Success with low defensive settings

[ceefax the cat]

Can anyone point me in the direction of an effective defensive tactic, one which limits crossing and shooting opportunities and makes it hard to play in your half, that uses less or much less urgent closing down and / or much lower defensive line / line of engagement? Is there any point those settings existing in the game?

Every time I've ever tried to use these settings what basically happens is that you invite the opposition to cross and shoot at will, whereas surely the point of them existing is supposed to be that you drop off, force the opposition to play in front of 10 of your players and make it hard for them to get into dangerous areas. I feel like, in order to achieve that effect, you end up ratcheting up the closing down and d-line to avoid simply being overrun, and end up with a choice between a) closing down a hell of a lot and b) closing down quite a lot. Dropping off and controlling the opponent using good positioning and tight marking doesn't really seem to be a thing, or at least not as described in the Tactics Creator. I've made loads of decent defensive tactics but they tend to end up having low mentality + high defensive line + quite a bit of closing down

Edited November 21, 2019 by ceefax the cat

[Pedroig]

I'm not sure if they should exist together...  I mean, I guess you can just tell the lads to line 10 across the face of the goal and let the goalie do his thing.  (No closing down, Ultra-low DL, No LOE)

Lower DL, Standard to Low LOE, regular closing down, regular pressing (just put it in the middle regardless of mentality).  Can play wide, normal, or narrow in defense, each has pros and cons.  

Some other things to think about:

Have you tried a BWM DM?  Running a three man DC with pair of Stoppers on the outsides?  Telling your wide defenders to get stuck in individually?  Opp Instruct to show weak foot, close down the wide players?

 

[Rashidi]

Its a question of how you set the LOE and DL together, If the gap between both is too big you will have long shot chances. If the gap is too small you can be hit with OTT balls if you attack and end up camping. So its essentially a tradeoff, which rests with where you want to start your pressing.

If you aim to shut down passing lanes, default pressing is enough, then just look at individual roles to see that they do not cross each others influence and you should be fine. If you aim to shut down crosses a defensive system will need to have at least two players on the flanks to help with preventing 2v1 crossing chances. This precludes all narrow systems. 

Finally how you move the ball out can be affected by the specific roles you choose the duties they are playing on and the team mentality you have chosen. Ultimately a low block which = Much Lower LOE, Much Lower DL, less Closing down and on a lower mentality is just laying back waiting to get raided.

[Snorks]

Rashidi makes an awful lot of sense.

I am experimenting a little (and not doing too badly) with a slightly modified Catenaccio set-up using a 5-3-2 with WBs.

LOE is usually  Standard - maybe one up from there and DL again usually standard or one down.

I am not a real fan of low blocks, but in my save at the moment need a solid defensive set up. Difficult to offer much more advice really without understanding the players you have and roles/duties employed.

[HUNT3R]

50 minutes ago, Snorks said:

I am experimenting a little (and not doing too badly) with a slightly modified Catenaccio set-up using a 5-3-2 with WBs.

LOE is usually  Standard - maybe one up from there and DL again usually standard or one down.

That's what I've done with my 5221 (also with wingbacks, so it's more of a 3-2-2-2-1) setup. Counter/Cautious Mentality, standard LOE, D-line slightly deeper and hard tackling. It's a cautious tactic, but I'm not shutting up shop. I still want to win matches.  

[ceefax the cat]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Its a question of how you set the LOE and DL together, If the gap between both is too big you will have long shot chances. If the gap is too small you can be hit with OTT balls if you attack and end up camping. So its essentially a tradeoff, which rests with where you want to start your pressing.

If you aim to shut down passing lanes, default pressing is enough, then just look at individual roles to see that they do not cross each others influence and you should be fine. If you aim to shut down crosses a defensive system will need to have at least two players on the flanks to help with preventing 2v1 crossing chances. This precludes all narrow systems. 

Finally how you move the ball out can be affected by the specific roles you choose the duties they are playing on and the team mentality you have chosen. Ultimately a low block which = Much Lower LOE, Much Lower DL, less Closing down and on a lower mentality is just laying back waiting to get raided.

Italian football over the years has been full of 4-3-1-2 systems that defend deep and successfully shut down the wings. Guess the ME isn't up to it yet.

I know combining every single low setting is a bad move, but let's try 'less urgent' or 'much less urgent' closing down on its own. Does anyone ever use it? Standard is as low as I've ever gone without pretty much automatically losing. There just doesn't seem to be any situation in which it's advantageous not to use at least standard, ever, no matter where on the pitch you're trying to defend.

Much deeper defensive line is similar. You'd think it would make your defensive line get back on the 18 yard line at the earliest available opportunity and stay there, which sounds like the basis of a great chance at a clean sheet. Strikers closing down on the halfway line, everyone marking tightly behind them, a bit of closing down on the wings etc... Mourinho's first Chelsea side got back on the 18 yard line at the earliest available opportunity and were a nightmare to break down, yet were dominant and scored goals. It was just really hard to build anything in their half because everyone got back. In FM 'much deeper' basically invites your opponents to shoot and cross to their hearts' content while your poor central midfielders run around in circles trying to follow the ball and there is never any reason to go any lower than 'lower' if you want to be competitive.

I've been round the block with those settings so many times and the result is the same, which is that you cave in and acknowledge that to stand a chance of a clean sheet you can't go there.

It'd be refreshing and interesting to see a tactic based around lying in wait and forming an impenetrable wall inside its own half but I don't see any. I watched your low block video Rashidi, but your low block featured really urgent closing down and your team was constantly riding its luck with shots and crosses raining in, so you weren't really stopping anyone getting into dangerous areas so much as accepting loads of low-quality chances.
 

Right, my new mission is to find a tactic that uses less urgent CD, much deeper DL and defends reasonably well. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by ceefax the cat

[Enzo_Francescoli]

Yeah, I think that's the biggest issue with the game right now. You can go and max out your pressing AND use an attacking mentality, and that can work like a charm. Whereas if you go to the other extreme, you fail.

Regardless, I can see the intentions of the game, as in every tactic is a balancing act. That's what we have to find. That infamous Barcelona-Inter game back in the day is an outlier, even Mourinho doesn't play like that every game. 

The thing you mention is a great project of mine too. Based on my experience, I'd only consider less urgent pressing as a TI when on an attacking mentality or higher. If I want fast transitions, I go with at least a positive mentality. Low mentalities are better for possession-oriented tactics, but sitting deep is not one of them. I do think the mentality descriptions are a bit misleading, but the one thing I learned is defensively solid does not equal low mentality.

I have been trying out tactics with Atletico Madrid on FM20, where I install a tactic, then go on holiday for the season, let the assistant handle it, then come back and see how it did. I realize this experiment is inherently flawed because of the lack of adjustments: no one plays the same every game in real life. But it's fine for getting a general feel of tendencies.

I already posted the one tactic that won LaLiga for some other thread. I don't want to do it again, because it's such an abomination. 

Here's one that had me concede more than one goal in only one game out of the 50 or so the team played (Barcelona 1-2, of course). To be fair, I wouldn't yet call it a successful tactic, because we still finished third by quite a large margin, and if I remember correctly, didn't even make it out of the CL group (I'm not sure, I don't save the seasons). I do believe that with constant adjustments and the right players, it can work as intended. Have to find an attacking punch, though. So I intend to develop it further. Less closing down is achieved via PI's, the DLP, the CB's and FB's are instructed to do so.

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Enzo_Francescoli

[rockpie]

I had a tactic that I used as part of a Cardiff save in FM19 that was a 4-1-4-1 low block of sorts.

Lower DL and LOE, standard pressing but with PIs set to have higher pressing from certain players in the system.

It was all about getting certain players to press in certain areas, while the rest of the team stayed in a solid shape. But it required a lot of tinkering, basically for every match because the opposition formation and style of play would mean I had to have different players pressing to counter their shape & style.

Ultimately was a success though, despite the hard work it needs, I qualified for Europa League with Cardiff in season 1 and kept a good number of clean sheets (15 or 16 I think it was).

Maybe over the weekend I'll see if it can be recreated to work in FM20 too, if so I'll come back and let you know.'

[ceefax the cat]

Well this is a bit embarrassing. This dour Italian 4132 has produced the best football I've seen on FM for absolutely ages over 4 games (infuriating lack of through balls aside), culminating in a 4-0 away win.

Opposition instructions are pretty important because if you don't close down the wings you get bombarded, and if you don't mark up in the middle you get cut apart. 

It's actually doing a very good job of winning the ball high up the pitch, because the tight marking + high LoE seems to deny the opposition the ability to play out easily, but the low CD stops your midfield from chasing the ball too much so they don't get tired.

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by ceefax the cat

[Pedroig]

5 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

... so much as accepting loads of low-quality chances.
 

Right, my new mission is to find a tactic that uses less urgent CD, much deeper DL and defends reasonably well. 

One may argue that not allowing high-quality chances is the epitome of a great defensive team.

Good to see something that "works".  It probably needs just a lil tweaking to get it how you want it to be.

Just remember, when trying to keep clean sheets, the other team only has to get lucky once, your team has to play "perfect" every play.

[ceefax the cat]

The same arguably applies every time I smash it back over their heads. In the Welsh Premier anyway

[FMunderachiever]

As long as you have players up front with pace, ive had great success by:

Playing a 4-1-4-1 formation, attacking mentality

Setting a Standard, or in some circumstances one notch lower defensive line

Setting a Much lower line of engagement

Having the "spine" of the team, 2 CBs, the DM, and the 2 CMs to mark tighter (seems to really cut down the opposition long shot success)

Leaving the pressing on standard, or in some circumstances just one notch higher in urgency

Using "pass into space" as a team instruction, keep the width standard, and no need to use any transitional instructions.

 

Ive found for tough away games with Man Utd, this can really see us create lots of chances whilst looking solid at the back. I think making the vertical compactness so extreme really aids the ability of the players to get tight, and stop the long shots.

What I also find is that it leaves the opposition enough room to ATTEMPT a through ball, but I don't mind this as much considering

1) they seem a less effective way to score (shouldn't be the case, I wouldn't do that if it was real life)

2) Quite often, we will still catch the opponent striker offside, even if not setting out a tactical plan to do so