Pendeleffekt - understanding pressing PI

[westy8chimp]

barring the short answer... 'suck it and see'

What really happens in the match engine if I select both fullbacks (and other positions) to have PI to press 'much more'?

Let's say I'm playing a 532 formation. If the AI have the ball on the left ... I want my RB, RCM, RCF to go and press. If they have the ball on the right I want my LB, LCM, LCF to go and press. This is the pendulum effect or "pendeleffekt"

If I set my strikers, outer CMs, and full backs to pressing much more... is the ME clever enough to recognise this zonally ... or do they all just push up ball chasing?  

What are the triggers for **a high press  'much more press' to begin ... if my RB has 'press much more' will he start when the AI LB has the ball?... or only when they get the ball within a certain area of the pitch? Or only when they have the ball within a certain radius of that player?

 

 

**poorly phrased... I don't mean high press in terms of where on the pitch ... I simply mean at what point a player specified to press much more will be triggered to begin pressing 

[ajsr1982]

Based only on my observations, it's the latter - when they have the ball within a certain radius of that player. You can control this to some extent by using tighter/man marking, and opposition instructions to push players into more congested areas of the pitch.

Where I have a question mark is whether that radius is created equal for all players. In my experience, a DF and a BWM seem to charge towards opposition players from a greater distance.

As a small aside, one of my real bugbears on this version of FM is FBs (and WBs) chasing the ball infield, thus completely abandoning their post. 

[felley]

I assume you're referrring to the 'touchline press' used by managers such as Lucien Favre?

I'd imagine it's maybe a bit too sophisticated to implement within FM...

If I was to give it a go, I'd go for a structured/highly structured team shape and probably a standard or counter mentality to ensure my players are relatively disciplined in their positioning to make it work. Apart from that I think you had it spot on when you mentioned about putting the right players on 'close down much more' - maybe try and ensure you use a formation that has natural central players you can ignore the closing down for (or even select 'close down less' for)... I'm thinking possibly a 3-5-2?

[westy8chimp]

Thanks @ajsr1982 these were my previous interpretation/assumption/bugbear and I've advocated a change to 'pressing zones' for a long time now. I understand the limitation in giving the player too many choices that will be hard for AI to replicate... but on the other hand it's so restrictive tactically to not be able to follow basic pressing principles.

I didn't want to continue my rants each year if actually I could achieve certain pressing principles without knowing it.  

35 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

If the AI have the ball on the left ... I want my RB, RCM, RCF to go and press. If they have the ball on the right I want my LB, LCM, LCF to go and press. This is the pendulum effect or "pendeleffekt"

It really shouldn't be so hard or complicated to achieve this very basic setup. But I just cant think how... as you say, if I put my RB on much more pressing ... it doesn't mean he will go after their left back... it means he will chase any bugger that comes within 'his radius' ... be that a central player etc.

[ajsr1982]

Exactly. I think your best bet as the game currently stands is OIs.

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, felley said:

I assume you're referrring to the 'touchline press' used by managers such as Lucien Favre?

I'd imagine it's maybe a bit too sophisticated to implement within FM...

If I was to give it a go, I'd go for a structured/highly structured team shape and probably a standard or counter mentality to ensure my players are relatively disciplined in their positioning to make it work. Apart from that I think you had it spot on when you mentioned about putting the right players on 'close down much more' - maybe try and ensure you use a formation that has natural central players you can ignore the closing down for (or even select 'close down less' for)... I'm thinking possibly a 3-5-2?

I was going to create my first tactical post so didn't want to give away the full picture... but I suppose it would help if I provided the wider plan for my team  

Respectively - standard setup...hypothetical press if AI has ball with their RB... general attack shape

Defensively press the ball high with strikers, CMs and full back all set to high press (but in the hope, and probably not achievable, that they understand touchline pressing). rest of team maintains stable shape

Attack... wbs on attack providing width, Mezzalas on attack exploiting halfspace... and two strikers (haven't decided roles, they need to be creative and also move to channels so probably something simple like DLF/AF partnership).

[westy8chimp]

attack wise I would be using player duty wisely.

maintaining a 532shape if I'm the underdog (wbs and mez on support)

creating more of a 334 (either WBs or Mez on attack depending where the space is)  if it's balanced or I'm slight favourite

going 316 if I'm against a parked bus (Wbs and Mez all on attack)

[ericstpeter]

I'll be interested to see the post @westy8chimp . Looks interesting.

[ajsr1982]

I have a better idea of what you're attempting now.

Your D-Line and your team mentality plays a big part here. I'd urge you to play around with combinations of these and watch what your players do when you lose the ball - do they drop back straight away, where do they engage the opposition, how quickly do they get back once the play has passed them? I'm getting to the edge of my knowledge here, but I believe you give yourself the best chance of achieving pressing at the start of the defensive transition with players who have more attacking mentalities (a combination of player duty and team mentality). The D-Line acts in opposition to this, effectively acting as a magnet pulling your team towards its own goal. The lower the D-Line, the stronger this effect.

Getting the balance right between these is key - you run the risk of leaving some players in no man's land. The other risk you have is that if the play bypasses the players with attacking mentalities, they are slower to get back into their defensive positions.

In summary - pressing is hard in FM, it would be nice if they made it easier!

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, ajsr1982 said:

I have a better idea of what you're attempting now.

Your D-Line and your team mentality plays a big part here. I'd urge you to play around with combinations of these and watch what your players do when you lose the ball - do they drop back straight away, where do they engage the opposition, how quickly do they get back once the play has passed them? I'm getting to the edge of my knowledge here, but I believe you give yourself the best chance of achieving pressing at the start of the defensive transition with players who have more attacking mentalities (a combination of player duty and team mentality). The D-Line acts in opposition to this, effectively acting as a magnet pulling your team towards its own goal. The lower the D-Line, the stronger this effect.

Getting the balance right between these is key - you run the risk of leaving some players in no man's land. The other risk you have is that if the play bypasses the players with attacking mentalities, they are slower to get back into their defensive positions.

In summary - pressing is hard in FM, it would be nice if they made it easier!

yes it may not be a problem in real terms when I start using this tactic... as my wbs should be high up the pitch when I attack... so when I lose the ball and the opponent has it at the back... my wb should be high up so the player may fall within 'the magical radius' . It's never going to be exactly what I want but should be close enough.

You'll see my other thread I raised soon after this... the system I want is very specific. I want detailed pressing. I want specific timing of movement from my wbs and mez's so I'm really interested in the high detail working of exactly when an attack duty defender or midfielder decides to make a forward run etc.

I want my cbs and dlp to play out - rather than counter attack... this is because I want to give time for the wbs and mez to get into advanced positions before the defenders play the ball forward. Then I want the ball to be direct to central areas for strikers ... who then bring in the Mez. If centre is congested the DLP should look to stretch play with the WBs (hence why if I come against park the bus I would have them on attack duty and other instructions to encourage wide play).

I don't really know if any of this is possible within the tactical limitations... will my Wbs make advanced runs off the ball while my CBS and DLP knock it about?

It's incredibly difficult to achieve these formulated plans.. how can I instruct my DLP to be both patient and knock it about with my CBS and then, once my attack is formed, hit the rangey balls forward  going to take a lot of tinkering

[Jean0987654321]

Only way is OIs. Either that or set up two tactics and switch game to game. The latter is not ideal so OIs is probably the best bet for now

[yonko]

In terms of pressing, leave the closing down in Team Instructions as default (i.e. sometimes) and just raise your D-Line a little. Then set PIs for the WBs, MEZs and STs to close down more, mark tighter and tackle harder. You can also add OI's to oppositions' defenders - close down always and tackle harder.

In terms of attacking play, use Play Out Of Defense instruction. DLP can have More Risky Passes. How the defense and DLP execute will depend on their attributes - passing, decisions, vision. You might want to use a BPD for DCL and DCR too. The WBs and MEZs will need to be players with high workrate, acceleration and stamina attributes.

My advice is stagger your set up a little bit and do not make it symmetrical.

WB-S, MEZ-A and AF-A on one side, while the other side can be WB-A, MEZ-S, DLF-S

[westy8chimp]

@Cleon RE response in other thread... hopefully you can see a bit more in here how it ties in with how i want to win the ball... what structure i want my team to move to... what the passing channel should be etc.

I may recreate the thread though and try to be more succinct  

[Cleon]

25 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

@Cleon RE response in other thread... hopefully you can see a bit more in here how it ties in with how i want to win the ball... what structure i want my team to move to... what the passing channel should be etc.

I may recreate the thread though and try to be more succinct  

I see what you are doing now and it makes sense. When thinking about pressing there's a much easier way to see how a player will be triggered to press and so on. 

If we take this image for example and look at the yellow square for my wingback. This is a players natural zone so when he's in his natural starting position like he is in the image then he will look after this zone. But if you was to then add press more, he'd start pressing more early. So as soon as a player got in the red box, he would then attempt to engage him. Where as without press more added he'd only engage when he got near the yellow box. What zone an opposing player enters is the actual trigger for when someone closes down or not based on how passing or aggressive he is being.

Does that make sense?

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

Does that make sense?

Absolutely...thanks.

Thats the pressing trigger understood... Now just for the precise timing when a mezzalas attack duty kicks in and for him to make his advanced run to exploit the half space in the final third 

[Cleon]

16 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Absolutely...thanks.

Thats the pressing trigger understood... Now just for the precise timing when a mezzalas attack duty kicks in and for him to make his advanced run to exploit the half space in the final third 

I think I can answer this as I believe you are thinking about it from the wrong angle. Don't think of an attack duty kicking in, rather think of attacking duty as the players starting position being more advanced than he is on a support one. So there isn't anything to really kick in or a trigger, it's more about the starting position due to mentality being higher. That's basically the major difference between attack and support, the mentality. This will also be modified slightly by what the team mentality is, so you can push him slightly further forward or back depending if you go attacking or more counter attacking.

So for him to make forward runs, if he is higher up the pitch he could make them later than a support one because he already is advanced positionally. Where as a support one might make the run a lot earlier because he's closer to the action initially and has more space to cover.

So what we could see is;

• Support duty Mez will run when the ball is still deep in his half.
• Attack duty Mez will run once the ball is actually in the oppositions half. So anywhere after the halfway line.

You might see variations outside of this depending on the scenarios we discussed in the other thread. So they both could do the opposite to the above too. But for a general idea which is what you're after, I'd go with the above.

[westy8chimp]

Update:

Essentially the tactic I'm going for is too specific and has behaviours that FM can't mimic (even if I could cherry pick PPMs for every player). In some 'recreation' or specific tactical goals you can omit parts and still have success... alas, this is not one of them, it relies on each piece of the puzzle working as intended.

I aim to get a new laptop for FM19 so will be back in a position to properly screen shot my settings and analysis - if there are some TC changes again i'll have another crack at it  

 

[Gegenklaus]

12 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Update:

Essentially the tactic I'm going for is too specific and has behaviours that FM can't mimic (even if I could cherry pick PPMs for every player). In some 'recreation' or specific tactical goals you can omit parts and still have success... alas, this is not one of them, it relies on each piece of the puzzle working as intended.

I aim to get a new laptop for FM19 so will be back in a position to properly screen shot my settings and analysis - if there are some TC changes again i'll have another crack at it  

 

Yeah, I have learned to just be inspired with certain kind of styles from Real life football. Been trying to replicate the newly appointed PSG manager Thomas Tuchel and his Dortmund side. It just can't be done. Instead I can draw some inspiration formation wise and style: The obvious clever passing game, the proactiveness of it all, his use of players and general movement from the players. 

I took that and made some fairly simple tactics to be used against certain formations - as Tuchel has done throughout his career - that being 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1, 3-4-3 and the interesting 3-1-2-4. 

But it is so hard to let go of something that just isn't possible.