3-6-1 A Logical Step

[OJ403]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The biggest problem I am finding about this particular formation is that my fullbacks Ward (on the right) and Souare (on the left) would have to be dropped out, as they can only play in fullback and wingback positions.

Or would they...?

When I posted my 3-6-1 variant suggestions, there was one I left out. It was similar to the 3-2-4-1, in fact you'd still classify it as that, only with WBs rather than DMs. It would probably look a little like this:

And without the ball like this:

You'd still keep a 3-6-1 of sorts with and without the ball, but be able to include Ward and Souare, just at Puncheon and Lee's expense. Not sure if he can play there or not, but if I he can I'd use Zaha as the IW-A in this shape. I suppose by including WBs (wide 3-6-1) over AMs (narrow 3-6-1) you trade off some central presence for width, which would particularly useful in the defensive phase. I'd imagine a narrow 3-6-1 would be vulnerable against the attacking 4-2-3-1s and 4-3-3s of the Premier League giants, whilst the wide 3-6-1 would allow you to counteract their wide threat better. You could switch between the wide and narrow shapes depending on opponent.

[Experienced Defender]

55 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

When I posted my 3-6-1 variant suggestions, there was one I left out. It was similar to the 3-2-4-1, in fact you'd still classify it as that, only with WBs rather than DMs.

Yes, but we were talking specifically about @BJT's 3-4-2-1 without WBs and/or DMs, not 3-2-4-1 or some other variation of 3-6-1. The good thing is that I have another save with Sunderland, which I use primarily for experimenting with tactics, so I'm gonna try all these ideas and variations there, rather than with Palace (which is my main save and so I really look to play seriously with them 

[OJ403]

Fair dos. Was just taking @BJT's shape and trying to work out how you could apply it to a Palace side. Suppose I do have a tendency to be a bit of square pegs, round holes kind of a manager. Hopefully I'll be able to get on my save today and work on my interpretation, as thats all formation and FM is, different interpretations of any one given thing.

[BJT]

Quote

nd without the ball like this:

That screenshot almost gave me a heart attack!

With Palace, naturally if going for a 361 I'd look at a 3151 if not you aren't intending to use wingbacks. I do tend to look at whether formations are top heavy or not to determine what shape is going to be best suited.

There's no harm in trying to get a 3421 going with CP, but I'd consider it a more offensive formation given there are no players in the DM zone. So that would instantly say to me playing counter or defensive with a lower defensive line isn't something I'd consider.

Quote

The biggest problem I am finding about this particular formation is that my fullbacks Ward (on the right) and Souare (on the left) would have to be dropped out, as they can only play in fullback and wingback positions.

You're right here, and I think with CP you'd definitely want wing-backs involved. And although I hate asymmetrical formations but I would be receptive to giving Oj403's suggestion a go! I don't think we'll get closer to agreeing on something

However from my book, I would move the Winger Slots up a notch so they would occupy the AML and AMR positions. I'd leave the wing-backs as they are, and rather than having a DLP and BBM, I would go for a defensive central midfielder and an advanced playmaker support. I'd also have a BPD in the centre back slot, but the wide CB's as regular CB's on defend duty.

I'd also have a completed forward on support, as my game would be more to the fluid side, pressing high up again and playing shorter passing and an attacking game, taking the game to the opposition and with a higher tempo using the width of the pitch.

                       SK D

          CB D   BPD D   CB D

WB A                                  WBA

                CM D   AP S

IF A                                    IF A

                     CF S

I'm about to give one more 361 variant a crack - it would probably be my most favoured of the shapes. The 3421 worked well, but it was only marginally better for possession than the 3151 which is what I want in my exercise. The diamond shape of the 31411 is what I'm going to give a go at and if I had to use a 361 I would pick first hand.

OJ will love this one:

             SK D  

    BPD D   CB D   BPD D

                DLP D

WA    MEZ S    MEZ S   WA

               AP A

               CF S

You'll notice this time around my Mezzala's are on support duty rather than attack like in the 3151. As I now have someone in the AM strata available with an attack duty, I think there is enough offensive potency this time around to not need the Mezzala's on attack. So with them being on support, I'm hoping ball retention will be better as I would expect a more patient approach will naturally take place.

 

 

[OJ403]

3 minutes ago, BJT said:

OJ will love this one:

             SK D  

    BPD D   CB D   BPD D

                DLP D

WA    MEZ S    MEZ S   WA

               AP A

               CF S

Not entirely sure love is the word that springs to mind... 😂😂

But your logic sounds sound. I'd be tempted to go for a box to box of CM-S on one side just to stop both CMs doing the same job. You'd keep the same duties and your structured press, but create a slightly different attacking dimension. But, yet again, this is just a personal preference and probably not wholey necessary. I am a fan of the AP-A/AM-A behind a CF-S though, I love the overlap it causes in central areas as opposed to out wide, so defenders cannot use the touchline as an extra defender.

[Experienced Defender]

@BJT @OJ403 I finally found some time to play the game and test my version of 3-4-2-1 with Sunderlend in a pre-season friendly against Austria Wien. We won 3-1, so it worked well I guess. However, I would not use this formation with a team such as Sunderland against a stronger OP because it can be very risky defensively. Simply, you need a certain type of midfielders (particularly central) for this tactic to be solid defensively. More precisely, the midfielders need to have better positioning, acceleration and tackling in the first place than mine at Sunderland do if they are to provide better defensive cover. On the other hand, the tactic really looks good in the attacking phase. Here are a few screenshots...

The starting formation / tactic:

 

The counter 3-1-4-2 Counter/Structured, which I switched to in the 2nd half:

Starting formations:

A screenshot made immediately after we took a 1-0 lead:

And finally...

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hyrule_king]

Just won the Premier League with my Ipswich team in the 10th season of being in the prem. I switch to a 3421:

 

SK-su

WBR & WBL- Att

LCB & RCB - De

Central CB - stopper

LCM - Mezzala - su

RCM - Cariello - Su

RW - Ramdeuter

AMC - on the left of the AMC positions - AP-Att

STC - CF - Att

[OJ403]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Firstly thanks for reminding me George Honeyman exists. He was a legend of the National League to League One days in my Nuneaton save.

Shape wise I like it. Only tweaks I'd make is the MEZ-S, purely because I'm not a fan using CMs with the roam from positon PI in midfield twos. But thats personal preference over a tactial necessity. If you were to use it against bigger sides (who do you class as these bigger sides?) I'd be tempted to use a fairly static partnership of Gibson/Cattermole in the middle in either the CM or DM strata, depending on if you wanted to negate their AM(s) or CM(s). Possibly CM-D/BWM-D, a simple if you try to come past we'll just kick the f*ck out of you, so don't bother.

Personally I've sadly ditched mine. I really want to win the UCL and Prem in my save before FM19 and with FIFA 19 coming out soon and my workload piling up play tine could be limited, so I don't really want to spend my time tweaking a system I don't have the squad for and may or may not be good enough to win one or both of those competitions. However, I do plan to use a variant of these systems to help develop an overall club philosophy in FM19, potentially in South America for something different then brought to Bilbao after a few seasons when the games more populated by Basque regens....

And @forlegaizen, are you still working on this?

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

Firstly thanks for reminding me George Honeyman exists

Not only that he exists, but scored our 1st goal and gave us the lead  And was generally playing very well.

But apart from this (experimental) match, I generally don't intend to use a 3-4-2-1 with Sunderland. I'm most probably going to switch between 4-1-3-1-1Wide and 4-1-4-1.

9 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

who do you class as these bigger sides?

Well, compared to Sunderland, quite a few teams could be considered "bigger sides", especially from the Premier League. We will fortunately not have to play against any of them in the league, but could face some in cup competitions.

[forlegaizen]

@OJ403 Unfortunately  I had some disk problems and ended up losing the save...

[OJ403]

51 minutes ago, forlegaizen said:

@OJ403 Unfortunately  I had some disk problems and ended up losing the save...

Gutted for you mate, and selfishly myself. Was really enjoying this thread. Any future 3-6-1 related plans?

[forlegaizen]

19 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Gutted for you mate, and selfishly myself. Was really enjoying this thread. Any future 3-6-1 related plans?

Probably when FM19 comes out, it is certanly something I am interested in

[BJT]

My time's been a limited lately, normally only get the weekends to have a play about with work and that too. I did have one more of your 361 variants I wanted to give a crack at.

Quote

First thing that came to mind with this was...Brazil! That comes from the Box midfield that is setup in place. With that in mind, you can probably guess exactly how I'd look to set this one up...

SK-D

BPD-D

CD-D

BPD-D

REG-S

REG-S

WG-A

WG-A

TQ-A

TQ-A

AF-A

The lack of the second striker will probably mean it won't be so potent going forward. But I think this will result in some really nice fluid football that can be played all the way from the back. It should have a little more defensive security with the third centreback in place, although we will of course still be vulnerable on the flanks.

Sometimes I wish you could somehow pick players from the past to fill in some of these roles and just watch them play  Kaka, Ronaldinho, the real Ronaldo and Pirlo instantly come into mind. Then throw in Maldini, Baresi, Puyol and it would look menacing already

I've made a start and it's looking good so far. It's probably looking like my favourite system from an aesthetic point of view at this moment in time. Whether it gets the job done though I'll find out soon enough.

 

 

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, BJT said:

My time's been a limited lately, normally only get the weekends to have a play about with work and that too. I did have one more of your 361 variants I wanted to give a crack at.

First thing that came to mind with this was...Brazil! That comes from the Box midfield that is setup in place. With that in mind, you can probably guess exactly how I'd look to set this one up...

SK-D

BPD-D

CD-D

BPD-D

REG-S

REG-S

WG-A

WG-A

TQ-A

TQ-A

AF-A

The lack of the second striker will probably mean it won't be so potent going forward. But I think this will result in some really nice fluid football that can be played all the way from the back. It should have a little more defensive security with the third centreback in place, although we will of course still be vulnerable on the flanks.

Sometimes I wish you could somehow pick players from the past to fill in some of these roles and just watch them play  Kaka, Ronaldinho, the real Ronaldo and Pirlo instantly come into mind. Then throw in Maldini, Baresi, Puyol and it would look menacing already

I've made a start and it's looking good so far. It's probably looking like my favourite system from an aesthetic point of view at this moment in time. Whether it gets the job done though I'll find out soon enough.

 

 

I hope that works, double regista double trequartista double attacking wingers as only men on the flank, sounds completely bonkers.  Bonkers as in fun!

[Old No7]

Really interesting thread, a system I'd like to give a go. Particularly interested in the idea of a double pivot in the DM strata & going counter mentality. Something proper shithouse along the lines of @OJ403 had in his catalan cattenacio.

Any suggestions of teams to get started with? I'd prefer it not to be a top side

[BJT]

Quote

I hope that works, double regista double trequartista double attacking wingers as only men on the flank, sounds completely bonkers.  Bonkers as in fun!

I've played a good few seasons now...and I can say it works picture perfect  I had my plan and my favourite XI players of two decades ago in my head and it sure as hell is fun to watch when a vision comes to plan! I've had success in the Prem, La Liga and the Serie A with it so far. 

Tried getting a video going of a clip of it in action although it seems buggy to get working. Did eventually get one, although you have to wait 17 seconds before it actually shows :x

 

It's never going to be the most effective system because it just tries to incorporate pure offensive play with elegance, and so will rely on bits of individual brilliance and the team having to play well to get results. But I think it's probably my favourite system I've ever made because it does exactly that. 

Thank you very much for the thread - I wouldn't have come up with the idea otherwise!

[OJ403]

1 hour ago, Old No7 said:

Really interesting thread, a system I'd like to give a go. Particularly interested in the idea of a double pivot in the DM strata & going counter mentality. Something proper shithouse along the lines of @OJ403 had in his catalan cattenacio.

Any suggestions of teams to get started with? I'd prefer it not to be a top side

So then, the Catalan Catenaccio (purely dupped such as it was a defensive tactic that I beat Barcelona with - its by no means a reflection of the Inter Catenaccio side) was great fun. It was created in the last week of FM17 and used in just 3 matches, if I remember correctly. These were both UCL semi legs against Barcelona and the final against Man U. In fact the shithousery was so glorious I actually used to load up FM17 just to rewatch the highlights, until I moved laptops after Christmas and thus the save and tactic were lost. As a result, I'm pretty blurry regarding the TIs, but I can confirm it was counter/very-fluid. Pretty sure we were more disciplined, exploited the middle, retained possession, passed shorter and got stuck in. The roles I do remember clearly, they were as follows:Hope this can be of some use.

And team wise, my Derby side were 3 times Europa League winners and serial top 4 members. We finished that season second, won the FA Cup and Champions League, so you would have classed us as a bigger side. Technically we were very good, particularly the most advanced 4; but our main strengths were our height, physical capabilities and work rate across the pitch. So this system could indeed work with a perceived bigger side. However the matches I used it in were against far superior sides, so maybe being a tad weaker could be beneficial. If I were to suggest a few teams they'd probably be these:

Leicester City: good physical, hard working squad. Vardy well equipped to rat and lead the line alone. Massive centre halves and Maguire should have good technical abilities, if you wanted to be a bit more positive. Maybe lack quality wing backs though.

Derby County: this is the club I support, so I know them well. Plenty of good midfielders with good technicals for ball retention, plus a blend of the more experienced/physical (Johnson and Ledley) too. Lots of good defenders and Olsson is a class LWB. Might lack a quality striker though (but we won't on FM19 with Waghorn and Marriott). Plus you'll be shithousing in the prem come season two with any luck.

Spurs: slightly more outside the box, but the same logic applies. Players like Eriksen and Alli could thrive driving forward to link up with Kane. Some of the best WBs in the Prem and the same for CBs. They might be too good in comparison to most domestic sides though, but could be an interesting option

Create a Club: if this is going to be your last forage into FM18 before the release of 19, why not create a club to cut out some of the hassle of squad building and go straight to the tactical side of things? For example, the system doesn't need wingers at all, so why have them? If so I'd gladly help you decide the sort of players you'd pick.

Just bear in mind I haven't looked at any of these sides at the start of the game, so my statements are purely how I'd imagine their squad to look and by no means a reflection of how they do.

[Old No7]

9 hours ago, OJ403 said:

So then, the Catalan Catenaccio (purely dupped such as it was a defensive tactic that I beat Barcelona with - its by no means a reflection of the Inter Catenaccio side) was great fun. It was created in the last week of FM17 and used in just 3 matches, if I remember correctly. These were both UCL semi legs against Barcelona and the final against Man U. In fact the shithousery was so glorious I actually used to load up FM17 just to rewatch the highlights, until I moved laptops after Christmas and thus the save and tactic were lost. As a result, I'm pretty blurry regarding the TIs, but I can confirm it was counter/very-fluid. Pretty sure we were more disciplined, exploited the middle, retained possession, passed shorter and got stuck in. The roles I do remember clearly, they were as follows:Hope this can be of some use.

And team wise, my Derby side were 3 times Europa League winners and serial top 4 members. We finished that season second, won the FA Cup and Champions League, so you would have classed us as a bigger side. Technically we were very good, particularly the most advanced 4; but our main strengths were our height, physical capabilities and work rate across the pitch. So this system could indeed work with a perceived bigger side. However the matches I used it in were against far superior sides, so maybe being a tad weaker could be beneficial. If I were to suggest a few teams they'd probably be these:

Leicester City: good physical, hard working squad. Vardy well equipped to rat and lead the line alone. Massive centre halves and Maguire should have good technical abilities, if you wanted to be a bit more positive. Maybe lack quality wing backs though.

Derby County: this is the club I support, so I know them well. Plenty of good midfielders with good technicals for ball retention, plus a blend of the more experienced/physical (Johnson and Ledley) too. Lots of good defenders and Olsson is a class LWB. Might lack a quality striker though (but we won't on FM19 with Waghorn and Marriott). Plus you'll be shithousing in the prem come season two with any luck.

Spurs: slightly more outside the box, but the same logic applies. Players like Eriksen and Alli could thrive driving forward to link up with Kane. Some of the best WBs in the Prem and the same for CBs. They might be too good in comparison to most domestic sides though, but could be an interesting option

Create a Club: if this is going to be your last forage into FM18 before the release of 19, why not create a club to cut out some of the hassle of squad building and go straight to the tactical side of things? For example, the system doesn't need wingers at all, so why have them? If so I'd gladly help you decide the sort of players you'd pick.

Just bear in mind I haven't looked at any of these sides at the start of the game, so my statements are purely how I'd imagine their squad to look and by no means a reflection of how they do.

Thanks, that's a nice starting point. I've got some ideas off this thread but I'm really bad at deciding i want to do something & rigidly forcing it on a squad! 

Leicester are a team that have intrigued me for a while but never given them a go, so it seems the perfect opportunity. I do like to start outside the top tier usually & work my way up though so maybe Derby (another club I've never had a save with).

Got a bit of time this week so I'll  look at both & get started 

[OJ403]

11 minutes ago, Old No7 said:

Got a bit of time this week so I'll  look at both & get started 

Glad to be of service mate and please keep me posted with how things get on

[Old No7]

Ok so early stages & definitely gong to be some tweaking required

 

The squad lacks a playmaker who could either play deep or in the middle, Silva you might think can but has the PPM plays simple passes. So with that in mind I have tried to make the middle physical so we are hard to play through. The other role I'm struggling with is the AMC, I have Mahrez but he doesn't want to hang around. Okizaki is an option there, whilst Demari Gray could be trained to play there too & will have to as i'm not looking to play him out wide. Neither really suited to play as a Treq, probably better as a SS, however will that work with an AF? AF seems the obvious way to use Vardy or Iheanacho & I wanted a treq for some kind of link up play considering the lack of playmaker. I didn't really want to have a stopper in defence but Morgan is just so suited to it.

As for the TI's I didn't initially select work ball into box, but in our first friendly we had a lot of shots off target & Albrighton was crossing loads, 20 attempts with  just a 10% completion & we were having a lot of shots off target. The original idea was to be hard to break down, winning the ball back in the middle & look to hit space on the counter, if they go wide we have 3 at the back & a DM so should be able to deal with crosses.

Played two friendlies, a 1-1 away draw with Paritzan, took the lead, conceded a from a free kick that came back out from the box after being cleared & then nobody closed down & they scored there only shot on target from outside the box. Then a 2-2 draw at home to Benfica, where we took a 2-0 half time lead before they scored again from a free kick which was a little similar, deep this time taken short, no closing down & they worked it. Then a late equaliser from a cross, maybe I should have put the wingbacks to defend late on & close it out. Slightly worried there could be a trend with the free kicks, maybe need some PI's from the CM's to close down more though it's hard coded in the BWM already.

Vardy scored in both games which was encouraging, we had 57% possession in the first game but only 47% next up.

Last thing I'm unsure on is team shape, I'm wary of going fluid due to the lack of passing ability in this side, I went structured but I don't think that's right so I've just changed it to flexible. Though perhaps with the be more disciplined TI fluid could be ok. That said I'm more concerned by conceding 3 than I am with the attack so far.

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, Old No7 said:

The squad lacks a playmaker who could either play deep or in the middle, Silva you might think can but has the PPM plays simple passes. So with that in mind I have tried to make the middle physical so we are hard to play through. The other role I'm struggling with is the AMC, I have Mahrez but he doesn't want to hang around. Okizaki is an option there, whilst Demari Gray could be trained to play there too & will have to as i'm not looking to play him out wide. Neither really suited to play as a Treq, probably better as a SS, however will that work with an AF? AF seems the obvious way to use Vardy or Iheanacho & I wanted a treq for some kind of link up play considering the lack of playmaker

Have you considered using Mahrez in the AMC position as an APM on support in combination with Vardy as a poacher instead of AF? 

 

29 minutes ago, Old No7 said:

Last thing I'm unsure on is team shape, I'm wary of going fluid due to the lack of passing ability in this side, I went structured but I don't think that's right so I've just changed it to flexible. Though perhaps with the be more disciplined TI fluid could be ok. That said I'm more concerned by conceding 3 than I am with the attack so far.

I think both structured and flexible are quite suitable shapes for a team such as Leicester playing on the counter mentality in this (narrow 5-4-1) formation.

Not sure about the "Get Stuck In", "Be More Disciplined" and "Dribble Less". Personally, I don't see the need to use those TIs, but it's up to you in the end. Work Into Box is okay, albeit also not necessary IMO. Finally, rather than Pas Into Space, a better option would be to instruct a couple of your best passers to play More Risky Passes. The effect would be more or less same (if not even better) when the team is attacking, plus the risk of giving away possession would be reduced.

[Old No7]

35 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Have you considered using Mahrez in the AMC position as an APM on support in combination with Vardy as a poacher instead of AF? 

 

I think both structured and flexible are quite suitable shapes for a team such as Leicester playing on the counter mentality in this (narrow 5-4-1) formation.

Not sure about the "Get Stuck In", "Be More Disciplined" and "Dribble Less". Personally, I don't see the need to use those TIs, but it's up to you in the end. Work Into Box is okay, albeit also not necessary IMO. Finally, rather than Pas Into Space, a better option would be to instruct a couple of your best passers to play More Risky Passes. The effect would be more or less same (if not even better) when the team is attacking, plus the risk of giving away possession would be reduced.

Mahrez would be ideal however he's likely to be sold, he wants to leave & big clubs want him. Poacher could be a good idea, both an AF & a treq look to move into channels so the poacher makes sense to keep our main threat in the middle.

I used flexible team shape in my next friendly, the wing backs were noticeably deeper so I think that's a better shape than structured.

I agree on the work ball into box TI, i wasn't looking to originally & i think that was just one friendly throwing me off course.

[OJ403]

Regarding Mahrez I'd do one of two things

1. Sell him and use the money to buy a creative central midfielder with a bit of power. E.g. a Milinkovic-Savic or Pogba type player. I'd then drop the attacking midfielder back to the central CM position as an AP-A. Overall I've struggled to get results out of a player in the AM strata and playing him as an out and out midfielder will help with compactness and with the right player/role you'll get the same attacking output.

2. Off set Mahrez to one side and Vardy to the other, to give an impression of a front two, just with the increased out put defensively. Role wise I don't know what to suggest, it'd be trial and error on you part.

Otherwise the tactic doesn't look to bad. Crossing wise, that ought to be one of your main outputs, so I'd invest in good WBs and just let them do their thing. Also you by default lack bodies in forward areas, so I wouldn't concern yourself with passing between the lines with a playmaker in deeper areas. For me your midfielders should be more positive direct runners willing to carry the ball forwards between eachother, then slot Vardy through or slip it to the WBs then get into the box for the cut back.

[Experienced Defender]

31 minutes ago, Old No7 said:

I used flexible team shape in my next friendly, the wing backs were noticeably deeper so I think that's a better shape than structured.

Okay, though I don't see why would you want the WBS to stay deeper, given that the formation is already defensive and bottom-heavy? With only 2 players up front (AMC & ST), it's not a bad idea to have WBs more involved in play higher up the pitch. And you can always tell them to cross from deep if you don't want them to bomb far forward too much  Alternatively, you can set one of them on Defend duty if you fear defensive vulnerability.

[Old No7]

On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 22:10, OJ403 said:

2. Off set Mahrez to one side and Vardy to the other, to give an impression of a front two, just with the increased out put defensively. Role wise I don't know what to suggest, it'd be trial and error on you part.

Kept hold of him surprisingly easily due to lack of offers & as you suggested found him to be more effective as part of a front 2.

6 games into the league season & a bit of a mixed bag so far, the attack has functioned better than I expected, getting goals form both Mahrez & Vardy, Iheanacho has been useful support too. However defensively we haven't been as effective as I was hoping with just the 1 clean sheet. 

I've been altering the TI's according to opposition, generally going more direct away from home when there might be a bit more space to exploit, not using that at home & looking for the overlap more. Also switching up the mentality of the wing backs depending on the situation, sometimes using one or both to attack or defend as required. Both defeats came late on which is frustrating, we held Spurs at home until 80 minutes, Newcastle away was worse as it was all going to plan. Having been on the backfoot the entire game we nicked the lead thanks to Vardy winning the ball back & playing in Mahrez. We continued to frustrate them until the 81st minute & to make it worse we conceded again just 2 minutes later. So I probably need to work on a way of seeing games out. Table would look promising early had we held on against Newcastle

Feels like there is some potential in this, just not got it quite right yet.

[Old No7]

So following on from my previous post our next game was a trip to Man City & a 4-0 thrashing, they scored 3 from there first 4 shots on target. After that game I noticed we were conceding more from crosses coming down our left flank, so I set the BWM to a defend duty to provide more protection down that side. 3 home matches followed & 3 wins all with clean sheets, maybe we have cracked it, but with trips to Liverpool & Arsenal to come we would soon find out otherwise.

I lost those games 4-2 & 3-2, pleased with our counter attacking & we had good chances in both to make it 3-3. We conceded penalties in both matches & Arsenal scored from a corner (after 50 seconds), an indirect free kick & from the spot. So thoughts were to remove the 'get stuck in' TI as we already have a fairly physical side & both CM's with the PI to close down more. A return to home next & another win & a clean sheet, next up Huddersfield & a chance to break our poor away form as they were 17th coming into the fixture.

We lined up like this:

The result? Another 4-0 thrashing & we hardly created anything either unlike against the bigger sides, also gave away another penalty! The 3 away defeats to Liverpool, Arsenal & Huddersfield all playing a 4-2-3-1 & conceding 11 goals, not the defensively sound football I envisaged. 

We are badly struggling away from home in stark contrast to our good home form. At home we've played 6, won 5, losing 1-0 to Spurs, scoring 9 & conceding just 2

Away however we have played 7, drawn 2, lost 5, scoring 8 & conceding a woeful 20. Some mitigation in that we have played City, Liverpool & Arsenal away, but that Huddersfield thrashing has stumped me.

Not sure what my next move is but clearly my tactic isn't working away & I seem to be getting worse

[OJ403]

Looks at face value like you have an awful lot of defensive minded players in a an already deep formation, with little penetration from midfield.

Your main outlets are your wingbacks, but who are they crossing to? And whose supplying them the ball?

Whos the T-A creating space for? Similarly whos the DF linking up with?

Personally I'd go for a more pentrative role upfront than a DF (P/AF) and a midfielder runner (CM-A/AP-A). I'd then become a bit more fluid to make you more compact, but then tick be more disciplined to dial down the creative freedom. I'd probably drop more direct passing as well, but possibly play on higher tempo, but that is only a maybe.

[Old No7]

19 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

Looks at face value like you have an awful lot of defensive minded players in a an already deep formation, with little penetration from midfield.

Your main outlets are your wingbacks, but who are they crossing to? And whose supplying them the ball?

Whos the T-A creating space for? Similarly whos the DF linking up with?

Personally I'd go for a more pentrative role upfront than a DF (P/AF) and a midfielder runner (CM-A/AP-A). I'd then become a bit more fluid to make you more compact, but then tick be more disciplined to dial down the creative freedom. I'd probably drop more direct passing as well, but possibly play on higher tempo, but that is only a maybe.

The attack seems to be functioning quite well though, Vardy has 9 league goals & Mahrez 3, Iheanacho has 3 also. I did originally go with a poacher up front but found the DF to be more effective which I admit was a surprise but hey it works. It's the fact I'm shipping so many away from home that worries me, we don't have that issue at home. Or am I missing something? Are you suggesting that we are losing possession too much because of this roles & it's putting pressure on the defence, especially away.

[OJ403]

Pleased that your attack is good, means you've only got one issue to fix.

Potentially yes. It could be an issue that you lack options a lot of the time, thus forcing certain players to have to do too much and being caught out. Also by having such negative duties, you may also be too passive. Plus if your looking to shithouse, you need to prevent the opposition from creating chances and how better to do that by keeping the ball? Plus by having such similar duties, your players should be pretty close together.

Hopefully that makes sense and is helpful

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Old No7 said:

So following on from my previous post our next game was a trip to Man City & a 4-0 thrashing, they scored 3 from there first 4 shots on target. After that game I noticed we were conceding more from crosses coming down our left flank, so I set the BWM to a defend duty to provide more protection down that side. 3 home matches followed & 3 wins all with clean sheets, maybe we have cracked it, but with trips to Liverpool & Arsenal to come we would soon find out otherwise.

I lost those games 4-2 & 3-2, pleased with our counter attacking & we had good chances in both to make it 3-3. We conceded penalties in both matches & Arsenal scored from a corner (after 50 seconds), an indirect free kick & from the spot. So thoughts were to remove the 'get stuck in' TI as we already have a fairly physical side & both CM's with the PI to close down more. A return to home next & another win & a clean sheet, next up Huddersfield & a chance to break our poor away form as they were 17th coming into the fixture.

We lined up like this:

The result? Another 4-0 thrashing & we hardly created anything either unlike against the bigger sides, also gave away another penalty! The 3 away defeats to Liverpool, Arsenal & Huddersfield all playing a 4-2-3-1 & conceding 11 goals, not the defensively sound football I envisaged. 

We are badly struggling away from home in stark contrast to our good home form. At home we've played 6, won 5, losing 1-0 to Spurs, scoring 9 & conceding just 2

Away however we have played 7, drawn 2, lost 5, scoring 8 & conceding a woeful 20. Some mitigation in that we have played City, Liverpool & Arsenal away, but that Huddersfield thrashing has stumped me.

Not sure what my next move is but clearly my tactic isn't working away & I seem to be getting worse

It's no wonder that City thrashed you, and that you had problems dealing with crosses, when you played with both attacking wingbacks against a much stronger team than yours (plus playing away from home). Puting a BWM on defend may mitigate the problem a bit, but it's not going to solve it altogether, because even the best BWM in the world is not almighty and cannot work miracles. 

[Old No7]

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's no wonder that City thrashed you, and that you had problems dealing with crosses, when you played with both attacking wingbacks against a much stronger team than yours (plus playing away from home). Puting a BWM on defend may mitigate the problem a bit, but it's not going to solve it altogether, because even the best BWM in the world is not almighty and cannot work miracles. 

Sorry that screenshot is misleading, I'm not completely mad! I had used attacking wing backs at home against opposition we could beat but not away, support possibly defend. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Old No7 said:

Sorry that screenshot is misleading, I'm not completely mad! I had used attacking wing backs at home against opposition we could beat but not away, support possibly defend.

Okay, but even then having both WBs on attack duty is quite risky because any opposition will look to exploit your insufficiently protected flanks. When you play against a weaker team, they will logically tend to sit back and defend, but when they get the ball, they'll try to counter-attack you through those areas where you have weaknesses they can exploit. If you have one WB on attack, the other should be either on support or even on defend. The CB nearest to the attacking WB could go with Cover duty, in which case he would need good positioning, anticipation, concentration, decisions and preferably acceleration (to name just a few most important attributes).

[Old No7]

OK after some thought & watching the @Rashidi block it like Burnley video I had a bit of a rethink & saw some improved results such as winning at Everton & Spurs & home wins over City & Arsenal. These improved performances saw us climb the table to sit comfortably 7th with 8 games to go & with an outside chance of finishing higher, we'd also put together a good FA cup run & reached the semi finals.

The wheels rather fell off at that point in the league. We went an awful run losing 7 & drawing 1, ended up 10th which was disappointing as I had hoped for a Europa place . We did get to the FA cup final though & faced Arsenal though hoping to repeat the league win, no such luck & our rubbish form continued comprehensively beaten 3-0.

I did think some of the roles weren't really right for how we wanted to play. I was keen to recruit an AP for one of the midfield roles as suggested by @OJ403 & DLF up front to replace the Treq. The good news is you have a healthy budget at Leicester (£50m) & plenty of players you can sell, we had a busy summer:

We now have 2 ways of lining up, a complete low block & a slightly less defensive shape for playing weaker sides at home but still counter attacking (I do switch to control later if a goal is needed).

It's early days so far in season 2 but very encouraging so far given the opposition we've faced

I've probably rather gone off the point of the 3-6-1 the thread is supposed to be about so I don't want to derail it, but thanks for the help & I'll update you on how season 2 goes.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Old No7 said:

It's early days so far in season 2 but very encouraging so far given the opposition we've faced

Now you can see how more solid defensive shape you have gotten by only changing your WBs duties from attack to support. And what is more, it obviously does not affect your attacking performance if judged by your recent results.