TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[-=[MaVeRiXxX]=-]

MESSAGE FOR TIGERS FOREVER!

first of all I would like to say that I am extremely interested in knowing of your person has ever been in any kind of educational environment?

As for the being a "punk", let me give you some clear and obvious education, watch carefully, I'll only type it once:

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Great thread guys, very interesting read!

Just hoping to pick your brains if I can.

I'm playing in the PD with Hull City, my squad is mostly rated by my (any good?) Assistent at 4 stars.

I've been using the Def.Away Tactic in a 4-4-2 Diamond for all my games where the scout tells me that the Opp. are playing a Def.Counter system.

It was very successful for a season leading me to 7th place in the PD.

Problem is now I seem to have fallen foul of the re-ranking that wwfan talks about,

now most teams are playing a (flat?) 4-4-2 against me with, so far as i can tell, less Counter Att.

If I stick with the Def.Away Tactic I end up with about 50/50 Pos.,

but the Opp. far outdo me in the Action Zones with most of my Pos. in my defence and midfield, and theirs in midfield and attack.

I'm thinking I should go more attacking and push the DL up, but I'm not sure if this will just result in me shipping goals.

Plus, when I play a team that does still use the Def. 4-4-2 with Counter I am even losing to, or drawing with them.

Anyone have any ideas?

AND THANKS IN ADVANCE YOU BUNCH OF GREAT PEOPLE HELPERS, for every person you made just that little bit more happy!!!

Cheers, "Tigers Forever!"

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newayzmedidthis2helpu,uc?

peaceout!

Cheers, R.

[tigers forever]

Maverick,

Yes my education is fine thanks, I just tend to get a bit lazy when I'm typing on the internet and post things without reading back over them, apologies if it was hard to read.

As for the last part I thought that my appreciation of the hard work that everyone in this thread has done was implied in the first line of the previous post.

If not then I'd like to make it obvious that I'm amazed and very appreciative of the amount of effort that has gone into this thread in particular as it saved me from chucking my copy of fm out of the window!

[-=[MaVeRiXxX]=-]

Allright then tigers,

now that we're all good, if you can post your Team and Player Instructions I'm sure there will be someone offering you the help you (and me...) so desperately need.

From your information so far, I would recommend that you either try to dominate the Opp. by pushing further up and notching up your mentality as well, or go even more defensive and try to lure them into your counter.

Anyway, I wish you all the best and remember: Enjoy the game...

Cheers, R.

[tigers forever]

Ok, thanks for the input maverix, my instructions are as follows :

The ind instructions are on often for anyone with 15+ attributes for run with ball, crossing, try through balls and long shots, they are at rare for everyone else.

DMC's passing is at 8 with defs between 3-5 more and AMC, ML, MR and FC's between 3-5 less (don't have exact figures as I'm on another comp right now) width and tempo are at 10.

Everything else is at the settings outlined by wwfan in the opening post.

I did try going a little bit more attacking and higher up the pitch against the normal 4-4-2 by increasing all mentalities and d-line by 2 and I seemed to get out of my half more but went from 1-0 down to losing 4-1 so I'm not sure what to make of it. TIA for any help

[crazy gra]

As for your settings for the rarely-mixed-often silders, I tweaked my individual instructions so that most players were on rarely for most of those sliders. This seemed to work a bit better for me as at the moment I'm trying to make my forward play so that I'm getting better chances on goal. Hopefully by putting most player's sliders on rarely, they'll only do things if they have a high success rate and if not then they'll make a short pass to keep possession. Here's how I've changed those particular sliders:

Long shots - only the MCa on mixed (everyone else on rarely)

Through balls - both MCs on often (might reduce to mixed), FCa on rarely. All others on mixed

Run With Ball - All on mixed except wingers and FCa on often and GK and DCs on rarely.

Cross ball - Full backs and wingers on often. FCa on mixed, all others on rarely.

[tigers forever]

Through balls - both MCs on often (might reduce to mixed), FCa on rarely. All others on mixed

Run With Ball - All on mixed except wingers and FCa on often and GK and DCs on rarely.

Cross ball - Full backs and wingers on often. FCa on mixed, all others on rarely.

so are these settings the same even if you have someone who is poor at that stat? eg A winger with crossing <10 is still on cross often?

I always thought it is better to use your players' attributes as the basis for their instructions whereas you seem to base it on position, or is it a combination of the 2?

[cellz]

just a quick question..i started new game with colchester which is expected to be relegated..now i just can't seem to get the posession to work..what kind of passing style should i use?? i use mc as 11 and ml/r,fc as 6 and dl/r,dc,gk as 11 but never can get posession above 50%..

[cellz]

sorry i meant as for dl/r,dc,gk passing style as 16

[crazy gra]

Those passing settings are probably better suited to away games. At home you should be looking to have them ranging from about 3/4 for the STs down to about 6/7/8 for the MCd (and make the tempo the same level as the MCd's passing).

For the defenders it can be from 10-15 depending on how confident you are with them passing it around.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigers forever:

Through balls - both MCs on often (might reduce to mixed), FCa on rarely. All others on mixed

Run With Ball - All on mixed except wingers and FCa on often and GK and DCs on rarely.

Cross ball - Full backs and wingers on often. FCa on mixed, all others on rarely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so are these settings the same even if you have someone who is poor at that stat? eg A winger with crossing <10 is still on cross often?

I always thought it is better to use your players' attributes as the basis for their instructions whereas you seem to base it on position, or is it a combination of the 2?

As playing with a decent team I don't really have players with poor attributes, so yes I am basing those instructions on their position. However, even with someone like Scholes, I'll still only have long shots on mixed otherwise I'm forcing him into it too much if I set it to often. Even with players on rarely taking long shots, they still pick out good opportunities to take an effort.

I have played with lower league teams, though, and in league 2 I had a winger with crossing of 4 so in that case it probably would be wise to put crossing down to mixed.

[cellz]

something seems to be terribly wrong..i jus't can't seem to get it work..so far with colchester 9 games in league 1 won 4 draws amd 4 defeats..

[tigers forever]

thanks for the help gary, seems to be going a bit better now

[crazy gra]

gary?

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cellz:

something seems to be terribly wrong..i jus't can't seem to get it work..so far with colchester 9 games in league 1 won 4 draws amd 4 defeats.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try looking in here for more help.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

gary? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crazy Gary!

[cellz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cellz:

something seems to be terribly wrong..i jus't can't seem to get it work..so far with colchester 9 games in league 1 won 4 draws amd 4 defeats.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try looking in here for more help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok thanks

[crazy gra]

I realise that, but how can you turn 'gra' into 'gary'? I've had people call me 'crazy gar' before, but that was probably just a typo.

However, I wait until someone get's p*ssed off with me and refers to me as 'crazy gay'

To keep this on-topic, I'm currently experimenting on playing against teams who pack the midfield ala the 4-1-4-1 or the Chelsea 4-1-3-2. Trying different things to do with passing focus and width, as well as changing tempo and passing so that they're not far off the width setting.

[Dayle Wood]

I am having some added success by putting my central midfielders on hard tackling... I have ensured that they are players that are obviously high on tackling and stamina.

The result is that I am controlling the central midfield more and the AI are being forced to play the ball wide more.

[tigers forever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

gary? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oops typo, it was 3am and I read your name as crazy gary thanks for the help gra, see I got it right this time

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigers forever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

gary? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oops typo, it was 3am and I read your name as crazy gary thanks for the help gra, see I got it right this time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, tigers. Welcome to the thread.

In regard to your question about often/mixed, with the exception of forward runs which are positional tools, I would advise starting with nothing higher than mixed. If you check who is marking who, you will see some of your players will be facing up against opposition they can dominate. Thus, if you have a winger with dribbling of 19 against a full-back with tackling of 10, RWB on often would be beneficial. If, however, the FB has tackling of >14 then mixed is possibly the better choice. Likewise, if your best long shooting midifelder is being marked by a slow, cowardly player let him rip with the long shots as he will often be in space.

@ Dayle Wood: I have advocated hard tackling MCs in the away frameworks. Are you finding an increased performance by hard tackling in home matches?

@ crazy gra: The qoute you questioned was as follows:

wwfan: It is interesting you say that as I’m now top of the Championship with my small Blyth Spartans team and, against all my pre-season expectations, it looks like I will probably come first. I have now played variations of the tactics, with individual tweaks to incorporate specific incoming players, from Conf North through to Championship, and, apart form my keeper, all personnel have changed. You and a few others seems to be having issues with the away tactic, which, due to short-odds becoming more and more common, I have ceased using outside of cup games against Premiership opposition. I now use the AttAway almost exclusively and have had a couple of 3-0 wins and a 5-0 in recent matches. As suggested in the original posts, I always ‘Wish Luck’ and either use ‘Pleased’ or ‘We can win this’ at half-time.

As Millie posted in GQ (and thanks for the defence), despite my advice being as comprehensive as I can legitimately make it, I can’t replicate my decisions game in game out for those trying to implement my frameworks. My players are generally never below ‘Very Good’ in morale at any point in the season, and the few times a player drops to ‘Poor’ or ‘Very Poor’ a positive full-time team talk seems to do the trick. I have had problems with the frameworks when I have had a player way below divisional standard operating in a key position (FC, GK) but, if you match the passing to the ability of your MCs, and don’t get players to do things they can’t do (RWB for an FB with dribbling of 4) then you should get consistent performances.

Pete S: wwfan, time for me to eat some humble pie here, I think.

After making my previous post and having a good night's sleep (not easy with a new born baby!), I decided to have a look at your tactics again, try to see where I was going wrong and make a few changes to suit the individual players at my disposal. I also gave up using the 2 most defensive versions of you away tactic. Two seasons later, I am second in the premier league with Kettering Town.

It just goes to show that your basic theories hold up but that the game is now more sensitive to individual attributes, abilities and opposition tactics. You just have to think a little more than previous versions.

Thanks for the constructive response and further tips, I will keep these in mind as well.

Incidently, in case I never mention it, thanks for the continued support of the thread. You make it easier for me to manage after my long absences.

@ Nathan mufc fan: I would deepen the d-line to the lowest mentality outfield player in the framework.

@ Arthur Li: I started designing it on 7.0.0 and finished on 7.0.1, so it should work on both.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

@ crazy gra: The qoute you questioned was as follows:

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, it's clicked what you meant. I assume that you realised that Pete S was only responding to part of that long post by yourself. I've seen what he meant to do now. Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Incidently, in case I never mention it, thanks for the continued support of the thread. You make it easier for me to manage after my long absences.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that was aimed at me then it's no problem for me. I'm quite happy to answer most peoples problems, especially at weekends as I realise you don't get on here then.

It's only when someone asks a rather detailed question that I furrow my brow in a vain attempt to give a decent reply that I give up and just decide to leave it for you

[Guest]

Great!!

I have only question what training schedules using you by this.

[crazy gra]

More Notes on Rarely/Mixed/Often Sliders

As I noted earlier, I changed a lot of these sliders in my tactics and put them down to rarely or mixed. I reduced through balls on the MCs to mixed from often, hoping that this would keep possession better and not force them into looking for a killer ball.

The most effective thing I changed for my last game was to put crossing down to mixed from often for my wingers. My wingers in my last game were pretty good quality (Nani and Richardson) and I found that instead of cross a lot, they'd dribble past the opposing full back into the penalty area where only a short pass is needed for another player to have a decent chance.

[Stewie's Left Peg]

After implementing the frameworks I had some phenomenal success with Vauxhall Motors. I was expected to bravely battle releagation from Conference North, but instead I steamed through the competition and in the end won the division by 11 point, drawing 3 and losing 3 and winning the rest. But it's all gone pear shaped in the Conference National - I've lost 11 straight games and just cannot stop conceding goals home or away. I improved on my defence from last season with two two free transfer signings, but no matter what I do I just can't seem to win. I'm using the home and away frameworks wwfan described at the top of the thread, but no matter whether I tweak it or not I'm just getting nowhere

[crazy gra]

Vauxhall Motors - the nearest semi-pro team to where I live!

As for your games, I wouldn't tweak things too much. The best tip I can say is to try the away attacking tactic for home games. Most teams are going to expect to get something against you, even when you're at home so using that away attacking tactic may see you fare a little better.

Which away tactic are you using for most of your away games?

[seedhorse]

First of all thanks wwfan, reading your thread has occupied many a lunch hour of mine over the last couple of weeks. I have recently taken control of a club called Taranto in SerieB, and have stuck to your tactics rigidly. Overall they are working well for me but not as spectacularly as I first expected. I do well at home, and perform well away against good sides, although I do struggle in games against poor opposition when I am clear favourites away. Often in home games I concede early goals which is irritating although I can manage to pull it back (most of the time). Would you advise ever starting with the home attack formation when clearly favoured to win away?

Overall currently I am 8th in Serie B (3/4 through the season) having had a media prediction of 14th, being a candidate for relegation and 80/1 to win it. My team is performing above expectations I would just like to be able to turn a few more draws into wins and 0-1 defeats into draws.

Thanks

T

[Stewie's Left Peg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

Vauxhall Motors - the nearest semi-pro team to where I live!

As for your games, I wouldn't tweak things too much. The best tip I can say is to try the away attacking tactic for home games. Most teams are going to expect to get something against you, even when you're at home so using that away attacking tactic may see you fare a little better.

Which away tactic are you using for most of your away games? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the reply crazy gra, I've been using the very defensive away tactic below:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Away Framework

The basic away framework operates as a negative copy of the home framework. In opposition to the home framework, it concentrates entirely on defending. Assuming that the home side is focusing on attacking moves >75% of the time, a tactic that has eight of its eleven players focused on defending to greater degree should provide some stability. As three players are, although still defensive, looking to attack above 25% of the time there should be some attacking potential on the counter-attack. It primarily focuses on stopping the opposition playing and only looks to score from lightening raids and set pieces.

As for the home tactic, indicators of performance are possession and pass percentage. Unlike the home tactic, in which you should be seeing a relative advantage for your team, matching AI performance, you should be looking to match the AI in both areas. Possession should ideally hover around 50% but this can’t be guaranteed for away tactics. As long as it isn’t falling below 47% you should be relatively happy. Pass percentage is a more solid indicator of performance away and you should see your team dominate in this area. However, if you are achieving over 50% possession, pass percentage importance decreases.

Mentality

GK 1

DC 2

FB 3

MCd 4

ML/R 5

MCa 6

FC 7

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It worked fine in the Conference North, regularly scoring 3 or 4 goals and winning well, but I'm now losing but only by the odd goal, and quite often it's in the last five mins of a game.

I'll try the Away Attacking formation for nmy home games tonight and see how that goes - wish there was an option to "give almighty kick up the arse to all players"

[GM_Monkey]

I'djust like to add my thanks to you for this thread wwfan. I've tried to create my own tactic using a lot of your thoughts.

The home tactic I've created is working very well, I didn't lose a home game in the league (with Arsenal) and that included a 4-0 win over Man Utd. My away tactic seems to working a bit better now - eventually! I'd only won once away from home after 14 away games (7 draws, 6 defeats), but a few changes here and there saw me W3 D1 L1 of my remaing 5 away games.

I'm looking foward to next season now.

Thanks again for putting the fun back in FM07 for me.

[crazy gra]

Well I would suggest tweaking your current away tactic for the last 20 minutes (or whenever the opposition change to a 4-2-4 to try to get a late goal) so that you're more solid defensively, but if you're already using the away tactic then that's already very defensive anyway.

Going against wwfan's theories slighty, you may want to make your GK's mentality higher than 1. I have it at 10 for away games and 14 for home games so that the keeper has a license to rush out and clear long balls. For away games with the away tactic I'd have it at around 8.

[crazy gra]

My above post was in reply to Stewie btw.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by seedhorse:

First of all thanks wwfan, reading your thread has occupied many a lunch hour of mine over the last couple of weeks. I have recently taken control of a club called Taranto in SerieB, and have stuck to your tactics rigidly. Overall they are working well for me but not as spectacularly as I first expected. I do well at home, and perform well away against good sides, although I do struggle in games against poor opposition when I am clear favourites away. Often in home games I concede early goals which is irritating although I can manage to pull it back (most of the time). Would you advise ever starting with the home attack formation when clearly favoured to win away?

Overall currently I am 8th in Serie B (3/4 through the season) having had a media prediction of 14th, being a candidate for relegation and 80/1 to win it. My team is performing above expectations I would just like to be able to turn a few more draws into wins and 0-1 defeats into draws.

Thanks

T </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I reckon you should at least give the home tactic a good trial in 'easy' away games. In my tactic thread I get many people saying that my home tactic works well away from home as well as at home and that they prefer it to my away tactic in most games.

I never use the home tactic in away games, even though I'm playing as Man Utd so a lot of the away games should be 'easy' games for me, however, I still get very good results in away games with the 'away attacking' approach.

[wwfan]

Aye, now I'm in the Premiership with a very average squad I'm using the away system more frequently again after ignoring it for the best part of two seasons. I'm also having to use AttAway and HomeDef at home. If the Away isn't working, switch to the AttAway and see if you have more luck.

On a Personal Note

I have just been diagnosed with cubital tunnel syndrome in my left hand, which, although, hopefully, not serious and caught early, means I can only type one-handed as I have to keep my left arm straight. Hence, my posts will be shorter and sweeter than usual, which I'm sure will have most of you breathing deep sighs of relief. Oncee I recover, I'm sure I'll have a few thoughts to jot down, but until then it's question answering only!!

[panomaniac]

To be honest, tactics is all about common sense and how you want your team to play.

There is not set framework and to be honest I think he just overcomplicates things.

But fair play to him, he's allowed to play the game however he wants, everyone has the right to their own opinions, I just don't agree with wwfan's. If I'm being honest I'd say I prefer Cleon's ideas on tactics as he's quite similar to me in how I think about tactics.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by panomaniac:

To be honest, tactics is all about common sense and how you want your team to play.

There is not set framework and to be honest I think he just overcomplicates things.

But fair play to him, he's allowed to play the game however he wants, everyone has the right to their own opinions, I just don't agree with wwfan's. If I'm being honest I'd say I prefer Cleon's ideas on tactics as he's quite similar to me in how I think about tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I agree with you that Cleon's methods are exemplary, I do take issue with the concept that I overcomplicate things and he doesn't. I simply design alternative set-tactics, a la the AI, and employ them as and when I feel they are necessary. Cleon tweaks his tactic game in, game out in terms of countering scouted oppositinal threats and styles of play. It may be a method more similar to your prefered way of doing things, but less complex it is not!

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Aye, now I'm in the Premiership with a very average squad I'm using the away system more frequently again after ignoring it for the best part of two seasons. I'm also having to use AttAway and HomeDef at home. If the Away isn't working, switch to the AttAway and see if you have more luck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should post your team, then as a GPTG regular I can rate it poorly then look in awe of how you get all those crap players to do well in the prem

Incidentally, I was doing some tweaks to my tactic that I've played in away games to fast tempoed opposition and hoping that I'd be able to use this against any lower team as this tactic has a more possession approach to it and therefore more suited to playing teams I should beat. The tactic isn't too disimilar to my home tactic, but is slightly more defensive and has the d-line set at 6. I was thinking that the d-line should be a bit higher considering my passing level (at 6), but this caused my defenders to play the long ball upto my target man, who then must have given my quick ST at least 5 one on one chances from his flick-ons.

Not only did my deep d-line stretch out my play, but I also adopted a RoT system ranging from 6 for my DCs up to 14 for my STs. Thought this would be best to keep the system tight defensively but also so that my STs had quite an attacking mentality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

On a Personal Note

I have just been diagnosed with cubital tunnel syndrome in my left hand, which, although, hopefully, not serious and caught early, means I can only type one-handed as I have to keep my left arm straight. Hence, my posts will be shorter and sweeter than usual, which I'm sure will have most of you breathing deep sighs of relief. Oncee I recover, I'm sure I'll have a few thoughts to jot down, but until then it's question answering only!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to hear about that, pal. Is it bad? Easy to treat? How long does it last for? What does it actually do to your hand?

Hope it's alright soon

[wwfan]

It's not bad right now. It numbs the little finger, half the ring finger and the palm below. Rest and aspirin/ibuprofen to relieve nerve pressure is the first treatment which works 80% of the time. If it gets worse then keyhole surgery is required to free the nerve from the muscle putting the pressure on it.

[FourThreeThree]

I love the so called over complication, in fact, I would love even more because it is an intereting read on a subject I'm into. What we need now is a thread on wwfan's R&D of the game without thinking of the AI and bringing real world ways to outplay the opposition into FM

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FourThreeThree:

I love the so called over complication, in fact, I would love even more because it is an intereting read on a subject I'm into. What we need now is a thread on wwfan's R&D of the game without thinking of the AI and bringing real world ways to outplay the opposition into FM

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that outside of the mentality frameworks, most of what I suggest would translate into real-world language. The main issue in translation FM theory to real-world management is the complexity of mentality, which is SI's most important instruction yet in the style they present it close to irrelevant in real football.

[mk42]

very interesting, and i'm giving this a try for my new season. i downloaded your xmas tactic set, which seems to match what you've said here, and have made a few tweeks to suit my team (e.g. i'm not going to use a target man, as i don't want to be too one-dimensional, even if it is more effective).

so far so good, 8 wins from 8 in the premiership, including two in europe, and with a handy goal difference (something like 14-3). haven't played a top team yet though, and chelsea's next away so that will be the first real test ...

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FourThreeThree:

I love the so called over complication, in fact, I would love even more because it is an intereting read on a subject I'm into. What we need now is a thread on wwfan's R&D of the game without thinking of the AI and bringing real world ways to outplay the opposition into FM

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that outside of the mentality frameworks, most of what I suggest would translate into real-world language. The main issue in translation FM theory to real-world management is the complexity of mentality, which is SI's most important instruction yet in the style they present it close to irrelevant in real football. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on- and this is where the major problems arise. The game's options are based on someone's individual understanding of football, which will obviously differ from our own. This is where we need the manual to bridge that language gap- in its current form it fails miserably.

[leftback in the changing room]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

It's not bad right now. It numbs the little finger, half the ring finger and the palm below. Rest and aspirin/ibuprofen to relieve nerve pressure is the first treatment which works 80% of the time. If it gets worse then keyhole surgery is required to free the nerve from the muscle putting the pressure on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get well soon.

Your TT&F post reawakened my flagging interest in FM07 and got me thinking seriously about my tactics.

I then went and implemented a version of Asmodeus' Slider Apathy system which seems to be working wonders for my Swedish 2nd Division (South Gotaland) side. But it was the TT&F thread that kept me going

[Asmodeus]

*High-fives wwfan*

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

*High-fives wwfan* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ow! That was my frozen hand!!!!

Feeling frisky today, Asmo?

[Finknottle]

Please allow me to throw in my two pennies worth, re the manual in Asmodeus' post. Perhaps we should look at the "manual and SI's language" problem from the opposite angle.

As Asmodeus correctly says, we all have differing view points about football. I think that we are all trying to say the same thing but in varying ways. The result is usually confusion. Hence all the queries in the forum.

What if SI produced a manual that gave us the general insight into how they made the game? All instructions would be in "SI football language". This would have everyone starting off from the same standpoint. Instructions would include loose and general guides on setting up tactics etc, so that we could at least, start a game and have a working base from which to start.

I would think that at least one working example of a tactic that could be used to start off with could be included in the manual. Personally, I have found that there are so many opinions on so many different tactics and it all gets rather difficult to sort out.

I have just started another new game, this time going back to an old tactic that I used to use. it is very, very basic. One for at home and one for away. I just utilise both in the match, depending on how I am doing. Kind regards.

[Guest adji]

Hi all, what do you think about my theory?

Mentality

SW: 5

DC: 6

DR/DL: 7

WBR/WBL: 8

DMC: 9

MC: 10

MR/ML: 11

AMC: 12

AMR/AML: 13

FR/FL: 14

FC: 15

[mk42]

wow. 12 games into the epl season, and i'm 11-1-0 with a gd of about 18. the one draw was an away game where i picked away-attack against portsmouth (they were 3-1), and just couldn't score. switched to home-def 70 mins in, and started making chances, but ran out of time, 0-0. the other close call was where i picked away-attack for a game against spurs who were at 13-2. they scored twice in 12 minutes, so i downgraded to away for the rest of the half, then switched to home for the second half (nothing to lose), and came back to be drawing 2-2 when they scored again, but finished of winning 4-3. amazing game. picking the right set is obviously vital!!! otherwise these tactics seem to have a lot of merit ...

[FourThreeThree]

Its an irony that you are convinced the global mentality concept does not work wwfan because that would make someones thread completely redundant and the results most likely fake.

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

*High-fives wwfan* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ow! That was my frozen hand!!!!

Feeling frisky today, Asmo? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As always darling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oescus:

Please allow me to throw in my two pennies worth, re the manual in Asmodeus' post. Perhaps we should look at the "manual and SI's language" problem from the opposite angle.

As Asmodeus correctly says, we all have differing view points about football. I think that we are all trying to say the same thing but in varying ways. The result is usually confusion. Hence all the queries in the forum.

What if SI produced a manual that gave us the general insight into how they made the game? All instructions would be in "SI football language". This would have everyone starting off from the same standpoint. Instructions would include loose and general guides on setting up tactics etc, so that we could at least, start a game and have a working base from which to start.

I would think that at least one working example of a tactic that could be used to start off with could be included in the manual. Personally, I have found that there are so many opinions on so many different tactics and it all gets rather difficult to sort out.

I have just started another new game, this time going back to an old tactic that I used to use. it is very, very basic. One for at home and one for away. I just utilise both in the match, depending on how I am doing. Kind regards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what's required in my opinion- for example Ray Houghton's much-maligned overhaul of the defensive line for FM2007 had us all flummoxed until the reasoning and basic mechanics of it were explained. This is a classic example of the approach needed in the '08 manual, as you correctly point out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FourThreeThree:

Its an irony that you are convinced the global mentality concept does not work wwfan because that would make someones thread completely redundant and the results most likely fake.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only irony I can see in that post, aside from you missing the point entirely, is that you seemingly deem it "cool" to post "" at the end of every post.

I'm having doubts about many of my assumptions currently, and was wondering whether your stance on the relationship betwixt passing/width/tempo is still the same wwfan, seeing as our original assumptions were very similar?

[wwfan]

I have too much respect for all to get into any debate on who and what is right. I have my theories, others have theirs. As long as they help rather than hinder, what right have we to judge. And if anyone wants to discuss the definition of irony, I'm your man. I have read every book on the subject from Quintillian to Rorty, with Kierkegaard, Schlegel and Derrida thrown in for good measure (major topic of my PhD if you're asking) but I promise I'll bore the socks off you.

As for the width/tempo/passing match, I'm still convinced linking them together is as good a base rule as any. Highly technical teams should be able to play short passes at faster tempo, but I would recommend a varying scale for testing this theory out, i.e. don't try an extreme tempo with extreme short passing, rather shift settings incrementally until the team is producing the kind of moves you are after.

[Asmodeus]

I tend to steer clear of all extremities in this version as with the old ones; first notch of anything seems to be enough for me.

Width however, I'm perplexed as to how this should be linked. There are several logical theories about, but...

[Asmodeus]

With regard to the right/wrong debate, we're all right in our own way- the systems we use work for us, this is what I was alluding to with "missing the point entirely."

This forum isn't about one-upmanship or anything of the sort. The reason we all post on this forum is to learn and help each other to reach the common goal of trying to understand this now hugely complex game. If anyone thinks that the forum regulars continually contribute for their own ends or any form of self-promotion, then I think you are sadly-mistaken.

As wwfan has already polarised in his opening statements, he and myself do operate at differing ends of the tactical spectrum. However, I enjoy his threads more than any as they’re articulate, methodical and based on excellent logic. This is vital in inspiring debate and discussion, which is more often than not where revelation is derived from.

I apologise for this rant but the whole competitive thing ****es me off. We have a common goal, and a common enemy in that accursed match engine. We all come here to learn so let’s just keep doing that- please…?

Sorry for the slight digression wwfan.