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Mitja

match engine

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this thread is to discuss about match engine (ME). the goal is to put some constructive thoughts about ME, for the game to improve further, critisize what's wrong about it and give fresh ideas. I think ME is/ should be the heart of this game and it's strange that this community hasn't got a fair thread about ME. many ME ideas abd thoughts are in many different threads and I will also try to paste those into this one.


some of the features of match engine are:


- match: resoults, match events of any kind (fouls, cards, goals, off sides, player movement...)

- tactical aspect of ME (how is tactics reflecting in ME)

- interaction part in match engine (media talks, team talks reflecting in ME)

- technical problems in ME



one thing I would like to keep out of this thread is SOT/Goal ratio. even though it's important part of ME. there are millions of threads about that metter.

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this thread is to discuss about match engine (ME). the goal is to put some constructive thoughts about ME, for the game to improve further, critisize what's wrong about it and give fresh ideas. I think ME is/ should be the heart of this game and it's strange that this community hasn't got a fair thread about ME. many ME ideas abd thoughts are in many different threads and I will also try to paste those into this one.


some of the features of match engine are:


- match: resoults, match events of any kind (fouls, cards, goals, off sides, player movement...)

- tactical aspect of ME (how is tactics reflecting in ME)

- interaction part in match engine (media talks, team talks reflecting in ME)

- technical problems in ME



one thing I would like to keep out of this thread is SOT/Goal ratio. even though it's important part of ME. there are millions of threads about that metter.

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[QUOTE]of course they need new features, but why? to attract newers to buy this game. but it's far worse if they loose their long term clients isn't it?[QUOTE]


Originally posted by George Graham:

It is but this series needs an injection of something fresh.

For so long FM has stood head and shoulders above its competitors, not so much in terms of features but because it just did things better and in a more realistic way.

Now looking at what the CM guys are doing I see a lot more effort on their parts to innovate, whereas SI seem to be steeped in the days of CM3 where we would get excited about a little touch here or there, or a new option.

I know we get told that SI have a relatively small team, but I wish that rather than small changes that are spread pretty thin over the whole of FM, that SI would focus on really transforming in a big way one area of the game.

I know that to make an impressive list of new features for the game is important, but really the sum of these new features isnt to the extent that you feel your playing anything other than slightly updated or tweaked version. Theres just nothing that ever takes this game forward in anything other than teeny-tiny steps.

I appreciate that there is plenty going on under the bonnet as such- but with FMs competitors (well CM anyway) gaining ground but adding more exciting and interesting features than SI are coming up with then there will be a risk that people will jump ship.

This player bought CM08 (my first CM since SI left) as something to play before the patch, and I was pleasantly surprised. Its not perfect and just as infuriating as FM at times but nowhere near the trainwreck of CM5.

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also posted by George Graham: (hope he aprooves it)

Its not about making the game easier in terms of the challenge, its about making the tactical side more intuitive and more akin to real life- whereas currently its all about beating FM, not beating real life tactical situations.

FM is currently challenging for all the wrong reasons.

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posted by Arnoldzhu:

I'm not giving up to anything I mean I still think we need more efficient way and interface to setting training or tactics in the game but the game is actually much more complicated then it appears. I love this game and appreciate the efforts SI people made.

As to the match engine we can see it's really improving all through these years. The only factor I can come up with is the players' off-the-ball running. Players should move more frequently especially high working-rate midfield players, they should move up and down and from center to right/left according to where the ball in on the pitch when his teammate is controlling the ball.

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Originally posted by Cleon:

I think people need to take a little step back and make sure they actually understand the basics of the match engine first and foremost before anything else. Keep it all simple and you'll have success, find a system that works for you and what you are comfy with and not try and use what works for someone else.


Vril's response:

What kind of advice is this? It is very easy to say somebody he doesn't understand the game or match engine, when there is not much information about it, and no one can instruct what, when and why. I was trying to keep it simple, as you said, for over 9 season, playing couple of teams, and never found out what was working for me what wasn't. Every post-games conclusions seemed not to work in next few games. In this FM, there isn't any consistency or certainty of match engine principles (?). What was working for let say 3-4 games seemed not to work few next times as I said before. Of course you can't say me to stop playing at all or I am unable to understand the game. You can say 'try to understand game', but this is so general as it is useless and this is not the answer.

I am just trying to understand this game but it seems to be "Mission Impossible'.
Sorry for my bad English.

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Posted by Millie:

I do. A lot. Indeed, as part of another forum, the team working on tactic there have sent dozens of e-mails to SI complaining and offering criticisms as to where the game needs improvement. There are many problems with the game, many problems with the match engine.

My issue comes with the fact that the game isn't as unplayable and broken as everyone suggests. My other problem is that most of the moaners will not listen to another view point because we're "fan boys". An alternative is offered and this is "too complicated", "defending the game for the sake of it" ad nauseam.

This is a good game. It does have many faults though, and only and idiot would think it was flawless. But outside the match engine I think the game is fantastic - and in the match engine there are plenty of things people can do but don't to make the game winable and enjoyable.

I have no problem with people disliking the game. I can both see why they do and have pointed out the problems many times. This doesn't make me a blind sheep.

But then, things have to be black and white, don't they. God forbid that an opinion can be nuanced... Roll Eyes

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Posted by Powermonger:
I agree with the basic sentiment of this post but maybe not in the delivery, though frustration can do that to you. Smile

When I start ordering professional tactical training books off Amazon to try and attempt to understand a PC game, I know there is something wrong.

I hate the way tactics are currently configured in FM, I've disliked them since it was introduced in CM4. There is too much ambiguity in the slider settings and it's very hard to distinguish a link back to the 2D engine, making for a very frustrating experience. We went from a rather simple and understandable Wibble/Wobble tactical interface over to a convoluted system of 21 notched set of sliders that only the very astute can understand.

The problem I see now is that tactics and the match engine are so intertwined that SI have no intention of changing the way tactics are configured. They haven't touched tactics since CM4, 6 versions of no changes at all, only tweaks to the match engine.

If SI have no intention of altering or perfecting tactical settings, then they need to give us better tools and information to analyse them by, because having to rely on watching full matches all the time to try and understand where you are failing is time consuming and not enjoyable.

Again this is another area SI are reluctant to change, only things they've added since the days of CM3 in the way of information is the 2D match engine, it shouldn't stop there though. We need more statistics to help pinpoint problems better with an easier method to link back to our tactics.

ChampMan has introduced ProZone into their series which graphically helps to break down plays and player performance, and used intelligently with the right filtering of information, makes it much easier to pin point issues or areas of good performance.

I know arguments have been made in the past that it adds nothing to the game and is a 'mess' but the information it can supply a gamer is far superior to relying solely on watching 'lady beetles' running around the screen and trying to take everything in at once. I'd rather have the ability to view too much information then not be given enough, like we suffer from now.

As I've stated in previous posts, having access to more information is not about winning all the time, it's about enjoying the game more and developing a better understanding of the game as a whole, instead constantly getting frustrated by a engine and interface that just make the average gamers play time difficult and unrewarding.

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Posted by UEELfan:

Pleasantly pleased of how long discussion has been going over here without degenerating into inane rambling. Big thumbs up to every contributor here.

As for what's right and wrong in the game, I must agree that the main problem right now is that the MCs really don't perform that well defensively in a 442. A 451 improves it a bit, but it creates other issues.

However, the main problem with 08 is not the goal/shot ratio but rather the 'too many chances created'.

Really. It all goes down to the fact that too many chances are created. If those chances were cut before the oposition got into a position to make a shot, the game would improve a lot.

I'm also of those who take what is being shown in 2D with a pinch of salt, because I really do think that the engine sometimes can't represent what is happening behind the scenes (thus the clear cut chances missed, or the defenders making a step forward before starting to trail back after a long ball by the oposition). I'd also like to see the commentary inmatch improved. It's shocking how poor the game reads nowadays if you actually try to only use the commentary.

That being said, the game's got potential. Lots of it. Sort the excessive chances, sort the confidence module, sort the transfer module (the way the Artifitial Inteligence treats negotiation is beyond a joke)and you have a winner.

Heck, I've already put 11 seasons in it with all those niggling issues, imagine what I'll do when it gets sorted.

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posted by Mitja:

major thing that FM failed is that tactics are so much important then player ability.you frequantly get some C-league teams playing like Barca. 50 meter runs, perfect passes, screamers, holding the ball in last minutes...it's all normal no metter who do you play. on the other hand you have a feeling that your players don't have any brain. I know this is a game but c'mon where is some kind of human factor in this game? it's missing. I have a feeling that I'm dealing with machines not players.... run with that, creative freedom that...c'mon is that the way team are managed IRE??! not to mention how many tweaks AI is able to perform. yes real managers have some influence on the game they can change some instructions like screaming too their FB to stay back a little more and stuff. but defenetly human factor is missing.

I just don't have a feeling things are right. I can't compare FM to real life football anymore... too robotic. I mean ME has improved but then you have all this stupid little bugs like your MCs didn't hear of football and 1/1 bug and it all fails apart.

ok we wanted this game to become more like simulation (harder), but what has changed? face gen? tactics, training, interaction? things went so complecated. half of features don't work or only at 50%; preffered moves? you must be joking. movement/postioning? like watching 80 year old grand mothers prepering to die, but no problem for some regen with pace and dribling of 7 to make those 50 meter runs. the game just isn't the same for humans and AI.

what's the most sad thing about it all? it's still the best game of it0s kind on the market Confused

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posted by Mitja:

major thing that FM failed is that tactics are so much important then player ability.you frequantly get some C-league teams playing like Barca. 50 meter runs, perfect passes, screamers, holding the ball in last minutes...it's all normal no metter who do you play. on the other hand you have a feeling that your players don't have any brain. I know this is a game but c'mon where is some kind of human factor in this game? it's missing. I have a feeling that I'm dealing with machines not players.... run with that, creative freedom that...c'mon is that the way team are managed IRE??! not to mention how many tweaks AI is able to perform. yes real managers have some influence on the game they can change some instructions like screaming too their FB to stay back a little more and stuff. but defenetly human factor is missing.

I just don't have a feeling things are right. I can't compare FM to real life football anymore... too robotic. I mean ME has improved but then you have all this stupid little bugs like your MCs didn't hear of football and 1/1 bug and it all fails apart.

ok we wanted this game to become more like simulation (harder), but what has changed? face gen? tactics, training, interaction? things went so complecated. half of features don't work or only at 50%; preffered moves? you must be joking. movement/postioning? like watching 80 year old grand mothers prepering to die, but no problem for some regen with pace and dribling of 7 to make those 50 meter runs. the game just isn't the same for humans and AI.

what's the most sad thing about it all? it's still the best game of it0s kind on the market Confused

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I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender.

I think a lot of the frustration we see regarding the match engine is really more about the tactical interface. Although we've made a lot of progress since the days of "wibble/wobble", there are still limitations.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender.

I think a lot of the frustration we see regarding the match engine is really more about the tactical interface. Although we've made a lot of progress since the days of "wibble/wobble", there are still limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and I think that more tactical instructions there are it's harder for ME (players) to decide, probably. maybe this types of games should make "thinking" that player's should know some things by defoult (how to mark fast striker and how strong and not fast, for example) due to not over-complicate things with too many tactical stuff. I hope this meant smth to you... [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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Personally, i feel that for FM09, they need to scrap whatever controls there are on one-on-one finishing success, and work on making defenders capable of stopping the laughable number of chances created.

Fix this and the number of moans on these boards would be halved.

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what SI could try to fix for 8.0.2 patch; most important:

-SOT/Goal Ratio. I believe (with many people claiming so) it's more got to do with poor defending ability of ME.

-also movement of attacking players isn't good (wingers and striker esp.)

-MC holding on the ball too much. again I believe it's got to do with poor movement of strikers and wingers. also with their poor decisioning.

-number of fouls (again mostly by MC holdin on the ball too long)

-too many off-sides. make player more awere of off-sides (both passing player and receiving player).

if they could fix that ME problems, the game would be very good.

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Mitja, I think the key is to identify tactical decisions the manager would make, as opposed to the tactical decisions a player would make. The manager would typically set the framework, and then the player would make on-field decisions. So, if I tell a center back to tightly mark the opposing striker ballside (to try to deny him the ball), that's a legitimate coaching decision, and it has implications for how the other defenders react. By overplaying the attacker, the center back is going to be out of position to recover if an attacker gets the ball in the space behind him, and so everyone else needs to be ready to react and cover.

Maybe a better approach from that of individual player instruction would be a group-based instruction against an opposing player. So, instead of the simplistic "tightly mark - always", you could choose between "deny ball" and "contain".

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Mitja, good point about players (not just MCs) holding the ball too long. Sometimes, it's worse in FM than it used to be when I was coaching my son's team. [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

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The main problem as i understand it is that we don't have enough options on width per level, tempo per position , front runs , marking etc to master the capabilities of the match engine.
AI capitalizes on all match engine buffs while we can not (well we can but it took me 1 year to perfect a simple formation in fm07 and i don't plan to do it again for fm08 ).
How i can order my winger to enter the box from the side pull GK on the side of the post and then pass to the striker in the penalty area?
More control will be a nice addition i think.

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POSITIONIG/MOVEMENT



positioning and movemnet are maybe the worst things in this ME. also poor defending is reason why so many chances do happen now, in my opinoum. if SI could fix it many problems would disapear.

mostly that stands for midfielders, not helping each other so basicly we have 1-1 marking instead of team, zonal. defending shape is really bad. it's too streched in both sides- width and hight. the gaps between defense-midfield-forwards are enormious. players should stand more close to each other, that's why so many gaps happen. both MCs never hold the line no metter what closing instructions are. opponent MC can out play them with one-twos, or sneak behind whenever they want, leaving poor defenders to be out numbered constatly. how can that happen. maybe that kind of defense is played in conference, but I doubt.

also movement is very bad. the good thing about it is if it was better we wouldn't have 40+ shots per game, we would have 60+. what is it I don't like with movemnet.

- rarely see your striker or winger to come deep for the ball, IRE they most do it on regular basis. (no metter if it's one of the preffered moves or not). maybe this is due to forwards runs set to often (even though I trie it all, wingers are standing on the flanks anyway), but there are no instructions that tells a player to come for the pass. the resoult is your MC holding on the ball, making cyrcles and finaly loosing it.

but I must admit that I like the movement of full backs this year!! could be better...league 2 standard.


- rarely see your winger to cut inside. they just hold to thier wing. not even a conference standard. IRE we can see wingers doing all kind of movements; from cuting inside to going to whole other flank, comming deep, huging the line, going forward, to the box.... if we are lucky we could see our wingers in the box but that happens rarely no metter what instructins are. extremly poor!!


-free role not working on wingers. related to uper paragraph. but it works on strikers!! hmmm...


-MCs rarely come deep for the pass also. standing to close to each other. resoulting in lost posession often.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
The main problem as i understand it is that we don't have enough options on width per level, tempo per position , front runs , marking etc to master the capabilities of the match engine.
AI capitalizes on all match engine buffs while we can not (well we can but it took me 1 year to perfect a simple formation in fm07 and i don't plan to do it again for fm08 ).
How i can order my winger to enter the box from the side pull GK on the side of the post and then pass to the striker in the penalty area?
More control will be a nice addition i think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. but I don't think more control-more tactical complexity would work well. as it obviously doesn't work with this amount of parameters, one over rides another and so on....

better solution would be to re write tactics and simplify them.

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[url="http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273"]This thread[/url] contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely spot on - defenders are just so mind-numbingly stupid.

- Why is it such a challenge for your defenders to clear their lines? They just seem to clear it short distances to the AI time and again, which invites more pressure. It seems impossible to clear it up the pitch consistently.

- Why can't I tell me defender whether I want him ballside or goalside? They seem to get caught in a place between the two, particularly full-backs.

- Why is marking such a challenge? They seem to mark a specific spot, not a player, and they don't use any common sense. IRL if a striker beats a central defender, his partner will come across as a help defender. This doesn't happen in FM, and often the other centre-half stands and watches a striker go in on goal. This is especially apparent when playing against a lone striker, who runs down the middle.

- Why do full-acks always either close an opposition full-back down or go in board, but never actually defend the spot they are supposed to? I've lost count of how many times my full-back goes to close down someone he's not meant to, leaving the AI winger with time and space to cross.

In general, the first step for me is to overhaul the defensive side of the game, as right now defenders still don't have the bread and butter down pat, and still consistently make basic errors that would be out of place in an under 10s game.

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exellant post by hawshiels:

I think you have to draw distinctions between two things here:

1 - There are some of the sliders that are intended to cause effects in the match engine, but have strange results. Some of these are not working quite correctly, but I expect that SI will further tweak the engine to get this right over time. Some are frustrating, sure, but at least you can see that they try to do what they say on the tin.

2 - There are some of the sliders that probably do exactly what SI wanted them to do, but are not described very well in the manual. Don't get me wrong, the manual explains very well what each of these sliders does and if you were trying to write a football dictionary, it works very well. What it doesn't do however is to explain in any detail. I'll give you an example. Check out the descriptions of "Playmaker". It's absolutely correct of course, but what does it mean? Another example is "Creative Freedom". What the manual gives is an excellent description of what this means but it doesn't really tell us what it does. You see the problem is that we ned to be able to understand under what circumstances "players occassionally ignore your tactical instructions" and how to determine what are the key areas of "technical prowess" of the players.

What the manual/engine/tactics is lacking is an effective way to communicate clearly what you want the players to do under certain circumstances. I know we've argued the whole "with ball" and "without ball" thing to death (and I don't expect or really want this back), but I think the reason people liked it was because it was clear.

I actually prefer the direction of the tactics better now but would like it to be simplified. But as I've already said (maybe even on this thread), this does not mean reducing the number of tactical options. It just means that I'd like a clear means of translating what I want to do onto the pitch.

I feel at the moment that I can get individual sliders to do roughly what I want, but I have to make compromises all over because of the effect that one slider has on another (e.g. Mentality, Creative Freedom, Closing down). And then of course I have to try to work out what attributes are key in each match engine decision. Again I know what attributes should be taken into account, but I don't know what opinions SI had when implementing these so I don't know the strength of each one. It's a bit like trying to use Spanish to explain to my team (who all speak French) what I want them to do. I know exactly what I want to say, but I don't have the necessary vocabulary to achieve it.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
[url="http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273"]This thread[/url] contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
[url="http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273"]This thread[/url] contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

even though your thread is more like wishlist thread not discussion. I changed my mind [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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some hypothetical thoughts about mentality.



-WHAT IS MENTALITY?

it's team's style of play -> attacking and defending. so more attacking this style is more players will perticipate (have attacking duties) when the team is in ball possesion. via versa more defensive mentality is more players will defend (have defensive duties) while possesion is lost.

mentality is also [I]balance between defending and attacking[/I] . with how many players a team attacks/defends.

all that (mentality) should be understanded as a [I]tendency[/I] . players try to perform their duties. it's not allways possibile as human factor is present. that's why there are players better in defending and those who prefer attacking duties.



-what it does?

most obvious segment of mentality is transforming of defending and attacking shape. more attacking tactics is more players will leave their defoult position in formation. they will also do it more often. via versa defensive tactics try their formations not to get too streched by attacking moves as they leave space for opposition to use. that is a forward runs segment of tactics.

mentality in my opinoum shouln't have influence on how quick the ball gets forward as it does now in FM. passing style and tempo should influence that.



-what are attacking/defensive duties?

the most attacking tactic is one in which all 10 (11) players attack equaly and they think only about attacking/moving forward. of course such a tactic (gung ho) isn't possibile to play all the time. that's why there are duties. basic distinction would be that defenders defend and attackers attack. but in football all players do both. not nacessery at same intensity.

it means that duty is an instruction. more defensive it is less player has to bother with attacking moves (dribling, creating chances, going forward, shooting...). but again it is a tendency. even centre back have their attacking duties and strikers defensive duties.

tactical duties/instructions are (few of many): stay back/hold your position (more often), go forward (more often), try through balls, drible, hug line, double mark opponent, come deep, back off (easy tackle) opponent, playmaker, target man roles...



nice suggestion would be that those prefered moves could become player duties/instructions.

another thing that needs changing is forward runs. they are allready given by mentality; team mentality. so we wouldn't have to use forward runs slider anymore, only mentality. if we wanted our DC to stay back we would just tick "stay back" instruction, for example.

I understand player mentality as " [I]positional height on set position[/I] ". example; giving your MC the most attacking mentality he becomes smth like 2nd striker, or "very attacking attacking midfielder", when team is in ball posession. via versa giving him the most defensive mentality he acts more like "very defensive DM", when team is without the ball. also I would change the number of notches on player mentality.



maybe the most significant thing about team and player mentality is that they are not the same. it also means they shouldn't over-write each other. it also means that, more defensive team mentality is, more defensive duties/ more players with dfensive duties should be present. and via versa.

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posted by tigerhrrrrr:

The problem as I see it is:
To get a player to perform a tactical instruction you have to adjust the sliders in the correct combinations, agreed?. Though those have been analysed in T&TF some will contradict each other though the IRL those player instructions wouldnt. I think each player should have a set of routines which are selected by drop down menu and when that is done the slider move to automatic positions to meet that instruction taking into account the players position on the field. Then the players stats & PPM's decide how well the instruction is executed. If SI cant do that it is surely an admission that the slider system is faulty?

The tactical "fun" of FM should be giving the right general instructions to players (IRL eg "you full back, overlap the winger, but if we lose position get back quick & tuck in") not tweaking sliders & trying to achieve the result desired.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
some hypothetical thoughts about mentality.



-WHAT IS MENTALITY?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree almost all u told here, but there is something to add IMO:
- when a team play defensively, their players should avoid to take risks; so when near they own area with opponents closing down, kick the ball away or however try a long ball instead than try a dribbling (--> dont risk to lose ball conceding a easy chance)
- obivously when a team play with attacking mentality, their players should try to retain the ball even when opponents are closing down.

Sorry for my english

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FORMATION;DEFENSIVE SHAPE AND MOVEMENT

defensive and attacking shapes of formations could actually be different. sometimes it's hard to say what formation the team is playing, IRE. due to free roles, unpredictable movements, tactical discipline, human factor and def/att shapes of formation.

as it is now, FM formation aspect is very old and will need to change. some other games are way ahead on this metter. (as I read, becouse I didn't play them, only PES). I think in FIFA you can choose defensive and attacking formation (4-5-1, 4-3-3; 4-4-2, 2-4-4). good solution but not perfect.

I think when defending, team is suposed to know it's formation. also it is important to stay in it and hold it. on the other hand when attacking the team needs to be unpredictable. it means that attacking shape isn't so defined, due to constant movement of players. of couse there are teams who play with more tactical discipline, more in shape so they can return easily to defensive formation/shape. but more dangerous it wants to be, more movement and risk is needed. both positioning and movement is maybe my biggest resentment to FM for years.

managers devote great attention to this metter. quick transformation from narrow and compact defensive shape to attacking positions. it's all about movement.



DEFENSIVE FORMATION/SHAPE


WHAT IS IT?

it's just the shape taken by players to defend when the ball isn't in posession.

4-4-2, 5-3-2, 4-1-4-1. any known formation.

important things are marking systems, defensive line, width, presing styles...



Football Manager:

when the formation is choosen you set both att/def shapes of it. this needs to be separated. in my opinoum you should be able to choose your defensive formation. attacking formation should be based on mentality, tactical discipline (how much you want your players to leave their postitions, given individualy) and movement of players.

my proof is that there are not 2 teams who play flat 4-4-2 exatcly the same. their defensive shapes are pretty much the same but attacking shapes are different. it would be much easier to me if I could draw, but I'll put it in numbers.

so 4-4-2 is defensive formation. attacking formation could be anything from 4-4-2, 2-4-4, 2-2-2-2-2, 2-4-2-2 any combination even 3-3-4 if you want. all this is a tendency depending on many factors (mentality, movement...)



ATTACKING TRANSORMATION


this is where things should change the most. I know we have arrows and barrows and sarrows. problem is that this kind of movement is too strict and not suficient. anyone who played old CMs remebers you could choose def/att positioning of your players in all 3 (was it even 5?) of the pitch (own area, centre and opponent area).

and that could be very interesting solution to the movement of players. so it's movement instead of only positioning as it was back then. you should be able to define your player's movement for each part of the field. with arrows. not just 1 arrow. it's smth like those arrows on PES, but for every part of the pitch. it's important becouse you might want your players to move diffrently in thier own half or near opponent goal. of course players shouldn't follow your movement instructions to blindly. so again it should be understanded more like tendency.

in this way we should be able to play our pacey right winger on the flank, triyng to cross or come into box. much like wingers play now on FM. let's say arrow(s) in the final third of the pitch would look like this:

l
l
l
M R
l
l
l

this should meen his mein movement is down the line. he should be allowed to come deeper for the ball or go forward. team mentality should define how often he should go forward.



I would like my right footed left winger to act like one. so I should be able to define his movement with arrows like this:


M L -->
l
l
l

this means that his movement should be oriented toward more central positions (cutting inside) and that I want him to come deep more often. of course it doesn't meen that's he shouldn't get forward when apropriate.


mentality is very important factor. team mentality should define how much/ how often you want your players to go forward. tactical discipline (maybe better expression would be how much free role you give to a player, so free role slider) should define how often player leaves his defoult position and moves around.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When I start ordering professional tactical training books off Amazon to try and attempt to understand a PC game, I know there is something wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
[img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I did do that kind of thing too. Haha.

Well, thanx Mitja and I'm coming here.

First I want to be nice and fair to say again that this is a good game and apparently has its own advantage comparing to other football managing games on the market. And we appreciate the efforts SI made all through these years and now I'm not young anymore either. But since other games are still chasing FM series and they really did a lot of nice hard work I believe, so we should not loose our concentration on continuously improving the game (FM series).

As many wise guy points out, the ME (match engine) is the heart of the football game. I can see some obvious progress like: in previous version (I don't remember which one maybe fm2006) wingers always take the ball to the byline and make crosses but mostly deflected by defender to become a corner; then in the later version wingers' movement has improved they seem more intelligent and now in FM 2008 we can see the wingers are good on deciding when to dribble or cross or pass back or shoot. And the strikers are also much better cos' previously they just shoot and rarely make crosses to other teammate with better chance. And in 8.0 I also remember some nice dribbles wingers make that they use fake moves and tricks to shake defenders behind by sudden accelerating. But in 8.0.1 I don't see that again or not so beautiful and realistic. Maybe it's that SI tweak the effect of acceleration down too much. And I'm always suspicious that the 8.0 and 8.0.1 are based on different match engine system, also to 7.0 and 7.0.1. If I'm right SI might be mad at me and if I'm wrong it might be because of the too much difference between patch *.0.1 to *.0. [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Hehe

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After thinking all these days I decide not to concentrate on some certain behaviour of the players which the match engine provides. I think maybe it's like this (I don't know if I'm right or you would agree with me):

1. The game is well-orgainzied and possess the best database in the world. So many attributes to a player, a staff, a club, a competition and others.

2. When the game starts large amount of statistics will be generated mostly by the ME (match engine). Most importantly the final result of matches, the shot on target of both team, the possession, the fouls, the runs, key passess, key interceptions. All these stats are generated by the ME. And these stats must be "in line with real world data" as we can see in the changelist. And to achieve that goal match engine must be tuned and tweaked because it is the only one who generates all these stats. It's so crucial and core part of the game.

3. So that's why I understand it's not an easy job for SI, because we're still complaining about so much. Ok, to sum up, I feel in this way, I'm not asking to let us create some tactic that is stable and consistant and be winning matches all along. I mean it's ok if I lose, as long as I can see the players do their best on the pitch and they make some nice individual and teamwork moves and I feel I'm like watching a real match. The game has to be enjoyable and that's dependant on how much realism it has when watching the 2d match. I mean maybe I don't understand match engine well and I don't make good tactics and my team loses, it's ok but the match has to look real on 2d screen. Irl when you watch the match on TV you can always see players helping each other, when a player has the ball the other players will positively move to provide passing options and attacking spaces options. I hope you get what I mean.

I always watch videos of real life football matches when playing FM after I click "Continue" button. [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] There's still much spaces to improve!!!

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It's nice to have my gut feeling confirmed by so many obviously savvy people.

Defender intelligence, or rather the complete lack of it seems to me to be the root cause of most current problems in the ME.

AM's and FC's are made to look good because defenders lack even a shred of the decision making common to their rl counterparts.
This also contributes to the super keeper myth, because keepers are having to make far more saves than they should due to defender incompetence.

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it's strange to see how many different feelings abouth this game there are. many people claiming it's the best you can get and others who quit playing it. that's really weird to me. I'm defenetly feel this game is un-playable. especially if you're watching your games on full mode. I'm not going to reapeat why I feel so. but the feeling that everything is so random in this game is maybe the strongest. some reallity factor is missing. you loose against some C-league club in one match and then you beat Chalsea awey. and so on. that's the feeling I get reading people's posts here as I quit playing this game and never got into it. (half a season is what I played).

I have a feeling that tactics are too important now. player does too much what he is said. on the other hand there is not much what you could say to him. together with poor inteligence of players (ME). put this together with all the features that have influence on match (ME) and you get one big messi computor game, unfortunatlly. the only way out as I can see is to re-make this whole aspect of the game. simplicity and player (pre-set) inteligence is the key.


PS what I mean by pre set inteligence; defender should know how to mark slow but tall striker and how to mark fast striker. so all you would have to so is to warn your defender what type of striker he will be dealing with.

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posted by hexus:

I saw this topic and felt compelled to contribute. I've played very game in the CM/FM series and have to say features wise, FM08 is the best yet. I love the little extras in the commentry like "Sam Alladyce in the Stands today" to add to transfer speculation. The tactics ae simple and easy to set up, training is good, transfers etc, etc.

All that aside, i am having a horrendous time with my Spurs team. Currently lying 19th in the Prem after 12 games, i can't seem to get a win from anywhere. I have no idea where i'm going wrong. It's getting to point where i'm just gonna write it off until the next patch.

At first i thought i brough too much upheaval to the team but bringing in too many new coaches at the start of the season, so i started a new game and just brought in 1 coach, Stefano Eranio as my defence coach, and promoted one of my Youth Team coaches. I only brought in two players, Lorik Cana as a midfield hardman, and Roman Riquelme to bolster the midfield. Still no luck.

I tried a number of tactics, one which got me beaten by least amount goals i've come across was Croats 4-2-3-1. I even sometimes got the occasional win.

Then i thought, my tactics are wrong, so i looked slowed the matches down, watched on extended highlights and started playing more defensively. Still losing.
I started looking at my opponents tactics and tried to counter them by stifling the space opponents attackers had. Still getting smashed.

The final straw really came when i was playing away against Everton and total hammered them without scoring. By the 80th minute i'd 20 shots, 14 on target without scoring, game poised at 0-0. On comes James Vaughan - bang 1-0 Everton. Two minutes later 2-0 Everton.

Clearly i have no idea what is going on, and where i'm going wrong. I've started numerous new games and used tactics people claim to have had success with, i've tried simplifying, i've tried complicating.

NOTHING WORKS!!!!

Still i will carry on. But clearly i'm not the only one who thinks there's something going on with the AI that's just unbalanced.
I don't want an easy game, but i don't want a game which is like getting beaten with a stick. At the moment I find the in bits in between matches like transfers and training are more fun then matched and thats just simply wrong.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
It's nice to have my gut feeling confirmed by so many obviously savvy people.

Defender intelligence, or rather the complete lack of it seems to me to be the root cause of most current problems in the ME.

AM's and FC's are made to look good because defenders lack even a shred of the decision making common to their rl counterparts.
This also contributes to the super keeper myth, because keepers are having to make far more saves than they should due to defender incompetence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive been saying this all along (as I believe correctly or incorrectly that SI chose to nerf finishing rather than focus on sorting out defending which was not entirely fixed by the closing down fix).

Defenders just dont act as if they are solid objects.

They (and midfielders too) constantly fail to cut off passing avenues, track runs, block runs, man mark players (is clever movement really portrayed by the defender running away from his marker for no reason?!), even hold a line (no matter what you put in your tactics one player will always step out of position and leave a gap or stay deep and play players onside) and any winger with pace can ping crosses in for fun as fullbacks just may as well not be there (which is why Ive switched to 3 at the back and just gone hell for leather).

Plus the way the ME is setup means a wide game is tantamount to suicide due to the gaps left- yet if your opponent has wide wingers you have to play wide or your DR/DL will not get close to them.

Apart from the lack of player intelligence in general (a good example is having to make sure their are options for your DM to pass to otherwise he loses the ball- erm howabout my players realise this and arent so static?) is the longterm issue that even though the tactical interface is complicated it is not sophisticated. We cannot have differing widths- so say we want a 5 man expansive mifield, we cannot at the same time have our fullbacks tucking in.

Playing with slowish defenders is almost impossible- I managed to sign John Terry and Ledley King for L1 Burnley, both have everything except blistering pace (King still had 11 pace) and stamina but all their mental and technical attributes were still there.

Good enough for L1 you would think, if I played deep and with a quick DM, DR, DL? Nah, they got caned every game and in the end I just put in my two quickest DCs who were much more effective.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kriss:

Playing with slowish defenders is almost impossible- I managed to sign John Terry and Ledley King for L1 Burnley, both have everything except blistering pace (King still had 11 pace) and stamina but all their mental and technical attributes were still there.

Good enough for L1 you would think, if I played deep and with a quick DM, DR, DL? Nah, they got caned every game and in the end I just put in my two quickest DCs who were much more effective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

isn't that pathetic?

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Not pathetic, just wrong, but being accusative doesn't get the problem solved.

These issues are now being addressed but tuning and testing the ME is a long and painful process.

SI don't cause these issues intentionally and because of the sometimes ludicrous complaints on here it takes time to syphon out the real from the imagined.

As I've said before you can't really give progress reports on ME developement, it's either in progress or done, no in betweens.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Not pathetic, just wrong, but being accusative doesn't get the problem solved.

These issues are now being addressed but tuning and testing the ME is a long and painful process.

SI don't cause these issues intentionally and because of the sometimes ludicrous complaints on here it takes time to syphon out the real from the imagined.

As I've said before you can't really give progress reports on ME developement, it's either in progress or done, no in betweens. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what is real and what imagined? I remeber this

"A greatly improved match engine, once again utilizing the footballing brain of Ray Houghton and other tools used by real-life managers, to make the most accurate simulation of football in a computer game even more like-life than ever before. Oh, and the ability to change the pitch dimensions at the start of the season to suit your style of play better".

and we get this. untested -waitnig- for- the- next- patch- ME. sorry for being acusative.

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Am i the only person who thought that the FM07 ME was more than acceptable?

[B]It was possible to create consistent tactics that didn't need tweaking every 3 games.[/B]

[B]Strikers scored one-on-ones[/B]

etc etc etc

Basically i'm not sure why they changed it to the extent that they did (any chance of an SI word on this?)

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One reason was to try improving the things in the 07 engine which people complained about, and they did complain, and there was scope for improvement.

Also the the ME is always being worked on, trying for more realism and adding extras like the new goal celebrations.

As we've seen it can go wrong and trying to get it right in a hurry is almost certain to lead to different problems.

It's damned annoying but SI will get there in the end.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
[url="http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273"]This thread[/url] contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

even though your thread is more like wishlist thread not discussion. I changed my mind [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't suggesting the wishlist thread should replace this one. Just that there were some good ideas in there which should be taken into account in this discussion. [img]http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif[/img]

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:
Am i the only person who thought that the FM07 ME was more than acceptable?

[B]It was possible to create consistent tactics that didn't need tweaking every 3 games.[/B]

[B]Strikers scored one-on-ones[/B]

etc etc etc

Basically i'm not sure why they changed it to the extent that they did (any chance of an SI word on this?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The match stats in FM07 were more acceptable - yes, but the match engine wasn't.

I agree that the current version is really frustrating and I've posted many times about my thoughts on this. However, don't you also think that the games now look more "real" than they did in FM07?

I think the movement (offensively) is much more realistic in FM08 and it now looks more like the flow of a game. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic about this, but I think that with a bit more attention given to the positioning, marking and tackling, we could have something that works really well. [Then of course we need more tactical options to allow us to use these more effectively]

Only SI know how close they are to this and how much further development is involved to achieve this, but despite my frustrations I do think they are on the right lines.

I also believe that it is because of the increased attention to the attacking behaviour, that we have so many shots on goal which is why SI have had to tone down the effectiveness of finishing and composure to compensate for this - otherwise we'd have games finishing 23-17.

The current tactics system is actually too simple. It is too simple in that there are not enough options to achieve what you want to. This makes attacking quite straight forward because the options in attack are far fewer than when you are operating defensively. The positioning by players (including one-twos) offensively in FM08 is pretty good I think. But take a moment to pause your game when defending and you'll see just how poor the positioning of players is. And they are also ineffective in the tackle. Has dribbling perhaps been too heavily weighted in this version?

Someone earler mentioned the lack of effectiveness of full-backs. This is true and it is why wingers are now so effective in the game. But SI have achieved big differences in the quality of the engine in the past by tweaking things here and there so I don't believe that this should be a major problem to change. But not being very technical myself, I'm not sure.

This lack of "defensive intelligence" from the players is causing me to change the formations and tactics more than in previous versions which is no problem as a workaround. But the formation should be able to be consistent while making changes to the tactics (sliders or whatever) to achieve the desired effects for individual games.

As for SIs response to this thread ...... Miles and a few others have been involved in some of these discussions recently and it's good to hear from them. Although we'd all like to hear from them more often, I'd personally settle for 2 things in the meantime.

- Get the best possible quality into the patch (which I'm sure they are doing already)
- Let us know the proposed changes to make the forums a more hospitable place to come and exchange views. Afterall, some of the nonsense on these forums is cited as the reason why SI don't get involved as much. Then we can all get back to having some really good debate about some of these issues- with SI's involvement.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SI don't cause these issues intentionally and because of the sometimes ludicrous complaints on here it takes time to syphon out the real from the imagined. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I mean the ME in 8.0 is more like-life though it has bugs of course but I think maybe it was tweaked too much, so that I don't see those good realist movements anymore in 8.0.1.
In 8.0 you can see your forwards receive the high ball with good anticipation and be in good position to hold back his marker to control the ball, or he can head the ball aside to the following-up wingers just like irl how ManUtd plays. Even Saha and Rooney can hold back defenders to jump to head the ball to wings for Giggs or Ronaldo to receive and cross. Don't need to debate or argue I just watched the videos today again and that's what realistic football and in 8.0.1 I don't see my forwards winning any headers while in 8.0 they did very well in controlling the ball. To confirm that I can even do test again with 8.0 versus 8.0.1 and if that's true I think SI still needs to improve or recover some original good parameters in the ME.

As Mitja said there would so much feeling about the game so I'd like to say that at least there's one thing in common sense that tactics should influence much less on the players when it comes to some basic situations and basic knowledge of playing football. I mean no matter what tactics is given to players they should know what and how to do under some certain circumstances cos' they're professional football players. It's just like the language we are using, whatever language there's always language first and then people can summary out some grammar. But the language(football) itself is always fluent and alive, the grammar(tactics) is just some rigid and stiff rules.

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Let's see. i've started a game with barca, using the match engine and playing with my tactic which i've been using since fm06, with little tweaks to fit the new games. It was just horrible. I mean, not at all even average. I was even losing to most average teams at home. Players usually did the contrary to what i told them to do. Ratings, statistics and everything else sucked for a long time.

Well, then i quit the game and decided to begin the season again with barca and same tactic again. But this time without the match engine, only commentary. Suddenly everything turned out to be amazing. I won all the matches which the team deserved. My player's ratings, assists, shots on goals,tacklings, all were more realistic. Team was following the orders. Doing what i told them through the tactic. Since then i never use match engine. I know some issues have been fixed with the patch. But still i hear too many complaints about the ME. And don't know what 8.0.2 or what 8.0.x will bring.

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my opinoum on 7.0.2 ME is that it was too easy. maybe it was fun, but not to me. unrealistic for sure. I'm not saying 8.0.1 is too hard, it's too stup.. I'm sorry I just can't find better word or more suitable.

I must agree everything what Arnoldzhu (best post here, by far [img]http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif[/img]) said about 8.0. I was quite suprised with it. some things really looked like in real life. unfortunatly had closing down bug, too many fouls, off sides and canceled goals. but 8.0 and 8.0.1 don't look like they have much incomon, if I remeber well.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mantis616:
Let's see. i've started a game with barca, using the match engine and playing with my tactic which i've been using since fm06, with little tweaks to fit the new games. It was just horrible. I mean, not at all even average. I was even losing to most average teams at home. Players usually did the contrary to what i told them to do. Ratings, statistics and everything else sucked for a long time.

Well, then i quit the game and decided to begin the season again with barca and same tactic again. But this time without the match engine, only commentary. Suddenly everything turned out to be amazing. I won all the matches which the team deserved. My player's ratings, assists, shots on goals,tacklings, all were more realistic. Team was following the orders. Doing what i told them through the tactic. Since then i never use match engine. I know some issues have been fixed with the patch. But still i hear too many complaints about the ME. And don't know what 8.0.2 or what 8.0.x will bring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



wooow I was allway suspicious about that. I know this isn't the proof, but I also noticed that. feeling it's not the same when I'm watching the game or only on key hightlights. It's a feeling (suddenly posession changes, chances created by one side then turn to other, or there were 3 tackles by both side and million fouls in 20 minutes and all of the sudden there are 15 tackles made in 10 minutes or 10 off sides when watching and none after that...).

hey, but mantis played a season. can you give us some proof MANTIS?

I wonder if SI would respon.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">wooow I was allway suspicious about that. I know this isn't the proof, but I also noticed that. feeling it's not the same when I'm watching the game or only on key hightlights. It's a feeling (suddenly posession changes, chances created by one side then turn to other, or there were 3 tackles by both side and million fouls in 20 minutes and all of the sudden there are 15 tackles made in 10 minutes or 10 off sides when watching and none after that...).

hey, but mantis played a season. can you give us some proof MANTIS?

I wonder if SI would respon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be happy to share it but that was a month ago and now i play with A.C Milan. But i'm hell sure that anyone dares to try that(both playing with Me and Only Comm.) will realise the fact. I'm not saying the ME is worst, damn bad and not playable, as with 8.0.1 some issues have changed but it is also still far from being satisfying, when you know that there is a Only commentary chance to play the game, which sounds a lot better.

I don't know the technical matters much. So i might be also wrong on that. That if when playing in Only Commentary mode, ME still works and we only see words from it or that they're totally different. Right now they sound totally different to me and Only Comm. sounds a lot better to enjoy the game as it produces much reality and makes me feel more and more into a Real Manager Simulation. Hope SI will comment on this.

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I don't think SI will comment on this because they've already done so many times before. The match engine is exactly the same, regardless of whether you use commentary only or watch the full match.

The reason I know this is because it is well documented now how the match day works.

Firstly, as soon as you press the play button, the match [B]has already been played[/B]. Afterall, how can you watch highlights if it hasn't?

Then, each time you make changes to the tactics during the game (including subs, etc), the match engine is run from this point onwards before you get to see any more highlights. This is how it goes on until the end of the game. Actually I can't remember if it only works it out half by half but that is largely irrelevant.

So, as you can see, it doesn't matter how you choose to watch the highlights of the game, we've already been told many times before that it doesn't matter.

The only time it does matter is if you choose to go on holiday because then your assistant chooses who is in the various positions, tactics, and substitutions - unless otherwise specified.

Hope this helps clarify this issue a little for you.

What is really important is that you carefully consider your posts before jumping to conclusions. There are many well documented reasons why teams can suddenly go from losing to winning streaks seemingly overnight. Some of these reasons we can argue about in terms of their relation to reality (i.e. how important morale actually does affect players in real life compared to in the game, weather conditions suddenly making short passing games impossible and hence tactics not working during the winter months, buying "better" players and finding that the team does not do as well - usually because this player has overall higher CA, but not as good attributes in the key areas).

I have my own opinions on the weightings of these these issues and needless to say I disagree with some of them in the way they are implemented in the game, but if you appreciate that these things do affect your team, you learn to deal with them accordingly.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:
I don't think SI will comment on this because they've already done so many times before. The match engine is exactly the same, regardless of whether you use commentary only or watch the full match.

The reason I know this is because it is well documented now how the match day works.

Firstly, as soon as you press the play button, the match [B]has already been played[/B]. Afterall, how can you watch highlights if it hasn't?

Then, each time you make changes to the tactics during the game (including subs, etc), the match engine is run from this point onwards before you get to see any more highlights. This is how it goes on until the end of the game. Actually I can't remember if it only works it out half by half but that is largely irrelevant.

So, as you can see, it doesn't matter how you choose to watch the highlights of the game, we've already been told many times before that it doesn't matter.

The only time it does matter is if you choose to go on holiday because then your assistant chooses who is in the various positions, tactics, and substitutions - unless otherwise specified.

Hope this helps clarify this issue a little for you.

What is really important is that you carefully consider your posts before jumping to conclusions. There are many well documented reasons why teams can suddenly go from losing to winning streaks seemingly overnight. Some of these reasons we can argue about in terms of their relation to reality (i.e. how important morale actually does affect players in real life compared to in the game, weather conditions suddenly making short passing games impossible and hence tactics not working during the winter months, buying "better" players and finding that the team does not do as well - usually because this player has overall higher CA, but not as good attributes in the key areas).

I have my own opinions on the weightings of these these issues and needless to say I disagree with some of them in the way they are implemented in the game, but if you appreciate that these things do affect your team, you learn to deal with them accordingly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



I think what mantis said is very imoprtant and he has every right to say what he wants. I noticed that too. as I said 10 off sides in 20 minutes and none after that, 3 tackles and then suddenly 15. it might be a coincidence, but this is happening to me all the time. to go further on that metter, check out the amount of off sides on your games and then check out it's number on other matches. I don't take things for granted and I believe only what I see, more than what I read.

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forgot to say I was playing on 1st beta, my last game.

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