Need a little help putting up my Christmas Tree (A Gerrard Rangers replication)

[HowzatFM]

31 minutes ago, TheGhostofPaulLambert said:

I like this. I'd be tempted to change up one of the AMs to support just for the variety.

 

Also I'm.nt sure on the striker role..I've been using AF myself but it feels too reductive for what Watkins seemed to do last night.

Yeah might be worth a try, just don’t want the striker to be isolated and AMs get on top of the CMs. 
 

Maybe a DLF(A) could be an option? Reflect more on Watkins hold up play 

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

9 minutes ago, benhoward12 said:

Yeah might be worth a try, just don’t want the striker to be isolated and AMs get on top of the CMs. 
 

Maybe a DLF(A) could be an option? Reflect more on Watkins hold up play 

I must admit having tried it with the AMs I do find they get too deep in possession. It clearly makes it better going forwards but the structure doesn't feel quite right but 

[beverage1982]

I've gone back to this because I really like the way it plays. I'm still getting the issue with the striker getting very low ratings every game and I cant work out why.

Any ideas? 

One of the things that seems to happen is the opposition play a high d-line against me and I have no movement in behind or noone laying the ball in behind. I'd assume with an AF I would though.

It's frustrating me because I'm so close to getting this right. I know @Rashidisaid onm his channel he was doing a Villa save soon so maybe he'll have some answers when he starts. 

[HowzatFM]

10 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

I've gone back to this because I really like the way it plays. I'm still getting the issue with the striker getting very low ratings every game and I cant work out why.

Any ideas? 

One of the things that seems to happen is the opposition play a high d-line against me and I have no movement in behind or noone laying the ball in behind. I'd assume with an AF I would though.

It's frustrating me because I'm so close to getting this right. I know @Rashidisaid onm his channel he was doing a Villa save soon so maybe he'll have some answers when he starts. 

It’s a weird one! I had the same issue with the Striker with the F9s but not with the AMs

I think he started the save on his YouTube stream today! Not yet had a chance to watch 

Edited December 15, 2021 by benhoward12

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

On 15/12/2021 at 15:49, benhoward12 said:

It’s a weird one! I had the same issue with the Striker with the F9s but not with the AMs

I think he started the save on his YouTube stream today! Not yet had a chance to watch 

Darjit's is a classic Xmas tree. I still prefer the flat 3 but the low rating for the central striker persists. It must be that they're isolated. Which is weird considering they should have 2 F9s around them 

[beverage1982]

The flat continues to be effective for me,  but I may finally be onto something with my new Xmas tree. Right now I'm second season, snuck past City in the Champions League QF only to draw Bayern. This was the team that won it for me away in the second leg. I'm gutted Mings was injured otherwise it would have been the XI you start the game with  

[HowzatFM]

12 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

The flat continues to be effective for me,  but I may finally be onto something with my new Xmas tree. Right now I'm second season, snuck past City in the Champions League QF only to draw Bayern. This was the team that won it for me away in the second leg. I'm gutted Mings was injured otherwise it would have been the XI you start the game with  

Nice result! How are you set up role wise? 

[enders357]

Hi all, I've just found this thread after looking for any kind of discussion of a Christmas Tree formation and found your posts fascinating. I'm particularly keen to try the variant with the F9s instead of AMs - would you still use your AM type players in those roles, even if they're not supposedly suited?

By wat of a contribution myself; I took over at RB Leipzig in December 2024 on my save. They're stacked with great CMs and AMs and only had poor wingers and one proper striker, so I was keen to work on a Christmas Tree. I fund for a while my wider CMs and AMs were playing on top of each other. I actually tried something different to solve this, by moving the midfield line back in to the DM space, with a DLP flanked by two Registas told to get further forward and stay wider. It's worked pretty well so far in terms of results (although I'd say we're performing no better or worse than expected), and does seem to hold that desired shape. 

I think my TIs are a less focussed on possession than you guys, as RB's board insist on a high-tempo pressing and attacking style.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by enders357

[beverage1982]

Wanted to pick back up this thread ad I'm still desperately struggling with the Christmas tree.

 

I'm finding no matter what I do getting the AMs involved is nigh on impossible.

 

If I put the fullbacks on attack duty it really damages our build up. If I don't we look flat and there's no depth there.

 

I'm just trying to get a set up to make Coutinho and Buendia shine together.

 

Any ideas from the tactical hive mind?

[Tsuru]

42 minutos atrás, beverage1982 disse:

Wanted to pick back up this thread ad I'm still desperately struggling with the Christmas tree.

I'm finding no matter what I do getting the AMs involved is nigh on impossible.

If I put the fullbacks on attack duty it really damages our build up. If I don't we look flat and there's no depth there.

I'm just trying to get a set up to make Coutinho and Buendia shine together.

Any ideas from the tactical hive mind?

I like the Christmas Tree, however playing narrow has becoming more and more difficult in FM as time goes by. It can be done of course but it is not simple.

Maybe you can try different formations, roles and duties to create a Christmas Tree in possession/attack. For example: a 4-3-3 with three central midfielders and two advanced wingers moving inside will look like a Christmas Tree in possession. Or maybe a flat 4-5-1 with the two wide midfielders moving inside. Or even a deep 4-2-3-1, with both DMs moving ahead, the AMC moving back (forming a midfield trio) and the two wingers moving inside to complete the shape. 

Try and see which combinations give you the best results on the field and look like more what you are looking for. 

If you really want to use the original narrow formation maybe you can try different options for the fullbacks, for example one or two Inverted Wingbacks (which will not cut inside as they are the only wide men) or a pair of defensive Wingbacks. Mezzala and/or Carrilero look very important for me on that shape and you will probably need to split the AMs, let´s say one is more a creator and the other one is more a scorer (for example AP/AM and SS), and the striker being something like a DLF-At, PF-At or CF which do a little bit of everything.

The two topics below can also give you some ideas. They are focused on a 442 diamond but the structure itself it not so different.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Tsuru

[Flußkrebs]

30 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I like the Christmas Tree, however playing narrow has becoming more and more difficult in FM as time goes by. It can be done of course but it is not simple.

I personally would disagree with the point that playing narrow is difficult in this year's FM. As far as I can tell, playing narrow is one of the strongest meta-game tactics currently used. Tactics likes the 4312 and 433 narrow are both particularly strong this year (although usually paired with the high pressing style which is typically strong). 

I think that there are good reasons why you need to press high with the narrow tactics- trying to settle back into a settled shape vs say a 4231 will leave you exposed on the flanks. Whilst the wide midfielders in a three man midfield will move wide to press, ultimately your fullbacks trying to contain the opponents wingers (especially if they're inverted) will mean giving so much time and space to the opponent's fullbacks. So immediately counter pressing with your top heavy central presence is usually the best option, rather than trying to settle back.

I've had some good success (overperforming in Eredivisie with Fortuna Sittard from 5th/6th prediction to 1st/2nd level against the big boys like Ajax and Feyenoord) using a set up like below:

           AF-AF

            APs

  CMa-CMd-BBMs

FBs-BPDd-CDd-FBs

 

Having said that, there are a decent amount of tactical tweaks which are needed to get the most out of this system. For starters, one of my AFs has traits like plays with back to goal and plays one twos- AF works well then to produce a hybrid role that will run in behind but also do more of the support striker stuff.

In addition, I have instructions like run wide with the ball and stay wider/tackle harder on my wide midfielders (you could try using Mez/Car instead but I like the balance that the instructions provide). I also tell the CBs to dribble more (plus one has bring ball out of defence) and stay wider, this helps drag around opposition defences and create space/progress the ball. 

The last thing is the full backs- I have tended to use FBs away from home, and at home against the bigger teams, but combined with "run wide with the ball" and "get forward". Provides a good balance to an otherwise aggressive formation. I also will sometimes tell them to sit narrower. Against weak opposition at home I will sometimes switch one or both of them to more aggressive roles like WBs/WBa, and tweak the midfield accordingly. 

In terms of how these principles can be tweaked to make a Christmas Tree set up, I think I'd try the 433 narrow using F9s on the outside and an AF in the middle. Won't be perfect but will almost certainly be effective I think. Using two AMs just doesn't really get the right shape in my view, but if you are to try that, I think I'd combine with high pressing. I know that Gerrard's system tasks the 10s to cover the half spaces to prevent ball progression through the centre, and is more counterattacking, but I don' think is as effective in FM. 

Long winded but just chipping in- additionally I have seen the 4132 to be very popular and effective in the match engine this year. I think the two strikers, runners from deep, and clogging the centre combo is difficult for the AI to deal with. Tall and fast centre halfs will also help as you will be defending a lot of crosses. 

[beverage1982]

17 minutes ago, Flußkrebs said:

I personally would disagree with the point that playing narrow is difficult in this year's FM. As far as I can tell, playing narrow is one of the strongest meta-game tactics currently used. Tactics likes the 4312 and 433 narrow are both particularly strong this year (although usually paired with the high pressing style which is typically strong). 

I think that there are good reasons why you need to press high with the narrow tactics- trying to settle back into a settled shape vs say a 4231 will leave you exposed on the flanks. Whilst the wide midfielders in a three man midfield will move wide to press, ultimately your fullbacks trying to contain the opponents wingers (especially if they're inverted) will mean giving so much time and space to the opponent's fullbacks. So immediately counter pressing with your top heavy central presence is usually the best option, rather than trying to settle back.

I've had some good success (overperforming in Eredivisie with Fortuna Sittard from 5th/6th prediction to 1st/2nd level against the big boys like Ajax and Feyenoord) using a set up like below:

           AF-AF

            APs

  CMa-CMd-BBMs

FBs-BPDd-CDd-FBs

 

Having said that, there are a decent amount of tactical tweaks which are needed to get the most out of this system. For starters, one of my AFs has traits like plays with back to goal and plays one twos- AF works well then to produce a hybrid role that will run in behind but also do more of the support striker stuff.

In addition, I have instructions like run wide with the ball and stay wider/tackle harder on my wide midfielders (you could try using Mez/Car instead but I like the balance that the instructions provide). I also tell the CBs to dribble more (plus one has bring ball out of defence) and stay wider, this helps drag around opposition defences and create space/progress the ball. 

The last thing is the full backs- I have tended to use FBs away from home, and at home against the bigger teams, but combined with "run wide with the ball" and "get forward". Provides a good balance to an otherwise aggressive formation. I also will sometimes tell them to sit narrower. Against weak opposition at home I will sometimes switch one or both of them to more aggressive roles like WBs/WBa, and tweak the midfield accordingly. 

In terms of how these principles can be tweaked to make a Christmas Tree set up, I think I'd try the 433 narrow using F9s on the outside and an AF in the middle. Won't be perfect but will almost certainly be effective I think. Using two AMs just doesn't really get the right shape in my view, but if you are to try that, I think I'd combine with high pressing. I know that Gerrard's system tasks the 10s to cover the half spaces to prevent ball progression through the centre, and is more counterattacking, but I don' think is as effective in FM. 

Long winded but just chipping in- additionally I have seen the 4132 to be very popular and effective in the match engine this year. I think the two strikers, runners from deep, and clogging the centre combo is difficult for the AI to deal with. Tall and fast centre halfs will also help as you will be defending a lot of crosses. 

Thanks. I really do agree with the 433 flat with two f9s. Its the closest I've come. The issue is the central striker gets unbelievably bad ratings when playing that way and I can never work out how to solve it. 

[Flußkrebs]

5 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Thanks. I really do agree with the 433 flat with two f9s. Its the closest I've come. The issue is the central striker gets unbelievably bad ratings when playing that way and I can never work out how to solve it. 

It's a little verboten on this section of the site but I've seen popular tactics that have set up like: 

 

          F9-AF-F9

        CMa-MEZa

              DMs

CWBa-BPD-BPD-CWBa

 

Attacking mentality of course, shorter passing, highest tempo, WBIB Counter/Counter press, ultra pressing etc.

Not to say copy that! But it works... 

A more sensible version/closer to playing as a Xmas tree might see you switch the midfield to something closer to mine in the 4312, use a CAR on one side with an attacking full back, use a MEZ or CMa on the side with a supporting FB, and tone down some of the extremities, and give some PIs to the F9. I know for a fact that an AF in this kind of attacking system WILL score goals if they have pace and acceleration. 

Something like

         F9-AF-F9 

   CMa-CMd-CAR

WBs-BPD-CD-CWBa

With positive/attacking mentality, one notch higher engagement/pressing/tempo, POD, WBIB, low crosses. Leave passing on standard for now and give that a go. You'll probably need to give the F9s some PIs and tweak with the width of the formation as well. 

[Tsuru]

Em 12/05/2022 em 13:28, Flußkrebs disse:

I personally would disagree with the point that playing narrow is difficult in this year's FM. As far as I can tell, playing narrow is one of the strongest meta-game tactics currently used. Tactics likes the 4312 and 433 narrow are both particularly strong this year (although usually paired with the high pressing style which is typically strong). 

I am still on FM 21 (and will probably continue for more one or two years) so I don´t know if this changed on 22, but I experience the same problems from friends of mine: on a narrow formation the team controls possession, occupies the middle of the field, but has an incredible hard time scoring. It is very easy to nullify our attacks and opponents always do a good job closing spaces when we don´t use wingers/wide midfielders, besides the fullbacks are always isolated and we suffer with the 2x1 on the flanks. And also I experienced this problem on 3 at the back formations. So for personal experience I tend to avoid narrow formations.

Interesting to see that someone has a different and good experience with them.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Tsuru said:

Interesting to see that someone has a different and good experience with them.

The 4-4-2 Diamond is pretty lethal in FM22, sure it was in FM21 too 

I'm not sure on the Christmas Tree, I've never used it and I'd certainly never try and replicate Villa 

Every formation in football has it's strong and weak points, it's all about maximising it's strengths and minimising it's weaknesses 

[Tsuru]

Em 13/05/2022 em 17:52, Johnny Ace disse:

The 4-4-2 Diamond is pretty lethal in FM22, sure it was in FM21 too 

I'm not sure on the Christmas Tree, I've never used it and I'd certainly never try and replicate Villa 

Every formation in football has it's strong and weak points, it's all about maximising it's strengths and minimising it's weaknesses 

I did try in FM 21 but I faced the same problems from all narrow formations: other teams sat too deep, closed the middle of the field and we had lots of difficulty on scoring. I know that this can be solved with a lot of experiences and trial and error but it always seemed to me that other formations´ weaknesses were easier to solve. Besides that, finding good fullbacks can be very hard on lower leagues, while finding average fullbacks/wingers is easier and they compliment each other. So I turned over to more "easier" formations to manage.

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Besides that, finding good fullbacks can be very hard on lower leagues

Yep, that's the thing, the weakness is on the flanks, the fullbacks have a lot of ground to cover and a lot of work to do so these players need to be top class. So if your fullbacks are run of the mill guys, you're better off using a formation with AML/R's

Carilleros where also put in the game to help with 3 man midfield's, they just stay that little bit wider and support the fullback so even if you're not using that role, it's worth asking the outer CMs to stay wider to help them out   

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Yep, that's the thing, the weakness is on the flanks, the fullbacks have a lot of ground to cover and a lot of work to do so these players need to be top class. So if your fullbacks are run of the mill guys, you're better off using a formation with AML/R's

Carilleros where also put in the game to help with 3 man midfield's, they just stay that little bit wider and support the fullback so even if you're not using that role, it's worth asking the outer CMs to stay wider to help them out   

I did try a pair of Carrileros but on a 4-4-2 diamond we lacked creativity and the burden for the AMC was too high. As you said we need really good fullbacks which are very hard to find on smaller teams, so playing with wingers is easier in our situation. 

[Flußkrebs]

On 16/05/2022 at 12:03, Tsuru said:

I did try a pair of Carrileros but on a 4-4-2 diamond we lacked creativity and the burden for the AMC was too high. As you said we need really good fullbacks which are very hard to find on smaller teams, so playing with wingers is easier in our situation. 

For what it's worth I've always had better success with a 4312 or 4132 formation (former resembles IRL diamonds better in my view). The 442 DM Diamond usually means that the CMs aren't really positioned the way they ought to be. It plays better as a vertical tiki-taka through the lines type formation, whereas the former two are better on the counter (in my experience at least). Also less reliance on the fullbacks (or they can afford to be slightly more conservative) when you have a 3 man midfield- the wider CMs start wider already so better fill the flanks. 

[Tsuru]

37 minutos atrás, Flußkrebs disse:

For what it's worth I've always had better success with a 4312 or 4132 formation (former resembles IRL diamonds better in my view). The 442 DM Diamond usually means that the CMs aren't really positioned the way they ought to be. It plays better as a vertical tiki-taka through the lines type formation, whereas the former two are better on the counter (in my experience at least). Also less reliance on the fullbacks (or they can afford to be slightly more conservative) when you have a 3 man midfield- the wider CMs start wider already so better fill the flanks. 

Yes, I have that same feeling. Also you can create diamonds using roles and duties on a 4312 or 4132 in a much more flexible way than on a diamond 442.

[beverage1982]

On 12/05/2022 at 13:59, Flußkrebs said:

It's a little verboten on this section of the site but I've seen popular tactics that have set up like: 

 

          F9-AF-F9

        CMa-MEZa

              DMs

CWBa-BPD-BPD-CWBa

 

Attacking mentality of course, shorter passing, highest tempo, WBIB Counter/Counter press, ultra pressing etc.

Not to say copy that! But it works... 

A more sensible version/closer to playing as a Xmas tree might see you switch the midfield to something closer to mine in the 4312, use a CAR on one side with an attacking full back, use a MEZ or CMa on the side with a supporting FB, and tone down some of the extremities, and give some PIs to the F9. I know for a fact that an AF in this kind of attacking system WILL score goals if they have pace and acceleration. 

Something like

         F9-AF-F9 

   CMa-CMd-CAR

WBs-BPD-CD-CWBa

With positive/attacking mentality, one notch higher engagement/pressing/tempo, POD, WBIB, low crosses. Leave passing on standard for now and give that a go. You'll probably need to give the F9s some PIs and tweak with the width of the formation as well. 

Belatedly getting back to this. I do think this is the best way to set it up and I have had some success with it. However, the central striker consistently gets terrible ratings no matter the role. I think it must be something to do with the behaviour of the 3 in a line that means he doesn;t make the usual kind of runs. 

Either way I'm finding the Christmas tree infuriatingly difficult to produce this year. 

[beverage1982]

On 13/05/2022 at 17:52, Johnny Ace said:

The 4-4-2 Diamond is pretty lethal in FM22, sure it was in FM21 too 

I'm not sure on the Christmas Tree, I've never used it and I'd certainly never try and replicate Villa 

Every formation in football has it's strong and weak points, it's all about maximising it's strengths and minimising it's weaknesses 

Forgot you were a city fan  

It's not even about creating an effective Christmas Tree for me now, it's just about creating a functional one. The biggest issue is getting the AMs to perform and the build up to be fluid enough. It's all very rigid and mechanical with little space.

I think my best bet is going traditional 433 and doing everything I can to get the AML/R narrow.