Need help with my out of possession setup

[ThomasHK1979]

Hi guys i need help with my ´out of possession setup´. My ´In possession´ and ´In transition´ setup works very well. I create a lot of chances and score goals. 
But I concede to many chances and too many goals.

[Zemahh]

Some quick thoughts:

• No holding midfielder (all three central midfield Roles roaming/can be caught high up the pitch)
• No cover for offensive-minded WB-At
• Aggressive manner of defending (relatively high block combined with Counter-Press and More Urgent pressing)

Possible solutions:

• BBM -> CM/BWM-De (with REG given the freedom to roam and WB-At on his side bombing forward early, I'd deploy a proper destroyer)
• Replace Counter-Press and More Urgent pressing with a split-press (only instruct the front three to Close Down More via Player Instructions)

4-1-2-3 is generally not very comfortable pressing high up the pitch, due to the lack of bodies forward (especially against bottom-heavy formations, which Milan should face plenty of).

Here's an example of a 4-1-2-3 w/ split-press (front three force a long clearance which bodies behind can deal with comfortably and generate a quick counter):

Hope that gives you some ideas.

[Experienced Defender]

- no holding midfield role (to the contrary, all 3 are roaming roles)

- no cover for the attacking WB on the left

- more aggressive out-of-possession TIs than necessary

[ThomasHK1979]

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

Some quick thoughts:

• No holding midfielder (all three central midfield Roles roaming/can be caught high up the pitch)
• No cover for offensive-minded WB-At
• Aggressive manner of defending (relatively high block combined with Counter-Press and More Urgent pressing)

Possible solutions:

• BBM -> CM/BWM-De (with REG given the freedom to roam and WB-At on his side bombing forward early, I'd deploy a proper destroyer)
• Replace Counter-Press and More Urgent pressing with a split-press (only instruct the front three to Close Down More via Player Instructions)

4-1-2-3 is generally not very comfortable pressing high up the pitch, due to the lack of bodies forward (especially against bottom-heavy formations, which Milan should face plenty of).

Here's an example of a 4-1-2-3 w/ split-press (front three force a long clearance which bodies behind can deal with comfortably and generate a quick counter):

Hope that gives you some ideas.

So if i put my front three on more urgent pressing, how should my ´Out of possesion´ TI be set? Like this below ?

[ThomasHK1979]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

- no holding midfield role (to the contrary, all 3 are roaming roles)

- no cover for the attacking WB on the left

- more aggressive out-of-possession TIs than necessary

I hear what you say, but look at this image below. This is the pre-set vertical tiki-taka tactic made by SI. Roles and TI is pretty similar to my tactic.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I hear what you say, but look at this image below. This is the pre-set vertical tiki-taka tactic made by SI. Roles and TI is pretty similar to my tactic

Well, that's why I don't like presets and never use them. If I were in charge of creating those preset tactics, they would look completely different. 

[ThomasHK1979]

5 minutes ago, B3nnet7 said:

Hi sorry to drop in on this post but just wondering, @Zemahh @Experienced Defender is it important to have your BPD on the same side as your midfielder on defend? For example, my best CD is left footed, my best BPD is right footed, but my best CMd is on the left and I play a BBMs is on the right. Would this be fine? Or does it make more sense to line up the BPD and the CMd or DLPd on the same side? Thank you 

Not to be rude here, but how about starting your own thread about the subject as I actually started this thread to get help with my OOP setup. 

[Zemahh]

3 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

So if i put my front three on more urgent pressing, how should my ´Out of possesion´ TI be set?

Split press = Default team pressing intensity (yours is currently More Urgent) + Close Down More on the front 3/4 players

If you're using increased pressing intensity for the whole team, you may not be able to instruct certain players to Close Down More, because the intensity may already be maxed out.

2 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

This is the pre-set vertical tiki-taka tactic made by SI.

Don't think that default presets are in any shape or form optimal. In my opinion, they shouldn't be looked at as universal tactics, more as rough guidelines for what kind of Roles/Instructions could be useful for certain tactical styles. At least I hope they were meant in that way, because some of them include all sorts of tactical overkills that will get you nowhere in the game.

35 minutes ago, B3nnet7 said:

Hi sorry to drop in on this post but just wondering, @Zemahh @Experienced Defender is it important to have your BPD on the same side as your midfielder on defend?

Personally, I like to have my BPD behind a midfielder on Support/Attack Duty. The idea is for him to have enough space ahead of him, so he can actually step up and bring balls out of defence, as well as have enough targets for his risky passes.

I also don't like placing a BPD behind a Playmaker; Playmaker might drop deep to collect the ball, but get bypassed by a risky pass BPDs are instructed to play.

Example:

DLP-De BBM-Su

CD-De BPD-De

Anyway, at least that's my personal approach, others may have different preferences.

[Experienced Defender]

@B3nnet7 Mate, the OP is right. You should start your own thread, because people generally don't like hijacking their threads, even if you had no bad intention. 

So please do so and you'll get all the help you need 

[B3nnet7]

19 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@B3nnet7 Mate, the OP is right. You should start your own thread, because people generally don't like hijacking their threads, even if you had no bad intention. 

Okay no worries, I'm sorry I genuinely didn't realise. In my head it was related to the topic that's all but I get how It came across. I'm new to the forum and still learning. Thanks for letting me know. 

@ThomasHK1979 sorry for the intrusion, I have now hidden my messages. 

 

@Zemahh thank you for your reply 

[CARRERA]

15 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Hi guys i need help with my ´out of possession setup´. My ´In possession´ and ´In transition´ setup works very well. I create a lot of chances and score goals. 
But I concede to many chances and too many goals.

 

make B2B a CM(d) if you wanna keep your regista or keep the B2B and make your DM DLP(d) - I would keep the regista tho as you are playing for shorter passes and in more advanced areas

regarding your TI‘s i would remove „prevent short GK distribution“ and remove counterpress instruction from in transition especially if you decide keeping the regista since both your wingback and regista will move forward and will struggle already getting back into position for defense without counterpress activate. 
 

if you still concede too much go for regroup

[ThomasHK1979]

4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

make B2B a CM(d) if you wanna keep your regista or keep the B2B and make your DM DLP(d) - I would keep the regista tho as you are playing for shorter passes and in more advanced areas

regarding your TI‘s i would remove „prevent short GK distribution“ and remove counterpress instruction from in transition especially if you decide keeping the regista since both your wingback and regista will move forward and will struggle already getting back into position for defense without counterpress activate. 
 

if you still concede too much go for regroup

Thanks. Would you apply any PI for the CMd? 
What about tighter marking and offside trap. Would you apply that?

[CARRERA]

15 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Thanks. Would you apply any PI for the CMd? 
What about tighter marking and offside trap. Would you apply that?

No PI‘s for the CMd.

wouldnt add offside trap or Tighter marking now as you already play with increased risk when out of possession. If your opponent basicly isnt creating many chances against you, you may think about adding further risk like offside trap or tight marking to even further increase your time in possession. 

[ThomasHK1979]

I wonder if I should change my CF to PF in this system instead?

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Turning a 38/39 year old striker into a lone pressing forward seems like a terrible idea.

[ThomasHK1979]

On 10/01/2021 at 16:58, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's why I don't like presets and never use them. If I were in charge of creating those preset tactics, they would look completely different. 

So which role would you suggest to my LCM position when I want my Regista and Mezzala.?

[CARRERA]

@ThomasHK1979 didn’t the CMd work Out? If not what happened?

[ThomasHK1979]

4 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

@ThomasHK1979 didn’t the CMd work Out? If not what happened?

He got worse ratings than B2B

[CARRERA]

5 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

He got worse ratings than B2B

Well it’s not about ratings, Right? What’s your tactic looking right now. 

[ThomasHK1979]

32 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Well it’s not about ratings, Right? What’s your tactic looking right now. 

Yep. For me it’s the number one priority. That’s what gives me joy playing this game. 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

The fact of the matter is your defensive issues run far, far deeper than your choice of team instructions, as people have pointed out.

You can adopt the tactical considerations here and concede less but get worse ratings on one or two positions, or you can continue leaking goals but get higher ratings in those positions. Can't have your cake and eat it too. A CM(De) will perform "worse" than a B2B because the ratings system does not value the things a CM(De) is doing as highly/at all.  

 

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

So which role would you suggest to my LCM position when I want my Regista and Mezzala.?

But you already have a mezzala in LCM position. I personally would change the mezzala's duty into attack, for better interplay between him and IF on support in AML.

What I would change is actually the RCM role - BBM into a carrilero or BWM on support.

[ThomasHK1979]

16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

But you already have a mezzala in LCM position. I personally would change the mezzala's duty into attack, for better interplay between him and IF on support in AML.

What I would change is actually the RCM role - BBM into a carrilero or BWM on support.

To something like this ?

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

To something like this ?

Definitely no. Extremely risky (defensively unstable) for my liking. But you can test the tactic and see - maybe it will work for your team.

[ThomasHK1979]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Definitely no. Extremely risky (defensively unstable) for my liking. But you can test the tactic and see - maybe it will work for your team.

Okay I tested and conceded  too many goals 😀. BUT the Carrilero role for Kessie or Bennacer worked very well. 
So knowing my “in possession” and “out of possession” style, which roles do you recommend? The only role I like to keep is the Carillero. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

BUT the Carrilero role for Kessie or Bennacer worked very well

The carrilero is okay. The partnership of the mezzala and attacking wing-back on the opposite side is a major problem. Absolutely no protection on that flank. 

 

1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

So knowing my “in possession” and “out of possession” style, which roles do you recommend? The only role I like to keep is the Carillero

CFat

IFsu                                  IWsu

CAR    MEZat

DLPde

WBat   CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu/de

[ThomasHK1979]

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The carrilero is okay. The partnership of the mezzala and attacking wing-back on the opposite side is a major problem. Absolutely no protection on that flank. 

 

CFat

IFsu                                  IWsu

CAR    MEZat

DLPde

WBat   CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu/de

My problem with the DLPde is that it contradicts with Tonalis traits as you can see in the screenshot.
And how about dropping the mezzala and use APatt or CMatt instead. I like to have AMR to score a lot of goals (im planning to buy Yusif Demir :-) )

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

My problem with the DLPde is that it contradicts with Tonalis traits as you can see in the screenshot

That's not a problem as long as he has the right set of attributes to execute these traits. And btw, brings ball out of defense is actually a welcome trait for a DLP. 

 

9 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

And how about dropping the mezzala and use APatt or CMatt instead

In terms of balance, that's okay. However, the introduction of the AP with attack duty can alter your tactical style. 

But what's the exact reason you want to drop the mezzala? 

11 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I like to have AMR to score a lot of goals

I am not the right person to give you proper advice on that, because I never care who will score goals for me as long as we play well and have good results as a team.