Player development makes no sense

[Maldini's Heir]

I probably am paying closer attention to players' development than most people because I'm using Football Manager to simulate the attributes for my PES game.

So I have to physically update the PES stats with the FM stats. I only do this one a season in August (which is probably a bad time because the players are only coming out of pre-season). Anyway, there should be at least logic to it....

I have taken over individual training so I can get my players to focus on specific attribute training. I also make sure that the starting line ups are the same throughout the season so the players should be getting the same game time. I also keep a really tight youth team and have targeted loans to help develop my players. And it's all pointless because there's no correlation the attributes that I set individual training to and the changes....

For example, Romagnoli was told to focus on his First Touch so his Jumping Reach improved...

Calabria was told to work on his Crossing so became Stronger....

Gabbia was told to work on his Positioning so increased his Flair....

You get the idea.

Now I'm sure someone will say: "It's more complicated than that." 

But really, it shouldn't be.

If I tell Romagnoli to focus on his First Touch, and every single day he comes to training he focuses on his First Touch, his First Touch should improve. He shouldn't learn to jump higher.....

In fact if I caught him jumping instead of practising his First Touch I'd say: "Hey Alessio, why are you jumping when you should be practising your First Touch"? and he responded by saying "Sorry, Maldini's Heir, I'm actually training for the high jump in the Olympics....."....I'd be disappointed.

So I'm quite disappointed with this. It makes it feel pointless. 

 

 

[santy001]

When you give players an additional focus it's not replacing everything else.

They still do all other parts of their training, so they'll be jumping in training sessions. They'll be lifting weights, performing sprints. Player improvement happens in different areas. It's not going to be as focused you're suggesting you'd like. The only counter to your argument saying it shouldn't be more complicated is well... it just should. You can disagree with it from a game perspective on one hand, but, its trying to emulate actual ways in which players improve.

[Maldini's Heir]

I was being flippant.....but seriously if I tell a player to focus on one thing and everything else improves except that one thing, it does feel a little disjointed.

Possibly the thing I'm missing is I'm asking a player to do the impossible. Romagnoli's touch will never be better than a 12!

[DaveMac]

I think your last part might be true. Every player will have a ceiling to a certain ability. No matter how good your coaches and how hard they work certain players will only reach a certain point in how good they are. 

You’ve got to live with the fact that his first touch is terrible!

[zyfon5]

May 

4 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I probably am paying closer attention to players' development than most people because I'm using Football Manager to simulate the attributes for my PES game.

So I have to physically update the PES stats with the FM stats. I only do this one a season in August (which is probably a bad time because the players are only coming out of pre-season). Anyway, there should be at least logic to it....

I have taken over individual training so I can get my players to focus on specific attribute training. I also make sure that the starting line ups are the same throughout the season so the players should be getting the same game time. I also keep a really tight youth team and have targeted loans to help develop my players. And it's all pointless because there's no correlation the attributes that I set individual training to and the changes....

For example, Romagnoli was told to focus on his First Touch so his Jumping Reach improved...

Calabria was told to work on his Crossing so became Stronger....

Gabbia was told to work on his Positioning so increased his Flair....

You get the idea.

Now I'm sure someone will say: "It's more complicated than that." 

But really, it shouldn't be.

If I tell Romagnoli to focus on his First Touch, and every single day he comes to training he focuses on his First Touch, his First Touch should improve. He shouldn't learn to jump higher.....

In fact if I caught him jumping instead of practising his First Touch I'd say: "Hey Alessio, why are you jumping when you should be practising your First Touch"? and he responded by saying "Sorry, Maldini's Heir, I'm actually training for the high jump in the Olympics....."....I'd be disappointed.

So I'm quite disappointed with this. It makes it feel pointless. 

 

 

May I know which version of fm u are playing?

[Marko1989]

Player development makes no sense to me in FM in general. 

At least in 2019, in FM 20 I could not complete one the whole season. So, there was some "attributes redistribution"

If player has reached his maximum, some of his attributes will get lower so other can get higher. So because of that my best winger got better at marking, but slower, and worse at dribling at age of 23. I don't know what sane person would came up with that idea "if he wants to be better are something, he must get worse at something else". Like they were all drunk when somebody proposed that so they accepted. So I was seeing wonderkids after great season becoming worse at key areas. Players should not reach their peak too early, some players get better even at 30+ of age in reality. 

Again, that was the case in Fm19 I don't know for fm 20

Edited April 28, 2020 by Marko1989

[XaW]

11 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

Player development makes no sense to me in FM in general. 

At least in 2019, in FM 20 I could not complete one the whole season. So, there was some "attributes redistribution"

If player has reached his maximum, some of his attributes will get lower so other can get higher. So because of that my best winger got better at marking, but slower, and worse at dribling at age of 23. I don't know what sane person would came up with that idea "if he wants to be better are something, he must get worse at something else". Like they were all drunk when somebody proposed that so they accepted. So I was seeing wonderkids after great season becoming worse at key areas. Players should not reach their peak too early, some players get better even at 30+ of age in reality. 

Again, that was the case in Fm19 I don't know for fm 20

Attribute redistribution is a thing, and it happens in real life as well! I know, blows the mind away, whooosh! But as it turns out, if you add on a lot of muscles and become a long stronger, you also gain weight, and that leads to less stamina or pace. Mind boggling, I know.

In all seriousness, though, it's real, and if you experience that your winger are getting poorer as wingers, then you are doing something wrong in regards to their training.

For this guy, I've trained him as a Winger on Attack since forever, and he has almost ONLY had positive numbers.

The only ones going down are tackling and jumping reach. And I really don't mind that on an attacking winger.

This kid, Ball Playing Defender - Defend:

A lot of improvements, only a bit down in determination and thats because it was VERY high, and 15 is still good, but getting dragged down by my team leaders. Note that his vision went up a lot, and that's because it's a focus for him.

This kid, a central midfielder in various roles, so I've had him on box-to-box, for the overall best improvements.

Not a single attribute down.

So my main complaint for player development in FM is that it's too easy to have players reach their potential. I'd like to see more failed talents, more players with VERY high potential, but a lot harder to reach it. Granted, seeing as some of your obviously struggle with the current game, I doubt it will be like this, but that is one of my most wanted wished for future versions.

[dolph11]

6 minutes ago, XaW said:

Attribute redistribution is a thing, and it happens in real life as well! I know, blows the mind away, whooosh! But as it turns out, if you add on a lot of muscles and become a long stronger, you also gain weight, and that leads to less stamina or pace. Mind boggling, I know.

In all seriousness, though, it's real, and if you experience that your winger are getting poorer as wingers, then you are doing something wrong in regards to their training.

For this guy, I've trained him as a Winger on Attack since forever, and he has almost ONLY had positive numbers.

The only ones going down are tackling and jumping reach. And I really don't mind that on an attacking winger.

This kid, Ball Playing Defender - Defend:

A lot of improvements, only a bit down in determination and thats because it was VERY high, and 15 is still good, but getting dragged down by my team leaders. Note that his vision went up a lot, and that's because it's a focus for him.

This kid, a central midfielder in various roles, so I've had him on box-to-box, for the overall best improvements.

Not a single attribute down.

So my main complaint for player development in FM is that it's too easy to have players reach their potential. I'd like to see more failed talents, more players with VERY high potential, but a lot harder to reach it. Granted, seeing as some of your obviously struggle with the current game, I doubt it will be like this, but that is one of my most wanted wished for future versions.

That's pretty impressive! Do you do your own General Training schedules or leave it to your Assistant? I always take charge of Individual Training and I do get some positive results but yours their are fantastic,

Edited April 28, 2020 by dolph11

[XaW]

Just now, dolph11 said:

That's pretty impressive! Do you do your own General Training schedules or leave it to your Assistant? I always take charge of Individual Training and I do get some positive results but yours their are fantastic,

Yeah, AM does general, but I manage individual. Mostly I keep it in the role they play and use focus for single attributes, but I sometimes switch roles if I want a player to have a slightly different focus. I set a reminder to myself every 3-4 months to review it, so I can see who is not doing well enough. Sometimes it's the player himself who are not applying enough effort, and then I often get rid, but for the most part I have a chat with them and they have a boost.

I very rarely have to have chats with them now, but I do whenever they are under 6.5/7 in training rating and tell them to straighten out. I'm in the summer holiday now, so everyone is blank, but most hover about 8 with some regularly getting 10s.

[Maldini's Heir]

20 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

May I know which version of fm u are playing?

FM20 with the latest update....I think...

[Maldini's Heir]

18 hours ago, XaW said:

Yeah, AM does general, but I manage individual. Mostly I keep it in the role they play and use focus for single attributes, but I sometimes switch roles if I want a player to have a slightly different focus. I set a reminder to myself every 3-4 months to review it, so I can see who is not doing well enough. Sometimes it's the player himself who are not applying enough effort, and then I often get rid, but for the most part I have a chat with them and they have a boost.

I very rarely have to have chats with them now, but I do whenever they are under 6.5/7 in training rating and tell them to straighten out. I'm in the summer holiday now, so everyone is blank, but most hover about 8 with some regularly getting 10s.

Impressive indeed.

I do the same as you with mixed results...

The reason I think I find it so noticeable is because I'm actually physically updating the attributes in PES to meet with the improvements in FM. I have put together a stat converter which is totally made up but basically takes the physical attributes and multiples them by 5 to find the range and then use the related mental attribute divided by 5 to get a number in that range.

So Finishing 15 in FM translates as 75-80 in PES and then if a player has 10 Composure in FM they'll end up with a 77 in PES.

In order to do the stat conversion I enter the stats into an Excel spreadsheet so I get a real sense of what has changed. I only do this once a year. And it's frustrating to see the one attribute I've told the player to focus on for the previous 12 months not change.

[Maldini's Heir]

19 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Player development makes no sense to me in FM in general. 

At least in 2019, in FM 20 I could not complete one the whole season. So, there was some "attributes redistribution"

If player has reached his maximum, some of his attributes will get lower so other can get higher. So because of that my best winger got better at marking, but slower, and worse at dribling at age of 23. I don't know what sane person would came up with that idea "if he wants to be better are something, he must get worse at something else". Like they were all drunk when somebody proposed that so they accepted. So I was seeing wonderkids after great season becoming worse at key areas. Players should not reach their peak too early, some players get better even at 30+ of age in reality. 

Again, that was the case in Fm19 I don't know for fm 20

They've overthought it.

It's a problem we see a lot and FM is particularly bad for it. The more complicated you make something the more likely you end up with anomalies.

It really shouldn't be too complicated to tell a player to work on one thing and that one thing improves. The challenge is to pick that one thing and sacrifice improving other things. That's as far as it needs to go.

[zyfon5]

Not all attributes are allocated equally in FM. It is much harder to get a CB to increase one point in first touch than let's say a CM. Putting them on individual focus only increase the probability of increase in that set of attributes. But if the possibility is very low at start, there is nothing u can do about it. This soft cap is in place to prevent someone training a CB to have 18 passing and 18 vision for example which is unrealistic.

Especially for players that are very close to their max potential like romagnoli it is very difficult for them to improve something they are naturally not good at. U will have better chance of trying this on a 18 year old newgen for example.

Edited April 29, 2020 by zyfon5

[zyfon5]

If u want ur player to grow a set of unconventional attribute, there used to be a method in previous fm where u can train a player in a role that he is not playing hence changing the default position and the soft cap on all attributes is hence calculated differently. Not sure if it still works though.

[Maldini's Heir]

45 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Not all attributes are allocated equally in FM. It is much harder to get a CB to increase one point in first touch than let's say a CM. Putting them on individual focus only increase the probability of increase in that set of attributes. But if the possibility is very low at start, there is nothing u can do about it. This soft cap is in place to prevent someone training a CB to have 18 passing and 18 vision for example which is unrealistic.

Especially for players that are very close to their max potential like romagnoli it is very difficult for them to improve something they are naturally not good at. U will have better chance of trying this on a 18 year old newgen for example.

This is true but a 12 First Touch is not great particularly for a Ball Playing Defender. It translates to 60-65 in PES which is also not great.

[zyfon5]

35 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

This is true but a 12 First Touch is not great particularly for a Ball Playing Defender. It translates to 60-65 in PES which is also not great.

If u want good ball playing defender, start to look for newgens that are natural deep lying playmakers they share a lot of similar important attributes. Once u train their defensive skills up, they are much better than real ball playing defender players.