Fundamental Football Manager - Making that basic 442

[il_fenomeno]

rashidi,reading this thread has given me a better understadiding of why some of my tactics didn't work out,and has somehow given me a 'revelation':so i started to change my 433 tactic completly;currently playing with boston united(BSS( 12 points clear at the top of the table(last 4 games were wins including a 6-0 i had 7 shots on goal; btw i'm playing a balanced style)

now I would like to ask some questions:

1)so do u agree that a basic 442 (suited to different players and depending on what level do u play) used with correct OI can be a very succesful tactic,only that it needs a better understanding?

2)i'm still confused about the differences between home and away tactic: one thing would be removing FWR and TTB for fullback on away games...

3)what's your opinion on using formations with lone striker?because i've always been playing with lone striker and i think IRL this is used more and more often

tnx

[Rashidi]

A basic 442 can still be made; there will be times when you will need to use the arrows. Its perhaps the most effective way to defend in a certain way and attack in a certain way. You can barrow an MC and make him a DM when defending and a MC when attacking.

Playing a balanced style of football is always a good idea. If you are leading by a goal, chances are the AI will decide to have a go at you late in the game; your balanced approach will leave your players with a little leftover in the tank to handle this.

If you use the right OI instructions you can shut down any formation that comes at you.

2. Home and Away...at home the general consensus is to attack. You want the ball to move up fast and have plenty of players in good attacking positions. Of course you need to assess the teams before adopting such a strategy.

Away from home the logic is to control the match and to be patient, and not to be drawn into a counterattack. I tend to tell my fullbacks not to RWB often for example, and if they aren't good passers of the ball, ttb is removed. Even for good sides I tend to remove TTB so that the focal point of passing is not in an area that will lose possession easily.

3. FM2008, gives a huge advantage to narrow formations with a lone striker upfront. With the right closing down instructions, you could easily turn any AI match on its head. I won't be discussing those kind of formations in this thread.

IRL there are sides that use a 4231 formation, my reference is to formations that have a 4131. These are notorious for exploiting AI deficiency's.

[Golden_Team]

rash becouse i`m big fan 4231 i want to create my own formation what do you think about this?

It is posiblle to work?

]4231[/url]

[jaycar]

Rash, for the 4231 you created it had a narrow width, I'm thinking a high DL, maybe actually first notch of high, CD's close down own area, FB's close down own half, did you use all over pitch for the CM's/AMC's/ST?

Still have trouble knowing which setting is the best to use for the situation

[jackccfc]

hey rashidi.

im using your original tactic. Basically exactly what you said in the very first post on this thread. With tight full backs and a attacking midfielder etc.

But ive employed it with Stoke in the championship, and so far ive won 4 and lost 4. I like the idea, and i can see signs of it working but the problem is, even when i win, i tend to be completely overran by the opposition. As i said i am only using the basic instructions given in your first post.

Any idea's? how to make us more dominant in matches

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Golden_Team:

rash becouse i`m big fan 4231 i want to create my own formation what do you think about this?

It is posiblle to work?

]4231[/url]

I like this set up, but personally id rather have the AMC as an extra defender. Then you have, what probably is the most solid formation you can have without compromising the attacking side. Well imo anyways

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by Golden_Team:

rash becouse i`m big fan 4231 i want to create my own formation what do you think about this?

It is posiblle to work?

]4231[/url]

Yes you can. You have to be very clear on the setups..furthermore, on quick breaks from the AI you can forget your front four as a group that will help defend.

The formation can work, though you have options.

1. In your formation, one of the 2 MCs may actually need a barrow to DMC.

2. Alternatively you can change AMC for MC and barrow

or..play with 3 defenders like cleon suggests

Almost any formation can work, provided you have the right players and right instructions.

jackccfc I didn't give specific details on my tactic, that much I do remember. What you need to understand is the concept of how to make the 442 work.

If you find yourself giving up too much possession, look at

1. is your dline too deep?

2. are you not closing down enough

3. should you be looking at barrowing one mc to dmc

4. are your fullbacks playing ttb and giving the ball away.

Look at these things to determine why you lost the matches.

Its usually down to giving up too much possession by losing the ball.

jaycar could work, you'd need really good defenders.

I'd start with closing down own half for every player first. And then observe the 2D highlights to see how well you're doing. I doubt if you need the strikers and the wingers to go all out.

[Patrick27]

Rashidi1, in your 4-4-2 formation, do you give any of your players free roles?

Sorry if this was asked before.

[Guest qodri]

rashidi, no downloaded tactic?

[Rashidi]

Patrick, in my 442 formation, i don't give freeroles as a matter of rule, but when i'm playing with a very good team, i sometimes let one of the MCs take on a free role.

godri, no downloaded tactics

[jaycar]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

jaycar could work, you'd need really good defenders.

I'd start with closing down own half for every player first. And then observe the 2D highlights to see how well you're doing. I doubt if you need the strikers and the wingers to go all out.

I've tried them with the often setting, about 8 games and I'm unbeaten. Not scoring a huge amount of goals but i can live with that. Pretty stable otherwise, seem to concede the bulk of goals from set pieces, which is annoying. That was with my old blades save which is 6 seasons in, so yeah, the defenders aren't that bad

Gonna try it with a lower league team and with Liverpool next, just to get the extremes tested.

[Rashidi]

jaycar i notice people spend a lot of time working set pieces offensive, but forget defensively.

When setting up your set pieces..make sure you have the 2 best set to mark tall players. have the best jumpers and markers stay back and make sure you try to have as many as 3 players stay forward for quicl breaks in case the AI fails to score. Set one to close down corners as well...I usually score off counter attacks as well.

[jaycar]

Ah...that may be my mistake...I have the wingers on the posts to free the FB's to man mark, one closes the ball down, tall players mark tall players, short only mark short, but only 1 on stay forward...

I'll leave a few more up and see what happens.

Btw, the corners I usually concede are the dreaded near post flick on position

[Tony Tunnycliffe]

Thanks, great to see a simple explanation and an excellent atempt to teach the game rather than just supply a tactic we all download while learning nothing

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by Tony Tunnycliffe:

Thanks, great to see a simple explanation and an excellent atempt to teach the game rather than just supply a tactic we all download while learning nothing

Thank you.

[Rashidi]

Playing a controlled passing game

You're a team with decent talent and you know you can win the match. So what do you do. I'll discuss various types of formations and the tactics you should employ. There are no exploits here, just good old commonsense and the engine does allow for that.

Assume you have a 442 formation, bog basic. First things first, ask yourself these questions.

1. Where are my goals coming from, are they going to come from the flanks or do I want to get them from the centre or do I want to do both.

If you're going for flank attack, make your centre solid, remove TTBs from both the MCs and tell them to be anchors. On the flanks, you have your fullback and your wingers. We've already discussed how to make your wingers cut in, but we want controlled football, so tell your fullbacks not to TTB, this means there won't be wasted possession.

Since you're coming down the flanks, you will have to make sure your front 2 are set up right, if you have one MC with good long shots tell him to make FWR often. Its a very controlled formation and it should keep possession in your favour.

No wingers

Simple, actually my favorite way of attacking. Formations like this tend to be 4132, 4231,4321 formations. Here your fullbacks are the ones busting their guts to get down the flanks. So make sure you have at least 3 defending, or 4 if you choose to make 2 midfielders take on DM roles.

Once again..the fullback is the attacking outlet, so for god's sake take TTB off. He shouldn't have any TTB. Upfront the variations are endless.

[jaycar]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

No wingers

Simple, actually my favorite way of attacking. Formations like this tend to be 4132, 4231,4321 formations. Here your fullbacks are the ones busting their guts to get down the flanks. So make sure you have at least 3 defending, or 4 if you choose to make 2 midfielders take on DM roles.

Once again..the fullback is the attacking outlet, so for god's sake take TTB off. He shouldn't have any TTB. Upfront the variations are endless.

Now thats interesting...my instincts have always been that the 4231's outer AMC's should still act as wingers..

I.e FWR, RWB often, No LS,TTB, mixed cross, although they are set to cross from mixed, not byeline.

Would you suggest they act more as true AMC's, I.e more TTB, less RWB?

The middle AMC has FWR mixed.

Also you said 4 defending? I have the CB's on defensive mentality, and the CM's are barrowed to DM, mixed FWR, and they are on team Attacking mentality. Would you go with defensive mentality instead for the CM's? Attacking mentality means they are a bit more positive with their passing.

Sorry about that rambling post style, the thought spill out in no particular order

[Rashidi]

Depends you could theoretically do what you suggest or play a more narrow styled 4231, but that would necessitate a really good backline.

I probably wouldn't give them TTB either...just run with ball, and cross ball if I want them to be wingers..or RWB mixed and no cross ball if I want them to attack the box late.

jaycar the beauty of the engine is that anything is possible especially if you're a top class side. Ultimately its your own decision, depending like I said on what you have at the back.

Currently I'm trying to get Gloucester City who are in their second season the championship to play a 4312 or a 4312 formation. It was easier with my Wolves side and even easier with Liverpool.

Instructions depend on the kind of players you have.

Your CMs are really deep, which is something that could only work really well if you had players in the M positions. If not you'd be hardput to get good attacks going. Not my favorite i'm afraid. PLaying the AI is easy...playing a human would see you get ripped apart. Try MC positions....without the barrows first, use the FWR instructions for positional changes

[jaycar]

Yeah, width is narrow, so yeah, it probably is conflicting

I'll try removing the barrow, setting them to defensive mentality, all else as is except removing TTB completely. (currently mixed) I've always liked the 2 CM's to be good passing options for the FB's on both sides in a 4231, so I hardly ever have either on often FWR.

I can't get the Arrowhead style 4231 to work, There just seems to be far to much space between the AML/C/R positions, so I keep going back to 3 AMC's, outer 2 with side arrows. They seem to link up better.

Thinking about it, my lack of a CM bombing forward may be whats hampering the Arrowhead...

[KvChaos]

A bit too late for me to get to this thread.. The discussion here looks a lot more professional to what I'm doing with my tactics in FM'08. No wonder I'm losing that frequently lol.

First things first, do I have to watch an entire match to get a hang of the loop-holes in my formations?

Secondly, from the way I see it, it seems like a lot of effort has been made on individual settings. What about team setting? We can just leave it at default?

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by KvChaos:

A bit too late for me to get to this thread.. The discussion here looks a lot more professional to what I'm doing with my tactics in FM'08. No wonder I'm losing that frequently lol.

First things first, do I have to watch an entire match to get a hang of the loop-holes in my formations?

Secondly, from the way I see it, it seems like a lot of effort has been made on individual settings. What about team setting? We can just leave it at default?

When i first started to try and understand the game, I'd watch on full. Its boring and probably the only way you can tell if the players are performing the way the instructions have been laid out. After a while and once you get better at understanding the game, you'll be watchin on highlights or commentary.

Individual settings are important as you can customise to a players ability, but there is nothing wrong with using team settings. Just remember that any individual settings override team ones. Furthermore when you want to squeeze out performance from your side than yes..individual are the way to go. Nothing wrong with team, i just prefer using individual.

[KvChaos]

I'm wondering.. If we're issuing individual command, will a character teamwork affects lesser?

[Rashidi]

No it shouldn't..the only reason why your team won't play well together is if you have set up the formation wrongly. Or if your mentality settings are so far apart they don't make sense...u should read the first few pages of this thread

[KvChaos]

I am trying out using Wigan.

Since I have fast runner like Jason Koumas and Antonio Valencia as winger, and people like Marlon King as striker, I was thinking of a more offensive approach. So what is the important thing to take note of? And btw, I pull a farrow from the ML & MR right to the top, since they have a fair deal in dribbling as well. Correct?

[Tony Tunnycliffe]

kv - read the earlier pages there are some good instructions on how to use your wingers - decide whether they'd be better as crossers, runners or cutting inners.

I'm really enjoying using Rashidi's knowledge, and I find I never use double arrows like you do because i like to keep the tick-tock passing going between players and long arrows would pull them out of these.

Read the whole thread, it's great!

[KvChaos]

Well.. seems like double-farrow rarely work for me. Before they can dribble across, defenders start closing in..

Another thing is OI. Looks like having tight marking for the front 6 players ready cut down a lot of shots.

[Rashidi]

By pulling a farrow for your wingers you are in fact telling them to a: Run like hell everytime you get the ball...

b. Make them so far away from the action that you need really good passers to get the ball to them

c. If you have overlapping fullbacks you get pairs of 2 standing on the flanks.

Not exactly helpful when you want an offensive formation, my suggestion read through some of the stuff I wrote bout the different ways you can play wingers.

[Jablome]

Rashidi, great thread as always. I read a lot of is last nite and earlier and can't remember where, but you were talking about CD, Tempo and Dline at Home. I think you were actually talking about what to do when a side is better than yours, but I am going to ask about the reverse: when you are superior and significantly faster.

One thing I notice is that in many games - both leauge and cup - where you are Home and very, heavy favorites (7-1 or higher), it can be frustrating and puzzling. You put in your typical 442 with attacking/controlling type settings and...you find yourself yelling at the screen b/c your Man U or Chelsea are not destroying Aldershot. But you know you should be like France v. Faroe Islands or something.

So, my thought/question: If you are far superior (Man U. v. Brighton) and can overwhelm them with speed, strength and skill, wouldn't it be smart to move CD, Tempo and Dline all to the far right (20) at least for the first 15-20 minutes?

I have not tried it, but it would seem that a Prem team might just roll over a L1 or L2 team and not let them breath.

Also, I said 7-1 was very heavy favorites. Agree or would you say higher/lower odds?

[Old Git]

Well, (for those who followed the earlier results) I am now in my 4th season with a 442 with Zaragoza, and with a vastly superior squad to the one which started. Results have been varied:

2007/2008

Pl 38 HW 15 HD 3 HL 1 AW 7 AD 4 AL 8 Pts 73 Pos 5th

2008/2009

Pl 38 HW 15 HD 2 HL 2 AW 8 AD 7 AL 4 Pts 77 Pos 3rd

2009/2010

PL 38 HW 15 HD 2 HL 2 AW 11 AD 5 AL 3 Pts 85 Pos 3rd

So, what can I hypothesise so far. Well at home, the settings, described in earlier posts, with detailed attention to OI and AI activity work well, with the odd blip to a set-piece, or just plain good football. I am finding the away set-up harder to get right, and last seasons away wins I put down primarily to the number of goals from corners Vidal gets.

What I can say is that improving the quality of the squad year on year, no editors, or cheats in use, has helped, so the quality at your disposal is key. No point in having a balls out attacking formation with lots of slick passing if the players ain't up to it.

Away from home, whilst following the tenets within these pages on FBs, DL, Tempo etc, I find that though I can now control games but am finding it difficult to do the AI thing and score with my first shot of each half, then defend

So, getting OI is vital in a 442. Control of the AM in AM led attacks is probably the hardest part of this iteration of the game. Rashidis tips on this are good. Paying close attention to the formation screens and reacting to AI subs for OI in time can be crucial. (This is one area, I am finding frustrating, in many cases the AI can make a change, you can pause, make your adjustments, but it can take up to 7 game mins for the changes to take effect, and by then you may have lost the game.

My most frustrating example of this was when I went 3-1, away to Sevilla in the 90th min. They made 3 subs and a formation change, I paused and adjusted OI accordingly, by the time the changes took effect they had scored two in 180 secs! I must admit to a certain amount of frustration, as I really don't believe that 3-1 down in the last minute, any team would go balls out. Had an online game last night, at which point I was 6-1 ahead as 85 mins turned on the clock, AI still went 424, I don't think that's too realistic tbh!)

[Old Git]

Originally posted by Jablome:

Rashidi, great thread as always. I read a lot of is last nite and earlier and can't remember where, but you were talking about CD, Tempo and Dline at Home. I think you were actually talking about what to do when a side is better than yours, but I am going to ask about the reverse: when you are superior and significantly faster.

One thing I notice is that in many games - both leauge and cup - where you are Home and very, heavy favorites (7-1 or higher), it can be frustrating and puzzling. You put in your typical 442 with attacking/controlling type settings and...you find yourself yelling at the screen b/c your Man U or Chelsea are not destroying Aldershot. But you know you should be like France v. Faroe Islands or something.

So, my thought/question: If you are far superior (Man U. v. Brighton) and can overwhelm them with speed, strength and skill, wouldn't it be smart to move CD, Tempo and Dline all to the far right (20) at least for the first 15-20 minutes?

I have not tried it, but it would seem that a Prem team might just roll over a L1 or L2 team and not let them breath.

Also, I said 7-1 was very heavy favorites. Agree or would you say higher/lower odds?

What you find, generally, in games where you are heavy favourites, you get the Barnsley scenario, in that they have absolutely nothing to lose, set out to frustrate the living daylights out of you and nick one! In answer to tempo in a situation like this, they are not set out to attack but defend, you therefore have to draw them out, so in fact a slower build up at the back, drawing out the midfield and creating space is where you can defeat this. Stretch the pitch and draw them out, rather than compress it and leave no space, which is exactly what the smaller team want you to do, as it makes it easier for them to close down and nullify your lightning fast players.

[Jablome]

Away from home, whilst following the tenets within these pages on FBs, DL, Tempo etc, I find that though I can now control games but am finding it difficult to do the AI thing and score with my first shot of each half, then defend

Soooo true. One thing that has helped a great deal for me with my Away 442 sets is setting delivery to the TM to feet. It really helps keep possession. I usually have at least one, usually two players with over 90 passes. I almost always control the middle. Now, if I could get more finishing, I might keep Hartlepool in the Prem for their first season up!

[Jablome]

Originally posted by Old Git:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jablome:

Rashidi, great thread as always. I read a lot of is last nite and earlier and can't remember where, but you were talking about CD, Tempo and Dline at Home. I think you were actually talking about what to do when a side is better than yours, but I am going to ask about the reverse: when you are superior and significantly faster.

One thing I notice is that in many games - both leauge and cup - where you are Home and very, heavy favorites (7-1 or higher), it can be frustrating and puzzling. You put in your typical 442 with attacking/controlling type settings and...you find yourself yelling at the screen b/c your Man U or Chelsea are not destroying Aldershot. But you know you should be like France v. Faroe Islands or something.

So, my thought/question: If you are far superior (Man U. v. Brighton) and can overwhelm them with speed, strength and skill, wouldn't it be smart to move CD, Tempo and Dline all to the far right (20) at least for the first 15-20 minutes?

I have not tried it, but it would seem that a Prem team might just roll over a L1 or L2 team and not let them breath.

Also, I said 7-1 was very heavy favorites. Agree or would you say higher/lower odds?

What you find, generally, in games where you are heavy favourites, you get the Barnsley scenario, in that they have absolutely nothing to lose, set out to frustrate the living daylights out of you and nick one! In answer to tempo in a situation like this, they are not set out to attack but defend, you therefore have to draw them out, so in fact a slower build up at the back, drawing out the midfield and creating space is where you can defeat this. Stretch the pitch and draw them out, rather than compress it and leave no space, which is exactly what the smaller team want you to do, as it makes it easier for them to close down and nullify your lightning fast players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, perhaps a tempo setting to the far left (1) with CD far right (20). I might just start a game with a galactic side to try it out.

[Old Git]

Oh, and to add to the Zaragoza thoughts, Team talks. Getting them right can really change your fortunes.

[Old Git]

Originally posted by Jablome:

So, perhaps a tempo setting to the far left (1) with CD far right (20). I might just start a game with a galactic side to try it out.

If you look at the posts where Closing Down is discussed, the consensus is that CD instructions are best done individually, rather than collectively, e.g setting the front 4/5 to whole pitch and more defensive elements to own half/own area, otherwise you will see players being drawn to the ball and leaving gaps to exploit. I've never been as extreme as dropping Tempo down to 1, I just get a bad feeling that my players would hang on to it top long and lose the ball in key areas at that tempo, I personally never go slower than 5, others do. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong away from home!

[Jablome]

Originally posted by Old Git:

Oh, and to add to the Zaragoza thoughts, Team talks. Getting them right <STRIKE>can really</STRIKE> WILLchange your fortunes.

[Jablome]

Originally posted by Jablome:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Old Git:

Oh, and to add to the Zaragoza thoughts, Team talks. Getting them right <STRIKE>can really</STRIKE> WILLchange your fortunes.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Btw, that was not intended to be rude. It is just vital that anyone getting into this game understand that team talks are absolutely pivotal.

If you get them right, especially halftime talks when you are down or closely leading, it is where you make your, as wwfan says, virtual money.

Get them wrong, and it won't matter what tactic you are using in many instances. And, that can be frustrating b/c you might not realize that your tactic is a good one b/c your talks are not spot on.

Having said all of that, keep in mind that you can blow a team talk with a galactic side and you still might do well, or at least survive the half. But if you are playing a newly promoted L1 side (ex. Hartlepool), and your talk is wrong...trouble.

[KvChaos]

I am currently playing a team with most of the players having around 12-14 passing. How do I go about it? I already gone through 2 matches (Chelsea 2-2 Wigan Got 2 goals back in second half, don't really know how though lol) (Wigan 0-1 Everton lose due to set-piece), playing a slow and defensive 4-4-2.

Problem is, even though I set my defenders to defensive mentality, short passes and slow tempo for the team, they seem to clear the ball to the opposing half at a frequent rate, resulting in the frequent lose of possession.

Good thing is, the defensive tactics and man-marking OI seems to clear out most of the threats.

[Stuart Warren]

Great thread. Spent some time implementing a 4411/442 with Grongingen from the tips in here, and it's performing well. That is, I'm putting some lovely moves together, am maintaining about 55% possession each and trebling the oppositions shots/shots on target.

Despite that, all I've come away with so far is WLDL, scoring only 3 goals in the process.

I know it's only early days with my side, but is there a fundamental reason behind teams dominating and creating so much, but putting nothing away?

[Old Git]

Originally posted by KvChaos:

I am currently playing a team with most of the players having around 12-14 passing. How do I go about it? I already gone through 2 matches (Chelsea 2-2 Wigan Got 2 goals back in second half, don't really know how though lol) (Wigan 0-1 Everton lose due to set-piece), playing a slow and defensive 4-4-2.

Problem is, even though I set my defenders to defensive mentality, short passes and slow tempo for the team, they seem to clear the ball to the opposing half at a frequent rate, resulting in the frequent lose of possession.

Good thing is, the defensive tactics and man-marking OI seems to clear out most of the threats.

Don't try and judge it from just two games. Remember it will take time for the players to get used to the tactic (gel in other words). The fluidity will develop and then you can start to adjust (tweak) little things within the tactical setup, such as tempo and attacking mentality to allow you to create more scoring opportunities

On the defenders hoofing it, have a look at what their passing options were and whether they have TTB's set-up. If they were under pressure and had no out ball, they will, just as in real life, get rid!

[Old Git]

Originally posted by Arjen Robben:

Great thread. Spent some time implementing a 4411/442 with Grongingen from the tips in here, and it's performing well. That is, I'm putting some lovely moves together, am maintaining about 55% possession each and trebling the oppositions shots/shots on target.

Despite that, all I've come away with so far is WLDL, scoring only 3 goals in the process.

I know it's only early days with my side, but is there a fundamental reason behind teams dominating and creating so much, but putting nothing away?

Much of the answer lies in the type of opportunity created, how much space the striker is in, is he rushing shots, are players attempting too many long shots. Is there creativity too high, are the opposition man a tight defensive unit, are they being allowed to "park the bus?"

Reading the scouts reports and looking at their setup can often give you a clue as to how they will play, will you have to draw them out to create clearer chances.

Its the scenario where you are playing a larger team, get a battering, nip up the park and score mainly because they have thrown everyone forward. In your case, it may be that the opposition are trying to attempt the same to you.

[Patrick27]

If you put all of your players on TTB rarely would you

a. Keep the majority of the possession

b. Reduce chances?

Thanks

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by Arjen Robben:

Great thread. Spent some time implementing a 4411/442 with Grongingen from the tips in here, and it's performing well. That is, I'm putting some lovely moves together, am maintaining about 55% possession each and trebling the oppositions shots/shots on target.

Despite that, all I've come away with so far is WLDL, scoring only 3 goals in the process.

I know it's only early days with my side, but is there a fundamental reason behind teams dominating and creating so much, but putting nothing away?

Yes there is which is the subject of my next focal area:

Playing against a defensive team

Closing down and defensive lines can be used in many ways, there are some guidelines to follow. One closing down heavily in defense or in midfield can sometimes be counterproductive. Upfront its fine, the key lies in the creation of space.

When faced against some AI thats decided to pump you with an all out attack, I tend to push the defensive line up, this has the effect of closing down available space for the AI to use. You can make things worse for the AI by using the Opp Inst closing down instructions. As usual I'll let the discussion follow from this point on as many of you who have use OI will know pretty much what to do. Last week I was playing against none other than a 'celebrity' in the gameworld, who took a 2-0 lead going into halftime. I was using a 4132 and found myself on the backfoot, he decided to go for the jugular and switched to a 4 2MC 2 wide AMs and 2 strikers. At this point I went yahoo..used OI switched to a 442 and won the match 442.

When faced against a defensive opponent, its important to hold your shape and knock the ball around like old git says, extending width is not a bad idea, but reducing your defensive line is better. By increasing your defensive line you increase available space for the AI to play into. Once again, use OI to make sure you get what you want.

TTB are useless in formations that seek to develop a game slowly and meant for busting down defensive formations. Not entirely useless, use TTB for players who have good passing/decisions. And who are well placed to launch counters. These could include the FBs if they have good passing attributes...and i say if. Not my personal favorite...but if the positioning of the opposing winger isn't good then why not.

[KvChaos]

So how can I define whether the players are already seasoned with my tactics?

Secondly, what is the definition of a change in tactics? If I keep it at 4-4-2, but just meddling with the settings, with they still need time to settle it?

There's one thing I like to ask. When people talk about something like mentality, and giving them a number like 5 mentality, 15 closing down.. is that done by counting them manually? lol.

[StripeySCFC]

Good thread.

I've tried and failed over many versions and patches of the game, to construct a solid 4-4-2 that works over a decent period of time (> half a season).

I dusted off the cob-webs and started a new game with Shrewsbury in League 2 the other day. I set about creating (off the top of my head without reading this thread) a 4-4-2 with long Farrows for the wingers. You know the usual stuff. I tweaked the sliders individually to set the back four very defensive, with little creative freedom. One holding midfielder and one attacking midfielder with one target man and a small, nippy forward playing in behind. Pretty simple stuff here with no frills.

It was a disaster. After 21 games I had 22 points and was on the fringes of a relegation battle. I went back to the drawing board and decided to 'make it simple'.

I kept the shape with the Farrows exactly the same but put all players on global slider settings:

Mentality - 13

Closing down - 10

Passing - 13

Width - 13

Creative Freedom - 10

Tackling - Normal

Defensive Line - 10

I set a target man to mixed and focus passing down both flanks.

Individual instructions were given in terms of forward runs etc.

Two full backs (FR often, RWB Often, TTB - mixed, cross - mixed, aim Target Man, rest - rarely)

Two CB (all sliders rarely)

All defenders on tight zonal marking

Two wingers (FWR - Often, RWB - Often - TTB mixed, Cross - Often, Byeline, Targetman)

Two Centre midfielders (FWR - Often !!, RWB - Often!!, TTB - Often!!, rest rarely)

Target Man (FWR - Mixed, RWB - rarely, TTB - Often, rest - rarely) Hold up ball away from home.

Striker (Mentality - 20, FWR - Often, RWB - Often, rest - rarely)

With this basic setup, and using OI sparingly (tight marking and hard tackling on strikers, weak wingers and midfielders, also showing players onto weaker foot) I surged up the table winning 15 of the final 25 games (losing only 2) to finish just outside the play-offs by a point.

I finished as second highest scorers behind Hereford with 83 goals but let in a hell of a lot of goals (over 60!). Granted, some of those were in the first 21 games where I took a few beatings.

This may be a daft question, but how do I tighten my system above up without stifling the play going forward? I'm half way there but need a little help - cheers.

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by KvChaos:

So how can I define whether the players are already seasoned with my tactics?

Secondly, what is the definition of a change in tactics? If I keep it at 4-4-2, but just meddling with the settings, with they still need time to settle it?

There's one thing I like to ask. When people talk about something like mentality, and giving them a number like 5 mentality, 15 closing down.. is that done by counting them manually? lol.

Small changes are tweaks..they should be ok..I do major formation changes as well..but you really need to know what you're after to make them work..experience is the best teacher for that.

Yes we count them manually

[Rashidi]

StripeyFC..why are you using long farrows? to do that?

You could a. Have them sit there in the F slots and then barrow them to the M slots, but for that to work they must be able to play in both positions.

If you want wingers to bomb forward you can still do that with a short arrow....a long arrow is not effective...alternatively use them as AML AMR instead of FL/FR..then use OI and shut down the AI.

The AI will take advantage of that formation especially when you lose the ball in their half.

Your settings do look disastrous, I have to admit.

[StripeySCFC]

rash, you'll have to excuse me here. I get very little time to read these threads nowadays, so my tactical knowledge of these games is still stuck back to the wibble-wobble days.

I use Farrows to push the wingers up. Reading into what you're saying it's better to have the players with long barrows or short farrows. I'm assuming because the coding of the engine makes the players move quicker towards the end of the arrow and drift back towards the original starting point? I'll give it a try.

I must admit; D-Line, Width, Closing down, global mentality and individual mentality I struggle with - hence the reason I went down the road of keeping things quite global and 'simple'. More reading needed methinks.

As for my "Keegan-esque" settings, I catually found myself taking the lead quite heavily in nearly every game. Often at home I would lead 3/4-0 at half time - only to ship 3/4 in the second half in some games, 2/3 in others leaving a nail biting finish.

[Old Git]

Stripey,

If you work on the principle that by long farrowing you are telling the player "When we get the ball, leg it as far up the park as you can." then you will see that you leave yourself a problem that they will be high up the park and out of position if you lose theball. They will have to then "run like the wind" to get back to their defensive position of halfway, stamina becomes an issue, as they tire more easily and are less effective.

Short farrowing tells them "start slightly higher up the park, and within the player instructions you can get them to RWB and cross from byline, you'll see a amuch better effect with your wingers and keep a tighter defensive shape, and be in a better position to nullify opposition attacks.

[Old Git]

Something that has occurred to me as I continue with my Zaragoza save. I noted at the beginning of season 4 that I was winning more games with my "home" set up than I was with my away, whilst at home I was continually adjusting/tweaking to get results. Now many would see this as the AI "sussing" your set-up, I don't subscribe to that particular school, and view it more as the opposition being more aware of how we play at home, and setting themselves up accordingly. Almost evry scout report I get more home matches now, tells me the opposition are going to come with a defensive set-up, including Barca and Real, therefore, an adjustment in DL as described in Rashidis post is now required, atempting to draw the opposition out, as opposed to going full bore high up the park and being caught.

So, if my experience is anything to go by, then be prepared, that should you achieve a degree of success with one set-up, then the opposition will in future adjust accordingly and frustrate you, leading to the "AI has sussed me" claims. This is merely good scouting and management. By changing your setup, the AI will re-adjust and you can change mid-game.

Just a thought!

[evilmonster]

First post on here

Been reading this topic with interest, after finding previous tactic attempts not working how I'd want them to.

Still, my Liverpool side haven't done too bad upto now with other tactics, but after a couple of draws and a difficult game away against Roma I decided, time for a change.

So, went with a 4-4-2 using hints on this topic.

Team of:

Reina

Riise Barzagli Kompany Arbeloa

Downling Lucas (barrow to DMC) Alonso Gerrard

Torres Pandev (barrow to AMC)

Downing in favour of Babel for crossing ability for this match, Alonso in favour of van der Vaart due to being away and wanting more midfield control, Mascherano injured.

Team Instructions:

Mentality: 5

Creative Freedom: 4

Passing style: Short (5)

Tempo: Normal (6)

Width: Normal (7)

Closing Down: Own Area (0)

Time Wasting: Rarely (5)

Defensive Line: Deep (2)

Tackling: Normal

Focas Passing: Mixed

Marking: Zonal

Target Man Supply: Mixed

Tight Marking: Yes

Use Target Man: Yes

Use Playmaker: Yes

Target Man: Torres

Playmaker: Alonso/van der Vaart

Player Instructions:

DL/DR :- FWR, RWB, LS, TTB - mixed; CB - often; passing - mixed

DC :- Men - Defensive (0), CF - 5 FWR, RWB - rarely; LS/TTB/CB - mixed; Marking - man

ML/MR :- Men - 13;CF - 10, FWR - mixed MR often ML; RWB - often; LS (MR - often; ML - mixed)/TTB/CB - mixed MR/Often ML (downing is better at crossing than Gerrard)

Left MC :- Men - 3;CF - 2;Tackling - Easy (Lucas can be a yellow/red card magnet i find!);FWR - rarely, RWR - mixed, LS - rarely; TTB - Often; CB - mixed; passing - direct

Right MC :- Men - 15; CF - Normal (12); FWR - mixed;RWB, LS - mixed; TTB - often; CB - mixed; passing - direct

Left ST :- FWR, RWB - mixed, LS - rarely, TTB - mixed, CB - rarely

Right ST :- CF - Much (15); FWR - often; RWB, LS, TTB - mixed; CB - rarely; hold up ball: yes.

Oppostion Instructions:

If pacey attacker/midfield - tight marking = always

if slower then closing down - always

pacey attackers/midfielders = hard tackling

The Match:

Started off well, within 9 minutes was up thanks to a Torres goal. They snatched on back after 26 minutes, Torres scored again after 28 minutes.

Stayed 2-1 at HT. After half-time at about the 60th minute I brought van der Vaart, Kuyt and Carranger on.

At 74 minutes in they made two subs, and changed to 4-2-4 and proceeded to try to hammer my goal. Tweaked defensiveness to be slightly tighter and a couiple of other things (forget now).

On 90th minute Arbeloa got second yellow, so set to ultra defensive to weather injury time storm. Just managed it!

I think my team could of done better, even won by a better margin, suggesting the tactic could be tweaked further.

Obviously I've only tried it against Roma so far, but 2-1 away in the CL is a good result

Some screenshots to add a bit more detail:

Overview

Action Zones

Match Stats

Player Ratings

Stats

Lineup

I've not really been playing on 8.0.2 patch long (first save game!), but have played through on 8.0.0/8.0.1 before now.

Any suggestions for tweaks for future games to try to improve it? (I obviously heavily geared this towards facing Roma as a defensive away tactic). I intend to try to make a more attacking tactic for home games and see how I fare.