Can the tactic masters please explain this to me?

[thejay]

Ok, I'll reiterate that I haven't read every word of every response, so maybe I missed something.

We are now willing to accept that there may be a logical in game reason for Samper choosing, what you consider, perhaps the 3rd best passing option open to him, so we'll go ahead and move past that. I don't mind the pass to the oncoming full back, you hate it. Each to his own.

So, and apologies if this has been detailed above, but what is it you're looking for from your attacking wide players? What's your vision for your tactic?

No problem, its also not the main issue I think.

I was just especially annoyed because it was one rare time when ifs and false 9 moved like they should and the cm still chose another option.

Most of the time the ifs just get sucked in narrow leaving only the fullback as a passing option.

I want the ifs to start in a wide position and then cut inside , or move diagonally into space wasted by the false nine.

How it is now is that the ifs either don't make the right runs at all or move incredible narrow prematurely without the ball leaving only the fullback as a passing option.

[Cleon]

No problem, its also not the main issue I think.

I was just especially annoyed because it was one rare time when ifs and false 9 moved like they should and the cm still chose another option.

Most of the time the ifs just get sucked in narrow leaving only the fullback as a passing option.

I want the ifs to start in a wide position and then cut inside , or move diagonally into space wasted by the false nine.

How it is now is that the ifs either don't make the right runs at all or move incredible narrow prematurely without the ball leaving only the fullback as a passing option.

You need to unrestrict the MC's if you want them to pass earlier and attempt different. Lose the TI's that force the midfielders to dwell on the ball more and restrict their passing making it slow, it kills all your build up. Also either pick someone more suitable than Samper or make him lose the PPM's that is also hindering you. Yes he's a good player but hes part of your issue due to the PPM as his tendency is to use it more often than he should and again this kills your build up. Retain possession and shorter passing are slowing the attack phases down and seeing players make runs and not be used. It really is that simple. So in short it's caused by;

A bad PPM for the style you're trying to create

Two TI's that aren't aiding the cause either.

Your play is very predictable, if you watch games you'll notice the same patterns time and time again. The central pairing get the ball, IF's move inwards and get marked because the central players dwell on the ball and make slow decisions. When they finally decide to release the ball they don't really have the inside forward as a passing option so go wide. Or one of your MC's decides to switch play to the wings due to the PPM. Although I did see them pass to the IF's quite a few times in the PKM I watched but it's all too slow. This is down to the TI's you use as the AP/DLP role on support is already quite reserved and the use to the possession and shorter passing TI only makes it worsen.

[thejay]

But the roles do that you've used because you have a lack of options when the IF's move too early and the central midfielders you use don't use them because you've restricted what they can do when they have the ball. Add to this that your DLP likes to switch the ball to the flanks then you aren't really going to do anything else other than cross because the IF's will be central and the only free players you have are the fullbacks.

You want the IF's to be used more and hit early but they aren't making intelligent movement. It's like they're too high and aggressive in build up play and this is making it hard for the players who feed them the ball

If you can tell me how I can make the ifs behave differently , that's all the advice I need really, I exactly don't want them to do what you are describing here. They are not on attack duty but support.

t's like we are giving you answers and there is always an excuse from yourself why you can't do this or that. Or you say you've tried it etc without offering more about what you actually tried and how it differed. You're looking for someone to tell you all the answers without using the information given and seeing what works for you best and what you're creating.

I am not excusing anything, I have often repeated that the main issue for me is how the ifs beave, the only advice you or other people actually gave that is related to this is not closing down the gk , which did change noth

It's been hard to get information out of you for some bizarre reason. You was asked in the 3rd post to provide more information yet you didn't post your tactic until post 67. Surely you have to see how frustrating this is for us, you seek help yet aren;t forthright with the information making it hard to give you and advice.

I did write the formation and gave the basic instructions I use much earlier, I did not provide them in the first place because a decision like that should not be made regardless of instructions.

[Cleon]

I did write the formation and gave the basic instructions I use much earlier, I did not provide them in the first place because a decision like that should not be made regardless of instructions.

Except the decision keeps getting made because of your TI's and the PPM the player has, it's no coincidence that your AP doesn't switch the ball to the wing as much as the player with the PPM. So ofc course it's important, if not what is the point of settings and PPM's? We'd not need them if they didn't really matter or factor into decision making

[Keyzer Soze]

If you can tell me how I can make the ifs behave differently , that's all the advice I need really, I exactly don't want them to do what you are describing here. They are not on attack duty but support.

I think the advice Cleon is trying to give you, is that the problem is not so much the IF's but your midfield.

Get your midfield trio right with your team instructions, and vice-versa, and you'll see the IF getting the ball earlier.

[thejay]

You need to unrestrict the MC's if you want them to pass earlier and attempt different. Lose the TI's that force the midfielders to dwell on the ball more and restrict their passing making it slow, it kills all your build up. Also either pick someone more suitable than Samper or make him lose the PPM's that is also hindering you. Yes he's a good player but hes part of your issue due to the PPM as his tendency is to use it more often than he should and again this kills your build up. Retain possession and shorter passing are slowing the attack phases down and seeing players make runs and not be used. It really is that simple. So in short it's caused by;

A bad PPM for the style you're trying to create

Two TI's that aren't aiding the cause either.

Your play is very predictable, if you watch games you'll notice the same patterns time and time again. The central pairing get the ball, IF's move inwards and get marked because the central players dwell on the ball and make slow decisions. When they finally decide to release the ball they don't really have the inside forward as a passing option so go wide. Or one of your MC's decides to switch play to the wings due to the PPM. Although I did see them pass to the IF's quite a few times in the PKM I watched but it's all too slow. This is down to the TI's you use as the AP/DLP role on support is already quite reserved and the use to the possession and shorter passing TI only makes it worsen.

So remove retain possession and slower tempo?

I tried the same setup I use with a cf support than false nine which makes the ifs move better and cms more involved.

I really want to make the false nine if combination work though, is it only down to the midfield roles?

[ndebergerac]

I was just especially annoyed because it was one rare time when ifs and false 9 moved like they should and the cm still chose another option.

Most of the time the ifs just get sucked in narrow leaving only the fullback as a passing option.

I want the ifs to start in a wide position and then cut inside , or move diagonally into space wasted by the false nine.

How it is now is that the ifs either don't make the right runs at all or move incredible narrow prematurely without the ball leaving only the fullback as a passing option.

Understood.

I've yet to utilize IFs in FM2016 and completely abandoned trying to use them in FM2015, so I'm certainly to expert on their usage. The IF(S) role seems to suggest they will act in a behavior that you desire, but in FM2015 I also found them incredibly frustrating, so took on a tactical overhaul and dismissed the position completely.

So, in theory, how do we get wide players to hold a wider position until the time is right to make an infield run looking for the space in behind the retreated F9? A very difficult task I'm sure, timing is everything and it's probably not something we can expect to be overly successful given it's reliance on 2 or 3 players making the correct off the ball movements simultaneously and the ball player making a good decision to complete the through ball. However, as you haven't mentioned the F9 much, and in the example shown he does appear to be dropping off and dragging a defender out, I'll assume he's doing his role pretty well.

So, we could try playing the wide players as Raumdeuter. He should hold a wider position and when space opens up around the box, make moves into it. As a defensive player, he'll probably offer little, but the role may be better suited to what your looking for in the attacking 3rd.

I've tried and failed to utilize IFs in FM, so unfortunately I'm not full of advice on how to get them to play the role you desire. The Raumdeuter idea is fairly speculative, but comes with logical thinking. Someone (yourself?) whom has used them may be able to shoot down the idea.

[Cleon]

So remove retain possession and slower tempo?

I tried the same setup I use with a cf support than false nine which makes the ifs move better and cms more involved.

With two playmakers behind the F9 do you really need a striker who drops deep? Normally you'd use a F9 or DLF when he is the link to the IF's and feeds them in. However in your set up I'm not sure the F9 helps at all, he moves away from goal but has no-one going into the space he vacates. Plus he isn't really linking the IF's. You might have more success with the AP on attack and a striker who can occupy the oppositions defence and move them back, rather than a striker who is continuously dropping off the front. If not then I'd seriously consider changing the AP to a role that will get beyond the F9 and cause the opposition problems, this will free up space for the IF's and stop them being doubled up.

As for the TI's remove one at a time and see if you notice a difference. I'd first start with the shorter passing one, then tempo and then retain possession in that order because I don't believe playmakers should have passing modifiers and restrict the types of passes they can do. After all you want a playmaker to be effective don't you?

Also the changes above I mention about playmakers and the F9, I'd not try them all in one go or you'd not know which one was working or wasn't. It's easier to change the roles gradually and get a feel for how it behaves compared to your normal approach.

[Keyzer Soze]

The Raumdeuter have instructions to sit narrower, so i don't know if it will helps much.

[thejay]

With two playmakers behind the F9 do you really need a striker who drops deep? Normally you'd use a F9 or DLF when he is the link to the IF's and feeds them in. However in your set up I'm not sure the F9 helps at all, he moves away from goal but has no-one going into the space he vacates. Plus he isn't really linking the IF's. You might have more success with the AP on attack and a striker who can occupy the oppositions defence and move them back, rather than a striker who is continuously dropping off the front. If not then I'd seriously consider changing the AP to a role that will get beyond the F9 and cause the opposition problems, this will free up space for the IF's and stop them being doubled up.

As for the TI's remove one at a time and see if you notice a difference. I'd first start with the shorter passing one, then tempo and then retain possession in that order because I don't believe playmakers should have passing modifiers and restrict the types of passes they can do. After all you want a playmaker to be effective don't you?

Also the changes above I mention about playmakers and the F9, I'd not try them all in one go or you'd not know which one was working or wasn't. It's easier to change the roles gradually and get a feel for how it behaves compared to your normal approach.

Thats why I only used the ap on support not attack , because the false nine should essentially become the 10, when I used a cf , I pushed up the ap to attack duty, which tends to work better.

Do you know why the false nine is not working with the ifs? Why he is not linking up ?

[Cleon]

Thats why I only used the ap on support not attack , because the false nine should essentially become the 10, when I used a cf , I pushed up the ap to attack duty, which tends to work better.

Do you know why the false nine is not working with the ifs? Why he is not linking up ?

Because a F9 is a playmaker but you have two playmakers behind him doing the job he should be doing. That's why I'd consider either changing the AP to a role that gets beyond the AP or keeping the AP and use the striker as a different role. It's hard for the F9 to link when your AP and DLP do the job for him. There's no real need to use both imo it should be one or the other based on the game I saw. I saw enough to see how problematic this would be throughout a season.

[grimslaa]

Based on your current roles, have you considered the shape of your team when you have possession? In my head you'll be set up something similar to:

I've lined up an opposition XI in a 4-3-3 to help demonstrate my point, but based on your team where then would you expect your midfielders to play the ball? To me, your IFs are coming in to a congested area meaning that the only players moving forward and into space are your full backs hence why they receive the ball a lot. Then when your full backs have the ball, what are their options? Surely they have few options other than crossing the ball? I'd imagine you'd see a reduction in crosses by using 'Work Ball in to Box'.

Your full backs will still receive the ball regularly as they would remain the only viable passing option for your midfielders, but you'd at least find them passing the ball inside rather than crossing it.

[Cleon]

Based on your current roles, have you considered the shape of your team when you have possession? In my head you'll be set up something similar to:

I've lined up an opposition XI in a 4-3-3 to help demonstrate my point, but based on your team where then would you expect your midfielders to play the ball? To me, your IFs are coming in to a congested area meaning that the only players moving forward and into space are your full backs hence why they receive the ball a lot. Then when your full backs have the ball, what are their options? Surely they have few options other than crossing the ball? I'd imagine you'd see a reduction in crosses by using 'Work Ball in to Box'.

Your full backs will still receive the ball regularly as they would remain the only viable passing option for your midfielders, but you'd at least find them passing the ball inside rather than crossing it.

This also ties in with my last two posts. His IF's always end up being marked by the oppositions fullback and a central defender. This is why either a change of the AP role into something that gets beyond the F9 regular, or a change of the striker role so he pushes up to occupy the central defenders would be a much better method and make the IF's more involved due to having more space and freeing them up.

[ndebergerac]

The Raumdeuter have instructions to sit narrower, so i don't know if it will helps much.

This is true, but my lack of ability to offer IF forward advice lead to an alternative. They should, in theory, be making the right type of runs, in behind a dropped off forward. Ofc, the opposition full backs should be able to sit narrower restricting the space, but I figured it might be worth trying for a game or 2 (or even a half, if just to eliminate the idea). I've never been able to consistently been able to get IFs to play the way he wants and he's get a ton on different advice, so I considered a fairly simplistic idea that can be quickly incorporated into his existing tactical vision.

[thejay]

Because a F9 is a playmaker but you have two playmakers behind him doing the job he should be doing. That's why I'd consider either changing the AP to a role that gets beyond the AP or keeping the AP and use the striker as a different role. It's hard for the F9 to link when your AP and DLP do the job for him. There's no real need to use both imo it should be one or the other based on the game I saw. I saw enough to see how problematic this would be throughout a season.

What do you mean by job?

I thought the rather conservative mentality of my midfield and ap on support tends them to be less playmakers who play direct balls, so they should involve the false 9 more as a forward playmaker.

And what has that to do with him not linking up with the ifs?

The ap and dlp are more conservative and the false 9 comes deep and acts like a 10 forward hybrid in buildup, when he has the ball the ifs try to offer diagonal runs in order for him to provide through balls .

That how I envisioned it working.

[thejay]

This also ties in with my last two posts. His IF's always end up being marked by the oppositions fullback and a central defender. This is why either a change of the AP role into something that gets beyond the F9 regular, or a change of the striker role so he pushes up to occupy the central defenders would be a much better method and make the IF's more involved due to having more space and freeing them up.

How do you play false nine with ifs then? Not at all?

I can also use winger when I want the central midfielders to push up forward into the box beyond the false nine.

Wouldn that make more sense with wingers stretching the field.

[Keyzer Soze]

Why not try this setup:

F9

W(s)_____________________IF(a)

CM(a)________AP(s)

I can see at least 2 players running to the box (CM and IF), and to suppliers (W and AP).

Winger on support will clear space for the running CM(a), who will take advantage from the space that the F9 will create. The IF(a) will also take advantage from that space.

In the back, the AP(s) will have more options for the killer pass.

[Cleon]

How do you play false nine with ifs then? Not at all?

I can also use winger when I want the central midfielders to push up forward into the box beyond the false nine.

Wouldn that make more sense with wingers stretching the field.

When I use a F9 he is the creator in the centre feeding the two IF's. The roles in midfield are then split, I have one who goes beyond the F9 constantly like a BBM or CMA and the other would be someone to link the ball to the F9 so someone like a DLP, RPM. There's no real need to use two playmakers feeding the F9 because a lot of the time he will be bypassed by the other playmakers.

Just because you used a lower mentality they're still playmakers this doesn't change. On support they just influence the game from deeper and make less runs as a rule. This is why you don't need a F9/DLP/AP trio it makes no real sense and viewing the match you can see why. It's also one of the other reasons the ball goes wide, because why would the AP/DLP feed the ball to the F9 when he comes deep searching for it when they have better placed players racing up the flanks in the fullbacks?

The ap and dlp are more conservative and the false 9 comes deep and acts like a 10 forward hybrid in buildup, when he has the ball the ifs try to offer diagonal runs in order for him to provide through balls .

Except your AP acts like a 10 too so he often doesn't use your F9, your F9 is like a spectator at times watching play go past him without him really doing much. Your AP and F9 are effectively doing a similar thing in the same kind of areas. This also means the only real options are outwide when your striker is so withdrawn. This is why it doesn't make much sense in the setup you use.

Using a winger isn't a sensible idea because who are they going to aim for? Your striker drops deep and the midfield doesn't get into the box. A wingers job is to cross the ball, but that's hard to do with no-one to aim for. If you used wingers you'd deifntly need to change the role of the striker and one midfielder. If not your crossing game will come to nothing.

This is why you have to think of a system as a whole and not as individual roles.

[thejay]

Based on your current roles, have you considered the shape of your team when you have possession? In my head you'll be set up something similar to:

I've lined up an opposition XI in a 4-3-3 to help demonstrate my point, but based on your team where then would you expect your midfielders to play the ball? To me, your IFs are coming in to a congested area meaning that the only players moving forward and into space are your full backs hence why they receive the ball a lot. Then when your full backs have the ball, what are their options? Surely they have few options other than crossing the ball? I'd imagine you'd see a reduction in crosses by using 'Work Ball in to Box'.

Your full backs will still receive the ball regularly as they would remain the only viable passing option for your midfielders, but you'd at least find them passing the ball inside rather than crossing it.

The point is the ifs come inside too early , ideally they should stay wide and make the diagonal run at the right moment . YOur picture is what is actually happening in the game , ifs move inside early and congest the middle.

[Cleon]

The point is the ifs come inside too early , ideally they should stay wide and make the diagonal run at the right moment . YOur picture is what is actually happening in the game , ifs move inside early and congest the middle.

Now look at that picture again and imagine the striker was an advanced forward and playing between the oppositions two central defenders. How free does the IF become? It would also mean the IF's would stay slightly wider as they wouldn't need to come inwards for the ball as quickly. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter much as the central defendersd would also have to mark the striker, which currently in your set up they don't do because he drops deep. This means the IF's come inside early because they're searching for the ball yet the AP or DLP isn't releasing the ball to them early enough. Another reason why the F9 role doesn't work with the current DLP/AP combo. Especially when Samper likes to use the flank as a PPM and he also has come deep for the ball and dictates tempo doesn't he? None of this helps.

Or imagine the AP is a CMA and he would be playing more advanced than the FP, he'd be somewhere between the F9 and IF which again would free the IF up.

[thejay]

When I use a F9 he is the creator in the centre feeding the two IF's. The roles in midfield are then split, I have one who goes beyond the F9 constantly like a BBM or CMA and the other would be someone to link the ball to the F9 so someone like a DLP, RPM. There's no real need to use two playmakers feeding the F9 because a lot of the time he will be bypassed by the other playmakers.^

Is an ap actively searched by the players or a false nine , or is it just a set of instructions?

Because if it is just a set of instructions putting on on cma would make him run into the box more, how would that change the behaviour of the ifs?

Using a winger isn't a sensible idea because who are they going to aim for? Your striker drops deep and the midfield doesn't get into the box. A wingers job is to cross the ball, but that's hard to do with no-one to aim for. If you used wingers you'd deifntly need to change the role of the striker and one midfielder. If not your crossing game will come to nothing.

This is why you have to think of a system as a whole and not as individual roles.

Not a winger in order to cross but to make the field as wide as possible in order to open space in the middle which is then exploited by the central midfielders moving beyond the false nine. So maybe wide target men, or any role that stays wide but does not cross often.

But I dont want to play like that anyway.

[andrewsgn]

This could go in the stupid questions thread but it's relevant to this discussion so thought I would ask it here. Will a right footed inside forward at AMR stay wider than if you had a left footed player there, or does it not matter?

[Cleon]

Is an ap actively searched by the players or a false nine , or is it just a set of instructions?

Because if it is just a set of instructions putting on on cma would make him run into the box more, how would that change the behaviour of the ifs?

Playmakers are hardcoded so that team mates look to use them more than other players. Hence why its currently an issue for you having two players in a similar place doing similar things initially.

Not a winger in order to cross but to make the field as wide as possible in order to open space in the middle which is then exploited by the central midfielders moving beyond the false nine.

It doesn't matter though because the bread and butter of a winger is crossing. So even if you don;t want him to cross, he still will because his settings are tailored for a crossing game and even using PI's, it's still going to be the basis of his role.

So maybe wide target men, or any role that stays wide but does not cross often.

That works but targetmen are also hardcoded so players look to him then early with ball and as frequent as possible.

[thejay]

Now look at that picture again and imagine the striker was an advanced forward and playing between the oppositions two central defenders. How free does the IF become? It would also mean the IF's would stay slightly wider as they wouldn't need to come inwards for the ball as quickly. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter much as the central defendersd would also have to mark the striker, which currently in your set up they don't do because he drops deep. This means the IF's come inside early because they're searching for the ball yet the AP or DLP isn't releasing the ball to them early enough. Another reason why the F9 role doesn't work with the current DLP/AP combo. Especially when Samper likes to use the flank as a PPM and he also has come deep for the ball and dictates tempo doesn't he? None of this helps.

Or imagine the AP is a CMA and he would be playing more advanced than the FP, he'd be somewhere between the F9 and IF which again would free the IF up.

How did barcelona make it work then? Their midfield roles were almost exactly like the aps and dlp role, Iniesta did not make runs in the box regularly and was just the slightly more advanced playmaker compared to Xavi who organised from deeper.

[Cleon]

This could go in the stupid questions thread but it's relevant to this discussion so thought I would ask it here. Will a right footed inside forward at AMR stay wider than if you had a left footed player there, or does it not matter?

No, it's how he uses the ball which would differ but each player is different so it's hard to say by how much etc.

[ndebergerac]

This could go in the stupid questions thread but it's relevant to this discussion so thought I would ask it here. Will a right footed inside forward at AMR stay wider than if you had a left footed player there, or does it not matter?

Depending on PPM and strength of his left foot, but yeah, generally expect him to be more likely to stay on his right foot and in wider areas than if he was a left footer.

[thejay]

Playmakers are hardcoded so that team mates look to use them more than other players. Hence why its currently an issue for you having two players in a similar place doing similar things initially.

Ok I did not know that, since the ability to assign specific playmakers is gone. Is the false nine also treated as such?

[ndebergerac]

No, it's how he uses the ball which would differ but each player is different so it's hard to say by how much etc.

Interesting. In FM2015, I definitely found a player on the wrong side would be much less likely to come inside and more likely to hold position or go down the right.

[Cleon]

How did barcelona make it work then? Their midfield roles were almost exactly like the aps and dlp role, Iniesta did not make runs in the box regularly and was just the slightly more advanced playmaker compared to Xavi who organised from deeper.

Because Barcelona did it irl and you're trying to do it in the game? Are you seriously asking how real life and a game differ?

[Cleon]

Interesting. In FM2015, I definitely found a player on the wrong side would be much less likely to come inside and more likely to hold position or go down the right.

Like I said, it depends on the individual. Just because someone is more comfy on a different foot doesn't mean they stay wider. It might mean they go wider with the ball at times on their favorable foot but that doesn't necessarily mean they stay wider. Going and staying are two different things. There's also no guarantee he will go wider too, especially when the role has settings to encourage them to cut inside.

[Cleon]

Ok I did not know that, since the ability to assign specific playmakers is gone. Is the false nine also treated as such?

Yes which is why I've stated several times using both are wasted in your set up for what you're wanting.

[thejay]

Because Barcelona did it irl and you're trying to do it in the game? Are you seriously asking how real life and a game differ?

No , I am trying to make real life tactical concepts working in the game.

[thejay]

Yes which is why I've stated several times using both are wasted in your set up for what you're wanting.

Yes, but now I understand why, it make sense when aps are actively searched by other players.

Can I recreate the ap support role using instructions ? Like a cm for example with the same instructions as an ap, would he behave in the same way but without the other players treating him as a main playmaker?

[Keyzer Soze]

Funny, i never thought that the roles of Iniesta and Xavi were AP(s) and DLP(s).

Always believe they were more in line of a RPM(s) and DLP(s) or even a CM(s) and DLP(s), with the CM(s) having the instruction to roam from position.

Iniesta was always all over the pitch.

[Cleon]

No , I am trying to make real life tactical concepts working in the game.

No, you used the real life example and made the point of asking how Barca made it work. You compared real life to FM and why something wasn't working the same. The game isn't real life, it doesn't imitate/simulate real life football. Sooner you realise the two differ drastically, the sooner you can actually start to create what you're trying to achieve and get it to work.

You've had more than enough information to give you food for thought for solutions now.

[Cleon]

Yes, but now I understand why, it make sense when aps are actively searched by other players.

Can I recreate the ap support role using instructions ? Like a cm for example with the same instructions as an ap, would he behave in the same way but without the other players treating him as a main playmaker?

Yes but why? You'll still have two players in the same space doing the same thing, albeit one of them wont be a playmaker but that means very little. It's pointless trying to change the role to exactly the same one, even though it wont be classed as a playmaker it doesn't go anywhere near fixing your actual issue. You want a player doing something different to what the F9 does, not a player that is imitating him.

[thejay]

No, you used the real life example and made the point of asking how Barca made it work. You compared real life to FM and why something wasn't working the same. The game isn't real life, it doesn't imitate/simulate real life football. Sooner you realise the two differ drastically, the sooner you can actually start to create what you're trying to achieve and get it to work.

You've had more than enough information to give you food for thought for solutions now.

It would have been simpler if you would have said how the ap is treated in the first place , nothing in the descriptions of false nine or ap suggest that it is hard coded that he is searched by the other players.

I suppose when the ap has the ball an he is treated as a playmaker, the other players behave differently then when he would not be a playmaker?`Like offer himself up for through balls?

[Cleon]

It would have been simpler if you would have said how the ap is treated in the first place , nothing in the descriptions of false nine or ap suggest that it is hard coded that he is searched by the other players.

I suppose when the ap has the ball an he is treated as a playmaker, the other players behave differently then when he would not be a playmaker?`Like offer himself up for through balls?

Would have been simpler if you posted your full set up and instructions when asked in post 3 rather than waiting 64 replies to do so. Then spending the other 74 replies going over the same things and being told the same things.

No it's the AP role that behaves differently not the players around him.

This thread is pretty close to being closed now. It's apparent you don't really want the help and its becoming boring now actually trying to help you. You've had more than enough information to fix your issues.

[thejay]

Yes but why? You'll still have two players in the same space doing the same thing, albeit one of them wont be a playmaker but that means very little. It's pointless trying to change the role to exactly the same one, even though it wont be classed as a playmaker it doesn't go anywhere near fixing your actual issue. You want a player doing something different to what the F9 does, not a player that is imitating him.

Why ? you said the main issue with the if and false 9 behaviour is the fact that the ap has the role of the false nine, which in turn makes the false9 not really come deep to search for the ball which would open up the space for the ifs?

Wouldn't that be solved when assigning him a cm role? I dont want my central midfielder to constantly run into the box, only occasionale, he should be more involved in facilitating passing combinations higher up the pitch than the dlp with the occasional through ball or dribble to create space.

[Cleon]

Why ? you said the main issue with the if and false 9 behaviour is the fact that the ap has the role of the false nine, which in turn makes the false9 not really come deep to search for the ball which would open up the space for the ifs?

I said they're doing similar things in a similar kind of area.

Wouldn't that be solved when assigning him a cm role? I dont want my central midfielder to constantly run into the box, only occasionale, he should be more involved in facilitating passing combinations higher up the pitch than the dlp with the occasional through ball or dribble to create space.

Then change your striker. Or use a different role for the midfielder. You have plenty of choices. Or stay the same as you are now and face the same issues. You was asking if you could shape the CM to be the AP support via PI's, which I responded to. But yet again you twist what you was asking to mean something else.

[thejay]

Would have been simpler if you posted your full set up and instructions when asked in post 3 rather than waiting 64 replies to do so. Then spending the other 74 replies going over the same things and being told the same things.

No it's the AP role that behaves differently not the players around him.

This thread is pretty close to being closed now. It's apparent you don't really want the help and its becoming boring now actually trying to help you. You've had more than enough information to fix your issues.

Why do you want to close the thread ? I am of course interested in help and will try the different solutions suggested in this thread and by you.

I don't really understand what gives you the impression that I don't really want help? I am just interested in understanding why and how something is working or not . Isnt this forum the place for discussing such things?

I enjoyed this thread and the different ideas that came up.

[thejay]

Then change your striker. Or use a different role for the midfielder. You have plenty of choices. Or stay the same as you are now and face the same issues. You was asking if you could shape the CM to be the AP support via PI's, which I responded to. But yet again you twist what you was asking to mean something else.

I am not twisting something, I just wanted to know if using a cm with personal instructions would make him behave exactly like an ap without the other players actively searching him. You answered that, so I know. I don't really see the problem with my question.

[thejay]

Am I allowed to continue this discussion here and post the results from the things I have tried and how it changed the behavior of the players without the thread being closed ?

[andrewsgn]

Why ? you said the main issue with the if and false 9 behaviour is the fact that the ap has the role of the false nine, which in turn makes the false9 not really come deep to search for the ball which would open up the space for the ifs?

Wouldn't that be solved when assigning him a cm role? I dont want my central midfielder to constantly run into the box, only occasionale, he should be more involved in facilitating passing combinations higher up the pitch than the dlp with the occasional through ball or dribble to create space.

The issue with the False 9/IF behavior isn't necessarily that the False 9 and AP are doing the same playmaker duties. It's that neither the False 9 or CM's are doing anything to occupy the defenders which leaves the IF's easily marked. What Cleon and others are saying is you need a central player (either striker or CM) higher up to disrupt the defenders and open up space for the IF's. That's why simply changing the AP to a CM(S) with PI's to make him act like a playmaker doesn't solve the issue.

[thejay]

I now have played a new match where I tried suggestions from this thread.

Here is the pkm for anyone who is interested http://www54.zippyshare.com/v/4zj9JRW7/file.html

I basically used the same setup as before with various small adjustments during the match like width, roaming or no roaming , retain possession or no.

The main thing I changed is use only 1 playmaker , a dlp with a cm s with ti run forward.

So this are the instructions :

Now I noticed by only playing one playmaker, the false nine tends to work bit better and come deeper searching for the ball , also the wingers do not come narrow so soon, or so it seems, other matches suggested that this is not really the case.

Still there were various instances with questionable decisions from my central midfielders

At min 20:03

The positioning is very good and a clear numerical advantage in midfield. The obvious pass would be again to the free central midfielder which could result in a promising interchange with the false nine or the if who could make a run.

Instead this happened, this player has no switch to flanks ppm

At min 22:21, Coric as false nine with almost the classic false 9 position, the if on the shoulder of the defender waiting for the through ball

Again this happened, the player also does not have this ppm

Those two are the clearest instances.

Then I have another problem , I use a half back to help build from the back because most of the teams I play against press the two centre backs, so the half back drops in between to help.

Now I noticed sometimes that the half back is too deep in midfield when in possession when he should be higher to help circulate the ball.

The only other role I found that also drops between the center backs but moves up higher is dlp on defense duty. When using the dm as such I do have the impression he does not defend as effectively or close down soon enough.

Is there any other way I can achieve both those things? Dropping deep but not staying as deep during possession?

[chrisw]

In your first example, look at that free central midfielder's body language. He's running back towards his position (I assume he's the DLP from what I see of his position) and isn't actually ready to receive the ball. If he does have the ball played to him, it would need very good agility and balance to receive it and then keep it.

In your second example, I think this is down to the TIs you're still using. You want more through balls, but still you stick with Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence AND Lower Tempo. All of these will reduce your passing distance and limit the number of through balls you're playing to your forwards. Coupled with a Structured Team Shape which reduces creative freedom and increases the gaps between your players, and the system makes less sense.

Your full-backs are still set to get forward often because of their role and duty, perhaps if they weren't getting forward so often, your players would stop seeing them as such an obvious target?

My suggestions:

-Remove Retain Possession OR Shorter Passing (One or the other, not both) to encourage your players to attempt more through balls.

-Consider a switch to a Flexible/Fluid/Very Fluid Team Shape

-Consider reducing the forward movement of your full-backs by using a Support duty on them instead of Attack.

I'm afraid I haven't much used a HB at all since FM14 so I'm not sure about that issue.

[thejay]

I played around with retain possession and a more flexible shape during this match to see the effects, but the key issue is again how the wide players , ifs move.

I picked the examples from the pictures because that's when their movement was actually right.

I have tried things suggested in this thread like removing a playmaker and playing a bbm or cma instead but that does not solve the issue with wide players moving extremely narrow very early, leaving no obvious passing options.

[chrisw]

I played around with retain possession and a more flexible shape during this match to see the effects, but the key issue is again how the wide players , ifs move.

I picked the examples from the pictures because that's when their movement was actually right..

Eh? You've picked the moments when the movement was right, but then complained that the pass was wrong. I've suggested 3 methods of improving the pass decision. Go back and try one of those 3 changes and see what happens. Rather than just unhelpfully countering every time someone tries to help you.

I have tried things suggested in this thread like removing a playmaker and playing a bbm or cma instead but that does not solve the issue with wide players moving extremely narrow very early, leaving no obvious passing options.

I think in the second example you have an example of when the IFs movement is correct. Just Coric doesn't play the pass you want. And I think he doesn't play the pass you want because of the reasons I explained earlier.

[thejay]

Removing retain possession does make the players try for forward passes, it does not really solve the issues with the ifs coming narrow so soon.

The second movement is correct, in the pass could be solved by increasing directness ,removing retain possession, the problem is these are the only 2 instances where their movement was correct during the game, most of the time they tend to move narrow immediately, leaving only the fullback open.

[herne79]

I've had a look at that latest pkm you uploaded.

In my opinion your issue has got nothing to do with poor movement from IFs, F9s or dodgey pass choices by your midfielders.

Your issue is tempo.

You have reduced the tempo in your team by so much your players are dwelling overly long on the ball - so whilst your IFs (for example) are looking to make the run in behind, your player with the ball dwells on it for so long the opportunity is lost.

Your 2 examples you posted above in post #145 are prime examples.

Your first:- Minute 20:03; Samper has passed to Bentancur who has his back to goal. Rather than making an instant pass to the "free" Eggestein (that you say should happen), Bentancur controls the ball and dwells on it. In the time that takes, Eggestein has run back towards his own goal slightly and so is close to an opponent. The pass opportunity is lost and Bentancur passes out wide. Tempo killed that move.

Your second:- Minute 22:21; Coric has received the ball in acres of space. Zivkovic has started a great looking run inside and behind the defence. But Coric just dwells on the ball. He dwells for so long that Zivkovic is practically run offside (lets be generous and call him "in line"). Because it's now a dodgey looking pass due to a possible offside, Coric passes out wide. Tempo killed that move as well.

Whilst a Control mentality comes with a pretty high tempo set by default, you have removed just about all of it with your TIs and player duty selection. You have no urgency in attack, so the opportunity for the potentially great passes you seem to want is lost.

Now all of that is while you are in possession. Unfortunately you also have defensive issues, which are caused almost entirely by your incredibly high defensive line. You scored first in that match you uploaded, but quite frankly you should have been 2 or 3 nil down by that stage.

Why? Because you are getting hammered by balls over the top and in behind your defence. Just in the first 10 minutes this happened several times. Playing the offside trap will rarely save you.