Possession based 433

[burnum]

After reading through countless articles and trying/testing a ton of tactics I decided to try my own tactics. This tactics-thread is not supposed to be a "plug-and-play one-size-fits-all tactic". I do provide a download for my tactics but this is more of a guide on how to use the tactics in certain game situations. If you want an overpowered tactic to plug-and-play and never change anything, there will probably be better threads for you than this one. If you're interested in installing a possession-based 433 and tweak some little things from game to game, this could be the right thread for you.

 

This is about possession-based attacking football. I'm not trying to replicate any real-life team/manager, although Pep had a huge influence on my way of trying to play. But this is not a pure Pep replication, it's basically my own twist on a possession-based 433.

 

Before we start, let's give some credit: I've gained a ton of FM knowledge from guys like @Cleon, @Experienced Defender and @Rashidi. For the way I'm trying to create this tactical thread, my inspiration was based on possession-based tactic threads by @BJT and also threads by @Mr U Rosler from earlier versions of FM.

 

First, let's look at some test results of my tactic: the system is better suited for bigger teams and was initially created with the main purpose to be used by FC Bayern and Ajax. Out of curiosity I've also done some holliday-testing with other teams (see screenshots below) and the results were pretty surprising. My method was the same for all the tests: start a save with a team, load the tactic, go on holiday (make sure the box 'use current tactics' is ticked) until 15th November, which is when the World Cup break starts in all leagues. So I don't have a huge sample size but I think it's enough to see in which circumstances my tactic works (and in which it doesn't). Keep in mind this was done with holliday-testing only. If I would have managed the team, making some small tweaks here and there, setting lineups, making subs, holding team-talks, the results could've been even better.

 

Bayern (expected 1st): 12 wins, 1 draw (0-0 opening day at Frankfurt when players' tactical knowledge wasn't maxed out yet), 1 loss (1-2 at Dortmund)

63 percent possession, 91 percent completions, 733 competed passes per game - this is possession football but only to an extend that we're still trying to be productive and score (not "possession for the sake of just keeping the ball"). We could easily reach higher possession numbers but I think that would lower the effectiveness of our attacking output (creating chances and scoring goals).

 

Ajax test (expected 1st): undefeated with 12 wins, 2 draws from 14 games

68 percent possession with Ajax:

 

Monaco test (expected 4th): 4th place is exactly on par with expectations, still not ideal, I expected it to be performing a bit better. 3 of the 4 losses came away from home, in the only home defeat we had a man sent off after 23 mins.

 

West Ham (expected 8th):

 

Paderborn (my hometown club, expected to finish 11th): we're leading the league at the halfway mark of the season - good fit for Paderborn as they have some players who are well-suited for this playing style

 

This is the base tactic:

 

Out of possession we defend in a 4141 shape:

 

When in possession it shifts to a 235 shape (see the Pep influence???):

 

TACTICS DOWNLOAD (there will be 2 or 3 other versions for different in-game scenarios in the next post):

433 Burnum.fmf

433 Base.fmf (433 Base is discussed further down in this thread, it's an upgraded version)

 

Next post:

Explanation of the thought process behind the tactics.

What possible tweaks can we make in certain situations and against certain formations or play-styles?

What players are we looking for in each position?

Edited December 11, 2022 by burnum

[burnum]

There were a few things I wanted to base my setup around:

• 433 formation
• possession-based football
• a mostly symmetric base-setup which fits multiple teams and is not custom-made for one particular teams
• I wanted a system where I could make simple adjustments by simply adjusting mentality a notch up or down

I wanted to create a possession-based 433. First question is always "who provides the width to spread out the opposing defensive line?" Without width there won't be any room for anyone to run into. I started out trying with a more traditional 433 with Inside Forwards cutting inside and Wingbacks providing width. However, I felt that the Wingbacks, even on the most attacking setup possible, don't get deep enough to consintently force the opposing DL/DR outside to the sideline (thus creating lanes for the Inside Forwards to run into). I could have tons of possession but didn't get a lot of runs into dangerous areas. So I decided to try something else: I swapped the Inside Forwards for "true" Wingers, as they have the PIs "stay wider" and "run outside with ball" hardcoded for the role. The Wingers did a much better job occupying the opposing Fullbacks outside, leaving tons of space in the half-spaces (with a central Striker occupying at least one Central Defender inside). Now I needed roles for the central midfielders (the "free 8" players in Pep's system) who need to make runs into the half spaces as much as possible while also helping with ball circulation. I initially tried a setup with one RPM-s and one MEZ-s they didn't attack the half-spaces enough. So I experimented with the 2 MEZ-a roles and they instantly improved the attacking phase of the game (possible tweak: you could switch one of them to AP-s, if you have a more static player who lacks the physical attributes to constantly make those runs - this will give you slightly more possession but at the expense of some goalscoring threat).

 

What players are we looking for in each position?

SK-de: Ideally, we want a good allround keeper here. He helps building up from the back and should be able to rush out to clear some long balls over the defensive line (high DL). Just get the best possible keeper you can who is somewhat comfortable on the ball. Perfect fits are Neuer, ter Stegen, Ederson or Allison; budget fit would be someone like Livakovic.

BPD-de: tactical system is designed to be used with a top team (I had Bayern & Ajax in mind when setting up the tactics), so we won't be forced back into our own area too much. Due to our high DL we need centrebacks who are fast (Speed, Acc) to run with opposing strikers in case of over-the-top balls. They're also an important part of our buildup-process, so they need to be decent on the ball. The guys at Bayern (Upamecano, de Ligt, Lucas Hernandez, Pavard) are all perfect fits for this. When I designed the role I had David Alaba in mind (during his later Bayern days when he played as a central defender). If you have a centreback who isn't comfortable on the ball, you might want to switch this role to CD-d.

IWB-su: this is a tweener-role between a classic Fullback and a DLP. These guys are our deep playmakers. They can truly make or break the system. While they'll rarely get the highest ratings or the most accolades, the importance of having really good players in the two IWB positions can't be overstated. We're looking for the athleticism of a fullback and the passing skills of a DLP. I found it to be more effective to play them on their inverted foot (so the left IWB is right-footed and the right IWB is left footed), which helps them with those long diagonal balls to switch play to the other side. The trait "likes to switch ball to the flank" is great for these guys. Joshua Kimmich is probably the perfect fit as the left IWB in this setup (Cancelo, Zinchenko, J.Timber, Rensch are very good as well). If you're scouting for this position, look for central midfielders (DM or CM) who are athletic and retrain them as DL/DR.

HB-de: Another tweener, this time between a central defender and a defensive midfielder. He's not a playmaker but he brings structure and is basically our safety-net when we're in possession. Just plays a ton of short passes to the Inverted Wingbacks or the Mezzalas in the buildup. Very important to protect the space infront of the central defenders. You can either play a midfielder who's good at defending or a defender who's good on the ball in this spot (Fabinho, Rodri and Partey come to mind). This role can get away with a lack of athleticism - if you have an older player who's still good but lacks speed/acc, this could be a good spot for him (like Daley Blind from Ajax). Ron Schallenberg from Paderborn is a good option, if you're looking for a budget option who can get the job done. You don't want any player here who has the "gets further forward" or "gets into opposition area" trait (these players are better used in the Mezzala roles).

MEZ-at: These are basically your half-space attackers. They need to be good on the ball (passing, vision, decisions, technique, first touch) but also off the ball. Kevin de Bruyne is the role-model, of course, but unless you're playing as Man City, you probably won't be able to get him. Musiala/Goretzka/Müller are all very good in this role for Bayern. You might want to scout for an AMC and retrain him to MC here. Can be played both, on their natural or on their inverted foot. Playing him on the side of their natural foot (e.g. right-footed player as the Mezzala on the right side) makes sense if you have a player who is good at dribbling and crossing. Playing him on the inverted side (e.g. right-footed player on the left) helps if you want him to switch the ball to the other side or if they are a threat from long-shots (in that case remove the "shoot less often" PI). These guys run a lot, so they need stamina and workrate.

W-at: Classic wingers here. Think Ryan Giggs in his prime. His main job is to run down his flank (either with the ball or without it), cross the ball inside or provide width (stretching the opposing defense horizontally, thus providing more space for other players inside). They need pace (speed/acc), dribbling skills (dribbling, balance, agility, technique), crossing, off the ball, stamina, workrate. Again, Bayern Munich has a ton of good options here (Sané, Mané, Coman) but this is more of a specialized role where you can get away with a more one-dimensional player. If you have a speedy striker it might be worth retraining him as a W-at (someone like Timo Werner or Myron Boadu). Play them on their natural side (e.g. left-footed on the left) if you can. If you can't (e.g. because you only have right-footed wing-players in your team), you might want to switch the role from W-at to IW-at - but make sure the PI "stays wider" is ticked at all times. Useful traits in this position are "hugs line" and "runs down left/right flank with ball".

PF-at: Just play your best goal-scoring striker here, if he has decent stamina, workrate and off the ball skills. If you have a big guy who's good in the air, make sure to switch crosses from "low" to "mixed" in team instructions (but do not use him as a Target Forward under any circumstances, as this completely changes the entire buildup phase of the tactics). If you have a Messi-esque type of player, you could play him here and switch the role to DLF-su or even F9 to get him more involved in the buildup play. If you have a "normal" striker, I'd advise to keep the PF-at role for now.

 

What positions to spend your money on?

In a perfect world, you'd want the best possible players at all positions. However, we all know that that's not always possible for anyone but a very small number of teams. Most teams are on some sort of budget. If you have to decide on where to spend your money to get the maximum out of your investment, I'd recommend spending on the IWB and MEZ positions. These 4 players really need good allround skillsets so you want great players there. It's also important to have 2 good centrebacks, so that's the third position I'd invest in. In contrast to that, I wouldn't break the bank for a Half Back or a Keeper, these positions could be filled more cheaply, in my opinion.

 

Next Post:

possible tweaks I'd make in certain situations (incuding downloadable alternate versions of the tactics)

Edited December 9, 2022 by burnum

[burnum]

Tweaks to the tactical setup:

1) home/away game setups: I usually switch to Attacking mentality (unless it's a very tough opponent) for most home games. When playing away from home I usually start with Positive mentality. If we're playing away at a very tough opponent (e.g. Champions League at Real Madrid), I'd start at Balanced or even Cautious mentality. If we have a cupcake game, I might occasionally start at Attacking mentality against far inferior teams (e.g. early round cup games away at lower division sides, maybe even league games against clear-cut bottom-of-the-table teams).

2) Control tactics: Once I'm content with the score in-game I switch to my CTRL version of the tactic. It's based on removing risk and controlling and seeing out the game. In normal league games I usually switch to this tactic if I'm up by 2 goals. We focus on keeping possession - if we have the ball, the other team can't score. D-Line drops a tad deeper to remove the risk of the over-the-top ball. Mentality, width, tempo are all decreased a notch, "pass into space" is unticked to minimize unnecessary turnovers. The "take more risk" PI on both IWB is removed for the same purpose. Our DNA is still the same: possession-based football with the ball, high pressing against the ball. We just turned it down a notch. This also helps if you have a crowded schedule with the next match coming up in 2 or 3 days, as it decreases intensity quite a bit.

3) Hurry Up tactics: This is basically the opposite of the control version - I use it if we're chasing a goal late in the game. I usually switch to this tactic if I'm down by 1 or 2 goals with around 20 to 30 minutes to go (more like 20 if we're down 1 goal, more like 30 if we need 2 goals - which you should try to prevent in the first place). Occasionally I might also use this late in a game when drawing against inferior teams that we should beat, but be aware that it comes at a certain risk. Attacking mentality, less focus on possession, heavier focus on penetration and shooting. The HB is switched to DLP-su to offer more support going forward (could even be switched to a Regista if you want to be even more aggressive). The "shoot less often" PI is taken off all attacking players. Directness & Tempo are increased, "be more expressive" is ticked, "work ball into box" is unticked - we don't care about possession anymore, we need to score as soon as possible!

4) Shut-up-shop tactics: I only use this tactic if I desperately want to hold on to a narrow lead in the final minutes of a game. I usually switch to my SUS tactic if I'm leading by exactly 1 goal (or if we need to hold onto a draw) and we're around the 85th minute. This is basically Diego-Simeone-style football: waste time whenever possible, men behind ball, destruction mode. The Wingers are moved from the AML/AMR to the ML/MR strata to create a more compact shape. All players are instructed to "take fewer risks", the centre-backs are switched from BPD to CD (we don't care about good buildup play anymore). I don't like playing this way and only use it out of pure necessity and very rarely.

 

The main tactic can be found in the opening post. The 3 situational tweaks can be downloaded here:

433 Burnum CTRL.fmf Control tactic

433 Burnum HURRY.fmf Hurry Up tactic

433 Burnum SUS.fmf Shut Up Shop tactic

 

Other tweaks I might use at times:

- Against a classic 442 I tick "focus play through the middle" as that is where the weakness of the 442 is (unless they have 2 defensive roles in their MC positions). If we fail to create enough chances, I remove it after 25-30 minutes.

- Against narrow formations that use attacking wingbacks (e.g. 343, 3412, 3421) I manually instruct my wingers to man-mark their wingbacks (use the "mark specific player" option, do not use the "mark specific position" option).

- Against formations with only 1 striker and no players in the AMC/AML/AMR positions (e.g. 451 formation) I usually switch the HB to a DLP. We don't need the additional security of a HB against only 1 immediate scoring threat. Our 2 centrebacks should be able to handle the single striker, leaving our DM to take a more creative role in possession. The DLP role still holds position in the centre of the pitch, so he's still the pivot.

- Against formations with 2 strikers and 1 AMC (e.g. 3412, 442 narrow diamond) I usually instruct my HB to man-mark the opposing AMC (again: use the "mark specific player" option for this).

- If I don't have good enough players in the IWB positions but I have a good/creative DM, I might consider switching responsibilites around: switch the IWB roles do defensive duty (this automatically removes "take more risks" PI) and switch the HB to a playmaking role that fits your player (DLP, RPM, REG). This turns the DM into your deep creator ("Quarterback") with both IWB protecting him. However, if the opposing teams manages to man-mark your DM out of the game you'll probably struggle to get the ball upfield consistently.

- I set OI on a game-to-game basis. They depend on too many factors to have a one-size-fits-all-approach. Generally, I tend to press fullbacks/wingbacks and tight mark any playmaker roles. I usually show all players to the weaker foot unless a player is either-footed (yes, I manually check all 11 players in the opponent's lineup before each game).

- If the opposing team is parking the bus, sitting deep without any intent of attacking, then we might as well untick "pass into space". If they park the bus there won't be any space available to pass into, we're just wasting possession.

- I consider this a work-in-progress, so there could be additional tweaks in the future...

 

 

Constructive feedback is appreciated! Feel free to try out the tactics and/or create your own versions or tweaks. Again - these tactics are not intended to be plug-and-play for instant success with anyone. We're trying to implement a very specific playing style. Feel free to use my tactics as a base from which you can tweak/create your own tactics. Any help to improve the system is appreciated.

Edited December 9, 2022 by burnum

[burnum]

In this video a lot of the ideas I had in mind creating the tactic are explained. The video can be subdivided into 4 parts:

1. What is positional play?
2. Example: Barca under Pep (I could imagine creating a tactic like this in the future)
3. Example: Man City in Pep's earlier years (that's basically what I wanted to create in this thread)
4. Example: Real Madrid 2016/2017

Video link: 

 

[Skywalk3r83]

This is a good read, thanks for sharing!

[burnum]

Full season Ajax - playthrough, not just holliday-sim: Went unbeaten for 32 games, then lost at Feyenoord on the penultimate gameday, when we were already crowned champions and played a lot of youngsters. 67% possession over the course of the season, Brobbey scored the most goals in the league while rotating in and out of the 1st team. In the Champions League we finished top of the group, then knocked out Napoli and lost to Real Madrid after overtime in the quarter finals. Won the Dutch Cup as well (3-0 against AZ in the final). Only transfers I made was selling Conceicao and bringing in Ziyech on loan and replacing Edson Alvarez with Van de Ven in the winter transfer window (Alvarez wanted to leave and was unhappy). Aside from that we played a bunch of young guys from the academy, paired with some (mostly homegrown) veterans. The Ajax Way...

 

Schedule for the second half of the season:

Edited December 10, 2022 by burnum

[burnum]

Did some further testing and came up with some changes to the tactics that will definitely improve performance. I will continue to work on it and probably post the new version tomorrow.

 

I might be onto something...

[wwffan2]

This looks fantastic thanks please what background pack and skin do you use thanks 

[burnum]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb wwffan2:

This looks fantastic thanks please what background pack and skin do you use thanks 

Thanks. The skin is called Flut Skin Dark. I downloaded the skin and all the background files at sortitoutsi.

[chipspice1974]

Sounds good. I will test this for when v2 is out mate.

[burnum]

Alright, here we go...

 

Initially I just wanted to make some tweaks to my 433 Burnum tactics as I saw some things that I felt could be improved. Then "some tweaks" turned into "some more tweaks" and in the end I came up with what basically is an entirely new tactic. While the 433 Burnum (see first 3 posts in this thread) was build around using two IWB as the main deep creators and using true wingers to stretch the defense horizontally, this new setup has more resemblance with the way a basic 433 plays - thus the name: 433 Base

 

Our key concepts/goals for creating the tactics still apply:

• 433 formation
• possession-based football
• a mostly symmetric base-setup which fits multiple teams and is not custom-made for one particular team
• I wanted a system where I could make simple adjustments by simply adjusting mentality a notch up or down

 

So what are the changes and why did I make them?

In my previous 433 Burnum tactics the two IWB were used as deep creators and the DM was mainly a third defender. The problem was that if the opponent is sitting deep the front 5 could become isolated as there was no link between the buildup and the front 5. In my initial thought process I decided to use Wingers to stretch defenses. The problem is that these Wingers tend to stay wide a bit too much, which could isolate the striker in the middle.

So there were 2 main goals I wanted to achieve with this new setup (and another one that was a consequence of the changes):

1. Creating a link between the buildup and the final third phase - this was done by switching one of the Mezzalas to a BBM role. The BBM has the PI to "run wide with the ball", so he still behaves a bit like a second Mezzala once he has the ball - he can still make runs into the left half space. But in the initial buildup phase he comes a lot deeper than the Mezzala, almost working as a second pivot. Most systems are divided into single pivot (e.g. Man City) or double pivot (e.g. Bayern) systems. In this case I created something I'd call "one-and-a-half pivots": We have a main pivot in the DLP and we have the BBM who works as a tweener between a second pivot and a half-space player.
2. Getting the wing players more involved in the final third - this was achieved by switching them from Wingers to Inside Forwards. Both IF still have the "stay wider" PI, so they still stretch the defense and provide width in the buildup phase. But once they get on the ball they now cut inside and become much more of a threat than the Wingers were. Think of the IF-at role as an Arjen Robben role while the W-at was more like Ryan Giggs (both were great players but Robben was far more dangerous to score while Giggs was more of a creator). With these 2 changes I found that the left IWB got into the way of the BBM too much, so another change was needed:
3. Getting rid of the IWB roles in favour of a more traditional deep distributor - I still want the fullbacks to help in the buildup phase, so turning them into too much of an attacking/aggressive role was not an option, as we'd risk isolating the back 3 (2 CB & DM) too much in case they're getting pressed. We need the fullbacks as an outlet in the buildup. So I turned them into FB-su and gave them the PI "sit narrower". Once they have the ball I want them to move forward and get the attention of opposing players - we want the opponent to press us, as this opens more space behind the initial press and we are confident that our players have enough individual quality to play out against most teams.

 

How does it look like on the pitch?

Average positions from a league game against Leverkusen (one of the better teams in Germany). In the yellow circle you can see #8 (Goretzka) dropping deep into midfield. That's the BBM role. He now works as a link between the back 5 and the front 4. This link was missing in the 433 Burnum tactics. Also, see how both IF (7 and 17) still provide width - they only cut inside to become dangerous once they're on the ball.

 

So now that we've got 2 different tactics - which is better?

Easy answer: it depends... If the opponent wants to play football and does not just sit back and defend, 433 Burnum is still a viable option - that's why it worked so well in my Paderborn test (see OP) - most teams came up and tried to press us. Against opponents who like to sit deep and defend the new tactic (433 Base) is probably better suited. But generally, it all depends on what tactic suits your players better. The new version is probably easier to install with most teams, as most teams already have fullbacks in place and 1 DLP is easier to get than 2 IWB.

 

TACTICS DOWNLOAD:

433 Base.fmf

 

I'll also update the opening post and provide a download there.

 

In the next post I'll post some situational tweaks, including 2 or 3 downloadable files.

Edited December 11, 2022 by burnum

[burnum]

Possible tweaks to the tactics:

• The DM role is the one role I change from game to game, based on opposition. In the downloadable tactic he's set as a DLP-de, which is the role I probably use the most. But I change this role quite a bit. Against teams who play 2 strikers and 1 AMC (e.g. 3412, 442 narrow diamond) I change him to HB-de (so he drops deeper between the centrebacks). Against teams who just sit back and park the bus I change him to a DLP-su.
• If the opponent takes your DM out of the game (e.g. by man marking him) you could switch the DR to an IWB-su to get him more involved in the buildup. But do not switch the DL to IWB (he'll get into the way of the BBM).
• Against opponents who only park the bus and never press, we can send the fullbacks higher up the pitch. This can be achieved either with the PI "get further forward" or by simply switching from FB-su to WB-su.
• You can swap the BBM and MEZ roles if that suits your team better. The reason I put the BBM to the left was because with Bayern I have Davies at DL and he has the "gets forward whenever possible" trait. I wanted the BBM on his side, as the BBM offers a bit more cover than a MEZ. But you could swap these roles if it suits your team.
• Against narrow formations that use attacking wingbacks (e.g. 343, 3412, 3421) I manually instruct my wingers to man-mark their wingbacks (use the "mark specific player" option, do not use the "mark specific position" option).
• If the opposing team is parking the bus, sitting deep without any intent of attacking, then we might as well untick "pass into space". If they park the bus there won't be any space available to pass into, we're just wasting possession.
• If your front 5 are getting too many yellow cards, just remove "tackle harder" as their PI. I have it set for the front 5 to improve pressing/gegenpressing but it's not a necessity.
• I set OI on a game-to-game basis. They depend on too many factors to have a one-size-fits-all-approach. Generally, I tend to press fullbacks/wingbacks and tight mark any playmaker roles. I usually show all players to the weaker foot unless a player is either-footed (yes, I manually check all 11 players in the opponent's lineup before each game).

 

General tweaks for special in-game situations:

1) home/away game setups: I usually switch to Attacking mentality (unless it's a very tough opponent) for most home games. When playing away from home I usually start with Positive mentality. If we're playing away at a very tough opponent (e.g. Champions League at Real Madrid), I'd start at Balanced or even Cautious mentality. If we have a cupcake game, I might occasionally start at Attacking mentality against far inferior teams (e.g. early round cup games away at lower division sides, maybe even league games against clear-cut bottom-of-the-table teams).

2) Control tactics: Once I'm content with the score in-game I switch to my CTRL version of the tactic. It's based on removing risk and controlling and seeing out the game. In normal league games I usually switch to this tactic if I'm up by 2 goals. We focus on keeping possession - if we have the ball, the other team can't score. D-Line drops a tad deeper to remove the risk of the over-the-top ball. Mentality, width, tempo are all decreased a notch, "pass into space" is unticked to minimize unnecessary turnovers. The "take more risk" PI on both FB is removed for the same purpose. Our DNA is still the same: possession-based football with the ball, high pressing against the ball. We just turned it down a notch. This also helps if you have a crowded schedule with the next match coming up in 2 or 3 days, as it decreases intensity quite a bit.

3) Hurry Up tactics: This is basically the opposite of the control version - I use it if we're chasing a goal late in the game. I usually switch to this tactic if I'm down by 1 or 2 goals with around 20 to 30 minutes to go (more like 20 if we're down 1 goal, more like 30 if we need 2 goals - which you should try to prevent in the first place). Occasionally I might also use this late in a game when drawing against inferior teams that we should beat, but be aware that it comes at a certain risk. Attacking mentality, less focus on possession, heavier focus on penetration and shooting. The DM position is switched to DLP-su to offer more support going forward (could even be switched to a Regista if you want to be even more aggressive). The "shoot less often" PI is taken off all attacking players. Directness & Tempo are increased, "be more expressive" is ticked, "work ball into box" is unticked - we don't care about possession anymore, we need to score as soon as possible!

I decided not to create a true SUS setup for this tactic. That's just not the way I want to play. I use the CTRL version to see out games and turn down mentality/pressing/LOE while turning up time wasting. You should be good to go with the base version plus the CTRL and HURRY setups.

The control and hurry up versions can be found here:

433 Base CTRL.fmf

433 Base HURRY.fmf

 

What players are we looking for in each position?

In comparison to the 433 Burnum tactics, the roles of the Keeper, the Centrebacks, the Mezzala and the Striker remain unchanged. All other positions require different players than the other tactical setup.

SK-de: Ideally, we want a good allround keeper here. He helps building up from the back and should be able to rush out to clear some long balls over the defensive line (high DL). Just get the best possible keeper you can who is somewhat comfortable on the ball. Perfect fits are Neuer, ter Stegen, Ederson or Allison; budget fit would be someone like Livakovic.

BPD-de: Tactical system is designed to be used with a top team (I had Bayern & Ajax in mind when setting up the tactics), so we won't be forced back into our own area too much. Due to our high DL we need centrebacks who are fast (Speed, Acc) to run with opposing strikers in case of over-the-top balls. They're also an important part of our buildup-process, so they need to be decent on the ball. The guys at Bayern (Upamecano, de Ligt, Lucas Hernandez, Pavard) are all perfect fits for this. When I designed the role I had David Alaba in mind (during his later Bayern days when he played as a central defender). If you have a centreback who isn't comfortable on the ball, you might want to switch this role to CD-d.

FB-su: You want a balanced player here. He needs athleticism to run with speedy wingers when defending, he needs on the ball skills (passing, technique, first touch, decisions) and he also needs off the ball skills to make himself available. The trait "dribbles down the left/right flank" is nice to have here. If you have a fullback who's not a good passer, you might consider unticking his "take more risks" PI. When playing with Bayern, I remove that PI for Fonzi Davies at DL but keep it for the DR position (usually Mazraoui or Sabitzer, who are both good at passing).

DM role: As mentioned before, this is the position where I tend to change roles based on gameplanning. But generally this is your main deep creator, so you want someone who has the passing skills and also the mentals (decisions, composure, concentration, off the ball) to be effective. He also needs to protect the Centrebacks, so he should be adept in defending (positioning, tackling). This is more a stationary role in the centre of the pitch, so you can get away without a ton of athleticism here (think of Xabi Alonso or Fernandinho in the late stages of their careers). Declan Rice, Daley Blind or Joshua Kimmich are perfect fits for this role.

BBM-su: You need an allrounder here. I consider him a tweener between a pivot and a half-space attacker. He does a lot of running, so stamina, teamwork & workrate should be high. He needs to be a good passer but also needs off the ball skills to attack space. Goretzka, Bellingham, Milinkovic-Savic, Tchouameni are all great in this role. If you're on a budget, you could try to get Ilic (Hellas Verona) or Seiwald (Salzburg). Donny van de Beek usually gets transfer-listed and can be had on the cheap 1 or 2 years into the game to fit this role. A ton of players fit here, you should be able to find someone who suits you.

MEZ-at: He is basically a half-space attacker. He needs to be good on the ball (passing, vision, decisions, technique, first touch) but also off the ball. Kevin de Bruyne is the role-model, of course, but unless you're playing as Man City, you probably won't be able to get him. Musiala/Müller are all very good in this role for Bayern. You might want to scout for an AMC and retrain him to MC here. Can be played both, on his natural or on his inverted foot. Playing him on the side of his natural foot (e.g. right-footed player as the Mezzala on the right side) makes sense if you have a player who is good at dribbling and crossing. Playing him on the inverted side (e.g. right-footed player on the left) helps if you want him to switch the ball to the other side or if they are a threat from long-shots (in that case remove the "shoot less often" PI). These guys run a lot, so they need stamina and workrate.

IF-at: Just what a good Inside Forward does... Run down the sideline, offer width, then cut inside and score or pass. Think prime Arjen Robben (or think Salah at Liverpool). Tons of examples here. Speed, dribbling, off the ball skills, finishing are all required. Often these guys are retrained strikers. Make sure you play them on their inverted foot (e.g. left-footed player on the right). The traits "cuts inside from left/right wing" is great to have here. Also the trait "runs with ball often" if the player is good at dribbling.

PF-at: Just play your best goal-scoring striker here, if he has decent stamina, workrate and off the ball skills. If you have a big guy who's good in the air, make sure to switch crosses from "low" to "mixed" in team instructions (but do not use him as a Target Forward under any circumstances, as this completely changes the entire buildup phase of the tactics). If you have a Messi-esque type of player, you could play him here and switch the role to DLF-su or even F9 to get him more involved in the buildup play. If you have a "normal" striker, I'd advise to keep the PF-at role for now.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by burnum

[jedidja]

Great write up's for these tactics. I found them really useful. I'll try these tactics out with my new Ajax save

[burnum]

vor 1 Minute schrieb jedidja:

Great write up's for these tactics. I found them really useful. I'll try these tactics out with my new Ajax save

Thanks. Let me know if you need some input. Ajax was one of the teams I had in mind when creating the tactics, so they should work well with Ajax.

[burnum]

Perfect example how 433 Base shifts into what could be seen as a 244 shape in possession against teams who defend deep. This screenshot was taken from a league game against Mainz, who came out in a 532 and tried to park the bus. I switched the DMC to DLP-su (Kimmich, #6) and told both fullbacks to "get further forward". See how the Mezzala (Gravenberch, #38) almost plays as a second striker, creating a 4-man line with the striker (13) and both Inside Forwards (39 & 7).

We won the game 4-0, so I switched to the CTRL tactic at halftime (already up 3-0) to save some energy, as the next game is just 3 days away and the Bayern squad - while having outstanding quality in the first 14-17 players - doesn't have too many options to rotate if you have a few injuries.

Edited December 11, 2022 by burnum

[loisvale]

Very interesting and thanks for sharing. I have a very similar set up.However I have a wb support on the right and fb attack on left. IW attack on the right and IF support on the left. I do play a PF attack but often an AF attack up front as well. Mostly play with a DM support( sometimes an Anchor if under pressure) and one of the defenders is a CD rather than BPD. I have less PIs but do have sit narrower for the WB an FB and the IF sits wider. Have a high , mid and low block versions. 
 

interested that your mid block control version is on the same positive mentality and DL as your base. Do you ever drop it?

finally what do you do when players sent off? I usually change the BBM to cm support and remove the DM. 

[burnum]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb loisvale:

interested that your mid block control version is on the same positive mentality and DL as your base. Do you ever drop it?

finally what do you do when players sent off? I usually change the BBM to cm support and remove the DM. 

The control version of the tactic is not to be mistaken with a shut-up-shop tactic. In the control version we're trying to hold onto our lead by keeping the ball away from the opposition. Depending on opposition's playstyle I might either change to a mid block (as set to in the downloadable tactic) or even keep the high block. However, there is one mistake in the CTRL tactic I put up for downloading: when playing a mid block, I untick "prevent GK short distribution" (it's still ticked in the downloadable version).

When a player gets sent off (which shouldn't happen in the first place) I usually remove the Inside Forwards and play with an additional AMC, with the instruction "focus play through the middle" and turn the fullbacks into wingbacks (unless we're leading and trying to keep the lead). Also make sure you drop mentality and remove aggressive pressing when down to 10 men. It's a lot harder to press effectively when you're outnumbered by the other team, so we focus on keeping shape in these instances.

To prevent players from being sent off I set everyone who's already booked to "ease off tackles" or I sub them if my squad is deep enough.

Edited December 17, 2022 by burnum

[loisvale]

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. 
 

Fair play to you it is a nice system. Plays football I like. Even prefer it to the one I created myself (which is rather annoying!)

Well done I really like it. 
 

Have put my 3 tactics below which may be or may be not of interest. They are similar. 

[germafrodit]

Hi, friend
I really like your tactics. thanks for this

[loisvale]

@burnum are you still using these?  I do like the football played. More challenging away from home against elite opposition though. Using the base on balanced or cautious can still be very tough which is realistic I suppose. However is using the control version rather than the base from the start a viable option in this circumstance or is better to use the base but change to an HB and Mez on support and drop into a mid block a better choice? Any tips from your own experience would be welcome. 

 

[burnum]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb loisvale:

@burnum are you still using these?  I do like the football played. More challenging away from home against elite opposition though. Using the base on balanced or cautious can still be very tough which is realistic I suppose. However is using the control version rather than the base from the start a viable option in this circumstance or is better to use the base but change to an HB and Mez on support and drop into a mid block a better choice? Any tips from your own experience would be welcome. 

 

Yes, I still use it.

I'd only use the CTRL version if you'd be content with a draw in that game. If you expect your team to win, I'd go for the normal version, but of course do some tweaks based on the respective opponent from game to game.

I'd only switch the DMC to HB-de if the opponent is pressuring your centrebacks in buildup play. If they don't pressure your backline the HB is not needed.

Against weaker opponents, when struggling to break them down, you could also switch one or both fullbacks from FB-su to WB-su, which will position them deeper in the opposing half, forcing opposing DR/DL to cover them (and, in turn, leaving the IF). But be aware that you're open against counter attacks then.

[loisvale]

8 minutes ago, burnum said:

Yes, I still use it.

I'd only use the CTRL version if you'd be content with a draw in that game. If you expect your team to win, I'd go for the normal version, but of course do some tweaks based on the respective opponent from game to game.

I'd only switch the DMC to HB-de if the opponent is pressuring your centrebacks in buildup play. If they don't pressure your backline the HB is not needed.

Against weaker opponents, when struggling to break them down, you could also switch one or both fullbacks from FB-su to WB-su, which will position them deeper in the opposing half, forcing opposing DR/DL to cover them (and, in turn, leaving the IF). But be aware that you're open against counter attacks then.

Thanks. What I was particularly interested in was if you did anything different in terms of tweaks when away to the good or elite teams? How is your save going?

[burnum]

Am 8.1.2023 um 21:28 schrieb loisvale:

Thanks. What I was particularly interested in was if you did anything different in terms of tweaks when away to the good or elite teams?

First thing I try to do is managing Mentality. Depending on home/away and the level of my opponent I start games on Balanced/Positive/Attacking. Most other tweaks are based on the opposition. What formation do they use (e.g. 433, 442, 4231)? What kind of football do they play (e.g. Gegenpress, Counter-Attacking, Wing-Play)? How do we limit their best 2 or 3 players?

Just try to think like a real manager and see each game on an individual basis, making small tweaks for each game to specialise the specific gameplan.

 

Am 8.1.2023 um 21:28 schrieb loisvale:

How is your save going?

I've abandoned my initial Bayern save after reaching a point where I was by far the biggest club in the world, winning the treble (Bundesliga, DFB Cup, Champions League) three times in a row. If you manage to bring in the best players it gets too easy at some point. I've started another save, this time with Ajax. In that save I focus on bringing players through from the own youth academy, only very rarely making transfers. We're still the biggest club in the Netherlands, winning the domestic double on a regular basis but we're not yet in the European elite in the Champions League. I usually manage to qualify for the knockout stages but then a lot is depending on the draw. We can beat teams like Leverkusen, Shakhtar Donezk or Monaco but we can't compete with the likes of Bayern, PSG, Real or whatever English team we might face. In that save I also use the 433 Base/CTRL/Hurry setup.

In another save I play as HJK in Finland but there I use an entirely different tactical setup to suit my team (my best player is a big target-man striker).

[loisvale]

Thank you very much for the response. Like you I am trying another homemade tactic and playing around with the different blocks and applying them sensibly. Working well. Enjoyed your tactic set though. Have always enjoyed you stuff. Keep posting!

[davehibb]

Great post @burnum I've been looking for a Pep Bayern 4-3-3/2-3-5 with IWBs system. My project for the weekend was to come up with something and this has certainly given me a lot of inspiration.

What I had in mind was pretty much exactly what you have here. How did you find the Mez-A as the free 8s? How was there movement, link up play and penetration?

Did you try the original version with the wide men cutting in too? If so, how did that play out?

[burnum]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb davehibb:

Great post @burnum I've been looking for a Pep Bayern 4-3-3/2-3-5 with IWBs system. My project for the weekend was to come up with something and this has certainly given me a lot of inspiration.

What I had in mind was pretty much exactly what you have here. How did you find the Mez-A as the free 8s? How was there movement, link up play and penetration?

Did you try the original version with the wide men cutting in too? If so, how did that play out?

If you're interesting in the original version, make sure you change the DM from HB to either DLP or DM. The HB role is not needed if you have 2 IWB to protect the deep centre. The free 8 roles depend on the players you have. In a perfect world I think MEZ-at is the best role in that position. However, you need really good allround players for that role, they need to be really good on the ball, off the ball and against the ball (pressing). If you don't have the players for that, you could try a combination of AP-at and BBM-su or maybe CM-at. Also, if you have a more static playmaker type in MC (think aging David Silva or Xavi) you could pair a MEZ-at with AP-su.

As for the wide men cutting in: if you use an IWB then I think it's mandatory to keep the wingers out wide. Someone needs to stretch the defense horizontally to create space for everyone else to run into. AML/AMR need be play as wide as possible ("hugs the touchline" is a great trait for those guys). If you want to use Inverted Wingers or Inside Forwards, you need to change the IWBs to wing backs to provide width (as Liverpool do with TAA & Robertson).

It's pretty simple in theory: your Striker is the central thread. Then you need one player on each side in the half-spaces and one player on each side to provide width. How you create these roles within the ME is completely up to you - that's basically the difference between my 2 versions (433 Burnum and 433 Base).