Defensive Teams

[Ciderarmy]

Morning all I'm just after some help on how to break teams down and it's leaving me tearing my hair out.

Im one of the stronger teams in my league and I noticed going into my second season a lot of teams are now just sitting back with ten men playing very defensive football just looking not to lose.

Formations I seem to be facing are 5-4-1 or with 2dm in front of a back 4 and no matter what I try I can't find a way through 

I did come across a article about breaking teams down in fm but it makes no sense so over to you guys if you can help me crack this puzzle I would be very happy 

[CARRERA]

You need to more penetration via runs and passes and take more risks in general.

So without seeing anything about your tactic, try to get more passing directness at least in the final third and look for fast attacking transitions (counter). 

[SpartanUTD]

I have similar problem. I can't play passive football against a team who park the bus, just to save myself from counter-attacks.

The problem is that I might create 10-15 chances without scoring and they might have 2 shots, 2 on goal and win 2-0!

Especially this season for me has been a disaster.

[Ciderarmy]

I know the feeling, teams are literally parking the bus then after 82 minutes they go attacking and score after there only shot

just played a game the opponents never got into our half all game meanwhile we have had 20 shots 12 on target and one goal literally with 6 minutes to go they go attacking and scored with there only shot!!!!

[FMunderachiever]

id say you can do a few things

1) if youre a good footballing side, try and draw them out by dropping the intensity of the pressing from the front and the line of engagement, giving them more time to come forward and then try and nick the ball off them and play in the space they have vacated themselves with direct, incisive passing. needs players who can execute these killer passes though and find space in small areas.

2) You could get yourself a massive "plan B" striker, and pump it in the box to him, in the hope his size and power will disrupt the opposition and he will win headers on goal and knock downs to team mates. Using a relentless, fast tempo and early balls into the box should mean that the opposition will struggle to clear the ball, and you can keep constant pressure on them until they break

3) you could focus on getting some really solid set piece routines to trouble the opposition from good deliveries into the box, another weapon you have.

4) Maybe try less of a top heavy formation and more support duties in your tactic, so players can get on the ball and unlock the door more. if the space is in front of their defence, maybe use creativity and well time runs from deep coupled with a forward who comes deep to receive the ball to create space

[SpartanUTD]

5 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

id say you can do a few things

1) if you're a good footballing side, try and draw them out by dropping the intensity of the pressing from the front and the line of engagement, giving them more time to come forward and then try and nick the ball off them and play in the space they have vacated themselves with direct, incisive passing. needs players who can execute these killer passes though and find space in small areas.

2) You could get yourself a massive "plan B" striker, and pump it in the box to him, in the hope his size and power will disrupt the opposition and he will win headers on goal and knock downs to team mates. Using a relentless, fast tempo and early balls into the box should mean that the opposition will struggle to clear the ball, and you can keep constant pressure on them until they break

 

1. I liked the idea of holding the ball and passing it outside their defense, trying to find holes to the wingers and striker, but it rarely works, as the weaker opponents don't do anything else but defending, so they are always standing in front of the penalty area and the stronger opponents who will play defensively, are to solid to break.

2. I have 3 strikers, each one with different characteristics, one all round CF, one Poacher and a Russian giant (2..01m tall), who despite his efforts when he is on, he is always finding himself with 2 CBs and 2 MCs stack on him.

Points 3 and 4 might be good and I will try them too.

[Experienced Defender]

We don't even know what is your formation, let alone the tactic (mentality, roles, duties, TIs and PIs), so it's hard to give you any meaningful advice. More general advice could be to try to overload the opposition box with as many players as possible, so that they cannot handle them all at the same time. That can be very risky of course, but if they play so defensively that they aren't even try to counter-attack, the risk can pay off. Now, the question is what would be the best way to create this kind of overload, which definitely depends on what type of players you have and which formation you use.

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks for the reply

This is my tactic and it worked really well in my first season losing the title to Celtic on goal difference.

Fast forward to this season and as ive said im finding teams are just camping and im finding it really difficult to break teams down.

Last season I drew 6 games all season and at the moment ive drawn 6 after 18 games played.

I have tried all sorts of different combinations but with no success and was just looking for some advice.

 

[Ciderarmy]

[Ciderarmy]

[Ciderarmy]

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

if your team is really "one of the strongest in the league" (as you said in the opening post), then this tactic is too conservative and makes it easy for defensive sides to defend against you. 

Have you tried to play on a higher mentality, to begin with? Positive, for example?

Also, if you use a BPD - and I don't know if your CB is suitable for the role - you should not put him on the same side as the playmaker. 

[Ciderarmy]

Hi no I usually start on balance and if we are still drawing either 15 minutes before half time or before full time I up the mentality to positive 

I was under the impression that positive mentality with a higher tempo would make players rush there passes etc and lose the ball often

Can I ask am I missing anything with my system?

[jakem016]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Also, if you use a BPD - and I don't know if your CB is suitable for the role - you should not put him on the same side as the playmaker. 

Curious as to why?  I've often though that it limits the bpd creativity as he focuses his passing towards the playmaker but is there anything else that I'm missing?

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, jakem016 said:

Curious as to why?  I've often though that it limits the bpd creativity as he focuses his passing towards the playmaker but is there anything else that I'm missing?

Essentially for better balance. Because both BPD and PM tend to play risky (speculative) passes, so there's the risk you'll see too many of those passes on one side of the pitch. Which can make sense though if you specifically target a fast forward who attacks the space on that particular side. In his tactic however, the only attack-duty players are on the left side, not right. 

[FMunderachiever]

I think an issue with this formation may possibly be, that opposition teams can defend deep and narrow against you, because no one is really attacking the box, and they can crowd out your striker.

Id be more inclined to have the wing and full back having a more attacking role and pushing on. It may help create an overload down one side. Id target a right sided overload because it may free some more room for your central midfielder to make a run into the box. It should also stretch the back line wider, unless they want to give those players down the wings license to do what they want.

Is the anchor man necessary? If teams are camping against you, do you need the security of the anchor man against the counter attack, or could you afford to maybe play a player in the number 10 role who can create and find the killer pass?

 

Maybe another option you have as well, is to lose the "prevent short GK distribution" instruction, so your players arent pushed up too high against the defensive line of the opposition and allow them to come forward more and be more available for a pass, to create space for your striker to run towards goal. At the moment, he spends more time running backwards in his DLF role.

 

there is always the possibility too, of going direct and bombarding the opposition into submission with constant pressure and an overloaded box to deal with.

 

[Experienced Defender]

31 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

I was under the impression that positive mentality with a higher tempo would make players rush there passes etc and lose the ball often

Not if you have good players and if you offset it a bit with shorter passing, play out of defence and work ball into box TIs (plus, you said your team is among the strongest). Higher tempo can be problematic on attacking mentality (and even more so on very attacking), but on positive it can work pretty well. However, you don't necessarily have to use higher tempo, or at least not all the time. You can switch it between standard and higher and  see which works better for your team.

 

37 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

Can I ask am I missing anything with my system?

The tactic is okay in terms of overall balance. You have two attack duties on the same (left) side, but it's counter-balanced by a relatively conservative role for the fullback (FB on support). It seems that your idea is to focus the build-up on the right side (with the AP and others all being on support duty), and then switch it to the other side for the CM and winger looking to attack the box and space in general. Which as an idea is not bad, and can work under certain circumstances, but clearly not against ultra-defensive teams who pack their defense and put 9 or even all 10 men behind the ball.

Against such teams, you definitely need to play more adventurously. For example, I like to use an IWB on attack when I need an extra runner from deep, especially in a 4141DM Wide system, which is IMO the best balanced formation of all. And I prefer to pair him with the winger, so that one (winger) provides width in attack, and the other (IWB) acts as a latent goal-threat from a more central area. But do not use an IWB if you don't have the right player for the role (especially if you play him on attack duty). He needs a certain set of attributes (good acceleration and pace, as well as decisions, anticipation, work rate, teamwork and stamina, along with off the ball, first touch, composure and at least decent technique and passing).

If you don't have such a player, you can try with a standard FB on attack paired with an IF (also) on attack, with a DLP or carrilero covering the flank. Again, everything depends on what each of these players is capable of.

Here I can give you just one example of how you may possibly set up roles and duties in a high-risk 4141dm wide trying to break down an ultra-defensive opponent:

PO

Wat                                   IFsu

DLPsu    CMat

ACM

IWBat     CDde   CDde     FBat

SKsu

As you can see, there are as many as 5 attack duties in this system. So the level of risk is clearly very high, but given how extremely defensive the opposition is, it can be assumed that your defense supported by an anchorman should be able to deal with a possible counter-attack.

As for mentality and team instructions, they can vary and will therefore probably need some tweaking. But basically, you may start with something like this:

Balanced mentality (with 5 attack duties, it's now a lot more attacking even without a mentality change). Alternatively, you can up it to Positive (and in that case maybe - but just maybe - change the RB from FB on attack to WB on support, but with the Overlap right TI added).

In possession, given that there are so many attack duties in the above setup. I would look to be a bit more patient in the build-up, so that you would have as many players as possible in the final third when the ball gets there. For example:

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work  ball into box (you can optionally add "Be more expressive", to encourage the players to think outside the box a bit more).

In transition, counter is simply a must. Also, given that you clearly don't want to let the opposition keep the ball and thus waste time, counter-press is another must. As for GK distribution, you should logically go with the "Distribute quickly" and to CBs and FBs.

Out of possession, I would look to avoid the mistake a lot of people tend to make. I am referring to more (or even extremely) urgent pressing. Instead, I would go with split-press, which means telling 4-5 most advanced players to close down more (maximum pressing urgency) in their player instructions. In this case these would be the striker, both wide forwards and both CMs. 

Other out-of-possession instructions:

- higher d-line, much higher LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GK distribution and use offside trap

But bear in mind that this type of extremely risky tactic should be used only against extremely defensive opposition. 

Any questions?

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

There is also an option of not using the Prevent short GKD, but instead applying aggressive OIs on the opposition defense and a DM (if they use him). These OIs are Always close down and Tackle harder on their CBs and FBs/WBs and DMs. That can either force them into making a costly mistake or help you win the ball in a dangerous area from where you can launch a swift (semi)counter.

[Ciderarmy]

Many thanks for all the replies that has been fantastic and has given me plenty of food for thought 

I will definitely play around with my tactic and use the advice given 

Like I said I was really enjoying my tactic last season and the combination on the right flank was a joy to watch but this season I've definitely found it a struggle to break teams down.

 

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

Like I said I was really enjoying my tactic last season and the combination on the right flank was a joy to watch but this season I've definitely found it a struggle to break teams down.

 

Because they now respect you more due to your good results in the last season, and have adapted their tactic accordingly. That happens to many people. 

[jakem016]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because they now respect you more due to your good results in the last season, and have adapted their tactic accordingly. That happens to many people. 

Welcome to the the world of facing a defensive 5-4-1 or 4-1-4-1 every week.

 

[SpartanUTD]

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because they now respect you more due to your good results in the last season, and have adapted their tactic accordingly. That happens to many people. 

To much respect got me 10th position to date

Although I'm still stack at FM2013, I'll still adopt some of these hints for my tactics too.