Ditch the "mentality" slider altogether.

[RT--]

Would you be happier with just a team mentality option, Rupal? Or do you think that individual instructions are enough in themselves?

[Bigwig]

But surely the tactical system should allow you to set up your players to play as you want them and if that causes a problem then it’s up to you to notice that.

Say I want to deploy a Pirlo type DMC who will sit in front of the back four and spray long diagonal passes out to the wide men. In order to get him to sit I’ve set him to play on a defensive mentality, lowered forward runs but in order to get him to play attacking I’ve set his passing to direct and asked him to try through balls often.

However, due to his defensive mentality his attempted through balls will be limited because of the risk / reward ratio to his mentality, which I don’t want. If I tell him to try through balls often then that’s what I expect him to do, not only try them when he sees the risk worth taking.

If he tries 10 through balls and they all either go out of play or are mopped up by the defenders then that’s fair enough, but it’s my call to make and my responsibility to do something about it, whereas the current system is saying I can either do one or the other, but not both.

[Rupal]

Would you be happier with just a team mentality option, Rupal? Or do you think that individual instructions are enough in themselves?

I would like to see the current mentality slider replaced by a straightforward way of enabling me to instruct players to sit a little deeper or further up or narrower or wider without altering their passing, etc.

Whether a separate individual mentality slider is also needed is very debatable IMO. As I've said previously, I think that most of the ways in which a player's more or less 'risk taking' attitude actually shows itself are adjustable by sliders anyway. The current arrangement means that I have to make my player less likely to take risks if I want him to play a bit deeper, which may conflict with other things, like Bigwig pointed out.

Quite honestly, I think the individual mentality slider as it currently exists causes confusion without having many compensating advantages. It adds a further, rather nebulous complication to what is already a pretty complicated situation. The overall outlook of players (ie how attacking or defensively minded they are) is already covered by the team mentality slider and I doubt that more is needed. In practice, I reckon that most people are more concerned with avoiding the negative effects which the individual slider may have (ie making sure that there aren't any 'gaps') rather than seeing huge positive virtues in (for example) being able to tell your DC to be 1 notch more averse to risk taking than before.

A lot of us tend to ape what we read in the TT&F without really understanding it and the individual mentality slider contributes substantially to this IMO.

[Rupal]

Because the next complaint when this is removed is "why is my winger bombing up the wing and putting in crosses when the cross isn't on and he should be covering my full back".

To which you can counter "ok, reduce FWR and crossing", but then you're not putting in as many crosses or FWRs as before. Which means either you increase the amount of crossing options, or you increase the amount of crossing options.

Mentality does all that for you. Players who are defensively minded take fewer risks - that's part of being defensive, along with playing further back and being more alert for stopping the opposition rather than going forward looking for goals.

I'm sorry, but we're reaching a point here where we can't go any further. If you think risk should not be related to mentality and related to the way a player plays, then we have completely different views of the ME and of football and there's little point in us going on.

I'm sorry but if you want your winger to cover back you should reduce his forward runs (not necessarily his crossing - just let him cross from deep). It's surely elementary that he can't be in two places at once? How can he possibly be defending while he is bombing forward? So it's totally unnecessary to introduce the notion of risk taking or mentality at all, here. Does it make sense to say that you should affect his propensity for making forward runs not by using the forward runs slider but by using a different one? Whatever for? On this analysis what is the point of having a forward runs slider at all?

I increasingly (and most reluctantly) am coming to the conclusion that what I said jocularly earlier is actually correct. People like this mentality slider because it enables them to put together over complicated tactical frameworks which would otherwise be unnecessary.

[Millie]

But surely the tactical system should allow you to set up your players to play as you want them and if that causes a problem then it’s up to you to notice that.

Say I want to deploy a Pirlo type DMC who will sit in front of the back four and spray long diagonal passes out to the wide men. In order to get him to sit I’ve set him to play on a defensive mentality, lowered forward runs but in order to get him to play attacking I’ve set his passing to direct and asked him to try through balls often.

However, due to his defensive mentality his attempted through balls will be limited because of the risk / reward ratio to his mentality, which I don’t want. If I tell him to try through balls often then that’s what I expect him to do, not only try them when he sees the risk worth taking.

If he tries 10 through balls and they all either go out of play or are mopped up by the defenders then that’s fair enough, but it’s my call to make and my responsibility to do something about it, whereas the current system is saying I can either do one or the other, but not both.

But if you've already got him on rarely FWR, rarely RWB, with all of those other settings, there's no need to have him on that low a mentality. As we've already said, mentality will have an effect on positioning, when taken into account with all the other instructions. He should sit in front of the back 4 if you've told him not to run forward.

Combined with the other central midfielders having more FWRs than him and more mentality than him, that should be more than enough to get a deep-lying playmaker to work effectively in the game.

[josha007]

Rupal. Instead of constantly moaning and complaning about everything in this game, why don't you test out things in a match? Play one match over and over again trying different things. Give your midfielders a higher mentality with no FWR's, and then vice versa. Or giving one a lot more creative freedom than the other.

Just try things and work them out for yourself instead of writing 31 page essays slating everyone else. This game is not meant to be easy, it's a management game, it takes time and thought to get it right.

[Millie]

I'm sorry but if you want your winger to cover back you should reduce his forward runs (not necessarily his crossing - just let him cross from deep). It's surely elementary that he can't be in two places at once? How can he possibly be defending while he is bombing forward? So it's totally unnecessary to introduce the notion of risk taking or mentality at all, here. Does it make sense to say that you should affect his propensity for making forward runs not by using the forward runs slider but by using a different one? Whatever for? On this analysis what is the point of having a forward runs slider at all?

I increasingly (and most reluctantly) am coming to the conclusion that what I said jocularly earlier is actually correct. People like this mentality slider because it enables them to put together over complicated tactical frameworks which would otherwise be unnecessary.

I'm trying not to get angry here. I do not support the mentality slider because it's complicated and I get some sort of thrill by watching people suffer. If I did, what would be the point in me working with SI to get a new tactical system in place in FML and possibly in FM10? I have even agreed with the problems in the system, but tried to explain why it is there.

I will try one more time, but I would appreciate not being insulted for trying to help people (and hence the reason why I don't frequent these forums as often as I used to).

Risk taking is part of being defensive or being attacking. To be defensive you take fewer "risks" by:

- playing deeper to cover key areas

- not running forward as often as usual

- not playing risky balls which could be intercepted in key areas

- not holding on to the ball in risky areas

- playing more attention to the movement of the opposition rather than using your own movement to unlock them

And the opposite is then true of attacking players, naturally.

A player CANNOT stay back, positionally, AND run forward as much as they would do if they were attacking. It makes no sense. By your own admission, a player cannot be in more than one place at any one time. And, further, attacking players will necessarily be looking to run into channels and bomb forward at every available opportunity. This is what mentality does.

If mentality lost this element (which would, as I've said, require a major ME overhaul and probably four or five instructions where one currently does the job), then forward runs would need far more options than "rarely", "sometimes", "often". The individual manager would have to probably pick from a dozen different degrees of forward runs in order to get the desired affect. And that adds far more complication.

I pre-empted this in my last post: "I'm sorry but if you want your winger to cover back you should reduce his forward runs (not necessarily his crossing - just let him cross from deep)." And I also said that the current FWR system would not allow you to do that. Again, you'd need far more options. Why bother with this when mentality can mediate it for you.

I will perfectly accept that mentality could be split to allow this to happen. And I perfectly accept that there are weaknesses (as well as strengths) in the current system. That's why we're trying to if not change it then at least make it accessable in plain English.

That's my position. It's not based on arrogance or blindly following SI or being a "fanboy". In fact, this new system we're trying to develop will make wwfan and I completely redundant. Our theories will be in the game and we will no longer be able to come on these forums as some "shining knights" to save people from the overly complicated system we love so much. If we were really that ego driven, do you really think we'd be trying to do that?

I can totally understand how someone can disagree with another point of view, but to completely dismiss it with insults is incredibly unhelpful. I think I've been willing to concede ground on a lot of the issues raised, as have SI, but some seem unwilling to do the same.

[Rupal]

I simply fail to understand why you would require a greatly increased number of FWR settings to do what is required. If you want your player to cover back, you put him onto FWR rarely. Where is the need for further adjustment? And if the FWR is such a crude instrument as you make out what on earth is the point of having it in at all if your beloved mentality slider does the same thing with infinitely more variability?

Of course in a real match a player can start forward runs from a deep position. To deny this is simply nonsensical, which is what your fifth paragraph appears to imply. He can start as many forward runs as ever, he will merely be starting them from a different position. Or are you suggesting that a fullback can't make more forward runs than a defensive midfielder?

You have to address the fact that the game has provided a number of specific sliders to enable the manager to adjust such things as forward runs, etc. The 'mentality' slider is a vague general one which covers a fair number of adjustments in a non-specific way as opposed to a single adjustment in a specific way. As such, I still fail to see what it adds which is of any significant value. And its presence in its current form prevents managers from doing various things which they want to do. I have given examples of this and so has Bigwig.

Your loyalty to this particular slider seems to me to be misplaced. And I was suggesting that you may have a love of complexity which causes this. That was not in any way intended as an insult and if you take it as such I can only apologise.

This thread is about whether it would be a good idea to ditch the thing in its present form. I say that it would.

[Rupal]

Rupal. Instead of constantly moaning and complaning about everything in this game, why don't you test out things in a match? Play one match over and over again trying different things. Give your midfielders a higher mentality with no FWR's, and then vice versa. Or giving one a lot more creative freedom than the other.

Just try things and work them out for yourself instead of writing 31 page essays slating everyone else. This game is not meant to be easy, it's a management game, it takes time and thought to get it right.

Look at the title of the thread.

It's a simple enough thing to read.

It's about whether the mentality slider should be ditched. I'm suggesting that it should be and I've given some reasons why. So have other people.

What on earth the connection is between that and carrying out loads of replays is totally beyond my understanding.

[josha007]

The title of the thread is not actually saying WHETHER the mentality should be ditched, it's STATING it should be ditched.

You keep on complaining Rupal, it's going to get you absolutely nowhere. Millie and wwfan have given some top advice on here. They make it clear and concise and it's very easy to follow. You are making to out ot be much more difficult then it actually is.

[Millie]

Of course in a real match a player can start forward runs from a deep position. To deny this is simply nonsensical, which is what your fifth paragraph appears to imply. He can start as many forward runs as ever, he will merely be starting them from a different position.

Nope. What I'm saying is, if a player starts deep, andf then runs forward he is further up the field. The team then lose the ball and he tracks back, but unless he's Billy Whizz and has the stamina of Sting in bed he's not going to be in that further back position for very much of the game. Hence, mentality has to have an affect on forward runs, which in turn affects position. For this reason, as wwfan and I have said, mentality will affect position.

Therefore, it makes tactical sense for a player with forward runs to make them slightly less often when in defensive mood.

Now, I agree, a positional and a risk taking slider as separare entities (or even, more control on where to actually place players on the "chalk board") may well be a good idea. But, then we see this:

I have no desire to insult you. But your loyalty to this particular slider seems to me to be misplaced.

I will perfectly accept that mentality could be split to allow this to happen. And I perfectly accept that there are weaknesses (as well as strengths) in the current system. That's why we're trying to if not change it then at least make it accessable in plain English.

And I think I'm going to bow out. Where's the "beloved" here? I'm saying it's flawed, I'm saying we could change it and work on it. I'm saying it isn't perfect, but I'm trying to explain how it works and why we can still use it in the interim until a better system emerges.

This has reached an impasse. I'm happy to continue reading this thread, but I think it will just keep going round in circles if I continue posting.

[Rupal]

This has reached an impasse. I'm happy to continue reading this thread, but I think it will just keep going round in circles if I continue posting.

You conveniently forget that if his forward runs start from deeper they are also likely to end up finishing further away from the opposition byline when he is tackled, for example or when his team lose the ball. So the total amount of ground covered may remain much the same.

Well, this situation is unfortunate. If you re-read my post you will see that I edited it to try to make myself clearer and maybe you will not find it so objectionable as you did before. As you say, however, an impasse may have been reached, as you appear to be convinced that the notion of mentality as it is used currently in FM is an essential integral part of the tactical setup and I am equally convinced that it is an unnecessary and restrictive over complication. I doubt if any words of mine will persuade you and no doubt the same applies to me as well.

[Rupal]

The title of the thread is not actually saying WHETHER the mentality should be ditched, it's STATING it should be ditched.

You keep on complaining Rupal, it's going to get you absolutely nowhere. Millie and wwfan have given some top advice on here. They make it clear and concise and it's very easy to follow. You are making to out ot be much more difficult then it actually is.

I am not making anything out to be 'much more difficult'.

I am saying that the current mentality slider is an unnecessary over complication. That isn't the same thing at all.

Millie and wwfan have indeed given some top advice about how to use the current system. Unfortunately, it's precisely that system (or the mentality slider anyway) which this thread is calling into question. If all that anybody is supposed to do is to agree with Millie and wwfan and say that the slider is great, then we might as well all pack up and go home.

[tomescan]

I'm trying not to get angry here. I do not support the mentality slider because it's complicated and I get some sort of thrill by watching people suffer. If I did, what would be the point in me working with SI to get a new tactical system in place in FML and possibly in FM10? I have even agreed with the problems in the system, but tried to explain why it is there.

I will try one more time, but I would appreciate not being insulted for trying to help people (and hence the reason why I don't frequent these forums as often as I used to).

Risk taking is part of being defensive or being attacking. To be defensive you take fewer "risks" by:

- playing deeper to cover key areas

- not running forward as often as usual

- not playing risky balls which could be intercepted in key areas

- not holding on to the ball in risky areas

- playing more attention to the movement of the opposition rather than using your own movement to unlock them

And the opposite is then true of attacking players, naturally.

A player CANNOT stay back, positionally, AND run forward as much as they would do if they were attacking. It makes no sense. By your own admission, a player cannot be in more than one place at any one time. And, further, attacking players will necessarily be looking to run into channels and bomb forward at every available opportunity. This is what mentality does.

If mentality lost this element (which would, as I've said, require a major ME overhaul and probably four or five instructions where one currently does the job), then forward runs would need far more options than "rarely", "sometimes", "often". The individual manager would have to probably pick from a dozen different degrees of forward runs in order to get the desired affect. And that adds far more complication.

I pre-empted this in my last post: "I'm sorry but if you want your winger to cover back you should reduce his forward runs (not necessarily his crossing - just let him cross from deep)." And I also said that the current FWR system would not allow you to do that. Again, you'd need far more options. Why bother with this when mentality can mediate it for you.

I will perfectly accept that mentality could be split to allow this to happen. And I perfectly accept that there are weaknesses (as well as strengths) in the current system. That's why we're trying to if not change it then at least make it accessable in plain English.

That's my position. It's not based on arrogance or blindly following SI or being a "fanboy". In fact, this new system we're trying to develop will make wwfan and I completely redundant. Our theories will be in the game and we will no longer be able to come on these forums as some "shining knights" to save people from the overly complicated system we love so much. If we were really that ego driven, do you really think we'd be trying to do that?

I can totally understand how someone can disagree with another point of view, but to completely dismiss it with insults is incredibly unhelpful. I think I've been willing to concede ground on a lot of the issues raised, as have SI, but some seem unwilling to do the same.

Millie, I've found your points here quite useful and even after reading TT&F, I think a penny may have dropped here. Considering your above points, can I try and figure out something here and could you confirm if I'm right:

Example 1:

If I wanted to play my defender in an attacking version of the TT&F in an attacking role, but this player has poor attributes overall in terms of dribbling, crossing etc, could I

a) put these onto rarely

and

b) still put his mentality on attacking whereby he would still be in a relatively attacking position during the match but not give the ball away cheaply because of poor attributes.

Example 2:

If I wanted to make my amc more conservative in an attacking version, could I do this in either of these 2 ways:

a) by reducing his mentality by a couple of notches

or

b) by reducing his FWR and putting his cross ball from a deeper position

Regards, tomescan.

[josha007]

Millie, I've found your points here quite useful and even after reading TT&F, I think a penny may have dropped here. Considering your above points, can I try and figure out something here and could you confirm if I'm right:

Example 1:

If I wanted to play my defender in an attacking version of the TT&F in an attacking role, but this player has poor attributes overall in terms of dribbling, crossing etc, could I

a) put these onto rarely

and

b) still put his mentality on attacking whereby he would still be in a relatively attacking position during the match but not give the ball away cheaply because of poor attributes.

Example 2:

If I wanted to make my amc more conservative in an attacking version, could I do this in either of these 2 ways:

a) by reducing his mentality by a couple of notches

or

b) by reducing his FWR and putting his cross ball from a deeper position

Regards, tomescan.

With regards to the AMC, if you want to make him a deep lying playmaker, give him a more defensive mentality, but maybe with FWR often. This will mean he will sit a little deeper but make late runs into the box. But he will be available for a pass in the build up. He won't bomb forward all the time because his mentality is reduced. Maybe give him long shots often too as he will be outside the box most of the time.

I think thats right anyway. Maybe Millie or wwfan could verify that

[Rupal]

With regards to the AMC, if you want to make him a deep lying playmaker, give him a more defensive mentality, but maybe with FWR often. This will mean he will sit a little deeper but make late runs into the box. But he will be available for a pass in the build up. He won't bomb forward all the time because his mentality is reduced. Maybe give him long shots often too as he will be outside the box most of the time.

I think thats right anyway. Maybe Millie or wwfan could verify that

But he will also be less likely to look for the possible killing but potentially risky pass because of this more defensive mentality, which is the possible downside.

[josha007]

No!!You still don't get it Rupal.

If you want your AMC to try that killer ball a little more often then you up his Creative Freedom. Or if you want him to try more killer balls then you may have to drop his mentality even more. It will mean he will drop into space, which in turn will give him more time on the ball, which then will mean he can pick out a killer pass. You could also try to put his passing to something more direct as it will encourage him to pass forward more.It's really not difficult if you take a few minutes to think about it. Obviously the player has to have certain stats to do it successfully, but even players with weaker stats will still try it. Give it a go Rupal and you'll see.

[tomescan]

Cheers for the replies so far guys.

Josha007: you seem to have a very good grip on how things work. Can I ask you have you had much success in the game?

And does my attempt at making a point still exist: that you can make a player defensive in two separate ways:

a) lowering mentality

or separately by

b) lowering his fwr, rwb and make him cross from deeper

Regards oncemore,

tomescan.

[Rupal]

Well, Millie said that if you make his mentality more defensive it makes him less willing to take risks. I quote 'not playing risky balls which could be intercepted in key areas'

That seems clear enough to me.

No mention of creative freedom there. I suppose you have to increase his creative freedom in order to compensate for his smaller propensity to find killer balls because he is more defensive. Only that will also surely make him go forward more, which you don't want because you want him to be lying deeper. So you will have to cut his forward runs down but you only have three possible choices there....

Do you NOW begin to see what I mean about the whole thing being over complicated? You can't just tell him to lie deeper - you affect all sorts of other things as soon as you try!

Edit: what exactly does 'creative freedom' do anyway? Does it give the player more licence to use his own initiative rather than follow manager instructions? If so, wouldn't that mean that his 'mentality' would have a greater influence than ever, ie that because he was more defensively orientated he would be actually less likely to find killer balls the more creative freedom he had? If creative freedom doesn't mean this then what does it mean exactly?

[josha007]

Well, Millie said that if you make his mentality more defensive it makes him less willing to take risks. I quote 'not playing risky balls which could be intercepted in key areas'

That seems clear enough to me.

No mention of creative freedom there. I suppose you have to increase his creative freedom in order to compensate for his smaller propensity to find killer balls because he is more defensive. Only that will also surely make him go forward more, which you don't want because you want him to be lying deeper. So you will have to cut his forward runs down but you only have three possible choices there....

Do you NOW begin to see what I mean about the whole thing being over complicated? You can't just tell him to lie deeper - you affect all sorts of other things as soon as you try!

But thats the thing Rupal, its not over complicated if you just work it out for five minutes. You have at last said a sentence which makes sense... " I suppose you have to increase his creative freedom in order to compensate for his smaller propensity to find killer balls because he is more defensive." Hoorah!

Yes!You do have to slghtly change other sliders in order to get the player playing how you want him. If it was as easy as using the same tactic in every single game, then it would be too easy and everyone would be saying that it was a waste of £30. The fact that he is more defensive just means that he won't get into the box as quickly as other players on a higher mentality. Almost see the mentality slider as a gauge of aggressiveness. If he is more defensive he will hold back a little more and look for that pass because he has more time. You look at the way Paul Scholes plays at the moment. He drops deep in the centre of the park and pings balls all over the place. You can setup your MC as this by giving him a more defensive mentality then your other MC, but with a higher creative freedom and more direct passing.

Imagine or watch a game and just see how the players are playing and try to put that into the game.

[SFraser]

Cheers for the replies so far guys.

Josha007: you seem to have a very good grip on how things work. Can I ask you have you had much success in the game?

And does my attempt at making a point still exist: that you can make a player defensive in two separate ways:

a) lowering mentality

or separately by

b) lowering his fwr, rwb and make him cross from deeper

Regards oncemore,

tomescan.

Exactly.

a) will see the player making more conservative choices from higher up the pitch in attack.

b) will see the player making more aggressive choices from further down the pitch in attack.

The same principle goes for when you are defending, but with defensive choices and positioning in mind.

Maybe there is some merit to this thread if we ignore the claims to "ditch the mentality slider" and look at providing instructions for defence and instructions for attack as two sides of the same coin which currently is being presented as a single system. I can agree with the idea that tactics for defence and attack could be seperated into two systems.

[josha007]

Cheers for the replies so far guys.

Josha007: you seem to have a very good grip on how things work. Can I ask you have you had much success in the game?

And does my attempt at making a point still exist: that you can make a player defensive in two separate ways:

a) lowering mentality

or separately by

b) lowering his fwr, rwb and make him cross from deeper

Regards oncemore,

tomescan.

Well only recently I've been able to grasp the 9.03 patch. It's been a struggle but if you keep the basic foundation then you can work around it.

Yes thats right you can either lower his mentality which will keep him a little deeper and make later runs forward. Or lower his FWR and make him cross from deeper. If you wanted to play a counter attacking system, then fullbacks with the second settings would work well.Maybe with TTB often on too as they would put balls over the top for your fast striker to run onto.

[Rupal]

But thats the thing Rupal, its not over complicated if you just work it out for five minutes. You have at last said a sentence which makes sense... " I suppose you have to increase his creative freedom in order to compensate for his smaller propensity to find killer balls because he is more defensive." Hoorah!

Yes!You do have to slghtly change other sliders in order to get the player playing how you want him. If it was as easy as using the same tactic in every single game, then it would be too easy and everyone would be saying that it was a waste of £30. The fact that he is more defensive just means that he won't get into the box as quickly as other players on a higher mentality. Almost see the mentality slider as a gauge of aggressiveness. If he is more defensive he will hold back a little more and look for that pass because he has more time. You look at the way Paul Scholes plays at the moment. He drops deep in the centre of the park and pings balls all over the place. You can setup your MC as this by giving him a more defensive mentality then your other MC, but with a higher creative freedom and more direct passing.

Imagine or watch a game and just see how the players are playing and try to put that into the game.

But what you are saying here is not what Millie is saying. He said perfectly clearly that a defensive mentality meant that the player was less likely to make a risky pass. Nothing about holding back or anything else. Less likely!

As I said in the edit to my previous post, where does it say that 'creative freedom' means that he will look for more killer passes? As far as I can see, this is entirely an assumption on your part.

[josha007]

Yes but he also said that other sliders affect mentality too. Instead of replying on here all the time, why don't you give a few things a go? Tweak the mentality here and there, see what more creative freedom does to a player. You'll find out more answers by trying it yourself then asking lots of questions.

[tomescan]

SFraser, Josha007, Millie and Rupal: Big thanks. I've just had an "I see the matrix" moment.

With this and the new stuff I'm learning about training, my game is improving all the time.

Cheers guys.

[Bigwig]

I did some extensive testing a while back with mentalities and came up with the following conclusion…

When you lower the mentality slider (to the left of centre), then players will take up a more defensive position when the opposition are in possession. When your own side are in possession they will revert to their normal position.

When you raise the mentality slider (to the right of centre) then players will take up a more advance position when your side are in possession. When the opposition are in possession they will revert to their normal position.

I never saw my own players dropping deep when my own team were in possession, or pushing up when the opposition were in possession as it seemed that their mentality would only come into effect depending on which team was in possession and what side of the slider their mentality was set.

[Rupal]

Yes but he also said that other sliders affect mentality too. Instead of replying on here all the time, why don't you give a few things a go? Tweak the mentality here and there, see what more creative freedom does to a player. You'll find out more answers by trying it yourself then asking lots of questions.

Why don't you have the honesty to admit that you don't really know what the creative freedom slider does?

You've just assumed that it makes a player more attack minded for some reason or other.

The only reason you've done that is that you are unwilling to admit that there has to be a trade off between the different effects of the mentality slider. The plain fact is that you can't instruct your player to sit as a deep lying playmaker and have the same ability to provide killer passes as he would do with a more aggressive mentality. You should be able to do such a thing but you can't. That is because the mentality slider combines position and risk/safety mind set in a way which means that you cannot change one without changing the other.

[Rupal]

I did some extensive testing a while back with mentalities and came up with the following conclusion…

When you lower the mentality slider (to the left of centre), then players will take up a more defensive position when the opposition are in possession. When your own side are in possession they will revert to their normal position.

When you raise the mentality slider (to the right of centre) then players will take up a more advance position when your side are in possession. When the opposition are in possession they will revert to their normal position.

I never saw my own players dropping deep when my own team were in possession, or pushing up when the opposition were in possession as it seemed that their mentality would only come into effect depending on which team was in possession and what side of the slider their mentality was set.

Now that's an interesting observation about how the slider affects position. It suggests that you can't make your AMC into a deep lying playmaker simply by altering his mentality slider to the left if I understand you correctly here.

[Crpls]

If you want a deep-lying playmaker, why are you playing him in an AM position in the first place?

[tomescan]

If you want a deep-lying playmaker, why are you playing him in an AM position in the first place?

It was merely a hypothetical example, I just wanted to see if something in my head had clicked.

[digsy11]

Deep lying play maker in an AM position?

A deep lying play maker would be someone like Pirlo who generally plays in front of the back 4.

[josha007]

Why don't you have the honesty to admit that you don't really know what the creative freedom slider does?

You've just assumed that it makes a player more attack minded for some reason or other.

The only reason you've done that is that you are unwilling to admit that there has to be a trade off between the different effects of the mentality slider. The plain fact is that you can't instruct your player to sit as a deep lying playmaker and have the same ability to provide killer passes as he would do with a more aggressive mentality. You should be able to do such a thing but you can't. That is because the mentality slider combines position and risk/safety mind set in a way which means that you cannot change one without changing the other.

You are way beyond help now Rupal. People on here have given you advice, told you how to use mentality to your advantage, yet still you harper on absolutely clueless. No one now will listen to you and give you advice, I for one will be one of them. There is plenty of help on these forums about creative freedom, and for me is the easiest slider to cope with on FM. Stop being so pathetic and play the game yourself and maybe you'll shock yourself!

[Bigwig]

The problem with using the creative freedom slider is that it affects all of the other instructions so you can’t just give a player more creative freedom in the hope he will try more through balls while not wanting him to apply the same freedom to his other instructions.

If a player is on a defensive mentality and set to try through balls often, then he won’t try as many because of the risk / reward link to mentality, so if you up his creative freedom to increase the frequency of attempted through balls then you’re also increasing the frequency of crossing, long shots etc. which may not be what you’re after.

[Rupal]

You are way beyond help now Rupal. People on here have given you advice, told you how to use mentality to your advantage, yet still you harper on absolutely clueless. No one now will listen to you and give you advice, I for one will be one of them. There is plenty of help on these forums about creative freedom, and for me is the easiest slider to cope with on FM. Stop being so pathetic and play the game yourself and maybe you'll shock yourself!

Look at Bigwig's last post which is more or less saying exactly what I've been saying. Now explain it to him (as I'm way beyond help).

Raising a player's creative freedom will make him more likely to do the unpredictable according to the game manual. It's a hell of a leap from there to saying that it will make him try more killer balls. If he does try more of them he is also going to try a number of other things which you may not want him to do, as Bigwig rightly points out.

It just isn't as easy as dropping his mentality back, raising his creative freedom and that sorting it out. Life ain't that simple.

Doesn't it strike you as at all odd that you are recommending lowering one slider which makes your player act more cautiously and then raising another which makes him act less cautiously?

[PaulC]

Without wanting to get too deeply into this thread again, I should probably point out that Creative Freedom is simply a modifier on flair.

And flair generally increases the chances of a player taking the "exciting" option.

[Crpls]

You are way beyond help now Rupal. People on here have given you advice, told you how to use mentality to your advantage, yet still you harper on absolutely clueless. No one now will listen to you and give you advice, I for one will be one of them. There is plenty of help on these forums about creative freedom, and for me is the easiest slider to cope with on FM. Stop being so pathetic and play the game yourself and maybe you'll shock yourself!

You could tell her Earth was the third planet from the sun, and she'd argue it wasn't.

[Rupal]

Well done, my astronomical genius .

[digsy11]

Life ain't that simple? Blimey, I thought this thread was about FM.

[Rupal]

Without wanting to get too deeply into this thread again, I should probably point out that Creative Freedom is simply a modifier on flair.

And flair generally increases the chances of a player taking the "exciting" option.

What he decides to do is also linked to the quality of his decision making I suppose Paul?

I take it that's why the manual recommends that bad players shouldn't be given too much creative freedom? Like me, they will tend to do the wrong thing all the time.

[leedsforever]

I think the whole tactical system is useless this year. It is just isn't viable for the casual gamer and even those that study the match engine, theories and guides fail to make a solid tactic based on logic.

[PaulC]

To a point yes.

SFraser hit on something earlier, perhaps this thread perhaps another when he said that the game is attempting to give you "influence" as opposed to "control" over your team. The players arent robots, and the tactical tools arent completely black and white. That is the challenge.

Is it perfect? No, and it never will be. In recent weeks and months some of the constructive feedback on these forums has given us plenty to chew on in terms of what we can do to make it better.

Cheers,

Paul

[josha007]

I think the whole tactical system is useless this year. It is just isn't viable for the casual gamer and even those that study the match engine, theories and guides fail to make a solid tactic based on logic.

Unfortunately that is true for this version. The casual gamer can't really just play a quick 5 games and then leave it. It's a lot more detailed this year, and you almost have to take every game as it comes. Maybe SI are moving into a different area for management games

[Rupal]

In recent weeks and months some of the constructive feedback on these forums has given us plenty to chew on in terms of what we can do to make it better.

Cheers,

Paul

Now that's encouraging. The reason why people like me keep moaning on isn't always just for the sake of it, in spite of how it may seem. We actually want a better game to emerge. That would be good for us and good for SI, too (more sales! ). Money talks!

[Mitja]

No manager in the world has the fine control of his players' mind-sets which the 'mentality slider' provides. It is an utterly unrealistic concept. I don't understand how you, who obviously dislikes over prescriptive manager input, can possibly be happy with it.

very well Rupal. and not just mentality slider. none of 20 notches in any slider represent a true value - an understandable instruction. mentality is penetrating into area reserved for attributes. with each version it gets harder to distinguish between your tactical input and player ability. you can have Maradona with slightly wrong instructions and he'll be avarage. that's where the game's going wrong imo. with each attempt to improve tactics it gets complicated further, it just feels worse. i guess game develepers and gurus like Sfraser wouldn't agree with me, but with simplifiying (spliting mentality into more instructions for example) and with introduction of new understandable (player) instructions they'd make other aspects (and they're as important as tactics, sometimes even more) which influence a football match more important and obvious. and we would now why things are happening as they are.

[Mitja]

But if you've already got him on rarely FWR, rarely RWB, with all of those other settings, there's no need to have him on that low a mentality. As we've already said, mentality will have an effect on positioning, when taken into account with all the other instructions. He should sit in front of the back 4 if you've told him not to run forward.

Combined with the other central midfielders having more FWRs than him and more mentality than him, that should be more than enough to get a deep-lying playmaker to work effectively in the game.

some a liitle more sophisticated control of player movement is needed so badly (to put movement out of mentality eqation maybe?). FWR + mentality combination is not suficient. we can't have control over something as simple as time wasting with it's 20 notches but have 3 options for player movement?? it should be the other way around really..

[SFraser]

very well Rupal. and not just mentality slider. none of 20 notches in any slider represent a true value - an understandable instruction.

So it is just like training, player development, team-talks, scout reports, manager interaction with players and opponents, player and staff attributes. Every single one of these relies upon a 20 value attribute system where the attributes obviously mean something but the manager has to discover exactly what they mean. Every single aspect of FM is as "vague" as the mentality slider, except for few things like squad status and squad numbers. Nothing in Football Manager produces a completely understandable reaction unless you know your players, and that frankly is the entire point of the game.

mentality is penetrating into area reserved for attributes.

If you think that tactical instructions and attributes should be seperate then you are cleary playing the wrong game. Every part of this game "penetrates" attributes. It is a game of manager action and player reaction, where somewhere along the line you hopefully get those players to play good football and find the right mixture of inputs that results in something close to your desires.

with each version it gets harder to distinguish between your tactical input and player ability.

How does this not prove that SI are getting better and better at simulating real life football management? A truly astonishing statement that reinforces my claims that those that do not understand FM do not understand football.

you can have Maradona with slightly wrong instructions and he'll be avarage.

You could try giving him the ball and standing back and watching. It may help to get other players in your team to get forward and offer options. It is Maradona after all, you don't tell him to play. You hope he turns up in good conditions and decides to play.

[Mitja]

lol, so what is your point other than 'you don't understand this game and football in general and I do'?

[Crpls]

you can have Maradona with slightly wrong instructions and he'll be avarage.

If someone in FM had the attributes of Maradona and only had "slightly wrong instructions" he'd probably still do quite well, though maybe not as well as possible.

On the other hand, if you were to tell Maradona to play with low creativity, less RWB, etc. he probably would be "average" since that's not Maradona.

[Crpls]

lol, so what is your point other than 'you don't understand this game and football in general and I do'?

His point is that you keep claiming you're interested in real life tactics, but are in fact, ignoring the reality of football tactics with many of your claims.

[Mitja]

and how do i ignore the reality of football tactics with my claims?