Advice on my 3-5-2

[PigeonStrangler]

Hi all,

I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to football manager.  I'm currently playing a save in Scotland with Rangers and I'm trying to develop a counter attacking 3-5-2.  I'm a big fan of counter attacking football and think it's the best way to go if I want to get results against Celtic and in Europe.  Here's pics of the tactic as it currently stands:

I want to build a team that doesn't concede a lot of goals.  Three rigid CBs who are big and dominant in the air.  Two guys in front of the CBs who will protect the defense and win the ball back.  This should limit the amount of chances opposition teams can create through the centre.  My wing-backs are my only width and since they'll be doing a lot of attacking I expect crosses to come in to my box but as long as I recruit the right CBs heading the ball clear shouldn't be an issue.

In terms of the attack, I've put an attacking playmaker in front of my CDMs to bring the ball out as prior to this I had a Enganche just behind the strikers and almost none of my attacks came down the middle.  HE seems to be functioning quite well as my main creative player.  He gathers the ball and most of the time sprays it out to a wing-back who will then put in a cross.

I'm not sure what combination of strikers I should have.  Right now I have a supporting target man and an attacking CF.  With the amount of crosses coming in the target man is getting most of the goals but I don't see him pressing the opposition back line much even though I've instructed him to press more.  Should I replace the Target man with a defensive forward?  The CF seems to drop in to channels rather than being my main scorer which is frustrating as Rangers have a very good CF in Morelos who could really lead the line well.

Does anyone see obvious weakness in my setup?  Any tips on how I can improve it?  Is a BWM and an Anchor Man a good combo in front of the back three?  Am I getting the most out of my two strikers?

I'm going to try and develop my set-pieces so all three of my CBs are in the opposition box for corners.  This, along with my target man, should prove quite useful and get me a few goals.

 

 

[FlairRA]

I'm trying to create an amazing defensive system based on Mourinho's Chelsea 2004-6, so we're on the same boat here!

I like your thinking, however I believe 2 holders in front of the CBs is one player too much, you basically have 5 defend duties in the centre, you absolutely need to defend the central areas but this looks like overkill in my opinion. Also playing a DM drops your defensive line naturally, and you're already sitting very deep so it will likely be too much, again. 

The main defensive weakness for a 3-5-2 for me are crosses to the back post, where you would expect a FB to be but is just out of reach for your outer CB. Like any good defensive team you want to encourage teams to use the wide areas where they are forced to cross for a dead-end or loose the ball. Your best bet is to move the WBs down to make them FBs into a 5-3-2, you'll cover the far post threat better, be stronger defensively and won't loose much in attack as your FBs will still look to get forward. 

To stop your team sitting too deep you can move your DMs into midfield or increase your defensive line slightly. You should still use a holder but you can definitely make a room for a (S) duty that will help you retain the ball and support the AP. 

It's natural for your CF to drop in the channels, because a CF with an (A) duty has the instruction to move into channels. You can't go wrong with a simple DLF (S) + AF (A) / Poacher (A) combo!

You've lessened creative freedom for the entire team and let the roles that are given creative freedom to create which is fine however only two roles have been given that. One is your CF (A) who is more focused on getting the end of crosses and doesn't really have anyone to provide throughballs to, and the second is your AP (A). I'd utilize a DLF (S) who will provide the simplest of through balls to your AF/CF, while also using a CM(S) or another role and giving them some freedom, they can afford it. I'd also look to give two or three players the 'Roaming' instruction, to make your team more unpredictable in attack.

I think you should look at 'Hit Early Crosses' and 'Play out of Defense', one seems to make your team one-dimensional and the other doesn't seem to fit in with how you want to play. 'More Direct Passing' is very useful should you look for your two strikers, and 'Whipped Crosses' are the most consistent for me.

Good luck, I hope you can get that beautiful Played 10 Conceded 0 stat!

[Marsupian]

With a deep defensive line and shying away from getting stuck into challenges you are probably giving opponents a bit too much room to play their game in your final third. Staying on foot also doesn't make a lot of sense if you want to play counter attacking football as winning the ball is the way you want to attack. I'd personally remove the stay on feet shout and consider going with a slightly higher defensive line especially against weak/slow opposition. 

With a back three I think an anchor man isn't a great option for a DM. An anchor man tends to sit very close to the defensive line where you already have three defenders. Providing some pressure in front of the defensive line to limit time on the ball in dangerous areas seems more useful to me so I'd play a regular DM or even  a second BWM.

I don't get the stick to position shout. I don't think it will make your defense any more solid and it will make your attack more one dimensional. The same goes for the "be more disciplined" shout. You are already playing with a structured shape which limits creative freedom and by adding that shout you are only further preventing attacking players like the wingbacks and the targetman from thinking for themselves. If your attacking routes are working (likely crosses and long balls to the TM who shoots or plays it to the CF with occasionally the AP making dribbles/shots/through balls) than you can stay more disciplined but I'm guessing a bit more creative freedom won't hurt your attacking play.

I like the shoot on sight shout, it really makes a statement to how you want to play. That said it might not be the most effective especially if you are going up against a good GK.

Play out of defense doesn't make a lot of sense to me as it kind of defeats the purpose of playing a TM and trying to play direct, long ball, counter attacking football.

If you want to make the CF(a) more of a goalscorer I'd play him as a poacher with a DLF or similar role next to him. At the moment your wide play is likely hitting early crosses from deep at your TM, removing the early crosses and TM role will get them to the byline more and get more balls towards the other forward.

Basically I would remove "stay on feet" "be more disciplined" "play out of defense" and "stick to positions", move the defensive line one higher and change the anchor man and forward roles.

[summatsupeer]

9 hours ago, PigeonStrangler said:

I'm a big fan of counter attacking football

You haven't just setup to counter attack, your setup to play quite direct all the time.  The TM will attract long balls plus 3 DCB are told to play direct passes which makes me wonder how often the AP gets missed out.  5 Defend duties, 4 attack duties and a support is a bit un-balanced, if there's a counter attack on then players will ignore the roles+duties given and go all out attack anyway as explain in cleons guide:  https://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking

9 hours ago, PigeonStrangler said:

I'm not sure what combination of strikers I should have.  Right now I have a supporting target man and an attacking CF.  With the amount of crosses coming in the target man is getting most of the goals but I don't see him pressing the opposition back line much even though I've instructed him to press more.  Should I replace the Target man with a defensive forward? 

Well there's no one really near the front 2, bit of a impossible task for them to press high on there own.  If you've told him to press more and he's not doing a good job its more likely the players attributes, changing to another role won't really help that.

9 hours ago, PigeonStrangler said:

The CF seems to drop in to channels rather than being my main scorer which is frustrating as Rangers have a very good CF in Morelos who could really lead the line well.

Well you've not setup for him to really be the main scorer, your either swinging crosses in or taking a shot when available.  The only chances he's likely to get is if the TM knocks on a long ball against teams who push up. A CF role probably isn't best if you want him to be the main scorer, i'd maybe just go for a Poacher or AF so he doesn't roam and stays closer to the goal.  The Play Out Of Defence TI just doesn't make sense when you have 3x DCB and a TM, do you want them to play direct or feed the AP?  Seems like you can't decide.  Maybe you want them to feed the AP when there isn't a counter attack available?  In that case refer to cleons guide about not having to setup your tactic to be direct and which players to be involved in them.

9 hours ago, PigeonStrangler said:

Does anyone see obvious weakness in my setup?  Any tips on how I can improve it?  Is a BWM and an Anchor Man a good combo in front of the back three?  Am I getting the most out of my two strikers?

I'd go less focused on pumping balls forward and free up that midfield to support attacks.  Your already using Structured team shape so defenders + attackers are more focused on there end of the field so to have 5 defend duties is very negative.  I'd feel sorry for the playmaker in that team, when they aren't missing him out with direct passes his targets aren't great and has no support in midfield unless he passes backwards.

[nick1408]

I actually think you are too defence orientated.  I operated with the below to win Serie A with AC Milan with 24 goals conceded:

 

 

I wanted to play a 3-5-2 and thought Milan was the best option.  I read that a lot of contemporary 3-5-2's are using one really offensive player (Juan Cuadrado, Victor Moses) and one really defensive player to balance it (Alonso and to a lesser extent at Juventus, Sandro).  From here, I chose Giacomo Bonaventura as my right back as he was defensive enough to do what I needed but talented enough to operate as a pseudo playmaker.  The IWB will not cut inside as there is no player ahead of him but has the applicable PI's I want (roaming, riskier passes etc.).  The DLPd will cover him if he gets caught too far forward and a CB will do the same from behind.  On the right I have Rodriguez as a defensive WB.  He isn't quick enough to track back after attacking and will help give 5 players at the back with the DLPd.  Two BPD's will allow two competent players to potentially find the strikers or AM with long passes but both should never be isolated that this is the only option.

 

Player skills have a lot to do with this.  If one of my BPD's was unavailable I players with two CB's and only the central BPD.  I also think I could get more from the AM but I'm not sure how.  Overall, it was defensively solid and provided 64 goals going forward.

[pheelf]

You're the second person I've encountered on these forums that want to play defensively with Rangers and I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. That tactic seeks to park the bus which in reality isn't all that strong a play defensively in that it just invites the opposition to attack you time after time with you just hoping that you can withstand them for 90 minutes. Rangers may have fallen from grace in recent times but they aren't that bad a team in that they would need to setup so negatively against the likes of Celtic or any team in the Europa League.

There are a number of questions I'd ask myself when looking at the system you posted.

1) How does having two ball magnets work with the defensive central defenders who just want to kick the ball away at the first opportunity?

2) Who in the system can provide early crosses into the box?

3) Who is the target for those crosses, who is in the box early to receive those crosses?

4) What happens when you lose the ball with your wingbacks high up the pitch, who covers and how?

5) Why structured which encourages further separation between players?

I have further questions but I don't want to overload you with them. I think you might be thinking that selecting a certain TI will definitely bring about that behaviour in the match engine but you need to consider that if you haven't set up your system in accordance with a TI it won't work (at least not consistently).

For e.g. You have selected Play Out of Defence but how is that supposed to work when all of your defenders want to just kick the ball upfield?

You've opted for Shoot on Sight but how well are your two strikers going to perform that? In my opinion, the Target Man is going to be shooting from distance all the time and the Complete Forward is going to be roaming around so much that he will often find himself shooting from wide angles and distance also.

As you have stated that you are a novice (not that I'm an expert) I'd suggest you go back to basics.

Standard, Flexible, no TIs and generic roles so that you can solely focus on each phase of play. I think that reading will be helpful as others have suggested but your own observations will be much more potent in giving you an understanding of how the tactics you create are translated into the match engine. 

Once you have done that focus on using duties to define who should be involved in each phase of play and use the roles to define how.

Incidentally, if you wish to pursue a counter-attacking style of play there are a couple of things which are worth bearing in mind.

1) Counter attacks are a function of how the opposing team sets up. If they play defensively you won't get many opportunities to counter-attack.

2) You increase your chances of a successful counterattack the better the numerical advantage you have. It is also important that the players involved in the counter-attack are able to link up quickly and easily otherwise the momentum of the counter can be lost as it gives time for the opposition to recover defensively.

All of which means that the system you posted is not suited to playing counter-attacking football. You only have 1 support duty in your entire team who incidentally is a striker so who exactly is supposed to bridge the gap between your defend duty players of which you have 5 and your 4 attack duty players. Counter attacks rely on making quick transitions between defence and attack but you have no players tasked with being in the transition phase. During counterattacks, your attack duty players are going to be bombing forward in anticipation of somebody picking them out and your defend duty players are just going to stay in position which is problematic as none of your defend duty players are particularly good at long range passes which would be needed in order to progress the counter-attack further.

Good luck.

[Experienced Defender]

I'm also a fan of counter-attacking football, so this is how I would set up your 3-5-2 (5-3-2) system with that purpose:

TMa     DLFs

 

CMa

   WBs    VOLs    DLPs      WBa

CDc   CDst   DCBc

GKd/SWKs

Counter / Structured

TIs - pass into space, play wider, float crosses, exploit the middle

LWB (WBs) - cross from deep, run wide with the ball

DML (VOLs) - get further forward, tackle harder

DMR (DLPs) - mark tighter, more direct passing

CMa - move into channels

DLFs - roam from position

TMa - move into channels

A few extra TIs and/or PIs could be used depending on how things on the pitch are going. And that's it