Brazil Official thread - Rumo ao Hexa

[Darth_Sidius]

It's better for Brazil to exclude foreign based players from playing national team. They are not brazilians but european players of brazilian origin. They are loyal to individual showbiz stories and their clubs, national team is only here to fulfill their individual dreams and raise their future transfers. They don't play the brazilian league style, many of them like Vini didn't play for brazilian clubs before europe or played very little role before they got sold as early as 17-18y old. You should give chance to domestic playesrs, if he want to play  for brazil he should not go to premiership in his early 20s or 18y old, if first loyality is money than be "grateful" and play for england , france, portugal etc. This players with their "european" heads are no good for brazilian football, they choke, they are mentaly weak profesional legionnaries playing for big bosses money. Give chance to domestic players, the dont need to be samba dancing kings, it does not pass anymore nor it is popular in other countries, you don't need to be ideological image for racist european fantasies.  Play something that is more distincitive for brazilian footbol last 30 years and brought good results , counter-attacking football in 4-2-2-2 (with derivations) football which was most common tactic in brazilian league. If players go early in europe for money , don't allow him to play anymore for brazil, simple as that, nothing will happen, its just a sport, no nuclear meltdown will appear. Football is team sport, no need to fullfil individual dreams, national teams should not be platform for individual marketing and individual "dream fairy tales".   Play with domestic league players, they will be more like team and they will not have problem with style and mental choking, nobody will expect from them to win the world cup, but they will still have techincal capabilities than common european player. But technique shows itself in counter-attacking football and I'm not talking about flair, just basic technique that allows players to do something quicker and effective than other player. Brazil won their world cups with mostly domestic players from brazilian league, not european starlets with brazilian names. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Darth_Sidius

[decapitated]

If Brazil excluded foreign based players from the national team you wouldn't have made out of the group or perhaps even qualified at all. 

[latrell]

8 minutes ago, Darth_Sidius said:

It's better for Brazil to exclude foreign based players from playing national team. They are not brazilians but european players of brazilian origin. They are loyal to individual showbiz stories and their clubs, national team is only here to fulfill their individual dreams and raise their future transfers. They don't play the brazilian league style, many of them like Vini didn't play for brazilian clubs before europe or played very little role before they got sold as early as 17-18y old. You should give chance to domestic playesrs, if he want to play  for brazil he should not go to premiership in his early 20s or 18y old, if first loyality is money than be "grateful" and play for england , france, portugal etc. This players with their "european" heads are no good for brazilian football, they choke, they are mentaly weak profesional legionnaries playing for big bosses money. Give chance to domestic players, the dont need to be samba dancing kings, it does not pass anymore nor it is popular in other countries, you don't need to be ideological image for racist european fantasies.  Play something that is more distincitive for brazilian footbol last 30 years and brought good results , counter-attacking football in 4-2-2-2 (with derivations) football which was most common tactic in brazilian league. If players go early in europe for money , don't allow him to play anymore for brazil, simple as that, nothing will happen, its just a sport, no nuclear meltdown will appear. Football is team sport, no need to fullfil individual dreams, national teams should not be platform for individual marketing and individual "dream fairy tales".   Play with domestic league players, they will be more like team and they will not have problem with style and mental choking, nobody will expect from them to win the world cup, but they will still have techincal capabilities than common european player. But technique shows itself in counter-attacking football and I'm not talking about flair, just basic technique that allows players to do something quicker and effective than other player. Brazil won their world cups with mostly domestic players from brazilian league, not european starlets with brazilian names. 

very interesting opinion i agree with you in many ways and feel your frustration with out knowing exactly i reckon Brazil have better wingers playing in the Brazilian league than Raphinha and Anthony.

[Darth_Sidius]

2 minutes ago, decapitated said:

If Brazil excluded foreign based players from the national team you wouldn't have made out of the group or perhaps even qualified at all. 

good, if that happen sun will not explode. But, I'm sure that they would qualify , players do not learn to play when they come to manchester city, sevilla, atalanta or southampton, brazil still have better football schools and clubs with big tradition, no expectations and clear message to foreign mercenaries for who clubs come first.  If Brazil continue to be "window for european clubs" than they will continue on the path to be average football nation.

[Darth_Sidius]

10 minutes ago, latrell said:

very interesting opinion i agree with you in many ways and feel your frustration with out knowing exactly i reckon Brazil have better wingers playing in the Brazilian league than Raphinha and Anthony.

Prvo pozdrav sunarodnjak 
I watch brazilian league for almost 40 years (last 5-8 years little bit less), in 80s i got VHS games of brazilian football league from my friend in Brazil, as kids in my neighborhood we were obsessed  with this VHS records. I knew almost every player in "big 12" clubs, so i know that there was (at least until 2010) concentration of quality in domestic league that would not be worse than their european players. I can bet that brazil league selection would trash brazilian national team in 2014 with big margin, of course they would not choke , choking is common with south american european players , you rarely see this in brazilian league or clubs playing copa libertadores . For exampe Gabigol Barbossa is better striker than any european striker in brazilian team.  Brazil would have healthier national team if they would give up on craizy expectations and play style that is well-known for their players in domestic leagues, people will have more in common with players who have more humble approach, and lets be honest quality is not so differental that it will be a disaster. These players would work harder and there would be less expectations for mental breakdowns and mental choking.

[PaulHartman71]

42 minutes ago, Darth_Sidius said:

It's better for Brazil to exclude foreign based players from playing national team. They are not brazilians but european players of brazilian origin. They are loyal to individual showbiz stories and their clubs, national team is only here to fulfill their individual dreams and raise their future transfers. They don't play the brazilian league style, many of them like Vini didn't play for brazilian clubs before europe or played very little role before they got sold as early as 17-18y old. You should give chance to domestic playesrs, if he want to play  for brazil he should not go to premiership in his early 20s or 18y old, if first loyality is money than be "grateful" and play for england , france, portugal etc. This players with their "european" heads are no good for brazilian football, they choke, they are mentaly weak profesional legionnaries playing for big bosses money. Give chance to domestic players, the dont need to be samba dancing kings, it does not pass anymore nor it is popular in other countries, you don't need to be ideological image for racist european fantasies.  Play something that is more distincitive for brazilian footbol last 30 years and brought good results , counter-attacking football in 4-2-2-2 (with derivations) football which was most common tactic in brazilian league. If players go early in europe for money , don't allow him to play anymore for brazil, simple as that, nothing will happen, its just a sport, no nuclear meltdown will appear. Football is team sport, no need to fullfil individual dreams, national teams should not be platform for individual marketing and individual "dream fairy tales".   Play with domestic league players, they will be more like team and they will not have problem with style and mental choking, nobody will expect from them to win the world cup, but they will still have techincal capabilities than common european player. But technique shows itself in counter-attacking football and I'm not talking about flair, just basic technique that allows players to do something quicker and effective than other player. Brazil won their world cups with mostly domestic players from brazilian league, not european starlets with brazilian names. 

The overall point you’re making is fixed entirely by having a better tactician and disciplined manager in charge. 
 

I agree with the general point you’re making about the players not being disciplined enough on the pitch and most of the forwards being more interested in personal glory and goals/assists etc, but look at the above image. It’s 115 minutes into a World Cup knockout game, you’re 1-0 up and you have 6 forward players in the final 3rd whilst your opposition is desperate for an equaliser. That boils down to the manager more than the players. 

Tite doesn’t seem to be a very conservative manager at all from what I’ve seen at this World Cup.  In the Serbia game when you went 2-0 he put Fred on for Paqueta then made like for like subs on all the forwards who were all desperate to get a goal etc instead of managing the win. They never seemed great at keeping the ball the entire tournament. Better sides in your group would’ve punished you earlier on. They narrowly beat Switzerland but the rotated side lost to Cameroon and I think the South Korea game being so easy gave them a false sense of security. 

I’m assuming Brazil wouldn’t consider a foreign manager and even if they hired one it would be tricky for them due to the pressure and them not being Brazilian, but if you went into this tournament with a coach with experience at managing in the top level in Europe who was more pragmatic and disciplined with the squad I think a lot of the problems you mention wouldn’t have been there. 

I think even someone who is past their best like Jose Mourinho gets you to at least the Semi Final with this squad. He would set you up more compact and not allow any of the big name players to not work for the team. Given he speaks the language and can handle big egos and manage games etc I actually think he’d be the best choice for your next manager and I think he would probably take it.  

[PMLF]

2 hours ago, PaulHartman71 said:

I’m assuming Brazil wouldn’t consider a foreign manager

They are considering the possibility of a foreign manager but unless they hire someone like Guardiola, Abel Ferreira or Jorge Jesus, they won’t find anyone people here would respect.

And I also would prefer a more Brazil-based squad, it’s not like having most of the squad being based abroad (as has been the case since 2006) helped us much anyway. So if you are going to lose, at least let’s value the players based in Brazil instead of foreign league players.

[craigcwwe]

4 minutes ago, PMLF said:

And I also would prefer a more Brazil-based squad, it’s not like having most of the squad being based abroad (as has been the case since 2006) helped us much anyway. So if you are going to lose, at least let’s value the players based in Brazil instead of foreign league players.

But that's just not going to happen is it. 

[PMLF]

Just now, craigcwwe said:

But that's just not going to happen is it. 

No, but it should!

[PMLF]

2 hours ago, PaulHartman71 said:

I’m assuming Brazil wouldn’t consider a foreign manager and even if they hired one it would be tricky for them due to the pressure and them not being Brazilian, but if you went into this tournament with a coach with experience at managing in the top level in Europe who was more pragmatic and disciplined with the squad I think a lot of the problems you mention wouldn’t have been there. 

I think even someone who is past their best like Jose Mourinho gets you to at least the Semi Final with this squad. He would set you up more compact and not allow any of the big name players to not work for the team. Given he speaks the language and can handle big egos and manage games etc I actually think he’d be the best choice for your next manager and I think he would probably take it.  

Germany, Belgium and Spain were eliminated early despite having squads capable of doing a lot better and despite having European managers (obviously), so I am not convinced a foreign manager would necessarily make much difference.

[PaulHartman71]

1 hour ago, PMLF said:

They are considering the possibility of a foreign manager but unless they hire someone like Guardiola, Abel Ferreira or Jorge Jesus, they won’t find anyone people here would respect.

And I also would prefer a more Brazil-based squad, it’s not like having most of the squad being based abroad (as has been the case since 2006) helped us much anyway. So if you are going to lose, at least let’s value the players based in Brazil instead of foreign league players.

 

I don't really see how it works in practice though. With the greatest respect to Brazilian domestic football, I think more or less as soon as anyone below a certain age (say 24-25) starts performing well or attracts attention they're going to gain interest from Europe and elsewhere, which in most cases will see the club and player want the move sooner or later due to the finances involved. 

The South American qualifying and Copa America for example will take place 2-3 years before the next World Cup. If they did use more players from the Brazilian league or all players from there surely the increased exposure will just fast-track moves abroad for a lot of those players. Likewise if say hypothetically Brazil did have an all Brazilian league side at the next World Cup, are all of those players going to be 100 percent committed to the team etc like a Croatia, Morocco type side, or will a lot of those players be keen to impress to put themselves in the shop window for a move to Europe with a good showing? Will they handle the pressure of playing on the big stage like that?

I don't really think you can compare pre 2000s Brazil squads with now as the landscape of football has changed so much in the last 3 decades. Modern scouting involves global networks. In the early 2000s for example a player like Gabriel Martinelli is probably still playing in Brazil or has possibly only just been bought/signed by a club in Europe, but the way modern scouting works means he was hot property by the time he signed 18 with clubs in England and Italy after him already. 

I get your point that since the 2006 World Cup you've not had as much success, but for me the biggest problem you have is not less domestic based players but a lack of experience and talented Brazilian managers to choose from. None of the managers you've had in that time frame had much experience at the top level. I'm not saying you need to have that, but it certainly helps. Ideally if you've not got an experienced manager you need to play more pragmatically at tournaments.

The squad of players you have is one of the best in the World Cup, your depth of talent is far greater than Belgium or Germany like you mention and I would say Spain as well, but were the tactics and selections Tite went with the most pragmatic or best tactically to beat everyone you had to play? In my opinion not really, it only really worked against Serbia and a South Korean side who couldn't have set up tactically to play in an easier way for your side to deal with if Tite had been managing them as well. 

The reason you haven't won this tournament is because you can't win a big international tournament or domestic league or European trophy with a midfield two of Casemiro and Paqueta, with two attacking wingers, Neymar and an attacking striker. PSG have learnt the hard way in the Champions League that you can't carry 2-3 forwards who don't want to do the work defensively/pressing in top level football anymore. 

Real Madrid for example won the Champions League with a midfield 3 of Casemiro, Kroos and Modric. I'm not saying you have to play a 3 man midfield, but setting up like he did was going to get you found out against a better side sooner rather than later.

 

[PMLF]

33 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

 

I don't really see how it works in practice though. With the greatest respect to Brazilian domestic football, I think more or less as soon as anyone below a certain age (say 24-25) starts performing well or attracts attention they're going to gain interest from Europe and elsewhere, which in most cases will see the club and player want the move sooner or later due to the finances involved. 

The South American qualifying and Copa America for example will take place 2-3 years before the next World Cup. If they did use more players from the Brazilian league or all players from there surely the increased exposure will just fast-track moves abroad for a lot of those players. Likewise if say hypothetically Brazil did have an all Brazilian league side at the next World Cup, are all of those players going to be 100 percent committed to the team etc like a Croatia, Morocco type side, or will a lot of those players be keen to impress to put themselves in the shop window for a move to Europe with a good showing? Will they handle the pressure of playing on the big stage like that?

I don't really think you can compare pre 2000s Brazil squads with now as the landscape of football has changed so much in the last 3 decades. Modern scouting involves global networks. In the early 2000s for example a player like Gabriel Martinelli is probably still playing in Brazil or has possibly only just been bought/signed by a club in Europe, but the way modern scouting works means he was hot property by the time he signed 18 with clubs in England and Italy after him already. 

I get your point that since the 2006 World Cup you've not had as much success, but for me the biggest problem you have is not less domestic based players but a lack of experience and talented Brazilian managers to choose from. None of the managers you've had in that time frame had much experience at the top level. I'm not saying you need to have that, but it certainly helps. Ideally if you've not got an experienced manager you need to play more pragmatically at tournaments.

The squad of players you have is one of the best in the World Cup, your depth of talent is far greater than Belgium or Germany like you mention and I would say Spain as well, but were the tactics and selections Tite went with the most pragmatic or best tactically to beat everyone you had to play? In my opinion not really, it only really worked against Serbia and a South Korean side who couldn't have set up tactically to play in an easier way for your side to deal with if Tite had been managing them as well. 

The reason you haven't won this tournament is because you can't win a big international tournament or domestic league or European trophy with a midfield two of Casemiro and Paqueta, with two attacking wingers, Neymar and an attacking striker. PSG have learnt the hard way in the Champions League that you can't carry 2-3 forwards who don't want to do the work defensively/pressing in top level football anymore. 

Real Madrid for example won the Champions League with a midfield 3 of Casemiro, Kroos and Modric. I'm not saying you have to play a 3 man midfield, but setting up like he did was going to get you found out against a better side sooner rather than later.

 

There are far more peaking players in Brazil nowadays than a few years ago as the likes of Flamengo and Palmeiras can pay much higher wages, so their squads are fairly stable. But no doubt there is always a risk of Brazil-based players moving during the WC cycle and thus the squad might need to change over time, which would harm results. 

But my point is not so much thinking we could win with a Brazil-based squad, I suspect the quarterfinals is more or less (luck, etc aside) the normal 'best' we could do, which is not too different from current results. Since we are going to lose anyway, at least we would have a team that feel Brazilian.

As for the manager, Tite made mistakes like the ones you mentioned, but foreign managers made mistakes too. We have also had many foreign (European and Argentine ones) managers in Brazilian football in recent years and they didn't do much better in general than local managers, so I have doubts that just hiring a foreigner would improve things. We had Paulo Sousa from Portugal as Flamengo manager and he benched Pedro because he didn't know how to play Gabigol and Pedro together...Then Dorival Júnior (Brazilian) came and made them play together.

Obviously a really top one like Guardiola could do very well, but that kind of manager is out of reach. So we would probably end up with some manager from abroad who is not really any better than what we already have here (someone like Paulo Sousa mentioned above).

if I were to choose the new manager of Brazil, I would choose Fernando Diniz from Fluminense.

Edited December 10, 2022 by PMLF