Can the tactic masters please explain this to me?

[thejay]

Now, my team is instructed to play short passing possession style football, not that this really matters in this instant

Here we have picture one:

I play 433 with a dm in midfield 2 wingers on inside forward and a false 9

As you can see the central midfielders created a nice numerical advantage on the left side opening space in the middle, Samper, central midfielder on the ball , false 9 withdraws opening space for diagonal runs from both inside forwards.

Samper here has 2 very good options, a direct through pass to the left inside forward, most likely creating an easy one on one with the keeper, or a simple pass to the false 9, which will draw the center back out ,opening up even more space for the inside forwards to run into.

Now can you guess what Samper is going to do?

Of course!! To the fullback on the other side of the field, the favourite player of all central midfielders, what a genius decisions.

This is in no way an isolated instance, this happens all the time, all the time and drives me absolutely mad. Promising attacking situations are destroyed by ridiculous decisions like that.

I feel like the game forces me to play to the wings and cross it in, and if I don't want to do this and play wide forwards, the fullbacks becomes a magnetic target for the ball in order to cross it in, no matter in what situation or how promising the attack develops.

Things like this make the game a pain and depressing .

[Keyzer Soze]

Does Samper have PI's to make more risky passes? Or your team play with the "pass into space" instruction?

Because from the image, it seems that both F9 and IF are marked by the defence, so for him to make a pass to them, would be a risky pass.

This could be the reason why he decided to make a safer pass to the fullback.

[HUNT3R]

Post the complete setup, including PIs and PPMs of Samper. Without this, it's going to be difficult telling you anything.

[thejay]

How is this a safer pass? A cross pass to the opposite fullback, which got intercepted by the way.

He is on deep lying playmaker duty so should try through balls more often , more importantly the simplest pass is right in front of him.

Its a completely illogical pass regardless of instructions.

[HUNT3R]

He is on deep lying playmaker duty so should try through balls more often , more importantly the simplest pass is right in front of him.

A DLP has risky passes on mixed by default, not often.

[thejay]

A DLP has risky passes on mixed by default, not often.

Still regardless of instructions he has 17 decision making an 16 vision and composure , why would he ever play a pass like that when much better options are right in front of him.

This tendency to spread the ball wide and ignoring options right in front happens with every player , not just this one particular.

[Keyzer Soze]

How is this a safer pass? A cross pass to the opposite fullback, which got intercepted by the way.

He is on deep lying playmaker duty so should try through balls more often , more importantly the simplest pass is right in front of him.

Its a completely illogical pass regardless of instructions.

Could you please post yours Team Instructions and Mentality?

[HUNT3R]

Still regardless of instructions he has 17 decision making an 16 vision and composure , why would he ever play a pass like that when much better options are right in front of him.

This tendency to spread the ball wide and ignoring options right in front happens with every player , not just this one particular.

You posted something that was incorrect and I corrected it. I also asked that you post the complete setup since you asked for answers and with that we can see if there is an answer for you.

[Cleon]

Still regardless of instructions he has 17 decision making an 16 vision and composure , why would he ever play a pass like that when much better options are right in front of him.

This tendency to spread the ball wide and ignoring options right in front happens with every player , not just this one particular.

Which is why all the other details are important because it helps up understand the set up used. As this issue is nearly always down to something tactical or attribute related. You've asked for it to be explained, so please provide the correct information or the thread is pointless.

[Cleon]

Samper has the likes to switch the ball to opposite flank PPM, so using him as the example is kind of obsolete. He also has low bravery so how the player approaches Samper could be vital too in this instance. Although it looks more like it's the PPM.............

[Keyzer Soze]

Samper has the likes to switch the ball to opposite flank PPM, so using him as the example is kind of obsolete.

On the subject about that PPM.

I always train my DM to have that PPM, because i think it helps alot to recicle the possession, but never train playmakers to have that ppm (always go with the try more killer balls).

Do you think that its a good decision?

[Cleon]

On the subject about that PPM.

I always train my DM to have that PPM, because i think it helps alot to recicle the possession, but never train playmakers to have that ppm (always go with the try more killer balls).

Do you think that its a good decision?

I use it on people who dictate the tempo of the game because a switch to a different flank can open the whole game up. I like to couple it with that PPM.

[thejay]

Samper has the likes to switch the ball to opposite flank PPM, so using him as the example is kind of obsolete. He also has low bravery so how the player approaches Samper could be vital too in this instance. Although it looks more like it's the PPM.............

Why ? because he has the tendency to switch to the flanks he always does it regardless of options in front of him? Isnt this were decision making and comes in?

What kind of instructions do you want? mentality is control and shape is structured with roaming and retain possession.

[HUNT3R]

What kind of instructions do you want? mentality is control and shape is structured with roaming and retain possession.

We needed everything (post 3?) but that is already a huge indicator. A DLP (as I said) has risky passes on Mixed/Sometimes. You've now reduced risky passes more with Retain Possession, so he's looking to purely pass to feet instead of into space. Couple that with the PPM and you can see why he did what he did.

[Keyzer Soze]

But for example, you see any problem having a player with Defensive Midfield role having the the dictate tempo ppm?

or you think that ppm should only be learn by playmaker?

What kind of instructions do you want? mentality is control and shape is structured with roaming and retain possession.

That could be the cause of your problem.

[Cleon]

Why ? because he has the tendency to switch to the flanks he always does it regardless of options in front of him? Isnt this were decision making and comes in?

What kind of instructions do you want? mentality is control and shape is structured with roaming and retain possession.

Well he won't do it all time though, even though you say he is, he won't, it's impossible. Upload a game where all he does is this and nothing else. You upload the PKM to a hosting site and then provide the link in here.

If you want him to provide killer balls then lose the retain shout or give him a more suitable role that allows it often, rather than a semi reserved role that is allowing him to use his PPM too much. The issue is a bad role mixed with weird PPM's for what you are actually wanting the player to do.

[thejay]

On the subject about that PPM.

I always train my DM to have that PPM, because i think it helps alot to recicle the possession, but never train playmakers to have that ppm (always go with the try more killer balls).

Do you think that its a good decision?

Its a useful ppm to have as it helps keep possession and switch play to the other side, vital when overloading one side, but regardless of this ppm, why would he ever make that decision in this instance?

Alonso has the same tendency in real life, would he make the same decision in this instance, I highly doubt it.

[thejay]

We needed everything (post 3?) but that is already a huge indicator. A DLP (as I said) has risky passes on Mixed/Sometimes. You've now reduced risky passes more with Retain Possession, so he's looking to purely pass to feet instead of into space. Couple that with the PPM and you can see why he did what he did.

Well the most obvious pass is the pass into the feet of the false 9.

[Cleon]

Well the most obvious pass is the pass into the feet of the false 9.

With a role that instructs otherwise and a PPM that doesn't help the situation it doesn't though...................

[thejay]

But for example, you see any problem having a player with Defensive Midfield role having the the dictate tempo ppm?

or you think that ppm should only be learn by playmaker?

That could be the cause of your problem.

Without retain possession its nearly impossible to make a controlled build up from the back, nearly every pass goes forward.

[HUNT3R]

Well the most obvious pass is the pass into the feet of the false 9.

And as I said, he's going with an option he prefers. You asked "why would he ever make this decision?" and there is your answer.

[thejay]

With a role that instructs otherwise and a PPM that doesn't help the situation it doesn't though...................

The role instructs otherwise? why? it isnt a through ball.

The ppm is a tendency , not a fixed rule to always to it, especially with much better options right in front.

[Cleon]

Without retain possession its nearly impossible to make a controlled build up from the back, nearly every pass goes forward.

No it's not. The issue is you just don't understand your system that's all. Spend time learning how and why it works including all the bad points and you'll soon realise what is stopping you from making a controlled build up from the back. But it is very much possible to play a controlled build up from the back. Howeever the mentality you use is more focused on rushing play. Again it's you wanting something different to how you've actually set-up.

[Cleon]

The role instructs otherwise? why? it isnt a through ball.

The ppm is a tendency , not a fixed rule to always to it, especially with much better options right in front.

Are you going to make a crap excuse for everything that is posted? Or do you REALLY want the answers I'm trying to help you with here? Seems like you don't really want answers at all. And yes it was a through ball because the player would be running onto the ball if he played it to the one on the left you wanted him to.

[thejay]

No it's not. The issue is you just don't understand your system that's all. Spend time learning how and why it works including all the bad points and you'll soon realise what is stopping you from making a controlled build up from the back. But it is very much possible to play a controlled build up from the back. Howeever the mentality you use is more focused on rushing play. Again it's you wanting something different to how you've actually set-up.

I know I could lower mentality and a mentality that is named control is focused on rushing? ok

Lower mentality does also mean lower defensive line, does it not? I do want to play a high defensive line though in order to press effectively.

Also lower mentality does also mean players are less likely to choose an attacking option, which I do not want for the forwards.

[Keyzer Soze]

Without retain possession its nearly impossible to make a controlled build up from the back, nearly every pass goes forward.

that's not true.

You can achieve that by reducing your tempo and passing directness for example, or using the instruction to play from defense.

i never like to much using the retain possession and work ball into box instruction. Always get the feeling that limits too much the play. When using them, it seems the team always play the same way.

[Cleon]

I know I could lower mentality and a mentality that is named control is focused on rushing? ok

It's the next one down from attacking. Yes it has high d-line, fast tempo etc. It's basically a full on attacking mentality.

Lower mentality does also mean lower defensive line, does it not? I do want to play a high defensive line though in order to press effectively.

You can use a TI to push it up further if you wish to. So not sure what point you're trying to make here?

Also lower mentality does also mean players are less likely to choose an attacking option, which I do not want for the forwards.

This is a load of codswallop. It doesn't mean that at all.

[thejay]

Are you going to make a crap excuse for everything that is posted? Or do you REALLY want the answers I'm trying to help you with here? Seems like you don't really want answers at all. And yes it was a through ball because the player would be running onto the ball if he played it to the one on the left you wanted him to.

I do not make crap excuses , what kind of way of talking is that actually? I you would have read my first post carefully I said he had two options, one through ball and one simple pass to the feet of the false nine.

If the trough ball is impossible apparently due to his tendencies and my instructions , what makes the simple pass forward impossible?

[herne79]

I'd also like to know some additional context here, especially in relation to what the other players on both teams are actually doing.

For example, the text at the bottom of the screen seems to indicate Samper has just collected the ball following a headed clearance. If so, what are the defence and attackers up to? Is your screen shot taken when Samper has just collected the ball? What are others doing at that particular point in time?

Or perhaps Samper has just received the ball from a team mate? If so, again what are others up to?

On the face of it from your screen shot I can see how it may seem Samper could play a through ball for the inside forward to latch onto, but without context and knowing what everyone else is up to, it's impossible to say. You may be better off uploading a pkm of the match as it is very difficult to demonstrate movement in a still picture.

Oh and it would be better if you didn't say that this happens "all" of the time. If it did, you wouldn't score (except from set pieces). I know it can be frustrating, but try to keep things on an even keel .

[thejay]

It's the next one down from attacking. Yes it has high d-line, fast tempo etc. It's basically a full on attacking mentality.

Then its time for si to change the descriptions , because that's not what it says at all.

You can use a TI to push it up further if you wish to. So not sure what point you're trying to make here?

Its already pushed to the max, I cannot push it higher

This is a load of codswallop. It doesn't mean that at all.

Then what does it mean? Just positioning on the field? risk taking?

[thejay]

I'd also like to know some additional context here, especially in relation to what the other players on both teams are actually doing.

For example, the text at the bottom of the screen seems to indicate Samper has just collected the ball following a headed clearance. If so, what are the defence and attackers up to? Is your screen shot taken when Samper has just collected the ball? What are others doing at that particular point in time?

Or perhaps Samper has just received the ball from a team mate? If so, again what are others up to?

On the face of it from your screen shot I can see how it may seem Samper could play a through ball for the inside forward to latch onto, but without context and knowing what everyone else is up to, it's impossible to say. You may be better off uploading a pkm of the match as it is very difficult to demonstrate movement in a still picture.

Oh and it would be better if you didn't say that this happens "all" of the time. If it did, you wouldn't score (except from set pieces). I know it can be frustrating, but try to keep things on an even keel .

The text on the screen is just from the replay, the space was created with some nice interplay from the central midfielders.

The interception happened afterwards and I rewinded when I made the screenshot.

[Cleon]

I do not make crap excuses , what kind of way of talking is that actually? I you would have read my first post carefully I said he had two options, one through ball and one simple pass to the feet of the false nine.

If the trough ball is impossible apparently due to his tendencies and my instructions , what makes the simple pass forward impossible?

Are you going to upload the game and I'll tell you exactly why he didn't make the pass. It's also not a simple pass like you keep saying, it would be a through ball and there's a big chunk of information you still haven't provided yet and the screenshots have important seconds missing from them. Please upload the PKM of the game........

[HUNT3R]

And is Retain Possession the only TI? Otherwise post the rest.

[Cleon]

Its already pushed to the max, I cannot push it higher

No you said;

Lower mentality does also mean lower defensive line, does it not? I do want to play a high defensive line though in order to press effectively.

My answer was telling you to use a TI to push it further forward if you used a lower mentality.

Then what does it mean? Just positioning on the field? risk taking?

Less rushed, less risk taking maybe. It all depends on the roles, duties and PI's you use still. But the mentality sets the base to the roles and duties you have used. Just because something is lower in mentality doesn't mean it's less attacking, less effective etc. The chances are it can make you more attacking and more of a threat as you are less wasteful.

[thejay]

Are you going to upload the game and I'll tell you exactly why he didn't make the pass. It's also not a simple pass like you keep saying, it would be a through ball and there's a big chunk of information you still haven't provided yet and the screenshots have important seconds missing from them. Please upload the PKM of the game........

I cannot upload this particular game because the game crashed after I took the screenshots.

It may sound like an excuse, but why would I do that?

I sure can upload another game because this particular thing happens often,

Do you want me to point out the instances when it happens?

[thejay]

No you said;

My answer was telling you to use a TI to push it further forward if you used a lower mentality.

My defensive line is already pushed to the max, so control or standard mentality makes standard lower does it not, when both ti have the highest line.

[Cleon]

I cannot upload this particular game because the game crashed after I took the screenshots.

It may sound like an excuse, but why would I do that?

I sure can upload another game because this particular thing happens often,

Do you want me to point out the instances when it happens?

Yups please, one where this happens lots and tell me the exact time. In future though it's probably worth using examples you can still support though..........

My defensive line is already pushed to the max, so control or standard mentality makes standard lower does it not, when both ti have the highest line.

Eh? If you went standard then the defensive line would be lowered but you can still push it forward with a TI which is the point I was making. You said you wanted to play a high line, I was just stating that you can still play a higher line than normal regardless of what mentality you use. Each mentality structure comes with a different preset defensive line etc. So if you lowered your mentality then the d-line would be lower but you can offset that again and pusher it higher with the use of a TI. It doesn't matter how you play on control as we was on about lowering mentality.

[thejay]

Yups please, one where this happens lots and tell me the exact time. In future though it's probably worth using examples you can still support though..........

Cannot support? do you think I doctored the screenshot?

Eh? If you went standard then the defensive line would be lowered but you can still push it forward with a TI which is the point I was making. You said you wanted to play a high line, I was just stating that you can still play a higher line than normal regardless of what mentality you use. Each mentality structure comes with a different preset defensive line etc. So if you lowered your mentality then the d-line would be lower but you can offset that again and pusher it higher with the use of a TI. It doesn't matter how you play on control as we was on about lowering mentality

I know that I can push it higher, but the absolute will not be the same because mentality also changes the defensive line, does it not?

So higher in standard mentality is not the same height as higher in control mentally? Its also graphically represented in the TIs like that.

[HUNT3R]

Cannot support? do you think I doctored the screenshot?

He means that you cannot post anything else from that game or the PKM because right now, it doesn't exist. If we asked for what happens 2 seconds before that, you can't show us.

Post a new PKM. As you say, it happens all the time, so that wouldn't be a problem.

[Cleon]

Cannot support? do you think I doctored the screenshot?

You can't support the questions now being asked, is what I meant, you know full well. When saying things and saying certain things are happening on the game, screenshots aren't enough in most cases hence why I asked for a PKM of the game. Which you've said you can't provide. That was my point as it's relevant to what you're talking about in here. It's not about you doctoring the screenshots..............but you'd be suprised at how many threads we see in a year where the user can't provide anything other than a screenshot. Now screenshots don't really tell you anything, they can look like something has happened a certain way but it might not have because what happened before, the players positions, the closing down of players etc is all more important than one screenshot which doesn't capture any of this. My point is, screenshots and the angles they are taken from are in 99% of cases misleading initially. It's why the full move would have pin pointed the exact issue.

Anyways I'm trying to help you here, so will you please upload another PKM or not?

I know that I can push it higher, but the absolute will not be the same because mentality also changes the defensive line, does it not?

So higher in standard mentality is not the same height as higher in control mentally? Its also graphically represented in the TIs like that.

Yes but you don't have to be absolute, you have to make sure everything works in tandem. And currently your system doesn't work or do the things you've set up to do. So rather than being stubborn and seeing the same things happen time after time (which is what you've claimed) maybe its time to start thinking about different ways rather than the same ways that currently frustrate you and fail to do what you want? It's not suddenly going to change or click without you doing something different to the normal.

[Cleon]

He means that you cannot post anything else from that game or the PKM because right now, it doesn't exist. If we asked for what happens 2 seconds before that, you can show us.

Post a new PKM. As you say, it happens all the time, so that wouldn't be a problem.

Exactly! And its those 2 seconds which have all the answers and paint the full picture.

[thejay]

Ok

Here is one match, probably not the best example because the opponent was only concerned with denying space and playing extremely compact.

http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/zkaQ2AuU/file.html

in min 02:15

mf rather chooses to pass to the offside fullback instead to the if

04:29

The same, the offside fullback in the offside position is prefered.

I will provide other better examples.

[Cleon]

I'm on my laptop atm so can' do a fancy screenshot but I will when I get home later. On 2.15 mins your IF drifts too inward and doesn't look to make any kind of forward movement, he only moves across face of goal rather than diagonal or forward.

He's not really clear for the pass when it comes to the time the ball is released, it could be a risky pass if he released to him. There might actually be a case of him passing the ball to him earlier here but I think the role and possible TI's used are the reason here. The player had time to release the ball early but he dwelled on it. Be interesting to hear your instructions for this one.

The second one at 4.29 is actually a great bit of play and was a good move, albeit it unlucky with the offside in the end. He got in behind the opposition and was free in space. The others players though didn't make much movement.

I've watched large parts of this match and movement is definitely an issue. You want the IF's to be used more and hit early but they aren't making intelligent movement. It's like they're too high and aggressive in build up play and this is making it hard for the players who feed them the ball. The above screenshot shows this, look at the opposition players and see how easy you are to mark. They have free players at the back who are roaming and not got anyone to pick up. Now look at your players, none of them are moving or looking to get in behind the opposition other than the fullback. The three most advanced players you have are marked and the one on the opposite side isn't really an option. And the most central player is moving away from goal when in fact, you want someone to be moving forward at this point.

Everything is rather disjointed in your attacks.

[thejay]

The first role is simple deep lying playmaker with no special instructions.

Tis are retain possession, play out of defense , high closing down , highest line, control mentality , play offside, shorter passing , play wider, normal or low tempo and roaming.

I only use roaming because I read your post on possession football and you said that it helps the players to move and find space.

I also change those instructions around a lot, its not like I try the same thing 100 times and wait for a different outcome.

In the second screenshot I had some slightly different instructions I think.

like I said its not the best example and you are right, I have a big issue how the ifs move.

They either get sucked inside incredible narrow and are not involved in the build up like in the first screenshot or do not make the right runs, they are ifs on support with no special instructions.

If you have any idea why this is the case, please share it.

I have tried lot of of possible instructions and roles for the wide player without success. The fullback pass issue is definitely related to the if not making runs or getting drawn in too narrow.

I picked the first screenshots in the initial post as an example because there this is actually not the case and the midfielder has a lot of options an still chooses the fullback.

It was actually one of the only times I was really satisfied with the movement and positioning of the wide players and the cm still ****ed it up, that's why I was especially emotional at this moment.

But the most severe issue I have is with the positioning and movement of the wide players.

[rninejr]

this "phenomenon" is actually a common thing for those who've been tinkering with possession playstyle. I've seen this countless time before finally found out how to solve it. Because of the nature of his position, a fullback is hardly noticed, so naturally it is not rare to see a fullback being unmarked. That is a fullback's selling point. So when u gave so many possession-oriented instructions, either TIs or PIs, your player will naturally pass the ball to someone unmarked to retain possession. I personally think nothing's wrong with the game.

---

Rather than, blaming samper (he is a good player i feel sorry for him ) it's better to rewatching your previous matches, the ones have that phenomenon occured. Think again, feel how each mentality setting n each instructions change your tactic as a whole.

I just started a new save using Bournemouth like 2 days ago since accidentaly discovered how to play a possession style with 4-4-2 formation at my previous save. Clearly having someone like samper will be a great bless to me

My Fullbacks are Simon Francis and Charlie Daniels (subtituted by Adam Smith). From this prozone match analysis we can clearly see that Francs, Daniels, n Smith received many passes at wide area. Now compare that with this:

from 3 Fullbacks, only Francis sent 3 successful crosses (1 became an assist) n 8 failed crosses. Both Daniels n Smith sent no crosses at all despite how many times they received the ball at wide area. So only 1 CCC out of 7 CCCs came from crossing. The rest were coming from central area, either by through passes or simple short passes.

Im using a very fluid system, in a 4-4-2, with bournemouth candidate. I dont care, i only care what happens on the pitch. It might be stupid at the tactical screen but If it works, then it aint stupid.

True that a player's quality can make differences. But still, it's come back to u as the manager. Try something new. This 4-4-2 too is my recent discovery, my personal discovery since it was purely an accident because i was trying to play a counter attacking football but again ended up with a possession football

[thejay]

I think is a problem with playing possession style with inside forwards, I totally do not want to play 442, I want to play a formation with as many lines possible and have numerical advantage in the center.

[rninejr]

nope, i have no problem with my fullbacks even in a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-3 DM Wide to be exact) formation. It's just, i got bored using that formation for years.

and U got tons of instructions on your team. A very High Defensive line in a Control mentality setting. No wonder your players tends to pass the ball to him. Bet u're using either fluid or very fluid too? anyway. your problem is how high u ask your team to play. Try to make some distance from back to front using a more structured mentality can possibly help if u're insist on using a the highest defensive line n control mentality

[HUNT3R]

I think is a problem with playing possession style with inside forwards, I totally do not want to play 442, I want to play a formation with as many lines possible and have numerical advantage in the center.

It's completely possible, but both your wide players are almost permanently unavailable to receive passes, so it's not much of a possession setup. It looks like they're both on Attack duties, which doesn't make sense if you're trying to keep possession. You're already reducing options with your TIs and you're reducing it more with the IFs the way they are.

[thejay]

It's completely possible, but both your wide players are almost permanently unavailable to receive passes, so it's not much of a possession setup. It looks like they're both on Attack duties, which doesn't make sense if you're trying to keep possession. You're already reducing options with your TIs and you're reducing it more with the IFs the way they are.

No they are not , they are on support with no additional instructions, I know that the wide players are the problem, just not how to fix this.

[HUNT3R]

They seem very keen to get forward. I'm surprised that you haven't made changes to improve the situation.