Barcelona's Alternative Formation (Used v Arsenal)

[SnakeXe]

Barcelona used a very different formation to their usual 4-3-3 from last season against Arsenal, and they have been using it quite consistently over the last few matches. In fact, it seems to have taken over as their plan A - time will tell whether it stays that way.

The main reasons (imho) for its development are the decline of Thierry Henry, and Jose Bosingwa's nullification of Messi in the semi-final last season. There's a far more in depth analysis of it here if you're interested.

The formation has been variously described as 4-2-3-1 and 4-2-4 (in the Brazil 1970 mould), and as I was watching them demolish Arsenal last night I thought I'd have a crack at replicating it on FM. So here it is:

The Shape:

The Roles:

GK: Goalkeeper - Nothing to see here, move along

DR: Wing Back - Naturally Alves' game, and his role in Barca's formation, is to get forward and stretch the opposition

DL: Full Back - I noticed when watching last night that Abidal stayed back slightly more often than Alves, so I replicated this with the slightly less attacking role

DCR: Ball Playing Defender - Pique is vital to Barcelona's build up play with his quality on the ball from the back

DCL: Central Defender - Standard duties for Puyol - although he does get out and play the ball, he generally plays it simpler and quicker than Pique as he is less technically gifted

DM: Anchor Man - Busquets drops in as a third centre-half for Barca when the fullbacks bomb on, and it's this defensive awareness that allows them to do so, as well as Pique and Puyol to push wider to aid their distribution

MC: Deep Lying Playmaker - Naturally Xavi runs the game from the midfield

ML: Wide Midfielder - I haven't perfected Iniesta's role here yet, but it works well with Keita's work rate and physical prowess

AMR: Winger - Also works well as an Inside Forward if you wish to have Pedro and Messi swapping, but I prefer to leave Pedro there to really push wide and make the space for Messi to weave his magic

AMC: Various - Messi's role really depends on how the opposition try and counter him. As a default I have him set to Trequartista with Forward Runs modified to Often, Run With Ball to Often, and Through Balls to Sometimes. This sees him play almost on a line with Ibrahimovic, but with license to drop deeper. If he isn't seeing a lot of the ball, it can be useful to drop him deeper more permanently as an Inside Forward with a Support role, whilst changing Pedro to an Attacking role so they don't get in each others' way.

ST: Deep Lying Forward - I haven't paid too much thought to this yet, but it seems to work well as it is.

Instructions:

I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) school of team instructions, so there's not much to see here. It's all pretty well based on what Barca do - apart from the Pressing. Barcelona's Pressing is absolutely phenomenal, and I can't seem to replicate it on FM without knackering the whole team. If you want to switch it to More Pressing, feel free, it still works fine, but tires the team out quite a bit.

With regards to set pieces, I have a corner routine set up to give Pique a 1v1 at the far post, it scores probably more than average, but I wouldn't consider it an exploit. The tactic would work perfectly well without it anyway.

Additional Comments:

One of the best things about this formation is that you can instantly switch to a 4-3-3 with Pedro and Messi on the wings with Iniesta coming back into the middle if it's not going well. It's very solid defensively, scores plenty of goals going forward, and seems to give a decent representation of what Barca really do.

As for results, so far I've won 24 from 28 in the league (3 draws and a loss being the others), including doing the double over Real Madrid, and in the Champions League beat Milan in the San Siro 2-0 very comfortably.

Obviously I've only tested it with Barcelona, as I was trying to play like them, and it's not a wonder tactic, but it's an interesting exercise I thought I'd share with everyone

Download link here (Filefront).

Edit: Just finished the season, won everything but the Spanish Cup, which I lost in the final of as both Pedro and Messi were injured. Dominated in the league, won 33 out of 38 matches, lost just one, and drew the rest. 25 clean sheets, just 16 goals conceded. Only made one signing - Fran Merida - who wasn't first choice anyway.

Dani Alves, Seydou Keita, Xavi, Pedro, Lionel Messi, Gai Assulin, Andres Iniesta, Thierry Henry, Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Bojan all ended up with more than 10 goals and/or assists. Messi was the king with 27 goals and 23 assists.

[SUCK IT]

What was Messi's goals and assists record. This tactic looks very interesting

[SnakeXe]

Apperances: 30 (4 sub)

Goals: 18

Assists: 18

Not bad considering I've been developing it as the season has progressed, and he's had a fair few niggles

[blomqvist23]

what tactic? its one player (Messi) tactic LOL.

nice post

[SUCK IT]

Nice return, gonna try this soon

[Corkey]

They used a 4-3-3 against Arsenal... Just Bojan played at Inside Foward an would cut inside to and Abidal and MAxwell would exploit the Left Flank

[SnakeXe]

what tactic? its one player (Messi) tactic LOL.

nice post

If you just put Messi in amongst 9 other outfied players randomly it will not yield as good results as if you arrange them all to create space for him. See Argentina under Maradona for an example of how not to do it

[SUCK IT]

Any shouts used or OI

[SnakeXe]

They used a 4-3-3 against Arsenal... Just Bojan played at Inside Foward an would cut inside to and Abidal and MAxwell would exploit the Left Flank

Oh really? Average position map of both teams:

Source

Looks like 4-2-4 to me

Any shouts used or OI

I haven't used any OI, and I use any shouts that seem relevant to use during the course of the game. My most commonly used one is Work Ball Into Box, cause Zlatan likes to go a bit 35-yarder crazy sometimes

[SUCK IT]

Lol I noticed mate

[Corkey]

Oh really? Average position map of both teams:

Source

Looks like 4-2-4 to me

I haven't used any OI, and I use any shouts that seem relevant to use during the course of the game. My most commonly used one is Work Ball Into Box, cause Zlatan likes to go a bit 35-yarder crazy sometimes

They were mvoing all over the place. Thre was no real fixed positon. Messi played really deep. Acting as a 'dummy' striker if you will. Then Pedro Stayed wide. Bojan tucked in.

That was what I saw from the Front 3.

[SnakeXe]

They were mvoing all over the place. Thre was no real fixed positon. Messi played really deep. Acting as a 'dummy' striker if you will. Then Pedro Stayed wide. Bojan tucked in.

That was what I saw from the Front 3.

They were certainly the most advanced 3, and what you're saying is all correct, but also consistent with my 4-2-4 interpretation, which is backed up by UEFA's average position data.

Keita does play deeper than Pedro, Bojan and Messi, but he plays most definitely wide left, not central. It is an argument of interpretation whether to consider him as part of a lopsided 3 in midfield or to include him with the 3 more attacking players.

Alex Ferguson famously said he's never played a 4-4-2 whilst at Man Utd (rather 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1), but every newspaper match report for 15 years lined them up that way.

[megafan2005]

Messi played as a false 9 which is hard to set up in FM terms, Bojan lone frontman with Pedro swapping wings iirc. Not that there tactic is even remotely possible to accurately re-create on FM.

[rotfleo]

messi when he touch the ball in fm he get injured immediatly...its a **** game

[SnakeXe]

Messi played as a false 9 which is hard to set up in FM terms, Bojan lone frontman with Pedro swapping wings iirc. Not that there tactic is even remotely possible to accurately re-create on FM.

So you're saying I did a poor job of it? I think it's pretty close to be honest. Messi's role is the hardest to set up well, but with the Trequartista setting mentioned in the OP he seems to play very much as a false 9.

[megafan2005]

So you're saying I did a poor job of it? I think it's pretty close to be honest. Messi's role is the hardest to set up well, but with the Trequartista setting mentioned in the OP he seems to play very much as a false 9.

No I think you re-created it well

where did you get that impression?

[SnakeXe]

No I think you re-created it well

where did you get that impression?

Sorry must have misinterpreted what you said :o

I'd like to give this a go with other, similar players to Barca's. It seems to work well still with the backups (Jeffren, Assulin, etc) so it'd be nice to try with a slightly lower down side. Any suggestions for a suitable one?

Edit: Yes I did misinterpret, I missed the word "accurately" on the end, d'oh! It is fairly impossible to get it just right, which is the reason I included the first image in the OP to show what is actually looks like better than the grid system on FM can do.

[2vA]

i've watched the game and it was one beautiful messi show.but when you look closer you could see that this team moves as one unit on the field, very impressive team spirit there.

its impossible to recreate the barca system within the tactics creator limitations but you can come fairly close to it at least.

looks like you've done that, nice work there man

[SnakeXe]

i've watched the game and it was one beautiful messi show.but when you look closer you could see that this team moves as one unit on the field, very impressive team spirit there.

its impossible to recreate the barca system within the tactics creator limitations but you can come fairly close to it at least.

looks like you've done that, nice work there man

Thanks

As I said in the OP, Barca's team pressing game seems impossible to mirror properly in FM - probably rightly as I've never seen anything quite like it! Something to look at for the next version of the Tactics Creator perhaps

[SnakeXe]

Edited OP to add more info about how the testing has gone.

[AcidBurn]

This is spot on Revista La Liga on Sky were saying this is how Barcelona have lined up 8 times in the last 9 games. With Eto'o gone and Henry out of form this is their best set up. Strange you should build the tactic I was thinking of doing it myself but I don't have the confidence to put anything I do up for download. I have played Messi at AMC for 15 games or so and got him to roughly a goal a game but that involves changing the settings in the advanced part. Are you using purely the tactics creator?

[SnakeXe]

This is spot on Revista La Liga on Sky were saying this is how Barcelona have lined up 8 times in the last 9 games. With Eto'o gone and Henry out of form this is their best set up. Strange you should build the tactic I was thinking of doing it myself but I don't have the confidence to put anything I do up for download. I have played Messi at AMC for 15 games or so and got him to roughly a goal a game but that involves changing the settings in the advanced part. Are you using purely the tactics creator?

I've used the tactics creator almost purely for this, I've tweaked Messi's instructions a little, as neither the Trequartista or Inside Forward role appear to be satisfactory, but I leave all the incremental sliders alone.

Iniesta's role definitely needs looking at as he had a poor season by his standards. Pedro's is one I want to look at as well, as he seems to consistently get fairly average ratings despite playing well according to what I see on the pitch.

I'd love to see how you've approached it yourself if you wouldn't mind describing it?

[AcidBurn]

That's how I have set up Messi and he has 9 in 9 but only 3 assists and an average rating of 7.96. He doesn't quite do as many dribbles as he does in real life but I am not sure that can even be achieved. Probably could even up his mentality if trying to match real life. I have also found it hard to get Iniesta performing on the flanks, I put him at AML instead of LM to try and get him involved a bit more as an advanced playmaker. The rest is pretty much the same as you have it I just wish Iniesta could perform a bit better than he does.

I know you talked about the striker position working but this is how I set up Ibrahimovic it might be more down to his stats but he is the best player in my team, 13 goals in 11 games. I have used this set up with a lot of teams and it gets the ST and AM working in tandum. There are a few goals which involve either the striker feeding the AMC or the AMC dribbling then one two with ST and then goal.

These settings might not be exact to how they play but they get me results. I am actually surprised that all the other settings are virtually the same or at least designed to play the same role.

[SnakeXe]

Looks good, thanks for setting that out

Ibra does pretty well for me, as does Bojan in the same role. Does he not get too isolated being that much higher than Messi in terms of mentality? Messi and Ibra play almost as a two up front for me, with Messi dropping off to find space when we don't have the ball.

If I'm staying true to what Barca actually do I think I have to keep Iniesta in the deeper ML position. Keita actually plays really well there, his physical power really makes the role work as a kind of wide box-to-box player. Obviously this isn't Iniesta's game, so it's probably why he isn't doing as well.

I might try and ape some of the settings from the Advanced Playmaker MC role for him, and tell him to cut inside. Once he is set up right then I'll try and balance Pedro out as well, don't want to change too much at once

[AcidBurn]

Surprisingly he doesn't get isolated at all could be the run from deep instruction that keeps them close together. I will be looking forward to this if you can get Iniesta and Pedro performing well. I am taking a break from my Barcelona game for a few weeks, hopefully time enough for you to perfect this lol. Good luck dude.

[SnakeXe]

Cheers, if the thread has died by then drop me a PM

[megafan2005]

SnakeXe

I think I might look into recreating Barca's style with their traditional 451 and also something similar to this. Do you mind if I were to put up my ideas here? Or is this just for your tactic?

[SnakeXe]

SnakeXe

I think I might look into recreating Barca's style with their traditional 451 and also something similar to this. Do you mind if I were to put up my ideas here? Or is this just for your tactic?

Go ahead, makes sense for the discussion to all be in one thread

I've got a version of the 4-5-1 as well as a plan B/for when Messi is injured, so we'll have to compare those too

[Mash]

very good the tactic work very well : )

thanks ; )

[SnakeXe]

You're welcome

Have you been using it with Barcelona, or another team?

[rotfleo]

LOL works really good.. messi seems god like in the real

[Cardiovascular]

This is my attempted version of the tactic;

I'm not tactically clued up in all honesty but it's going well so far. Results (just after Super Cup)

The only bad result is the Toshkent one, I didn't realise everyone was away on international duty until hours before the game.

[SnakeXe]

Looks interesting Cardiovascular, do you use Pedro in the inside right position?

From just looking at it I would have thought Messi would get a bit crowded with the right winger pushing inside like that, although it does leave more space for Alves to do his damage. Keep us up to date with the results

[Cardiovascular]

Yep, you're completely right about Messi. Hasn't done anything fo note so far since the reserve game so will try an inside forward on the right win instead. Alves does brilliant up the right though. Will do

[megafan2005]

Barca do not have an anchorman in my opinion probably a defensive midfielder on support role would be more realistic thats from me testing your tactic SnakeXe although I wont have much time to dedicate to using this tactic or even attempting my own at the moment.

[QiwNdutz]

Thanks

As I said in the OP, Barca's team pressing game seems impossible to mirror properly in FM - probably rightly as I've never seen anything quite like it! Something to look at for the next version of the Tactics Creator perhaps

Hi, mate. It's a really good formations you have based on the IRL Barca.

I only want to add Barca's pressing is a strategy called zone press, and it's hard to create it in FM anyway.

[Guv'nor]

Try using a higher defensive line and a global 'closing down often' approach. Also, to get more from your frontline, you could set them to man-mark the opposing centrehalves, or using opposition instructions, select closing down always for every single one of the opposition's players.

[SnakeXe]

Barca do not have an anchorman in my opinion probably a defensive midfielder on support role would be more realistic thats from me testing your tactic SnakeXe although I wont have much time to dedicate to using this tactic or even attempting my own at the moment.

Busquets' role is another which is tricky to replicate in FM. As I said in the OP, basically he drops in as a third centre-back when the full-backs bomb forward to create a back three, and then when they're back he moves into midfield to pressure the opposition and give the extra man in there. His is another role I'm looking at improving for the next version of the tactic (along with Iniesta and Pedro).

Hi, mate. It's a really good formations you have based on the IRL Barca.

I only want to add Barca's pressing is a strategy called zone press, and it's hard to create it in FM anyway.

Thanks man

With regards to the pressing, this is a brilliant article on it, from the ever-genius Jonathan Wilson.

Try using a higher defensive line and a global 'closing down often' approach. Also' date=' to get more from your frontline, you could set them to man-mark the opposing centrehalves, or using opposition instructions, select closing down always for every single one of the opposition's players.[/quote']

Man marking is a good idea actually, I hadn't thought of that. Barcelona make the pitch seem very small because they're right on top of the opposition as soon as they win the ball, which I haven't managed to do with any combination of closing down instructions, but adding man/tight marking into the mix might help

[QiwNdutz]

Busquets' role is another which is tricky to replicate in FM. As I said in the OP, basically he drops in as a third centre-back when the full-backs bomb forward to create a back three, and then when they're back he moves into midfield to pressure the opposition and give the extra man in there. His is another role I'm looking at improving for the next version of the tactic (along with Iniesta and Pedro).

Thanks man

With regards to the pressing, this is a brilliant article on it, from the ever-genius Jonathan Wilson.

Man marking is a good idea actually, I hadn't thought of that. Barcelona make the pitch seem very small because they're right on top of the opposition as soon as they win the ball, which I haven't managed to do with any combination of closing down instructions, but adding man/tight marking into the mix might help

Actually I'm in the middle of developing zone press with 4-1-2-2-1, so far so good.

1) You can use closing down whole pitch + man marking + tight for everyone except you 4 defenders.

2) Push-up defensive line, wide width, focus passing down both flanks, counter attack, offside trap.

2) The stamina problem that drains so fast is not an important thing because when you press you opponent you will get the ball quickly, which is the main aim to play possession football.

Anyway, I try the strategy with Man Utd (midfield: Fletcher, Hargreaves, Anderson), so I don't know if Xavi and Iniesta in FM can cope with high pressing system. But for zone press itself, I can't make the 3 forwards move back to the middle so I think it's only a pressing strategy.

[Rich...]

I've started using this midway through my first season with Man United and Park is the standout performer playing in the Iniesta/Keita role that you have mentioned you are struggling with!

[megafan2005]

Not a bad start with this formation quite pleased with it! Less long shots and more possession and CCCs but apart from that pretty incredible in my opinion.

Watching El Clasico at the moment, what the hell are Barca playing. Maxwell Pique and Militio at the back, Dalves and Puyol down the right and Puyol everywhere. No one up front. I cant even describe it!

[AcidBurn]

I don't know what the hell they were playing tonight but it worked. Maxwell was upfront for a few minutes as well, Alves at AMR at first then RB. Puyol played everywhere just about, mad lol.

[Cardiovascular]

I'm going to try your tactic with SnakeXe with Liverpool then continue trying my own one with Barca and Pool.

[SnakeXe]

Actually I'm in the middle of developing zone press with 4-1-2-2-1, so far so good.

1) You can use closing down whole pitch + man marking + tight for everyone except you 4 defenders.

2) Push-up defensive line, wide width, focus passing down both flanks, counter attack, offside trap.

2) The stamina problem that drains so fast is not an important thing because when you press you opponent you will get the ball quickly, which is the main aim to play possession football.

Anyway, I try the strategy with Man Utd (midfield: Fletcher, Hargreaves, Anderson), so I don't know if Xavi and Iniesta in FM can cope with high pressing system. But for zone press itself, I can't make the 3 forwards move back to the middle so I think it's only a pressing strategy.

That's really interesting, thinks for that! I didn't think of it that way, I guess you do only have to press when you don't have the ball I'll see how I can implement that into my Barca side, it is basically an adaptation of the 4-1-2-2-1, so it should be possible. Only problem is the opposition right back will always be an out ball for them, as the ML plays quite far from him. I guess with man marking that might draw him closer though

I've started using this midway through my first season with Man United and Park is the standout performer playing in the Iniesta/Keita role that you have mentioned you are struggling with!

Yeah it seems like the way I have it in the OP means the hard-working type of player works much better there rather than a more creative, technical player. I've made some changes that have improved Iniesta's performances, but the team seems to be suffering for it at the moment. I'll keep trying with it though, I'm sure I can come up with something

Not a bad start with this formation quite pleased with it! Less long shots and more possession and CCCs but apart from that pretty incredible in my opinion.

Watching El Clasico at the moment, what the hell are Barca playing. Maxwell Pique and Militio at the back, Dalves and Puyol down the right and Puyol everywhere. No one up front. I cant even describe it!

I don't know what the hell they were playing tonight but it worked. Maxwell was upfront for a few minutes as well, Alves at AMR at first then RB. Puyol played everywhere just about, mad lol.

Sounds like I missed a cracker! Damn university house not having Sky Sports

I'm going to try your tactic with SnakeXe with Liverpool then continue trying my own one with Barca and Pool.

Sounds good, I take it you'll use Gerrard in the Messi role, Kuyt as Pedro, Masch for Busquets, but who will you pick for the Xavi and Iniesta/Keita roles?

[Rich...]

Xabi Alonso?

Oh...

[Cardiovascular]

This is my line-up against Birmingham (first time using the tactic.) Bare in mind I'm in 2011 so things will have changed.

GK - Delac (Reina injured)

DR - Johnson

DL - Insua

DC - Agger (BP defender)

DC - Skrtel

ML - Criscito (experimenting - could be Maxi or Afellay)

MC - Gerrard

AMR - Capel

AMC - Ribery

ST - Dalla Valle (Torres unfit)

[savagepenguin]

Man marking is a good idea actually, I hadn't thought of that. Barcelona make the pitch seem very small because they're right on top of the opposition as soon as they win the ball, which I haven't managed to do with any combination of closing down instructions, but adding man/tight marking into the mix might help

Roaming is actually the key to getting this to work. With your attackers allowed the freedom to roam the pitch, coupled with high closing down, they'll always been in areas to press the opposition. I'm not at home atm unfortunately, so I can't upload a PKM that exemplifies this, nor can I double check to see what the other essential settings are. It's something to bear in mind though.

P.s. this was used by me with a 4-1-4-1 formation utilising wingers, so I can't gauruntee it'll work for other formations exactly how it worked for me.

[batata169]

Actually I'm in the middle of developing zone press with 4-1-2-2-1, so far so good.

1) You can use closing down whole pitch + man marking + tight for everyone except you 4 defenders.

2) Push-up defensive line, wide width, focus passing down both flanks, counter attack, offside trap.

2) The stamina problem that drains so fast is not an important thing because when you press you opponent you will get the ball quickly, which is the main aim to play possession football.

Anyway, I try the strategy with Man Utd (midfield: Fletcher, Hargreaves, Anderson), so I don't know if Xavi and Iniesta in FM can cope with high pressing system. But for zone press itself, I can't make the 3 forwards move back to the middle so I think it's only a pressing strategy.

Ok, can you tell me what closing down do you have on your full-backs ?

[SnakeXe]

This is my line-up against Birmingham (first time using the tactic.) Bare in mind I'm in 2011 so things will have changed.

GK - Delac (Reina injured)

DR - Johnson

DL - Insua

DC - Agger (BP defender)

DC - Skrtel

ML - Criscito (experimenting - could be Maxi or Afellay)

MC - Gerrard

AMR - Capel

AMC - Ribery

ST - Dalla Valle (Torres unfit)

It'll work slightly differently for you in that case, as having Pedro right footed and Messi left footed naturally creates a little more space between them, whereas you have Ribery who is right footed and Capel who is left footed, so they'll naturally drift together.

You could mirror the formation, have Criscito at LB in the Alves role if it's not working well as is

Roaming is actually the key to getting this to work. With your attackers allowed the freedom to roam the pitch, coupled with high closing down, they'll always been in areas to press the opposition. I'm not at home atm unfortunately, so I can't upload a PKM that exemplifies this, nor can I double check to see what the other essential settings are. It's something to bear in mind though.

P.s. this was used by me with a 4-1-4-1 formation utilising wingers, so I can't gauruntee it'll work for other formations exactly how it worked for me.

That's very interesting, I hadn't thought of that! Perhaps if I allow Iniesta, Messi and Ibra to roam (as Pedro will be tight on his fullback due to his position anyway)? Definitely some food for thought

[savagepenguin]

That's very interesting, I hadn't thought of that! Perhaps if I allow Iniesta, Messi and Ibra to roam (as Pedro will be tight on his fullback due to his position anyway)? Definitely some food for thought

I tended to find that without roaming, my right am/r wouldn't press the central players as much as I wanted him to. However, as stated earlier, my formation at the time was different to yours, so you may be right in what you say about pedro (no to mention it looks as if you want to avoid roaming with him). Though if you do decide you need him roaming in order to accomplish the desired closing down, you should be fine for width with dani alves supporting on that side (pedro tends to tuck in anyway from what I've seen).