New Idea - Scrap Fixed PA

[AB-forever]

@ AB

The pA is evident in FM Genie Scout.

There's plenty of players who have a PA they won't be able to reach, and instead they get a maximum CA.

So pA is the highest a player can go once his original PA has been deemed as out of reach.

Unless the creator of Genie Scout got something wrong, that's the pattern the game follows: CA --> pA. Where pA=PA until a certain age or under certain circumstances, then the gap begins to open itself

I don't use Genie Scout so I have never seen this before, but isn't is possible that this Maximum CA is calculated by the Scout itself when the PA is deemed clearly out of reach? Because I think I would have seen it mentioned somewhere before if SI had included it in the game.

[RBKalle]

I don't use Genie Scout so I have never seen this before, but isn't is possible that this Maximum CA is calculated by the Scout itself when the PA is deemed clearly out of reach? Because I think I would have seen it mentioned somewhere before if SI had included it in the game.

I don't really know how Genie Scout is working that figures out, but I suppose it doesn't take them out of thin air

I call it "pA" to give the idea the original, database-created, PA isn't apparently used anymore in the game.

I could call it "Highest Possible CA" but the point still doesn't change.

In FM, when a players don't get the best possible development conditions after a certain age [or doesn't have the right mental/hidden skills] he just CAN'T reach his PA, no matter what you try.

E.g. if you get a 18yo with 120CA/199PA, but with 4 Professionalism and 3 Ambition, the chances of his PA being fulfilled are close to zero, even if you make him play alongside the best players, and train him with the best staff with the best facilities.

But that also happens in less extreme scenarios.

My main beef with the current CA/PA structure is that it's not flexible...

PA set in stone: not 1 point beyond it.

ANd once the original PA is out of reach, there's no way back...

As the icing on the cake, CA apparently doesn't drop before the decline sets in...

So a 120/120 player can play 50 games with a 7.50 average rating and don't gain a point

But a 120/180 player can sit on the bench a whoel year and still be 120...

Too strict, too one-sided

Flexibility is the key

[AB-forever]

I don't really know how Genie Scout is working that figures out, but I suppose it doesn't take them out of thin air

It could be that it calculates it based on CA, age, mental attributes and so on. But of course there is not much point in arguing this since it's all guesswork at the moment

I call it "pA" to give the idea the original, database-created, PA isn't apparently used anymore in the game.

I could call it "Highest Possible CA" but the point still doesn't change.

In FM, when a players don't get the best possible development conditions after a certain age [or doesn't have the right mental/hidden skills] he just CAN'T reach his PA, no matter what you try.

E.g. if you get a 18yo with 120CA/199PA, but with 4 Professionalism and 3 Ambition, the chances of his PA being fulfilled are close to zero, even if you make him play alongside the best players, and train him with the best staff with the best facilities.

But that also happens in less extreme scenarios.

My main beef with the current CA/PA structure is that it's not flexible...

PA set in stone: not 1 point beyond it.

And once the original PA is out of reach, there's no way back...

As the icing on the cake, CA apparently doesn't drop before the decline sets in...

So a 120/120 player can play 50 games with a 7.50 average rating and don't gain a point

But a 120/180 player can sit on the bench a whoel year and still be 120...

Too strict, too one-sided

Flexibility is the key

I've highlighted the parts that I agree seem wrong.

If the 120/120 player as already playing that well, why should he necessarily improve?

[redDevil89]

AB, he should improve so he can get noticed. No matter how well he plays he will never be considered world class by scouts, other teams or considered for major awards etc, all due to his low CA/PA...His description could also never show him as being world class. Therefore, since he is playing like a world class player, i think its fair for him to get noticed as one. With a PA rise, his description could then show that he is a world class player, instead of a very average player, playing extremely well over an extremely long period of time. Read my post a few posts up to understand what I mean...

[AB-forever]

AB, he should improve so he can get noticed. No matter how well he plays he will never be considered world class by scouts, other teams or considered for major awards etc, all due to his low CA/PA...His description could also never show him as being world class. Therefore, since he is playing like a world class player, i think its fair for him to get noticed as one. With a PA rise, his description could then show that he is a world class player, instead of a very average player, playing extremely well over an extremely long period of time. Read my post a few posts up to understand what I mean...

Well that could be fixed by letting good performances be reflected in a player's reputation, which is what scouts and AI managers etc. use to judge players and make PA invisible to them (as it always should have been IMO).

[RBKalle]

But the giving them a reputation boost [aka "performance-based reward" wouldn't still solve the problem, and it would even create a new one...

The scenario now is:

* John Doe, 24yo CA/PA 120 is playing well for his Average FC, pretty much nobody cares, his value won't raise much, his attributes have peaked already, so you'll get like 6 years of solid and stunning games.

With a "reputation boost" it'll go like:

* Some clubs get interested in John Doe, he wants to leave, so you have to sell him or he'll leave on Bosman anyway.

* John Doe arrives at his new club, but since his attributes are fixed and he CAN'T improve, he'll soon get sold for peanuts, or given a free transfer, as he's clearly not good enough.

With a soft PA ceiling AND reputation boost:

* John Doe plays well for Average FC, to the point he gets slightly better than expected, either there or at his new and better club.

Thus allowing him to have a decent career at an higher level, or even at his old club if you manage to make him stay.

There it goes... But considering AI clubs tend to go for reputation and PA, the combo needs to be weighed well, along with a good tweaking of the scouting/market system.

Otherwise Real Madrid and Man U will start to buy your average Star AMC for £10M as soon as he scores in two consecutive games...

[AB-forever]

But the giving them a reputation boost [aka "performance-based reward" wouldn't still solve the problem, and it would even create a new one...

The scenario now is:

* John Doe, 24yo CA/PA 120 is playing well for his Average FC, pretty much nobody cares, his value won't raise much, his attributes have peaked already, so you'll get like 6 years of solid and stunning games.

With a "reputation boost" it'll go like:

* Some clubs get interested in John Doe, he wants to leave, so you have to sell him or he'll leave on Bosman anyway.

* John Doe arrives at his new club, but since his attributes are fixed and he CAN'T improve, he'll soon get sold for peanuts, or given a free transfer, as he's clearly not good enough.

With a soft PA ceiling AND reputation boost:

* John Doe plays well for Average FC, to the point he gets slightly better than expected, either there or at his new and better club.

Thus allowing him to have a decent career at an higher level, or even at his old club if you manage to make him stay.

There it goes... But considering AI clubs tend to go for reputation and PA, the combo needs to be weighed well, along with a good tweaking of the scouting/market system.

Otherwise Real Madrid and Man U will start to buy your average Star AMC for £10M as soon as he scores in two consecutive games...

You mean two consecutive seasons. Obviously it will probably need to be tweaked a couple of times at first.

About the bolded part: You're completely wrong about "step 2". Because of his higher reputation, his new club will think he is good and they will use him. Either he keeps up his goalscoring antics (for the same reason(s) he was so good for his previous club, whether it was a lucky attribute distribution or great hidden attributes or tactics that suited him well or whatever) or he will fail because the tactics don't suit him or he doesn't like his new teammates or maybe his luck has run out.

[RBKalle]

I doubt they'll play him regularly despite them "thinking" he's better than he actually is...

Do you remember FM09 (was it?) when Top Clubs went on shopping sprees, bringing in like three good-to-great strikers just for the sake of it?

Players who would have indeed been more than ok for the starting XI, but who ended up on the sideline due to extreme competition for the same position.

So if, say, Maxi Rodriguez ended up on the transfer list (and unhappy) after six months of occasional play at Madrid, how could John Doe do better, if he's noticeably weaker?

While I see the AI transfer system has been improved, clubs still bring in unnecessary players, so adding more to their shopping list wouldn't be a good idea

Actually I could just test this scenario, giving an Average Joe Messi's reputation and see what happens

[AB-forever]

I doubt they'll play him regularly despite them "thinking" he's better than he actually is...

Do you remember FM09 (was it?) when Top Clubs went on shopping sprees, bringing in like three good-to-great strikers just for the sake of it?

Players who would have indeed been more than ok for the starting XI, but who ended up on the sideline due to extreme competition for the same position.

So if, say, Maxi Rodriguez ended up on the transfer list (and unhappy) after six months of occasional play at Madrid, how could John Doe do better, if he's noticeably weaker?

While I see the AI transfer system has been improved, clubs still bring in unnecessary players, so adding more to their shopping list wouldn't be a good idea

Actually I could just test this scenario, giving an Average Joe Messi's reputation and see what happens

I don't know if it would work with the current AI managers because I suspect they would need to be tweaked if my suggestion was to be implemented.

[RBKalle]

Yeah I know it's not going to work that well, or to prove that much, as we're talking about something that isn't in the game yet, and it won't probably ever be.

But it's still worth a shot, so at least we can see if a slight raise in PA of peaked players is going to make the difference or not

What about:

Player A: 130/130, with World Class reputation

Player B: 130/145, with standard reputation

Player C: 130/130, with standard reputation

Same savegame, save Top Club. Actually same players with just altered PA/rep before restarting the simulation.

Chances are Player C will be dropped soon, or demoted to reserve football. If he doesn't then I'll rest my case about Soft Ceilings, dynamic CA etc

[AB-forever]

Yeah I know it's not going to work that well, or to prove that much, as we're talking about something that isn't in the game yet, and it won't probably ever be.

But it's still worth a shot, so at least we can see if a slight raise in PA of peaked players is going to make the difference or not

What about:

Player A: 130/130, with World Class reputation

Player B: 130/145, with standard reputation

Player C: 130/130, with standard reputation

Same savegame, save Top Club. Actually same players with just altered PA/rep before restarting the simulation.

Chances are Player C will be dropped soon, or demoted to reserve football. If he doesn't then I'll rest my case about Soft Ceilings, dynamic CA etc

Well Player C should be dropped because the AI won't see him as a very good player. Hopefully Player A will be used quite a bit (and maybe dropped if he underperforms).

[Lonestar]

But the giving them a reputation boost [aka "performance-based reward" wouldn't still solve the problem, and it would even create a new one...

With a "reputation boost" it'll go like:

* Some clubs get interested in John Doe, he wants to leave, so you have to sell him or he'll leave on Bosman anyway.

* John Doe arrives at his new club, but since his attributes are fixed and he CAN'T improve, he'll soon get sold for peanuts, or given a free transfer, as he's clearly not good enough.

But this is what happens in real life all the time. Think of all the failed transfers of young players who don't make it at the bigger club. Don't make the game allow players to get better just because you want them to. Players are limited because real people are limited. If anything, the game should eliminate references to potential and more of the above should happen.

[x42bn6]

Yes, think of all the failed transfers - but what about those who succeed?

If they succeed because their potential should have been higher, then it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to begin with.

[RBKalle]

But this is what happens in real life all the time. Think of all the failed transfers of young players who don't make it at the bigger club. Don't make the game allow players to get better just because you want them to. Players are limited because real people are limited. If anything, the game should eliminate references to potential and more of the above should happen.

Some transfer fail, some others don't...

But my example was strictly referring to the "average player who gets a reputation boost for his good performances instead of a slight raise in attributes" scenario. Which is hypothetical and definitely not part of FM10.

In reality there's no reputation boost WITHOUT a player having improved his skills, and the other way around.

It's not because "players should become better because I want them to"...

It's because if a Championship striker begins to score consistently in Premier League, it must be because he has gotten BETTER, not because his reputation has gone up a bit.

"In real life" John Doe got signed by a better club because he has delivered the goods at his previous club, thus getting noticed.

THEN he can either hold his own or flop badly, but the point is he is anyway a better player than he was at the beginning of his stint at the original club!

In FM that is just possible when:

* the player is young

* the player hasn't reached his PA

but if the player has peaked already, he can win the Golden Boot and the Golden Ball for 10 years straight but he won't ever get better than he already is.

So either we accept the fact a 160CA/PA striker can be more effective than all the Messis and Ronaldos, or we agree the CA/PA development [and hard ceiling] is in need of a good tweak.

[SCIAG]

A 160 CA striker could be that effective, easily.

There often are reputation boosts based on players improving form but not skills. Look at Leroy Lita- 11 goals in 10 for Reading (or there about), top scorer at the Euro u21 Championships, performing like a CA 140 player, maybe, then scored 2 league goals in 2 years for Reading and was released. He's now a back up for Middlesborough, and around CA 105.

In real life, if a player has peaked, they won't improve if they win every match. Imagine a regen called Drogier Didba, from Burkina Faso. He plays well in France, and end up "settling" at 150 CA, despite having a PA of 170, due to the low standard of league, and poor facilities and coaches at the club he's at. He moves to Fulham, who have an Arab billionaire backing them, and he suddenly has the drive and ability to improve to the level he had the potential to reach. Said player hadn't peaked. However, let's imagine Durada Andine, his international strike partner with parents who couldn't spell. He is in the same boat as Didba, but his CA meets his PA of 130. He comes to play for Bournemouth, who have got promoted but run into more money woes and can only afford cheap players like him. He scores a few goals, like you'd expect a 130 player to do, but he doesn't rip it up, and he doesn't improve much. Even if he does knock in 10 goals, he isn't necessarily a better player.

[AB-forever]

Some transfer fail, some others don't...

But my example was strictly referring to the "average player who gets a reputation boost for his good performances instead of a slight raise in attributes" scenario. Which is hypothetical and definitely not part of FM10.

In reality there's no reputation boost WITHOUT a player having improved his skills, and the other way around.

It's not because "players should become better because I want them to"...

It's because if a Championship striker begins to score consistently in Premier League, it must be because he has gotten BETTER, not because his reputation has gone up a bit.

"In real life" John Doe got signed by a better club because he has delivered the goods at his previous club, thus getting noticed.

THEN he can either hold his own or flop badly, but the point is he is anyway a better player than he was at the beginning of his stint at the original club!

In FM that is just possible when:

* the player is young

* the player hasn't reached his PA

but if the player has peaked already, he can win the Golden Boot and the Golden Ball for 10 years straight but he won't ever get better than he already is.

So either we accept the fact a 160CA/PA striker can be more effective than all the Messis and Ronaldos, or we agree the CA/PA development [and hard ceiling] is in need of a good tweak.

When a player plays well it is not always because he is good. Often if a lesser team plays well it is because they have a great tactic that plays off their players' strenghts. Like SCIAG said, a player can play very well for a while (that could be several years) without actually being better than before.

[x42bn6]

Well I'm not sure because if a player continuously plays well then he is bound to learn something from it - how to possibly exploit a certain weakness in other players, for example. Other players will begin to treat him more as a threat and he must learn to adapt to it rather like second-season syndrome and if he pulls through that he would have learnt a lot more. With confidence in his play he may well know how to get his form back quicker when it fails him and if he is a striker and is extremely clinical on this purple patch he may start to learn better how to strike the ball.

To me this tells me that players may possibly still improve at their peak. If a player finds he is simply doing things "right" on a very consistent basis he will improve in some way. In real life if the player is young and we find this player doing very well consistently you would not think he has peaked - he can still improve.

[Smoggie]

My two cents worth is that PA should be scrapped from future FM's keeps the CA but the only way for a players CA to increase is down to training, the coaching staff at a club, the facilities of the club and maybe how many games the player plays and club rep and even the CA can go up and down at times (nothing to dramatic)

It seems in previous FM's, at the top Prem club, most of the youngsters got a -8, -9 or -10 but have these players actually made it to the 1st team IRL and made a name for themselves? (remember that -9 or-10 player that played for Man Utd but ended up at Sheff Wed in real life?)

There’s been to many cases in FM were a player has high PA but has failed to reach that IRL and vice versa, has a low PA in FM but has made it IRL, scrapping PA but improving the scouting in the game “might” actually make the game more enjoyable and might even get a player to think more about who to buy.

[Brian Shanahan]

My two cents worth is that PA should be scrapped from future FM's keeps the CA but the only way for a players CA to increase is down to training, the coaching staff at a club, the facilities of the club and maybe how many games the player plays and club rep and even the CA can go up and down at times (nothing to dramatic)

It seems in previous FM's, at the top Prem club, most of the youngsters got a -8, -9 or -10 but have these players actually made it to the 1st team IRL and made a name for themselves? (remember that -9 or-10 player that played for Man Utd but ended up at Sheff Wed in real life?)

There’s been to many cases in FM were a player has high PA but has failed to reach that IRL and vice versa, has a low PA in FM but has made it IRL, scrapping PA but improving the scouting in the game “might” actually make the game more enjoyable and might even get a player to think more about who to buy.

But if you scrap PA then you would be able to bring any player up to the level of Messi or higher in the game. This would make it even easier, as the player wouldn't need to have any sort of transfer policy after the first few years, just get the facilities to top, bring in a load of regens, train them, play them, retire them, rinse and repeat.

On your example of players not succeding at Utd. and their PA's; -8 is 120-150, i.e. at best John O'Shea a squad player, but more likely a player to be sold on for profit; -9 is 150-180, between a decent first team player at a club like Utd and a keeper (an example woulf be Darren Fletcher). It is only -10 that are ones you need to keep no matter what (well until they're 24 anyway). There have been probably very few -10 players going through Utd in all the games since the current system was adopted. Also who is this -9/-10 player you're talking about?

[looknohands]

But if you scrap PA then you would be able to bring any player up to the level of Messi or higher in the game. This would make it even easier, as the player wouldn't need to have any sort of transfer policy after the first few years, just get the facilities to top, bring in a load of regens, train them, play them, retire them, rinse and repeat.

On your example of players not succeding at Utd. and their PA's; -8 is 120-150, i.e. at best John O'Shea a squad player, but more likely a player to be sold on for profit; -9 is 150-180, between a decent first team player at a club like Utd and a keeper (an example woulf be Darren Fletcher). It is only -10 that are ones you need to keep no matter what (well until they're 24 anyway). There have been probably very few -10 players going through Utd in all the games since the current system was adopted. Also who is this -9/-10 player you're talking about?

Why does everyone keep insisting that scrapping the current PA system will automatically produce world-class stars? As I suggested previously, give the players about a six-year window (24-30 or so) and have their PA reflect their in-game performance, meaning:

Player A, age 24, Striker in League 2:

105 CA, 110 PA (on "natural talent" as given in the DB)

First season scores 25 goals, with a 7.6 rating. +5 added to his PA.

Second season scores 28 goals with a 7.8 rating. +3 added to his PA, as the level of competition isn't very great. At this point, Player A could continue on in League 2, where the lower level of competition would limit his PA to 120 or so. However, given his two proficient seasons it's likely that a higher-level team would sign him, so we now have:

Player A, age 26, Striker in League 1:

118 PA

Third season scores 8 goals and averages a 6.8. PA doesn't change, but his CA may actually regress a few points.

Fourth season scores 25 goals and averages a 7.4. +5 added to his PA. Signed by a Championship side.

Player A, age 27, Striker in the Championship:

123 PA

Fifth season scores 14 goals, 7.2 rating. +3 PA

Sixth season scores 30 goals, 7.8 rating. +5 PA. Signs with a Premier League squad.

Player A, age 29, Striker in the Premier League:

131 PA

Seventh season scores 20 goals, 7.4 rating. +5 PA. At this point the player has reached his "peak" as a striker, according to FM. If PA changes are still utilized, only minor tweaks (no more than +2 after a season) should be allowed.

Eigth season scores 25 goals, 7.7 rating. Possibly a 2 point increase to PA, if any.

After Eight mostly productive seasons, a lower-level player has increased his PA by roughly 25 points. Hardly a world-beater, but something that you would expect to see replicated. Also, it's important to note that ANY PA change would be entirely dependant upon the player EXCEEDING the performance expected of a player relative to the league he's playing in. Obviously, a once-promising star with a PA of 170 toiling away in League one wouldn't see any increase to his PA unless he was performing exceptionally well at the highest level. It'd be rare -but certainly not impossible- for players to consistently put in performances that would warrant such a "drastic" change to their potential over the course of six or seven years. However, it'd be immensely rewarding for those players that start out in a lower league or sign "lesser" players to gradually develop them as they play out their FM career.

[RBKalle]

That could definitely work...

CA can increase AND decrease depending on performances and league standard [say, scoring 30 goals in German Regionalliga wouldn't grant the same "bonus" of scoring 20 in EPL], and we wouldn't even need a PA anymore.

Maybe just keeping a Negative PA as a generic "talent indicator", where a player with -9PA will improve faster and better than a -6PA player, given their performances are the same.

But on the same vein, a -9 player wasting some years between bench and Tier 2, will improve slower [if at all] than a -6 player who's enjoying a good spell of first time football even in a mid/bottom table side in Tier 1.

Then of course, should both get signed by a top club, the -9 guy will have a better chance to catch up, but considering he had been lost in the shuffle, that signing might never happen.

Take Giovinco and Candreva, both born in early 1987...

The former debuted with Juventus at age 19, had a great season at Empoli in his first Serie A stint, then came back to Juventus with great expectations, but has since been fallen from grace, getting demoted to rotation/backup, with just 34 apps, mostly as late substitute, of football in the last two seasons.

On the other hand, Candreva was nowhere to be seen in Udinese while the pundits were in awe with Giovinco's spell at Empoli... Then one and a half good-ish seasons in Livorno and the "sudden" call at Juventus.

So in a bizarre twist of fate, the newcomer brought in as little more than a panic signing has played more than the almost estranged Wonderkid...

In terms of FM, Giovinco would have had a much higher CA/PA, based on his reputation, DESPITE his performances, while Candreva would probably get an average CA/PA, because he didn't get so much hype earlier in his career.

But the real-life situation would be impossible under FM's current structure...

[Brian Shanahan]

Why does everyone keep insisting that scrapping the current PA system will automatically produce world-class stars?

Because PA is a maximal limit imposed in the game in order to reflect the real life situation that people get so good and then plateau. Without this limit if you have good facilities and you give the players enough game time at the proper level then the sky's the limit.

If you remember that PA is in the game just to ensure that a limited player stays a limited player no matter what kind of training or game time he gets then you will see my objection.

I'll finish off on an illustrative example: Darren Fletcher, while he is very effective in what he does, he is limited in the direction of his skills development and the level they stopped developing at. This is a real life equivalent of a low PA player being developed in the right areas to get the best results. However if there were no PAs in the game a player Farren Dletcher with much the same starting stats and probable development curve as Darren appeared in a game without limits, then he would be developable in such a way that he would be a better player than Leo Messi (at 195 the highest RL player in the game AFAIK).

People have limits and its extremely rare that these limits are exceeded through natural talent, in my mind Pele, Maradonna, Best, Garrincha, Cruijff and Puskas are the only ones that have done it, with Messi being able to break the barrier; or through diligence and hard training, Kevin Keegan the only example I can think of for this situation.

[Jhemo]

great idea...

[looknohands]

Because PA is a maximal limit imposed in the game in order to reflect the real life situation that people get so good and then plateau. Without this limit if you have good facilities and you give the players enough game time at the proper level then the sky's the limit.

If you remember that PA is in the game just to ensure that a limited player stays a limited player no matter what kind of training or game time he gets then you will see my objection.

I'll finish off on an illustrative example: Darren Fletcher, while he is very effective in what he does, he is limited in the direction of his skills development and the level they stopped developing at. This is a real life equivalent of a low PA player being developed in the right areas to get the best results. However if there were no PAs in the game a player Farren Dletcher with much the same starting stats and probable development curve as Darren appeared in a game without limits, then he would be developable in such a way that he would be a better player than Leo Messi (at 195 the highest RL player in the game AFAIK).

People have limits and its extremely rare that these limits are exceeded through natural talent, in my mind Pele, Maradonna, Best, Garrincha, Cruijff and Puskas are the only ones that have done it, with Messi being able to break the barrier; or through diligence and hard training, Kevin Keegan the only example I can think of for this situation.

I understand your point, and that's why I feel that my system of weighing performance vs. competition level would be an effective solution. A player must perform well in more and more challenging leagues in order to raise his PA. Fletcher, for example- what happens if he suddenly scores 30 goals next season and is named Player of the Year? I'd place good money on his PA being boosted in the next database. Will he do it? There's very little chance of that happening...but a chance nonetheless. My idea would allow for that possibility. Again, we're relying on the opinions of a handful of individuals to determine how good players can theoretically "be" in the game, and there's always the option that players will fail to realize that potential. However, the current system makes no room for researchers to undervalue a player's ability, and that's where I have a problem.

Again, facilities will play a factor in shaping the player's "natural" potential, i.e. the original talent level the game sets forth for him at the start. These facilities and training will be the dominant factors in determining how well a player develops until the age of 24, which is where the game restricts a player's ability to improve rapidly. After that, though, a player should still be able to develop reflective to his performance; it doesn't matter if a player has no weight room and no coach...if he goes out and leads the league in scoring, he should see an increase to his PA relative to the level of competition he's facing. This would limit the ability of players to stockpile youths and loan them out to low-level leagues wherein they could dominate. The system could use a form of "tiered cap" based on team and league rep- the biggest leagues of the world could develop a player to the maximum of 200PA, assuming that said player was able to perform at such an incredible level over a series of years to warrant such an increase. But a second-tier league? Maybe cap the possible at 180 or so. Third-tier? 160. This, I believe, would also increase the likelihood of such players to move to progressively more challenging leagues, which is something I feel the current lacks. For example, I play exclusively in MLS. If I had a player that consistently led the league in scoring over the course of 4 years and averaged an 8.0 rating, but never received an offer for him, I could rightfully assume that the player's ability level was too low to attract the interest of a bigger club. With my system, however, that player could develop just enough to attract said interest, and possibly move to a bigger club wherein he could either a. fail to catch on, resulting in a dip of his current ability, b. perform adequately, in which case no adjustment would be needed to his ability, or c. thrive and push his way towards tougher competition before he "peaks" and his skills start to diminish.

[joey6]

Best ability and training thing ive seen is in Total Club Manager, there was no cap on their ability, just down to your training, I think PA needs to be looked at though.

[x42bn6]

Best ability and training thing ive seen is in Total Club Manager, there was no cap on their ability, just down to your training, I think PA needs to be looked at though.

There were "levels" in TCM 2005, where some players had "high" levels as youngsters so their actual ability could never develop as high as, say, Rooney (who was ridiculously overpowered in that game ).

[Piadinaro]

There are also example of players improving after 28 (Diego Milito) or even after 33 (Javier Zanetti). In my opinion the PA could be also a fixed number, but the improvement of CA should be different for the different players.

Keeping the PA as it is now in the game, the CA could increase consistently during the years:

- for the 80% of players until the player is 24-25yo (as it is now in the game)

- for 15% of players when the player is 25-29 yo (like Drogba, Milito)

- for 5% of players when the player is 30-34 yo (like Zanetti)

Of course this would be completely random...

[RBKalle]

The "all players can become World Class if they play and train at a Top Club" objection is a good one, but it vastly overrates the CA growth as it currently is in the game.

How many of the 180+PA youngsters actually fulfill their potential in the game, despite being at world's best clubs? Not that many IMO.

Actually the hardest part of the game is turning a promising youngster [often an horribly flawed newgen] into a new version of Rooney/Gerrard/Terry.

So even if we remove PA altogether [something I'm not totally for.. I'm more on the Soft Ceiling, Talent Range], Johnny Smith and Rob Johnson wouldn't suddenly turn into godlike players just because you signed them at Barça from Coventry.

It would really take them a bunch of insanely good seasons there in order to gain enough CA/skills to get close to the World Class level.

And a decent developement system would make almost impossible for any League One schmuck to become the new Milito anyway.

I think a good starting point could be similar to the UEFA coefficient, where the CA increase takes into account:

* Player's Talent [that would be the current -PA range, so it still gives us a guideline and some sort of "talent segregation"]

* League Standard

* Actual Performance

So a former League One player [probably with a relatively low Talent, -5/-6] would really need something extraordinary to become good enough for EPL, and even if he was signed for a club there, he'd still need time and consistently good performances in order to "take the level".

Keeping it very simple it could go like this:

CA Increase= Average Rating*League Standard/Talent Level

And of course we'd still need to sneak into it the Apps weighing, so that a player with 2 caps and a 8.00 AvR wouldn't get an higher bonus than a player with 36 apps and a 7.10 AvR...

Maybe CAI= (AvR*LS/TL) * % of minutes played.

But I suppose there are much better mathematical minds than mine, so I'll just leave it to you

[conshaldo_bonaldo]

"Flexible PA isn't about wanting every player to become a wonderkid, it's about wanting more variety and chances of developing players in different ways "

[Novox]

In my opinion, the best way to improve the system is to implament a soft ceiling measure as mentioned before on this post.

The system would work somewhat like this :

Once a player reaches the highest level of PA given to him, if he continues to perform superbly and reaches a rating of 7.3 or above at the end of the season, he can continue to move beyond his PA. Then, you establish a variable where the closer the PA approaches 200, the harder it is. This way, players like lampard realistically can't move up to 190CA. A move from 140 to 155 is much easier then a move from 180 to 185.

Then, you install another variable that considers the validity of the ratings given to him in every league. A rating of 7.4 in the EPL is much different from a rating of 7.4 in the Scottish Premier League.

Latebloomers should be based on their hidden stats, ie. a combination of professionalism, ambition and lastly, determination.