something I must point out before I start is that I’m unable to get to my laptop at the moment to add screenshot buts I’ll type up the formation on here and the players playing in the positions with their roles and hopefully we can go from there.

Im playing as Manchester United so everyone knows where we’re starting.

GK - De Gea (GKd)

RB - Wan Bissaka (FBs)

CB - Lindelof (CBd)

CB - Maguire (BPDd)

LB - Shaw (WBa)

CMR - McTominay (BWMd)

CML - Pogba (DLPs)

AMR - Sancho (Wa)

AMC - Maddison (AMa)

AML - Rashford (IWs)

ST - Haaland (AFa)

That’s the formation and roles and I’ve been using Overlap on the left, higher Tempo and playing on Positive.

Ive asked the team to Counter when they win the ball and I’m playing a slightly higher LoD and slightly higher LoE.

The style I want is for the team to have the lines of attack to come from the winger on the right running past his man and delivering crosses into the box, the IW being able to dribble the ball inside from the wing and then having options in the form of the ST and AM as well as the overlapping WB with the DLP and BWM being available to recycle the ball when needed.

The above is how I want to play but what tends to happen is that the winger gets the ball and has no options in the box except the ST. The IW dribbles to nowhere in particular and when he gets there he doesn’t seem to pass to anyone and when the ST gets the ball or a ball is played to him he always seems isolated with the W, IW and AM nowhere near him

[rockpie]

To stop the ST from being isolated, I would drop him back to ideally a DLF (s) role, or PF (s) as a secondary option if you don't think DLF suits him.

That should get him more involved in build up play and he should serve as a better outlet in the transition from defense to attack.

As an AF he purely looking to stretch the opposition defense and get in behind, break the offside trap, etc.

 

I would also recommend moving your BWM (d) to the left side, so that he's lined up to more effectively cover the side of the pitch where you have your WB (a) overlapping.

Add player instructions for your main attackers to all Roam From Position and Move Into Channels, if they're not automatically set to do so. This applies to AMR, AMC, AML and ST.

This should create a lot more movement between them in the attacking third, opening up more options and creating different types of chances.

Give that a go for a few games and see what the effects are. I'd also recommend taking a look at a thread I posted recently about Making Good Decisions During Matches, as you might have to make adjustments to counter how specific opposition are set up against you to get the best out of your team.

Hope that helps. 

[Johnny Ace]

One thing too look at here is Pogba's PPM's, I had a look at Utd with a 4-2-3-1 in mind, took one look at Pogba's PPMs & though "Nah" I can't remember them but they're not suitable for a holding CM, basically, you need those 2 to be as solid as a rock  

[Zeonflux]

4 minutes ago, rockpie said:

To stop the ST from being isolated, I would drop him back to ideally a DLF (s) role, or PF (s) as a secondary option if you don't think DLF suits him.

That should get him more involved in build up play and he should serve as a better outlet in the transition from defense to attack.

As an AF he purely looking to stretch the opposition defense and get in behind, break the offside trap, etc.

 

I would also recommend moving your BWM (d) to the left side, so that he's lined up to more effectively cover the side of the pitch where you have your WB (a) overlapping.

Add player instructions for your main attackers to all Roam From Position and Move Into Channels, if they're not automatically set to do so. This applies to AMR, AMC, AML and ST.

This should create a lot more movement between them in the attacking third, opening up more options and creating different types of chances.

Give that a go for a few games and see what the effects are. I'd also recommend taking a look at a thread I posted recently about Making Good Decisions During Matches, as you might have to make adjustments to counter how specific opposition are set up against you to get the best out of your team.

Hope that helps. 

Cheers Rock I shall give those ago. Come to think of it I did have Haaland playing as a DLFa for a awhile and he was better (not overly amazing but sit doing well)

 

3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

One thing too look at here is Pogba's PPM's, I had a look at Utd with a 4-2-3-1 in mind, took one look at Pogba's PPMs & though "Nah" I can't remember them but they're not suitable for a holding CM, basically, you need those 2 to be as solid as a rock  

Yeah I know he has shoots from distance which I don’t particularly like for the role. But overall he has been doing well there so I’m gonna keep him there for now but I will look at his PPMs and see if I can get him to unlearn some 

[Continum]

16 minutes ago, Zeonflux said:

That’s the formation and roles and I’ve been using Overlap on the left, higher Tempo and playing on Positive.

I would consider removing the overlap on the left instruction as this increase the mentality of your wing back, which is already high because of his attack duty. It could leave you very exposed on the left side for counters.
The overlap should happen naturally anyway when having an wing back (A) paired with in inverted winger (S).

Just something to be aware of.

[Zeonflux]

5 minutes ago, Continum said:

I would consider removing the overlap on the left instruction as this increase the mentality of your wing back, which is already high because of his attack duty. It could leave you very exposed on the left side for counters.
The overlap should happen naturally anyway when having an wing back (A) paired with in inverted winger (S).

Just something to be aware of.

I was not aware of that.

i knew what a WBA would get forward but I didn’t realise that he would do it as much as he would with the Overlap TI on 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Zeonflux said:

Yeah I know he has shoots from distance which I don’t particularly like for the role. But overall he has been doing well there so I’m gonna keep him there for now but I will look at his PPMs and see if I can get him to unlearn some 

I'm sure he has "Gets forward whenever possible" or something like that, which is just a nope for me 

Just watch the two Attack duty's up the middle too, with Madison & Haaland, basically having those two on Attack means you'll have another body in the box early & they won't be so bothered in tracking back whilst defending so might leave you light

I do find AM/AP(S) in the No. 10 slot do sit too deep during transitions for my liking at times though    

Like @rockpie said, you need Haaland to be less about pushing the back-line back, as you'll most likely be playing bottom heavy formations, have him be that big pain in the neck up front causing havoc   

[Zeonflux]

Oh I should state the choice to have an IW instead of an IF is down to personal preference.

ive just found that in the last few games the IF, even on support, is more likely to shoot that look for a pass to a player in a better shooting position. So I’m hoping the IW (in the long run) will cut inside with the ball and run toward the goal but make the incisive passes that I’m after but will occasionally shoot if the opportunity is better rather than shooting constantly and passing very very occasionally

[Zeonflux]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm sure he has "Gets forward whenever possible" or something like that, which is just a nope for me 

Just watch the two Attack duty's up the middle too, with Madison & Haaland, basically having those two on Attack means you'll have another body in the box early & they won't be so bothered in tracking back whilst defending so might leave you light

I do find AM/AP(S) in the No. 10 slot do sit too deep during transitions for my liking at times though    

Like @rockpie said, you need Haaland to be less about pushing the back-line back, as you'll most likely be playing bottom heavy formations, have him be that big pain in the neck up front causing havoc   

Ah I believe you are correct sir.....that’s the first one to go.

I did play Haaland as a DLFa in the EL group stages and he got 4 goals against Feyanoord so I’ll try the DLFs and hopefully it’ll get him playing well and maximising Maddison in the AM slot

[jorgvandervloed]

To start off, I would swap the midfield roles. At least, put a defend duty role on the left to cover for the attacking WB. I would also look into changing Pogba to a BBM on the right. The less attacking RB will cover for him.

the most common issue with a 4-5-1 is that it’s a top heavy formation, which means you have a lot of bodies in front of the ball. 

I would change the AM and W to support and keep the AF. This way their starting position is a little deeper, which will help with the movement.

Especially, because you also play on a pretty aggressive mentality. Changing the roles to support help them with covering in defense, but they still make enough runs.
 

my 2 cents

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, Zeonflux said:

GK - De Gea (GKd)

RB - Wan Bissaka (FBs)

CB - Lindelof (CBd)

CB - Maguire (BPDd)

LB - Shaw (WBa)

CMR - McTominay (BWMd)

CML - Pogba (DLPs)

AMR - Sancho (Wa)

AMC - Maddison (AMa)

AML - Rashford (IWs)

ST - Haaland (AFa)

That’s the formation and roles and I’ve been using Overlap on the left, higher Tempo and playing on Positive.

Ive asked the team to Counter when they win the ball and I’m playing a slightly higher LoD and slightly higher LoE

Honestly, I would look to avoid a 4231 with this Man Utd team, especially now that Herrera - as the most complete midfielder Man Utd had last season - has gone. And even if I did play in a 4231 system, I would rather have Pogba in AMC than as a CM, simply because his defensive attributes are not good enough for a holding midfield role. I do use Pogba in a CM position as a mezzala, but in a 442 narrow diamond, where he has Matic as a HB behind him. 

Now, I am not going to say that there is absolutely no way of utilizing Pogba as a CM in a 4231. It might work, but then the fullback on his side needs to be more conservative and actually serve as Pogba's defensive cover, rather than the other way around. Therefore - the left back on attack duty is a no-no if you want Pogba in MCL, whatever his role would be. 

I would also look to avoid a BWM as a holding CM role in a 4231. Because BWM is not really a holding role, even on defend duty. In my 4231, McTominay would be a simple CM on defend.

Another problem is that you seem to have brought new players into an area of the team where you basically don't need them, but failed to strengthen the area that is actually weakest at the moment - i.e. central midfield (recall what I said above about Herrera). 

I'll come back later to tell you how exactly I would set up these 11 players in a 4231 and try to explain you my approach.

[Zeonflux]

Well I’ve taken the advice offered so far and changed a few things.

The left CM is now the BWMd (might look at changing this after advice from Experienced Defender) and the right CM is the DLPs.

ST is now a DLFs

I’m looking forward to seeing how you would set up Experienced Defender as this formation has got me baffled. Sometime it plays well and other I get walked off the park.

Just my luck as I finally got time to make the changes the patch dropped so since making changes with the new patch I’ve lost 2 on the bounce and in the 3rd game I was able to play it was 0-0 at half time (although I had 2 chalked off by VAR) and so I changed to a 4-1-2-3 which is very similar in roles and TIs except I have the BWMd in the DM strata and then a DLPs and a APa in the MC strata, walked away with a 3-0 win so may stick with that one for a while whilst I get the 4-2-3-1 fine tuned.

Oh and in regards to my player recruitment Ex Def, I got Maddison in straight away what with having Gomes and another promising 16 yo AM in the youth team I wanted a tactic to be able to grow them. I did also go for Florentine Luis on deadline day but only had enough to get Haaland and Sancho in (I was of the opinion that they’d be likely to move sooner and would be a bugger to buy later in the game) my next transfer window will be used to improve CM significantly as I want to move Fred and Pereira on.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Zeonflux said:

I’m looking forward to seeing how you would set up Experienced Defender as this formation has got me baffled

Okay mate, here I am 

So, this would be my basic/primary 4231 setup for your preferred starting 11 (taking into account both their attributes and traits and the "specific" features of the 4231 system as such):

PFsu

IFat              XYat              IWsu

YXsu     CMde

IWBde     CDde   BPDde   FBat

GKde

As you can see, I have (for now) left two roles open - the AMC (Maddison) and MCL (Pogba). Because there are basically two possible combinations that should work well IMHO. One is - Pogba as APsu and Maddison as AMat; the other is - Pogba as MEZsu and Maddison as TQ. In both cases, the MCL is on support duty and the AMC on attack. I would experiment with both combinations to see which one works better for this particular team. 

Looking at Rashford's profile, I really don't see him as a good choice for a role such as IW (especially on support duty). In my book, he can be either a striker on attack duty (PF or AF, depending on how the tactic as a whole is set up) or a wide forward that attacks the box from his flank looking to either score himself (more likely) or play a cut-back pass for an onrushing teammate arriving from behind. Simply, he is not a creator type of player. 

Sancho, on the other hand (and flank), is better suited for an IW role IMHO than Rashford. Of course, he can play as a classic winger on the right as well, but in this particular system my idea was for him to play a bit more centrally and thus create the space for Wan Bissaka to make natural overlaps and deliver crosses from the right flank. Plus, playing as an IW on support will not prevent Sancho from crossing the ball when an opportunity presents itself, it will just make him more involved in the creation of your attacks, working in tandem with Maddison and other central players. 

The IWB on defend duty on the left side is there primarily in order to provide defensive cover for Pogba - both because Pogba is not defensively reliable enough and to allow him more freedom of movement in the attacking build-up phase. However, given that Shaw has the trait to "get forward whenever possible", he will not be so much defense-minded as one might assume, despite playing on defend duty. 

As for Haaland, I would otherwise prefer him as a PF on attack duty, but in this particular system he sort of "fell victim" to the need to fit Rashford as the AML into the tactic. 

In terms of instructions, try to keep them as simple as possible (start with only basic ones and then work from there based on what you observe watching a match). 

For example, I would start with the following set of TIs:

Positive mentality (same as yours)

- play out of defence, default tempo, default (or shorter) passing and be more expressive (works well for my Man Utd side)

- counter

- higher DL, standard LOE, offside trap (and a split block/press via player instructions)

That would be it. Of course, feel free to ask whatever questions you might have in relation to my tactical suggestions 

[Zeonflux]

Thanks for the advice Ex Def I shall hopefully be able to give that a go this evening and I’ll let you know how it plays 

[Zeonflux]

Just now, 50-pence said:

Hi there. Is it true that there is no way to organically improve your manager's "working with youngsters" attribute?

 

Everything I've seen suggests it's impossible, and I'd love to get confirmation from a staffer. 

Wrong thread fella 😉

[50-pence]

24 minutes ago, Zeonflux said:

Wrong thread fella 😉

Whoops. Hid it! 

[Zeonflux]

I’ve had a game or 2 with the tactic you suggested Ex Def (been having issues with crash dumps so it’s been quiet difficult.

One quick question I have got is, would the tactic you suggested make the ST the focal point of the target or will the IF be the main goal threat?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Zeonflux said:

One quick question I have got is, would the tactic you suggested make the ST the focal point of the target or will the IF be the main goal threat?

This is an interesting question indeed. Because theoretically - and logically btw - the IF on attack duty (Rashford) is supposed to act as the main goal threat in the tactic I suggested. In practice however, this is not necessarily going to be the case. I'll give you the most recent example from my Newcastle save - our last 5 goals have all been scored by players on support duty (3 of which were strikers) and assisted by ones one attack duty. So it's quite possible that Haaland (or even Sancho, for example) might score more goals than Rashford. But again, there is no fixed rule. In my Man Utd save, my AF (Martial) scored most of my goals from open play (Pogba scored as much, but a few of them were from penalties and free kicks). But my system at Utd is the narrow diamond 442, so I play with 2 strikers (the other one is Lukaku as a PF on support).

A question for you: where are Martial, James and Lingard in your team? And where is Matic?

Edited December 4, 2019 by Experienced Defender

[Zeonflux]

Martial is being used on rotation with Rashford for the left flank (I want Haaland and Greenwood as my ST), James is on the right flank with Sancho. Lingard has just been sold and I sold Matic in the first window, I tent not to keep players in their 30s.

My main transfer aims are Florentino Luis was to be rotating with McTominay and then I want another AP type player to be rotating with Pogba next season. Maddison with have cover with Gomes and I want to try Ching out as cover for James and Sancho

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, Zeonflux said:

Martial is being used on rotation with Rashford for the left flank (I want Haaland and Greenwood as my ST), James is on the right flank with Sancho. Lingard has just been sold and I sold Matic in the first window, I tent not to keep players in their 30s

Okay, thanx for the answer 

[Zeonflux]

No worries if it helps with improving this formation I’ll give you as much information as I can.

i would like to make the ST the focal point of the attack as much as possible, I’m old school in the sense that I want my ST topping as may of the high scorers lists as possible, plus every year I try and get a striker to beat the top goal scorer in the United records

[Tummyowl]

Cannot understand the logic of a two man center midfield with Manchester United, I find a three man works well.

Pogba (Advanced playmaker support), Tolisso (Box to Box support) and Tonali / Garner in the DM position as a deeplying playmaker (defend).

Rashford on the left, Martial (or whomever) up top, and Lingard (or whomever) on the right. Do not struggle for goals.

[Zeonflux]

Once I get a 4-2-3-1 working I’m gonna make a 4-4-2/4-2-4 working as my more attacking secondary formation for when I need to get back into a game or if the opposition are difficult to breakdown with the 4-2-3-1

[Zeonflux]

2 minutes ago, Tummyowl said:

Cannot understand the logic of a two man center midfield with Manchester United, I find a three man works well.

Pogba (Advanced playmaker support), Tolisso (Box to Box support) and Tonali / Garner in the DM position as a deeplying playmaker (defend).

Rashford on the left, Martial (or whomever) up top, and Lingard (or whomever) on the right. Do not struggle for goals.

I have a 4-1-2-3 as my second formation which I’ve been using but I want to be using Maddison and Gomes (in the future) as AM players. I did have a game toward the end of November in the first season where Maddison dominated as an AMa where he got a hat trick and an assist which could have been 2 assists if it wasn’t for VAR and possibly more if Haaland didn’t miss a few 1v1s

[Tummyowl]

My system does not really have a dedicated CAM, I tried it but could not get along with it. I do not rate Maddison as highly either, however, good luck to you. I'd have tried to wedge Maddison in to a central pair with someone behind them.

[Zeonflux]

14 minutes ago, Tummyowl said:

My system does not really have a dedicated CAM, I tried it but could not get along with it. I do not rate Maddison as highly either, however, good luck to you. I'd have tried to wedge Maddison in to a central pair with someone behind them.

I have, in my 4-1-2-3 I have him playing along side Pogba as DLPs and APa and it’s worked well for me

[Zeonflux]

Well I’ve had 3/4 games of the tactic with the suggestions you made @Experienced Defender And one thing I’ve noticed is that I had to basically change to a gegenpress to get the team to look threatening. Had quite a few chances but nothing worth talking about with changing to the gegenpress style setting of maxed LoD and LoE, counter and counter press plus maxed pressing. I hope that isn’t a sign that gegenpress is massively OP’d 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Zeonflux said:

Well I’ve had 3/4 games of the tactic with the suggestions you made @Experienced Defender And one thing I’ve noticed is that I had to basically change to a gegenpress to get the team to look threatening. Had quite a few chances but nothing worth talking about with changing to the gegenpress style setting of maxed LoD and LoE, counter and counter press plus maxed pressing. I hope that isn’t a sign that gegenpress is massively OP’d 

I don't know if it's OP'd because I never play that way, but I know a number of examples of people claiming it is OP'd. But if it works for you,  who cares?  

[Zeonflux]

11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know if it's OP'd because I never play that way, but I know a number of examples of people claiming it is OP'd. But if it works for you,  who cares?  

That is a very good point, once I can get The ST as my main goal threat then I’ll be happy I think, got 2 other tactics for stubborn defences and maintaining a lead so I’m getting to a point where I’m happy.

The tactic (as far as my tactical knowledge in game) is concerned is nearly how I want it, I’m gonna try with a winger on the right again as I like having the 2 flanks doing something different and see how it works out.

[Experienced Defender]

Good luck mate 

[Tiger666]

This is a great thread on the 4-2-3-1