How to improve Tackles Won???!

[RDF Tactics]

I've never done this before and this can be really cool in helping me, yourself and others (I'm planning on a video to be selfish haha).

So, I'm doing a mid-block 4-4-1-1 tactic. We're 1st. The results are fine but the data is making me upset.

I expect to be high with tackles won (at least %). As we know, tackles won is winning the ball and keeping possession. A tackle lost can be winning the ball but possession falling back to opposition.

I'm looking at how we can improve gaining possession after tackling. Making us a better team OTB.

We're excellent in defence, though. 2nd best with final third passes against per game. Most clean sheets and least shots faced.

[RDF Tactics]

This here is the problem I'm having 85% of the time. We win the ball but our players aren't close enough to each other when defending. No matter how close together I put my defence line and LOE. Attempted to use step up but no improvements. It seems to be the central players. They can win the ball but wide players aren't close enough to pick up possession

My RB has to be closer here IMO. He's nowhere near his opposition winger (the player close to the player who's just lost the ball). P.s, sorry for the large screenshots. Don't know how to do it any other way lol

 

Edited February 18 by RDF Tactics

[-Jef-]

What's your width whilst attacking?

 

edit- i  just saw that you're using Sanches as your BWM and his 64% is bringing the average down. He has (according to fminside, I don't have him scouted in my game) 11 tackling, 11 anticipation, 11 decisions, 9 positioning which is bad for a BWM, at least Serie A type player.Pellegrini is better defensively but still nowhere near good enough, imo, for a true defensive player. Baldanzi also has over a tackle a game but 50% tackle %.

 

All of this might due to your team being wide apart on both sides.

 

I would also try to compress the field defensively. Having the field as small as possible when defending is the ultimate goal to winning the ball quickly and effectively

Edited February 18 by -Jef-

[RDF Tactics]

10 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

What's your width whilst attacking?

 

edit- i  just saw that you're using Sanches as your BWM and his 64% is bringing the average down. He has (according to fminside, I don't have him scouted in my game) 11 tackling, 11 anticipation, 11 decisions, 9 positioning which is bad for a BWM, at least Serie A type player.Pellegrini is better defensively but still nowhere near good enough, imo, for a true defensive player. Baldanzi also has over a tackle a game but 50% tackle %.

 

All of this might due to your team being wide apart on both sides.

 

I would also try to compress the field defensively. Having the field as small as possible when defending is the ultimate goal to winning the ball quickly and effectively

Paredes is actually mostly the BWM, he was rested for the game I just played. Sanchez often plays RM.

Sanchez is like a filler - allows me to rotate for cup games etc. And Sanchez isn't losing tackles as in bad tackling. He's winning them. The issue then becomes other players not close enough to pick up the 2nd which then counts as a tackle lost. Pellegrini suffers from the same thing. Tackles but with the opposition close enough and our team spaced out, the ball tends to fall to them.

Initially, I had a mid-block with a very high LOE. I then dropped it because teams found a way to recycle possession and lob it over the top. But, since dropping it, my tackles won % has increased whilst tackles won has roughly kept the same around the average.

Oddly, I don't think this issue with high pressing (can kind of understand why. With everyone pressing, good chance the 2nd ball finds your player). But I've noticed when we drop into our shape, the spaces horizontally are too wide. They aren't narrow enough and don't shift over as a unit either.

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

Paredes is actually mostly the BWM, he was rested for the game I just played. Sanchez often plays RM.

Sanchez is like a filler - allows me to rotate for cup games etc. And Sanchez isn't losing tackles as in bad tackling. He's winning them. The issue then becomes other players not close enough to pick up the 2nd which then counts as a tackle lost. Pellegrini suffers from the same thing. Tackles but with the opposition close enough and our team spaced out, the ball tends to fall to them.

Initially, I had a mid-block with a very high LOE. I then dropped it because teams found a way to recycle possession and lob it over the top. But, since dropping it, my tackles won % has increased whilst tackles won has roughly kept the same around the average.

Oddly, I don't think this issue with high pressing (can kind of understand why. With everyone pressing, good chance the 2nd ball finds your player). But I've noticed when we drop into our shape, the spaces horizontally are too wide. They aren't narrow enough and don't shift over as a unit either.

So what's the width? It's very difficult to diagnosis if you don't post the tactic in full (TIs etc.), it becomes a bit of a guessing game  

I agree with @-Jef- sentiments that you'll want higher quality ball winners (mentals + physicals) if you want to win tackles. Specific attribute combinations are especially important in successful defensive approaches. Compressing the lines will help, vertically and horizontally, as will the step up more TI. 

The staggered front two of Dyabala and Lukaku don't adhere to your principles of being the hardest hitting side in the league. They're essentially two passengers (Lukaku is isolated and will run in behind as an AF and Dyabala offers you nothing out of possession). If the goal of the tactic is to create a strong tackling system, look to a Spanish style 4-4-2 where the strikers and midfielders can then collapse onto the central pressing box. IW(a) is another role you'll want to address if you're after a defensive first approach. Again, you'll need players capable of executing your style of play.

Edited February 19 by Cloud9

[RDF Tactics]

7 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

So what's the width? It's very difficult to diagnosis if you don't post the tactic in full (TIs etc.), it becomes a bit of a guessing game  

I agree with @-Jef- sentiments that you'll want higher quality ball winners (mentals + physicals) if you want to win tackles. Specific attribute combinations are especially important in successful defensive approaches. Compressing the lines will help, vertically and horizontally, as will the step up more TI. 

The staggered front two of Dyabala and Lukaku don't adhere to your principles of being the hardest hitting side in the league. They're essentially two passengers (Lukaku is isolated and will run in behind as an AF and Dyabala offers you nothing out of possession). If the goal of the tactic is to create a strong tackling system, look to a Spanish style 4-4-2 where the strikers and midfielders can then collapse onto the central pressing box. IW(a) is another role you'll want to address if you're after a defensive first approach. Again, you'll need players capable of executing your style of play.

I think you are missing the point in the post a little. The lines are compressed - we've used force-wide, step up, very high defence line. This doesn't make the LM and closer to the LCM and narrow.

the issue isn't that we don't make the tackles. We do. The system issue is the distance between the players. Regardless who I put in midfield. Put 20 tackling and everything, he'll initially win the ball but the ball will then fall to the opposition because the players are too far from each other.

So ignore the tackling for a moment (though its the point), the system when we're defending is the issue. They aren't in a narrow block (like the example below). They are spread out. So, LM is far from LCM. Regardless of who the Ball winner is, the LM and other players are too far away to collect the 2nd ball therefore counts as a tackle loss.

There's example in the comments above. Pellegrini wins the ball but players are far from the ball. My team simply don't defend narrow and compact like the image and guide play. Rather than forcing wide, my wide players are already wide.

Other screenshots are here where you can see where my wide players are defending. Then the space between wide players and central players. They aren't narrow and compact - this is the main issue with the tackling. Win the ball but players are far away.

[RDF Tactics]

8 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

So what's the width? It's very difficult to diagnosis if you don't post the tactic in full (TIs etc.), it becomes a bit of a guessing game  

I agree with @-Jef- sentiments that you'll want higher quality ball winners (mentals + physicals) if you want to win tackles. Specific attribute combinations are especially important in successful defensive approaches. Compressing the lines will help, vertically and horizontally, as will the step up more TI. 

The staggered front two of Dyabala and Lukaku don't adhere to your principles of being the hardest hitting side in the league. They're essentially two passengers (Lukaku is isolated and will run in behind as an AF and Dyabala offers you nothing out of possession). If the goal of the tactic is to create a strong tackling system, look to a Spanish style 4-4-2 where the strikers and midfielders can then collapse onto the central pressing box. IW(a) is another role you'll want to address if you're after a defensive first approach. Again, you'll need players capable of executing your style of play.

Even here. Ignore Spinazzola because actually, I feel Dybala/Parades are initially at fault here. Look at Angelino and look where his LCB is. The RB and RCB as well. They are narrow, as a unit, shifting over and looking to guide play.

In these examples, we're covering the whole field rather than covering the centre and leaving the space out wide. Naturally, can just use a narrow formation to achieve that.

What happened here was a pass to the Fiorentina player and he just ran unchallenged between the LB and LCB. But this should be narrow and compact, forcing wide. We've actually forced them centrally here. Getting this shape narrow and compact would certainly increase my tackles won as we can then pick up the 2nd ball.

Edited February 19 by RDF Tactics

[Fox-7-]

I think some elements are missing to allow us to give you suggestions regarding your problem.

-What mentality are you playing with? You already have a high pressing trigger, if you have Positive or Attacking set your defensive shape could easily be negatively affected by this

-Are you using man-marking or role-marking PIs on your wide players?

Or do you have OIs of marking or pressing on their wide players?

I'm using a 4411 with a DMs pair instead of CMs (set as SVa/DLPs or SVs/DMs depending on the opponents I'm facing) with Standard mentality, mid block with higher DL and standard pressing using Trap Outside TI, and the last time I checked the team stats I was 7th for tackles won (in a 12 team championship) but 1st for tackles won ratio.

Perhaps the fact of using CMs with a standard DL leaves too much space between the lines and many times when the opponent finds the player behind your CMs they are forced to run back and a tackle is less likely to happen, while with DMs they would find themselves to face opponents by being able to choose a better time to make the tackle with greater probability of success

Edited February 19 by Fox-7-

[Cloud9]

35 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

Even here. Ignore Spinazzola because actually, I feel Dybala/Parades are initially at fault here. Look at Angelino and look where his LCB is. The RB and RCB as well. They are narrow, as a unit, shifting over and looking to guide play.

In these examples, we're covering the whole field rather than covering the centre and leaving the space out wide. Naturally, can just use a narrow formation to achieve that.

What happened here was a pass to the Fiorentina player and he just ran unchallenged between the LB and LCB. But this should be narrow and compact, forcing wide. We've actually forced them centrally here. Getting this shape narrow and compact would certainly increase my tackles won as we can then pick up the 2nd ball.

It sounds like you're asking your player's to force the opposition wide, but not setting them up to do so. The opposition also have their own gameplan which they are trying to execute, you need to force them to play your game. 

The issue on the attributes is not the tackling that I'm discussing. It's that you're running a passenger front 2 w/a midfield 4 with very low mentals. Tackling itself as an attribute is usually not make or break to a defensive approach. What is pivotal to a functioning defensive unit are player's with good mentals such as Teamwork, Workrate, Concentration, Anticipation, and Positioning. Your four midfielder's have low mentals for the level you're playing at in those areas and that will mean they will struggle to pull off the tactical instructions you're asking of them as a functioning defensive unit (such as operating together to recover the ball).  

• PIs like mark tight can help funnel opposition areas into the pressing traps you're looking for, again you'll need player's with the mental attributes to reliably pull that off. 

This is compounded by the fact the front two are letting the opposition do whatever they want on the ball. A compact 4-4-2's forwards harry the opposition, either forcing them wide where you can press in the manner it sounds like you're interested in or the central box. Lukaku is capable of playing as a PF which would be a step in the right direction. I can't tell you for certain unless you post the actual tactic, but it looks like your players are 1. failing to follow your instructions 2. you're not setting them up to impact the opposition enough to change their play. 

[RDF Tactics]

11 minutes ago, Fox-7- said:

I think some elements are missing to allow us to give you suggestions regarding your problem.

-What mentality are you playing with? You already have a high pressing trigger, if you have Positive or Attacking set your defensive shape could easily be negatively affected by this

-Are you using man-marking or role-marking PIs on your wide players?

Or do you have OIs of marking or pressing on their wide players?

I'm using a 4411 with a DMs pair instead of CMs (set as SVa/DLPs or SVs/DMs depending on the opponents I'm facing) with Standard mentality, mid block with higher DL and standard pressing using Trap Outside TI, and the last time I checked the team stats I was 7th for tackles won (in a 12 team championship) but 1st for tackles won ratio.

Perhaps the fact of using CMs with a standard DL leaves too much space between the lines and many times when the opponent finds the player behind your CMs they are forced to run back and a tackle is less likely to happen, while with DMs they would find themselves to face opponents by being able to choose a better time to make the tackle with greater probability of success

This is where we are currently at. The main reason for not posting the full system was the constant tweaking to fix the "issue". 

I also have no issue with the tackles and tackles won % in the majority of the systems I use (I mostly go for more intense off-the-ball systems). Especially in 4-2-3-1s

I have no PIs and set no OIs (I've tried never tight marking wingers).

The main issue I have is the starting positions and just general defensive positions. My wingers mark the wide areas rather than being in the middle forcing play wide. My wide players fail to be compact regardless which is what I'm trying to achieve mostly. I like how it's set up, apart from where the wingers are choosing to defend which is what I want to be changed (if possible). 

In the FM screenshot, Spinazzola is looking to only defend the wide area. He's not pressing towards the ball, neither is he joining the midfield to guide play wide. He's gone to mark the wingback.

I will try DMs, though. I do wonder if having two players in the CM position naturally spreads out the midfield 4?

[RDF Tactics]

11 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

It sounds like you're asking your player's to force the opposition wide, but not setting them up to do so. The opposition also have their own gameplan which they are trying to execute, you need to force them to play your game. 

The issue on the attributes is not the tackling that I'm discussing. It's that you're running a passenger front 2 w/a midfield 4 with very low mentals. Tackling itself as an attribute is usually not make or break to a defensive approach. What is pivotal to a functioning defensive unit are player's with good mentals such as Teamwork, Workrate, Concentration, Anticipation, and Positioning. Your four midfielder's have low mentals for the level you're playing at in those areas and that will mean they will struggle to pull off the tactical instructions you're asking of them as a functioning defensive unit (such as operating together to recover the ball).  

• PIs like mark tight can help funnel opposition areas into the pressing traps you're looking for, again you'll need player's with the mental attributes to reliably pull that off. 

This is compounded by the fact the front two are letting the opposition do whatever they want on the ball. A compact 4-4-2's forwards harry the opposition, either forcing them wide where you can press in the manner it sounds like you're interested in or the central box. Lukaku is capable of playing as a PF which would be a step in the right direction. I can't tell you for certain unless you post the actual tactic, but it looks like your players are 1. failing to follow your instructions 2. you're not setting them up to impact the opposition enough to change their play. 

But how do you mean not setting them up to do so?

Kind of ignore the tackling. That's throwing people off here (including me). It was just a stat I wasn't happy with so was looking for reasons why. The shape is the most important thing. Getting Wingers and FBs narrow off the ball is what I want at this moment. When the opposition has the ball, I want my RB, LB, RM and LM to be narrow, and packed in central areas leaving the flanks free. But when the opposition have the ball in deep areas, my two backs of 4 are spread out, covering the width of the pitch.

so here we can see it perfectly. Look where my RM is. Why is he there and not in the middle? My number 92, he's already defending the wide area rather than starting central and then moving out wide. In this game I did put Lukaku as PF which he pressed more intensely of course. He harried them more but wide players left spaces in the middle. Number 90 for Hellas Verona is completely open - one reason for me is because of how wide my 92 is choosing to be

 

 

 

Edited February 19 by RDF Tactics

[RDF Tactics]

These are the instructions of the wide players as well, sorry forgot to post it.

 

[RDF Tactics]

41 minutes ago, Fox-7- said:

I think some elements are missing to allow us to give you suggestions regarding your problem.

-What mentality are you playing with? You already have a high pressing trigger, if you have Positive or Attacking set your defensive shape could easily be negatively affected by this

-Are you using man-marking or role-marking PIs on your wide players?

Or do you have OIs of marking or pressing on their wide players?

I'm using a 4411 with a DMs pair instead of CMs (set as SVa/DLPs or SVs/DMs depending on the opponents I'm facing) with Standard mentality, mid block with higher DL and standard pressing using Trap Outside TI, and the last time I checked the team stats I was 7th for tackles won (in a 12 team championship) but 1st for tackles won ratio.

Perhaps the fact of using CMs with a standard DL leaves too much space between the lines and many times when the opponent finds the player behind your CMs they are forced to run back and a tackle is less likely to happen, while with DMs they would find themselves to face opponents by being able to choose a better time to make the tackle with greater probability of success

So of course, my team won't be familiar with its semi-new shape straight away.

But, 1min and 56 seconds of the next game, this happens. RM and RB. I don't understand why they are so wide.

2nd image is just minutes later. My LM and RM are just so wide

[RDF Tactics]

@Cloud9 @Fox-7- what I have noticed, though. Is that nowhere in FM or does the manual say that forcing play wide will in fact make your team's shape more narrow. It does say dependent on the strengths of your team/weakness of opposition.

"You can try to Trap Inside or Outside depending on where the strengths and weaknesses of your team and of the opposition like respectively; Trap Inside will try to force play into central areas where winning possession back could lead to high-quality chances, while Trap Outside is often more successful as opponents have fewer options when under pressure, but it doesn’t often yield quite as many successful transition opportunities."

A 442 diamond, naturally you may have more bodies than the opposition so force in the middle. If the opposition only has one player on each flank, depending on your system, you can then force wide as they will have little option.

So maybe just changing the system completely to a 4-1-3-2 or 4-3-1-2 might give me more of what I'm looking for? 

[Cloud9]

51 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

These are the instructions of the wide players as well, sorry forgot to post it.

 

Swapping the CWB(s) for a Fullback(a) will help to address the compactness in the back 4. You can always bring the width of the tactic down a notch as well if you're finding the gaps between players to still be too wide for your liking. This will address that directly.

• Wingbacks will naturally sit wider than the fullback counterparts, and the CWB is a very aggressive variant. FB(s) + FB(a) is a dependable combo for a mid block back 4. 
• On the WM, that's an excellent, defensively responsible role with the right player playing it. I personally like to run DWs when trapping outside as they will play more proactively but this is just my preference and others prioritize the WM. 
  • Spinazzola and El Shaarawy are fairly offensive minded players. If you don't like how they're playing those roles, I'd recommend getting a soldier out there to do the job. Putting flair attackers in areas you want to funnel the opposition into seems a little counter productive.

I agree with @Fox-7- on the CM to DM switch as well, that will help you address crosses once you've actually forced them out wide.

On Tis:

• I'd bin the counter press and reduce the trigger press a notch. This can make you easy to play through on a mid block (it's much better suited to high line approaches). It's a TI I'd use sparingly, usually I watch the match momentum and turn it on for 10-15 minutes where things our going are way. 
• You want to set up compactly and press at the right moments as a team. 

I don't think you need to change formation as you mention. First of all, the 4-4-2 is very strong this year and utilizing traps as you're attempting to do is key to a successful mid block. The addition of Lukaku as a PF will help a lot in providing some pushback against the opposition (before you had very little pressure on their backline in possesion) and showing them wide. Dybala behind him is still just a warm body out of possession, which might be an area you look to address if things aren't working. It's a big ask for Lukaku to press and be the sole counter attacking threat. Again the profile of player's you put into these role's is really important. 

If you don't like how the defensive structure is after those tweaks, I would look to add mentally solid players to the midfield (which is where the midblock will primarily be doing it's work) who are capable of enforcing your gameplan on the opposition.

Edited February 19 by Cloud9

[RDF Tactics]

@Cloud9 Will put this into the system, thank you for the suggestions! Some great minds on here.

admittedly, I’d usually scrap it and just go high pressing mode but the results have been great, it’s just this that’s bugging me.

also determined to show a certain crowd they don’t have to play high pressing by giving them examples of why. Especially as someone who shares many high pressing tactics lol

[-Jef-]

@RDF Tactics have you tried OIs on fullbacks as that seems to be an issue? I'd maybe suggest tight marking - never, trigger press on always and show wide (rb to right foot, lb to left foot)

 

That might fix the issue with wide midfielders man marking full backs

 

Also, good shout by @Cloud9 on using Lakaka as PF which has basically the same movement as AF offensively and moving CM to DM strata.

 

I've found OIs to be extremely powerful when used in moderation and in line with tactic overall.

[Fox-7-]

1 ora fa, Cloud9 ha scritto:

• On the WM, that's an excellent, defensively responsible role with the right player playing it. I personally like to run DWs when trapping outside as they will play more proactively but this is just my preference and others prioritize the WM. 

@Cloud9 DW IMO is still a very underrated and underused role in FM, especially in systems with two banks of 4, because defensive responsibilities are generally left to the fullback (at least on one flank). In my current system I would say that he is one of the key players, and in this role I am using a lot of retrained fullbacks who already have a good base of defensive skills, possibly refining the offensive attributes such as Crossing, Off the ball and Dribbling with the focus of individual training. On the other flank I use a WM on the wrong foot side to resemble a more solid IWs, and here too I often deploy in this position a retrained hardworking CM.

 

This is my current primary setup, the screen is from a few days ago. @RDF Tactics Next time I'll play FM I'll try to provide 2D screens of my defensive shape during matches

 

 

Additionally, to try to force the opponents to play away from the centre I often ask in the OI's to never mark nor press GK and CBs, in this way my two upfront concentrate themselves to prevent passes directed to DMs or CMs

Edited February 19 by Fox-7-

[RDF Tactics]

@Cloud9 @Fox-7- So this is where I'm at so far. I've had to retrain Wallace to be a DLF and Avila to play RM (had no defensive-minded winger and needed at least one).

I'm also taking influence from a tactical guide (https://totalfootballanalysis.com/tactical-theory/tactical-theory-rest-attack-counter-defence-analysis-tactics) about rest attack and using Daryl Dike as the main outlet. So far, two 3-0 wins and we just scored a 41 pass sequence goal  looking to play on the break, we've scored the most beautiful footballing goal but it was the good block that won the ball, and played it to Daryl Dike who decided to pass it back to a CB and we then played some football.

The GK distribution won't be a mainstay - useful against certain opposition and played against Swansea who apparently play adventurous football. Will keep an eye on the Average Defence Height before games to see who's playing the high line

 

[RDF Tactics]

So I love what we've done here. Browne plays the ball into number 44 but because of the work we did forcing that pass which we go and intercept. Not only we win the ball back but because of our instant numerical advantage, we're able to keep possession.

But, my RM. Top of the screen still doing the same thing of defending his position and not shifting over to defend with the pack. Even with never tight mark - I don't understand why this is happening

[RDF Tactics]

This is a lot more of the shape I'm looking for. But this is now using a 4-2-2-2.

So far (for me), seems the only way to eliminate that weird winger positioning off the ball I seem to be getting. Much more rewarding to watch as the central players sort of then hunt down the wide players

[RDF Tactics]

This is the clip from the image above. Not perfect but for me, a lot better in trapping wide. The moment the ball goes back to the keeper, my AMs go narrow. Force the pass wide then we hunt.

Edited February 19 by RDF Tactics

[RDF Tactics]

Not against the greatest opposition but the difference in shape replicates a lot more what I'm looking for and the guiding play.

[RDF Tactics]

Sooooo. Yeah this happened 

[RDF Tactics]

But so far, things just look a lot more organised and well-planned (still not perfect, they got through but then the squeeze killed their attack + Dani Garcia moving everywhere haha). Narrow and compact I couldn't get with the 4411

[Jack Sarahs]

1 hour ago, RDF Tactics said:

So I love what we've done here. Browne plays the ball into number 44 but because of the work we did forcing that pass which we go and intercept. Not only we win the ball back but because of our instant numerical advantage, we're able to keep possession.

But, my RM. Top of the screen still doing the same thing of defending his position and not shifting over to defend with the pack. Even with never tight mark - I don't understand why this is happening

Just want to say firstly that this is a great thread. Started and written from someones pure love for FM and wanting to recreate something within FM24 and the spirit it's written in is shown in the same level of responses.

@RDF Tactics It appears to me that in some of your early screenshots you are playing against 3CB tactics with WB's and because of your formation match up & tactic versus theirs, your wide players are looking to man mark their wingers when they progress up the pitch in certain moments.

Great stuff though love stuff like this I wish I could participate more!

[RDF Tactics]

So my earlier theory of having players in close proximity after tackling helps a lot with tackles won seems to be true (of course, players close by helps pick up the 2nd ball) but it was always about how to achieve that in FM. Despite not having the best tacklers, I can rely on the system, sort of, to retain possession after the initial tackle.

Ever since changing to a 4-2-2-2, I've been able to achieve that but also not lose the aggressiveness I once wanted. Still don't think I'm 100% there but certainly feel like on the right track now rather than scratching my head about certain player positions.

The BWM can be changed to Anchor - that was my plan for those away games or tougher games but actually, the BWM seems to be complementing the system a lot better. The anchor rarely helped with out-of-possession as he rarely looks to leave his position which kind of became a problem when trying to create numerical advantages in the wider areas when defending. Shifting across is important so players holding their position when defending was more detrimental I felt.

 

A much more compact 4-4-2. Forced them wide and allowed Isco to have the ball out wide. He thought he could out pace the full-back (lol) but he had no other option but to drive. De Marcos puts the tackle in and because of the immediate bodies, we collect the 2nd ball and go on the attack.

- Red is showing the compact 4-4-2 shape

- Blue represents the shifting across when we forced wide - blocking options for Isco

- The yellow circle is to show my AMCL is central and not wide like the issue I was having before with an ML. Little spaces now between us

- Yellow line is De Marcos putting in the initial challenge

[JoOSTAR]

Can't wait for a youtube release about this one 

[Cloud9]

12 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

So my earlier theory of having players in close proximity after tackling helps a lot with tackles won seems to be true (of course, players close by helps pick up the 2nd ball) but it was always about how to achieve that in FM. Despite not having the best tacklers, I can rely on the system, sort of, to retain possession after the initial tackle.

Ever since changing to a 4-2-2-2, I've been able to achieve that but also not lose the aggressiveness I once wanted. Still don't think I'm 100% there but certainly feel like on the right track now rather than scratching my head about certain player positions.

The BWM can be changed to Anchor - that was my plan for those away games or tougher games but actually, the BWM seems to be complementing the system a lot better. The anchor rarely helped with out-of-possession as he rarely looks to leave his position which kind of became a problem when trying to create numerical advantages in the wider areas when defending. Shifting across is important so players holding their position when defending was more detrimental I felt.

 

A much more compact 4-4-2. Forced them wide and allowed Isco to have the ball out wide. He thought he could out pace the full-back (lol) but he had no other option but to drive. De Marcos puts the tackle in and because of the immediate bodies, we collect the 2nd ball and go on the attack.

- Red is showing the compact 4-4-2 shape

- Blue represents the shifting across when we forced wide - blocking options for Isco

- The yellow circle is to show my AMCL is central and not wide like the issue I was having before with an ML. Little spaces now between us

- Yellow line is De Marcos putting in the initial challenge

Glad you found a tactical setup that suits what you're looking for, and with Athletico Bilbao! What a cool club they are  4-2-2-2 is interesting this year, I haven't experimented with it too much in a defensive approach, but I really enjoyed utilizing the positional play changes w/ that formation this year.

The other trick that can be helpful in pushing the opposition where you want them, esp w/a PF, is to look at the pass maps. If the opposition GK is frequently distributing to one of the centerbacks you can set an OI for show onto his outside foot. This will frequently lead to the play naturally progressing into wide areas down that CBs flank. Just keep in mind that "show onto foot" is a pressing instruction in itself. 

You could also take a look at a 3-4-2-1, that's a formation that similarly crowds the central space. I've like trap inside + stop crosses in these setups w/tighter marking on the wingbacks to help push the opposition into the central mixer. I'm going to do some playing around with this type of system myself but in an Atletico Madrid 5-3-2 mould post winter patch (which is basically a Simeone evolution of the more classical 4-4-2 we were discussing before). 

Edited February 20 by Cloud9

[khodder]

I was going to mention that maybe the "stop crosses" instruction was asking your wide players to stick close to the oppositions crossing threats. Leading to situations like this one;

 

15 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

So I love what we've done here. Browne plays the ball into number 44 but because of the work we did forcing that pass which we go and intercept. Not only we win the ball back but because of our instant numerical advantage, we're able to keep possession.

But, my RM. Top of the screen still doing the same thing of defending his position and not shifting over to defend with the pack. Even with never tight mark - I don't understand why this is happening

Seems like a solution has been found though.

[Rashidi]

21 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

@Cloud9 @Fox-7- what I have noticed, though. Is that nowhere in FM or does the manual say that forcing play wide will in fact make your team's shape more narrow. It does say dependent on the strengths of your team/weakness of opposition.

"You can try to Trap Inside or Outside depending on where the strengths and weaknesses of your team and of the opposition like respectively; Trap Inside will try to force play into central areas where winning possession back could lead to high-quality chances, while Trap Outside is often more successful as opponents have fewer options when under pressure, but it doesn’t often yield quite as many successful transition opportunities."

A 442 diamond, naturally you may have more bodies than the opposition so force in the middle. If the opposition only has one player on each flank, depending on your system, you can then force wide as they will have little option.

So maybe just changing the system completely to a 4-1-3-2 or 4-3-1-2 might give me more of what I'm looking for? 

Traps don’t affect your width, they affect the body positioning of your players opening up angles. So a trap outside encourages players to show opposition towards the flanks. And then with the right roles and duties you could try winning the ball there. 
 

I find it more effective to use OIs to identify specific players to target and then apply things like show feet to show them away and hard tackle to make it harder for someone to dictate play.

Stop and Invite crosses do have the effect of adjusting your defensive width.

[RDF Tactics]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Traps don’t affect your width, they affect the body positioning of your players opening up angles. So a trap outside encourages players to show opposition towards the flanks. And then with the right roles and duties you could try winning the ball there. 
 

I find it more effective to use OIs to identify specific players to target and then apply things like show feet to show them away and hard tackle to make it harder for someone to dictate play.

Stop and Invite crosses do have the effect of adjusting your defensive width.

Now this is exactly what I was saying to someone too. Force-wide works perfect with my front two as they bend and curve their runs to force wide but that's when it also breaks down because the wingers are wide rather than narrow in midfield so it opened up my channels.

I do feel it should be somewhat easy to achieve the narrow 4-4-2 shape, though. Something that's very very present in IRL and just as important as in possession roles. The image below was a recurring issue. Wingers and full-backs were so wide it opens my channels. The team are defending the whole width of the pitch with my two central players dead central but wide players disconnected. A change in formation, if someone wanted to tweak that much, is always an option

I do hope people see this so they can also understand that their formation is their defensive shape! Something I still have to sort of get through to people in videos haha (THIS TEAM DOESN'T PLAY 4-3-3!!!) no, but they defend in a 4-1-4-1 and you can then use roles to create a different shape in possession.

[Birtan61]

Unai Emery Aston Villa 

[Fox-7-]

@RDF Tactics Intersting defensive approach with narrow 4-2-2-2, i love It...I could take inspiration for my actually empty third tactic slot.

Here are three examples of my defensive shape when the opponents are in possession (they played in a 4-3-3 DM), using the tactic posted in my previous post. As mentioned, the only OIs are to never press or mark GK and CBs. My two front players are focusing on closing the passing lines towards the middle and we manage to defend compactly with two well-defined banks of 4, you can see that I don't have the same problem as you with the player on the far side that remains too wide. In the first image we have just forced a pass back from their right wing towards the CB and the team has shifted organically on our left side, and the only thing I would expect to be better is having my #6 slightly narrower to prevent the pass to their #7, but in fact we were just coming back from a pressing situation after the ball has been correctly addressed to the flank as required. Potential issue in the second image, where my #9 goes for the pressing instead of prevent a pass to their #8 that could force a disruption in my defensive shape if my #10 choose to step up to close #8, but luckily their CB in possession passed to the other CB. There's however a tendency to be slightly wider than expected by the wide players, maybe in order to be ready to press if the ball was played on the flank

 

As for the tackles, that was the focus of OP, my players performed very well with this setup, look at how many players has 100% of tackles won. Maybe less in numbers, but more well timed. Only Deas struggled a bit, but maybe because he is a CB deployed as FB in this game, a less familiar position could have negativelly impacted his performance. Additionally, the most tackles attempted are all by my wide players (Mayo RB, Deas LB, Elias RM, Cortinovis LM, subs Mogos RM, Scales LB and Watson LM), central players doesn't need to engage too much in battles for the ball

Edited February 20 by Fox-7-

[RDF Tactics]

21 minutes ago, Birtan61 said:

Unai Emery Aston Villa 

 

So, it turns out we've accidentally recreated Unai Emery?  I think we have. With the very high defensive line too!

 

[Birtan61]

9 dakika önce, RDF Tactics said:

 

Yani kazara Unai Emery'yi yeniden yarattığımız mı ortaya çıktı?  Sanırım bulduk. Üstelik çok yüksek savunma hattıyla!

 

Grup maçında bu dizilişi yaparsanız hiçbir sorun yaşanmaz. Hahahah

 

left back attacking high

Edited February 20 by Birtan61

[Aoyao]

55 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

 

So, it turns out we've accidentally recreated Unai Emery?  I think we have. With the very high defensive line too!

 

Amazing

How to do it

[bosque]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Traps don’t affect your width, they affect the body positioning of your players opening up angles. So a trap outside encourages players to show opposition towards the flanks. And then with the right roles and duties you could try winning the ball there. 
 

I find it more effective to use OIs to identify specific players to target and then apply things like show feet to show them away and hard tackle to make it harder for someone to dictate play.

Stop and Invite crosses do have the effect of adjusting your defensive width.

Now this are two brand new revelations for me 

[Aoyao]

20 hours ago, bosque said:

Now this are two brand new revelations for me 

 

On 26/04/2023 at 18:35, Jack Joyce said:

Force Inside/Outside - Outside of your defensive third, where do you want to attempt to win the ball back?

• Outside - Players will screen/protect the middle of the pitch, forcing the opposition to play the ball wide during build-up. The theory is that it's easier to win the ball back when the ball is wide, because the opposition have less available range of options due to being near the side-line.
• Inside - Players will cut access to wide players, trying to encourage the opposition in to trying to play through the middle. The idea being that if you manage to win the ball back in a central area, the resulting counter-attack is more dangerous than one that starts from wide.

Note that these instructions don't just change the width of your team when defending, but also affect pressing decisions and the angle in which a player presses from.

Then you have invite/prevent crosses for your own defensive third, allowing you to have different engagement instructions for different areas of the pitch.

When choosing your force outside/inside instruction, think about:

• In my shape/structure, where are we most vulnerable?
• How do the opposition like to build play? Do they have a particular weak link in the build-up who isn't as good on the ball? 

When choosing cross engagement, think about:

• Do we have an aerial superiority?
• What's my opposition's strengths? Are they better at working the ball patiently or do they look to get early crosses in from out wide as much as possible?