When to move a player aged 15-17 from U18 to U23 team?

[danej]

Or similar for other countries, for example from U19 to reserve team if you manage in Denmark.

 

On one hand you could argue that when the player is good enough to get regular game time with the U23's, you might as well move him there so he gets match time on a higher level.

 

On the other hand I guess you could argue that you should keep your players aged 15-17 in the U18 team untill they turn 18. Because traning is the most important part, and perhaps they get better training tailored to their aged in the U18's.

 

I don't know about any of this, I am just speculating, theorizing. I am much to inexperienced with the game to have a clue about this.

[coach vahid]

I don't want to be ungracious, but theres a lot report on this theme, here and there...

You can use google.

 

[glengarry224]

Depends upon what each player most needs and each team's coaching and personalities too. 

If your player has good talent but crap personality, you need to fix that first, even if it means promoting him to the senior team to be mentored by very strong senior players (if you have them). 

If it's general development, maybe slight personality improvements needed, and my U18 has good coaches - in particular, coaches and teammates with good personalities - and I have pretty good training facilities, I'd keep them there.  If I can afford it, I'll keep around, and even sign, youth players without the requisite potential if they have great personalities.

If a player seems to be stalling, maybe move him up.

Edited August 4, 2022 by glengarry224

[danej]

18 hours ago, coach vahid said:

I don't want to be ungracious, but theres a lot report on this theme, here and there...

You can use google.

 

I find this response disrespectful. Especially since it doesn't seem true. I have been googling this and don't find anything useful. Just a few posts here and there, and the people discussing it don't really seem to know what they are talking about.

My impression is that disrespectful comments like this are rather common on this forum and I wonder why admins tolerate it. But that is not for me to decide. I just think it is a shame. The general tone discourages discussion.

 

But on the other hand there are many pleasant and knowledgeable users who give their input as well. So that makes it worth it in spite of some bad apples.

Edited August 5, 2022 by danej

[herne79]

@danej There’s not really a straightforward answer I’m afraid because each player will develop differently.  Generally speaking (and generalisations aren’t always a good thing) if I have a young player who I think looks like he’s a potential good first team player I’ll put him into my first team squad at 17-18 years old without even touching my U23s.  I’ll give him some (limited) first team match experience and make him available for the U23s.  I don’t worry too much about his first team training routine vs his U23 match commitments because he’ll still be getting decent training and match time, just not in an “optimal” manner.  If he needs it I’ll also put him into a Mentoring group with highly influential first teamers.

Players who I’m doubtful of their potential I’ll move into the U23s.  I’ll watch their development and most of my players I loan out come from that squad as well.  I usually don’t get any that develop into first team regulars from there but several go on to be squad or back up players.  Most eventually get sold off though.

I find that to be an effective approach.  It’s not “optimal” by any means but I’m not bothered by that and I don’t think you are either 👍.

One final thought on youngster personalities - their starting personalities when they appear on youth intake day are primarily influenced by your Head of Youth Development. That’s not to say if your HOYD is highly professional you’ll start producing hosts of highly professional youngsters, but he will have an influence on them.  It can help give them a kick start.  Also worth noting the HOYD doubles up as a coach, so decent coaching attributes are also a plus to have.

By way of example, below is who I consider my hottest youth prospect to be.  He's just turned 17 and is currently in my U18 squad.  I'll probably move him straight into my first team squad at the end of the season, giving him some sub appearances and possibly a couple of starts against easy opposition next season.  The reason I'm bypassing the U23s is because to my eye he's on the verge of the first team - for his position he has decent tackling, marking and positioning already.  His mentals are good and whilst his strength needs work his physical attributes are ok.  So even though his coach report says "currently operating at a national league level" I think that come the end of the season he'll be ok for the odd first team appearance (and play for the U23s).

Note - I don't pay too much attention to coach opinions.  That perhaps comes from my own experience of the game, however coach opinions are limited by game AI and as such don't really look at the big picture or understand what we want from our players.  They'll pick responses from set criteria which doesn't always tie in with my criteria.  Clearly I wouldn't start this kid against Liverpool or Man City, but if we're winning 3-0 with half an hour to play or up against low league opposition in a cup then he'll be ok - but the AI can't recognise that.

Anyway, I'll also put him into a Mentoring group in the first team, however even though his personality is "Unambitious" I'm not too bothered by that because he's steadily (and rapidly) developing.  Mentoring will (hopefully) help but he's ok as he is already.

Edited August 4, 2022 by herne79

[danej]

15 hours ago, herne79 said:

@danej There’s not really a straightforward answer I’m afraid because each player will develop differently.  Generally speaking (and generalisations aren’t always a good thing) if I have a young player who I think looks like he’s a potential good first team player I’ll put him into my first team squad at 17-18 years old without even touching my U23s.  I’ll give him some (limited) first team match experience and make him available for the U23s.  I don’t worry too much about his first team training routine vs his U23 match commitments because he’ll still be getting decent training and match time, just not in an “optimal” manner.  If he needs it I’ll also put him into a Mentoring group with highly influential first teamers.

Players who I’m doubtful of their potential I’ll move into the U23s.  I’ll watch their development and most of my players I loan out come from that squad as well.  I usually don’t get any that develop into first team regulars from there but several go on to be squad or back up players.  Most eventually get sold off though.

I find that to be an effective approach.  It’s not “optimal” by any means but I’m not bothered by that and I don’t think you are either 👍.

One final thought on youngster personalities - their starting personalities when they appear on youth intake day are primarily influenced by your Head of Youth Development. That’s not to say if your HOYD is highly professional you’ll start producing hosts of highly professional youngsters, but he will have an influence on them.  It can help give them a kick start.  Also worth noting the HOYD doubles up as a coach, so decent coaching attributes are also a plus to have.

By way of example, below is who I consider my hottest youth prospect to be.  He's just turned 17 and is currently in my U18 squad.  I'll probably move him straight into my first team squad at the end of the season, giving him some sub appearances and possibly a couple of starts against easy opposition next season.  The reason I'm bypassing the U23s is because to my eye he's on the verge of the first team - for his position he has decent tackling, marking and positioning already.  His mentals are good and whilst his strength needs work his physical attributes are ok.  So even though his coach report says "currently operating at a national league level" I think that come the end of the season he'll be ok for the odd first team appearance (and play for the U23s).

Note - I don't pay too much attention to coach opinions.  That perhaps comes from my own experience of the game, however coach opinions are limited by game AI and as such don't really look at the big picture or understand what we want from our players.  They'll pick responses from set criteria which doesn't always tie in with my criteria.  Clearly I wouldn't start this kid against Liverpool or Man City, but if we're winning 3-0 with half an hour to play or up against low league opposition in a cup then he'll be ok - but the AI can't recognise that.

Anyway, I'll also put him into a Mentoring group in the first team, however even though his personality is "Unambitious" I'm not too bothered by that because he's steadily (and rapidly) developing.  Mentoring will (hopefully) help but he's ok as he is already.

Great input, thanks. I think that implicitly you also say that you keep pretty much anyone aged 15-17, and certainly those aged 15-16 in your U18 squad? If yes, why? Why not move the better ones to the U23 squad if they are at least as good as the better U23 players? I don't doubt that your choice is a sound one, I am just curious. I would guess that it is about overall development. That perhaps your experience is that such players develop at least as well if you just keep them in the U18 squad. But I am surely curious as to what is your rationale behind that choice.

[Dutchy1983]

I never actually use the U23s squad for development, U18s until 18, then first team squad and mentoring, make available to play in the U23s. If they aren't up to it at 18 loan, then sell. If huge gap between current and potential at 18 to make up loan them out to teams with great facilities and a manager invested in youth!

[danej]

13 minutes ago, Dutchy1983 said:

I never actually use the U23s squad for development, U18s until 18, then first team squad and mentoring, make available to play in the U23s. If they aren't up to it at 18 loan, then sell. If huge gap between current and potential at 18 to make up loan them out to teams with great facilities and a manager invested in youth!

So I guess you have rather few players in your U23 team then? Only those you can't loan out?

Edited August 5, 2022 by danej

[herne79]

1 hour ago, danej said:

Great input, thanks. I think that implicitly you also say that you keep pretty much anyone aged 15-17, and certainly those aged 15-16 in your U18 squad? If yes, why? Why not move the better ones to the U23 squad if they are at least as good as the better U23 players? I don't doubt that your choice is a sound one, I am just curious. I would guess that it is about overall development. That perhaps your experience is that such players develop at least as well if you just keep them in the U18 squad. But I am surely curious as to what is your rationale behind that choice.

It's mainly from a "realism" perspective.  I used to do a lot of "optimal" player development but honestly I find that quite boring these days.  So now I look at it as I have youth teams therefore I use them as such - under 18s will be in my U18 squad unless there is a real stand out Donnarumma / Mbappe type (which is rare).  It may not be optimal but it still produces results, as in the example above.

By the time they reach 18 I've usually got a good feel for who the brightest prospects are therefore who I can move to the senior squad, U23s, loan out, sell or let contracts lapse.

[danej]

33 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It's mainly from a "realism" perspective.  I used to do a lot of "optimal" player development but honestly I find that quite boring these days.  So now I look at it as I have youth teams therefore I use them as such - under 18s will be in my U18 squad unless there is a real stand out Donnarumma / Mbappe type (which is rare).  It may not be optimal but it still produces results, as in the example above.

By the time they reach 18 I've usually got a good feel for who the brightest prospects are therefore who I can move to the senior squad, U23s, loan out, sell or let contracts lapse.

That makes totally sense. And as you know I have a similar fundamental attitude towards the game.

 

It is an insignificant detail, but so far I personally lean slightly towards moving certain 15-17 y/o players into the U23. If they are good enough. Not because it is optimal, perhaps it isn't. But if it at least isn't significantly suboptimal, then I might do it due to my subjective interpretation of realism (no truth at all, yours and others' interpretation of realism is at least as good as mine). More specifically, my impression is that this often happens IRL. That good U18 players are frequently moved to U23 teams. Simply if they are good enough to play at that level. I would think that this happens more often than not.

 

Not that I really know though. I have barely followed real football for many years. Just picked it up again in recent months, along with FM actually. Nice to no longer have small kids, my twins are now 6 years old. And for the first time in many years I have a vague resemblance of spare time.

 

Anyway, I have followed my favourite IRL team Sunderland extensively throughout recent years. Now, Sunderland has obviously been a total joke of a club, at least untill the current owner took over a couple of years ago. But anyway, at Sunderland they seem to quite often move good U18 players into the U23 team. Based on the rationale, why not, if the player is good enough he will get a better challenge in the U23 team and will thus develop better.

 

I therefore assume that they do this in most other IRL clubs as well. But I don't know, just guessing.

[danej]

54 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It's mainly from a "realism" perspective.  I used to do a lot of "optimal" player development but honestly I find that quite boring these days.  So now I look at it as I have youth teams therefore I use them as such - under 18s will be in my U18 squad unless there is a real stand out Donnarumma / Mbappe type (which is rare).  It may not be optimal but it still produces results, as in the example above.

By the time they reach 18 I've usually got a good feel for who the brightest prospects are therefore who I can move to the senior squad, U23s, loan out, sell or let contracts lapse.

Btw I really appreciate your "realism" comments. I think that at an unconscious level I have been developing my own attitude towards the game in the same direction in recent months. I love to thoroughly learn about the game mechanics. But at the same time I sort of don't care. I hardly ever use that knowledge to optimize my success. Actually I usually do the opposite, play with harsh self imposed restrictions in order to not be too successful. And understanding game mechanics makes it easier for me to pick the restrictions that I subjectively enjoy.

 

In other words, thanks for putting this into words for me, to make me more conscious about this.

 

Btw what I also wanted to say is - I think I also enjoy more and more to play the game from a realism perspective. To not care about what is optimal in game. But just do what I think a club would do IRL.

 

That is also part of why I delegate everything regarding training, scouting and staff recruitment among many other things to the ass man. It is of course incredibly suboptimal. But I like it. And to me it feels more realistic. I don't like being an almighty club dictator who is not only manager but basically the whole staff incorporated in one God-like person with limitless ability and work capacity. I like to let the staff be allowed to do their job. Even if they usually suck, hehe.

Edited August 5, 2022 by danej

[poobington]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

It's mainly from a "realism" perspective.  I used to do a lot of "optimal" player development but honestly I find that quite boring these days.  So now I look at it as I have youth teams therefore I use them as such - under 18s will be in my U18 squad unless there is a real stand out Donnarumma / Mbappe type (which is rare).  It may not be optimal but it still produces results, as in the example above.

By the time they reach 18 I've usually got a good feel for who the brightest prospects are therefore who I can move to the senior squad, U23s, loan out, sell or let contracts lapse.

Unironically, this is the best way. From the ages between 15-18 the primary driver of attribute growth is training. In fact if you move your promising players to the first team and do not play them consistently, then in fact you are depriving on average about 40 training days per season. 

Between the ages of 18-23 - Training plus matches are required to further drive attribute growth, so players who aren't quite breaking through at that age, it is worth sending them out on loan for regular game time.

After the age of 23  - attribute growth is minimal and really you can maintain attributes with training and minimal game time.

Source: How training and match experience affect player growth - Evidence Based Football Manager

Edited August 5, 2022 by poobington

[mt123]

Related to this subject, is there a way to make U18 players unavailable for the U23 squad?

My U23 manager keeps picking U18 players to make up the numbers and it is causing the players to have very low condition. Do I just need to sign more players for the U23s?

[danej]

On 05/08/2022 at 18:26, mt123 said:

Related to this subject, is there a way to make U18 players unavailable for the U23 squad?

My U23 manager keeps picking U18 players to make up the numbers and it is causing the players to have very low condition. Do I just need to sign more players for the U23s?

Good question. I think I would also prefer to stop this if possible. Mostly because I guess that it to a mild degree ruins the training of the U18 players, taking time off training to play U23 matches.

Edited August 8, 2022 by danej