Another "Help me, I am rubbish" thread :D

[Marabak]

Hi guys

I have a save with Southampton, currently starting the second season and I am not doing very well. First season I started quite poorly, managed to have a 9 game run without a win (albeit 6 draws) followed by a separate run of 5 defeats in 6 games, turned it around with a 6 game unbeaten streak (5W and a draw with Man City) but still only managed to finished poorly in 14th with W12:D12:L14 and a GD of 57:53. A good run to the group stage of Europa League (and not going through due to losing the last game of the group) saved my season somewhat however but overall a poor performance. Partly due to the size and stature of the club but also partly because of some big fees from big clubs, I have lost some of the bigger players (Mane, Pelle, Van Dijk) but I feel I have some reasonable replacements.

Towards the end of the season I settled on my current formation is effectively a 433 (see below) and stuck with it. Instructions are just high line (my defenders are reasonably pacey) and get stuck in. Occasionally I will switch to a 3412 formation, especially is the over team are playing with two strikers or I want to play two strikers myself. This isn't very often though so I won't discuss it here.

Initally, I have wingbacks on both sides, with IF on both wings. However, this left my open quite a bit at the back and quite congested up front, so I switch the RB to a fullback and the RW to a winger to try and stay a bit wider whilst having some support at the back with the FB. The midfield aren't too adventurous, I prefer to have them remain a little bit solid, especially as there are PPMs for players to get forward anyway so I don't want to encourage them even further. Because the are a little more secure, I don't expect my front three to do a huge amount in defensive terms.

My team is currently something like

GK: Jefferson, Forster : both decent keepers stat wise but Jefferson is first choice

CD: Paulista/Caulker/Subotic : Paulista and Caulker are first choice, despite Caulkers "dwells on ball" as Subotic is quite slow for a high line.

LB: Bertand/Targett : Bertand is a good all round wingback, Targett is a decent youthful backup

RB: Flanagan/Adriano : Cedric was hard to replace from last year (7.26 from 28 Prem Games) but Man City convinced him to join for £22m. As my LB goes forward at will, I wanted someone more defensive on the right, and Flanagan was free, English and has pretty good stats. Adriano has been with my since last season, where he didn't do brilliantly (6.87 from 26 Prem games) but he was shufted around a bit and played on the left quite a lot. Age is starting to reduce his stamina though.

BWM/CM(D): Fellaini/Ledley : Fellaini has amazing stats as a BWM in the Midfield strata, barring his acceleration. Good header of the ball as well but he does has PPM "gets into opposition area" which might reduce his effectiveness at holding his position. Ledley is backup here with pretty good stats, and also pretty capable at playing as a BBM. Also "gets into opposition area" as well unfortunately, as well as "stops play". Not ideal but can live with it. Wanyama can also play here.

BBM: Wanyama/Davis : I had Lucas Romero at this position last year, but money talks and he walked. Wanyama is good stats wise though, and Davis is reckoned to by my best BBM according to the Squad Depth - Roles Overview, despite lacking strength.

AP(S):Clasie/Davis/Tom Carroll : Clasie has good stats for this role and did well last year (despite his natural role being a little deeper). Davis is a good replacement as well. Tom Carroll was free, English and a capable backup.

IF(L): Tadic/Juanmi/Rodriguez : Tadic is amazing attributes wise, although could do with a little more composure considering he has the PPM "places shots". He does seem to be a little unreliable and inconsistent though. Juanmi was sent out on loan last season but has decent attributes. Rodriguez is currently suffering from the "Phil Neville-effect" from being too versatile for his own good so he is shifted around quite a bit. Good attributes for both IF and up front, but poor crossing.

W®: Lucas Mouri/Zivkovic : Mouri was an expensive acquisition to cover the loss of Mane (who spent large parts of last season injured anyhow). Not tearing up any trees yet, but has good all round attributes. Does have PPM "cuts inside" which isn't ideal for a winger though. Not much to say about Zivkovic, he is well known on these boards. His attributes have come on a treat since last season, and he is pushing Mouri for a first team spot.

F9: Calleri/Adrian Ramos : Calleri is good across the board, but I've seen a lot of people playing him as an F9 and getting good results (he has PPM "comes deep to get ball" so might as well use it by design). He seems to score less for me like this, but has been praised a lot for his assist record last season (11G, 14A in 36Games). Ramos is better in the air and plays with back to goal, so when he plays I might switch to an DLF. Was originally signed as a cheap replacement for Pelle and is currently out for another month or so with a torn hamstring.

plus a smattering of youth players.

My team comparison stats compared to the league, pretty standard but could do with some small improvements.

I've played 5 league games so far, and only have a 1:0 win against Norwich to show for it. Even that was a poor game that I felt could have swung away from us. As you can see, preseason went ok (albeit lower rep teams but some good draws against decent teams at the beginning). In total, 3 goals scored and 7 conceded.

I feel like most of the goals I score (at least my brain has picked up on a pattern) from a cross my defenders stand and look at whilst an opposing striker or opposite winger runs right past them to volley it in. The assist locations seem to back this up, although because they seem to volley it rather than head it, I think it is counted as a "placed shot". I'm not entirely sure how to counteract this, as if I put my FBs on Defend (say once I am 1:0 up), it still doesn't stop the cross coming in and my defenders don't seem capable of clearing. I'd say the majority of goals I've conceded have come this way or via corners, but that might be my own confirmational bias and short of going back through each match I'm not sure how else to confirm this.

I thought about playing my LB more conservatively, but this would reduce my impetus going forward (and at 0.5 goals a game, that isn't quite required). Last season, I managed to score in 31/38 games, albeit conceded in 32 of them.

Anyone got any insight in how I can improve or how they would approach things?

Thank you.

[Bitner]

Good Morning!

1st of all, i'd consider using a Sweeper Keeper (even on an Attacking mentality)< as vou play a high defensive line, there will be amassive gap between the defenders and the box, so i'd think about having the Goalkeeper occupying this space.

2nd, i personally don't like an BWM as the defensive Midfielder, as he hassles opponents, instead of sitting and protecting you backline, but that's my opinion.

3rd, certainly i'd not use the LB as an WB-A, i'd went for a FB-S, because i'm not into fullbacks and Wingers attacking at the same side, but if you REALLY want hi to attack, i'd stuck to a FB-A, or if you think it's primordial to use him as a wingback, i'd rather see him supporting. If you REALLY wants a WB-A, then Tadic should be on a support role.

ANd if you revert tadic to a Support role, probably Calleri should see his role changed aswell (Maybe to a CF-S or a DLF-A?)

Hope i helped with some insights i had whilist looking at your tactics.

Cheers,

Bitner

[Joe.]

Essentially I'd mirror what Bitner has said.

The defensive central midfielder should be holding position/dropping back. BWM is liable to closing down the opponent, which in turn creates a gap.. Something as simple as CM-D should do the trick, and check out the individual instructions to ensure he stays put. I think with the amount of available roles we have to pick from, it's very easy to ignore the most simple ones as they seem less exciting.

One thing I've done recently which I hadn't considered before was instructing my central defenders to close down less. I need them to defend my penalty area as much as they can, so I certainly don't want them rushing out of the box for a slide tackle (Get Stuck In) leaving the box wide open.

As for the fullbacks, it's all very attacking. If you want your full backs to assist with goals, that's fine - but ensure that the midfielder on the same side isn't also attacking, or at least there's a midfielder that can drop in to cover.. I've gone 4-4-2 on my save and have a FB-A overlapping a WPM-S on the right, whereas I have FB-Su on the left with a W-A just ahead. This ensures the flanks are generally covered if one of them gets caught out further up the pitch.

As for your striker, I don't really know.. Personally I play with two up front, and haven't had too much joy with 1 man up top so don't feel I can really help out there.

[Marabak]

Hi Bitner

Thank you for your reply.

The sweeper keeper is a good idea, although Forster probably doesn't have the pace for such a role. Currently though I don't see many balls over the top which come to much (I watch on comprehensive most of the time). Maybe this is down to my philosophy of getting stuck in and playing with a BWM which doesn't give the opposition time to get their head up and pick a pass over the top. This is also my logic for a BWM in midfield, I know it can be prone to chasing the ball around but I like the pressing it will do.

I suppose I missed out describing how I want my team to play in the original thread. My board promises are attacking and possession based football, but I also want to play a pressing game. Sit high up the pitch, compress the space, win the ball back quickly and attack. I'm not expecting big counter-attacks or pumping the ball into space. That's why my AP is on support, to stop him wandering too far into the area congested with the IF(A) and F9 but I do have an attacking option from the BBM arriving up the field with the W(A) staying out wide. I had the WB(A) to try and exploit the space left out wide from the IF(A) moving inside. Maybe the IF(A) is too much though, I'll try him on a support duty with CF(S) up front and see what happens there.

Thank you

Edit: Sorry Joe, didn't see your reply when I started typing. I am happy for my FB to get up the pitch (albeit RB is a FB(S) so shouldn't be too often) as I believe (key is my belief not necessarily what is actually happening) that my midfield three aren't too aggressive in getting up the pitch. I do notice that most successful attacks against my come via the flanks though, so maybe my midfield is driving the opposition out wide where the space has been left by my WB

[Marabak]

Taken on board what you both have said, I've switch my BWM for a CM(D) and also swapped his position with the AP(S) (which I could probably make into an AP(A) if I wished now they are more central). Also went Close Down Less on both CDs.

[Bitner]

Well, thanks for considering.

Now if you test, tell us if the team actually improve or got worse.

And, i'd rather use FEllaini as a B2B, because he's a real threat on attack, and i think Wanyama defends better, but it's purely my opinion.

Cheers,

Bitner

[Overmars]

The CM(d) is fine, but ideally, I would want him in the centre of the pitch and back in the DM strata as an anchorman, halfback, DLP(d), or DM(d). Without a DM, I wouldn't give any of my defenders an attack duty for fear of conceding multiple counter opportunities to my opponent.

[jstars]

i disagree a 2 in midfield of dlp(s) and bwm(s) can work well :

[RTHerringbone]

i disagree a 2 in midfield of dlp(s) and bwm(s) can work well :

How and why? Disagreeing is fine, but it has more credibility if you can elaborate with specific reasoning.

[Marabak]

Well, thanks for considering.

Now if you test, tell us if the team actually improve or got worse.

And, i'd rather use FEllaini as a B2B, because he's a real threat on attack, and i think Wanyama defends better, but it's purely my opinion.

Cheers,

Bitner

Well it started well against a 20th placed Norwich, with an competent 2:0 win. Quickly followed up with a 4:0 loss to Man United at Old Trafford, with (Captain?) Januzaj and Depay both ripping my new ones. Back to the drawing board.

I do alternate Fellaini and Wanyama sometimes, but Fellaini's pace worries me for a BBM and Wanyama seems to have a good shot from outside the box.

The CM(d) is fine, but ideally, I would want him in the centre of the pitch and back in the DM strata as an anchorman, halfback, DLP(d), or DM(d). Without a DM, I wouldn't give any of my defenders an attack duty for fear of conceding multiple counter opportunities to my opponent.

A CM(D) doesn't seem to occupy much of a different area to a DM when you watch them on the pitch. I can see your point about being central, but I am looking at him acting as cover for when the WB gets forward.

Edit: I stand corrected. I dropped Fellaini to DM(D) (and swapped him for Ledley), a few other tweaks/rotations of staff and a comprehensive 5:0 win over Everton, who won the league last season by some margin but are currently languishing in 16th.

[jstars]

it creates more goals ... the bwm by design or luck will link up in the attacks and create an extra body going forward as well as helping in defence.

The dlp will just keep the play ticking over. in my save i just have these 2 in the centre strata and dont get dominated in the middle too often

[Marabak]

Just a quick update. I switched to a more traditional 433, dropping my BWM(D) to the DM strata (but keeping it as a BWM as I am more about pressing and winning the ball back than keeping shape/marking space). A few tweaks elsewhere but nothing really major. Depending on how things are going in game, I might switch things up a little, the most common being turning the midfield trio into a deep BWM(D)/Reg(S) with a CM(A) ahead once I am winning comfortably. It seems to keep the midfield a bit tighter but still gets forward enough to support the CF and IF.

It started well with a 5:0 demolition of last seasons Champs (Everton) but the next two games weren't great (narrow losses to two good teams though). Since then unbeaten in 7 and playing quite comfortably, currently sitting around 5-7th place.

[Bitner]

I'm happy to see you doing well, mate.

Hope you get to the Champions League.

Cheers,

Bitner

[aberry160490]

Similar formation I am using and I have risen from the vanarama south to the premier league!

[Joe.]

Certainly looks more balanced to me, especially if you're adjusting the roles of the middle 3 on a relatively consistent basis.. Good stuff.

[summatsupeer]

Try not to judge your tactic too quickly, your strengths/weaknesses will exploit or be exploited against different teams and players. What is a good adjustment against one team might be a bad change vs others.

Nice to see you not just throwing team instructions at it! With those players I think your doing well, with some development / purchases to suit the style & roles you settle on you could be challenging for the title.

[Draakon]

Okay, 4-1-2-3 is 'my tactics' - I've experimented a lot with it. I use similar layout as you do, flexible formation with control strategy. What I'd do:

1) keep both full-backs as FB-support or FB-aut, and at least one of wide players (W or IF) on attack duty (put both on attack if you need a goal, one on support if holding a lead)

2) I use my DMC as my midfield controller - most often as regista, or DLP. But as you're Southamption, I'd go for this option if you're favourites in the match and go for DMC-support in away matches or against top teams

3) put CF to support. Always. He'll come deeper, is more linked with midfield and your wide players on attack duty should go forward to receive his passes.

4) for the same reason put your AP to attack. He needs to move more forward (closer to CF) and, in addition, to become the late runner into opponent box. Your version keeps CF a little too advanced, little too isolated. BBM-s is a solid choice for 2nd midfielder in this formation.

TI-s that I use: prevent short GK distribution, pass out of defense (it's control strategy, of course), fairly wide, look for overlap. Set your GK to short distribution.