My 451 falling apart. Help anyone?

[jens_dewit]

Hello there, it's been a while since I asked a question on here.

I've tried many things since my last tries (this time I followed ALL the stickies), yet I seem to have reached a new impasse.

The strange thing is that this tactic seemed great at first, I first used it in the final 4 games of the EPL as Tottenham (3 wins and one draw, made us finish 4th ahead of Liverpool and ManU).

We started the new season with a lovely 4-1 beating of newly promoted Burnly, yet things have turned sour: lost a few games, drew against liverpool and lost to Fiorentina again. Can't seem to figure out the problem. So here's the set-up and the ideas behind it:

GK(d)-FBL(A)-DC©-DC(x)-WBR(s): the idea is simple, defend while backs support the flanks. Stopper and cover to cover the lack of DM

CM(d)-CM(a)-BWM(s): one purely defending mid, one attacking mid and one who closes down opponents while supporting the attack

IF(s)-AP(A): IF to directly support striker while the AP provides creativity

TM(s): this one is the one that causes me most headaches. Sometimes he does brilliantly, other times he's rubbish. I've tried a DLF(a), DLF(s) and CF(s) but no role that really convinces me here.

My fave line-up: Llorris, Rose, Vertonghen, Dawson, Walker, Paulinho, Erikson, Dembele, Townsend/Falqué, Lamela, Batshuayi (or Kane if Michy's injured)

TI: Control, standard fluidity

short passing: keep the ball

pass into space: prevent the team from giving endless passes that lead to nothing

work ball into box: prevent random shots

Play out of defence: find the proper solution while keeping possession

Much lower tempo: read this somewhere and it gives everything a very tidy look.

I'm prepared to tinker with TI's and roles, but I would really like to give the formation another shot.

Another point I should add: I'm not a fan of giving more than 4/5 TI's nor giving PI's as I believe the formation and roles should speak for themselves.

One last point: this is about as much info as I can give, given that the Vita does not have ANY analysis possibilities.

Thanks in advance.

(I'm close to crying at this point, everything I try seems to work for 3 games and then it stops... :'( )

[jens_dewit]

Just lost 2-0 against Huddersfield. Now I'm crying.

[CamillePunk]

Short passing already lowers the tempo, so that + Much Lower Tempo will make your play very slow. Also, the Control mentality already sets your defenders to shorter passing, so play out of defense will make them pass even shorter (or possibly do nothing, not sure if it stacks). So you've got your team playing very slowly and short, meanwhile your striker up top is a target man, a role designed to win direct passes in the air and lay them off to another attacker, which you are kind of lacking, which is why a lone TM is rarely advised.

I would remove Play out of Defense as it's redundant, and consider how slow you really want to play. If teams are pressing you especially then your current setting sets you up to be completely stifled. As for your striker role, I'd give CF(S) another shot.

[sporadicsmiles]

What exactly is the problem with the games? Are you dominating but creating nothing, or being dominated? Are the opposition taking advantage of any one area of your team? With the way your defence is set up I could see a situations where you could get caught on the break with just the two CDs back, and one will step out, as he is a stopper, and leave an easy through ball into the acres of space, and only one defender left to cover. I do not know if this is a problem, but it would concern me.

I am curious as to why you play without a DMC, which adds stability and provides a pivot in this formation - along with defensive cover. As I see your formation now, you have a lone target man who would be easy to isolate from the game since he relies on balls being played up to him quickly, which you are not doing. You have an AP(A) on the wing (I think) who again can be easily isolated if so. Plus all of his play will be funnelled to his left, because that is the only place to go. Finally, you have runners from deep (IF and CM(A)), but who is creating the space for them? I do not know much about the movement of a TM since I never use them, but I would imagine he is fairly static. For deep runners to be really effective you need someone to create space for them to exploit, and this has to be the forward in your formation. A CF or DLF will create much better movement up front.

Good luck!

[jens_dewit]

Thanks for the insights. All of your points make sense.

The main reason I don't use a DMC is because I don't believe that we have a good enough DMC after Sandro left (he wanted to go and I traded him with Verratti).

Second reason is that it seemed to work suêrb on FMH.

I'm going to try some of your pointers, while removing the cover/stopper duties and replace them with push higher/off side trap.

I'll keep you guys posted (insights are still welcome)

[RTHerringbone]

Second reason is that it seemed to work suêrb on FMH.

I'd definitely advise against applying any FMH knowledge in the "full" game. They are very different beasts with entirely different Match Engines.

FMH is far more forgiving than FM14.

[jens_dewit]

I'd definitely advise against applying any FMH knowledge in the "full" game. They are very different beasts with entirely different Match Engines.

FMH is far more forgiving than FM14.

I've found that out before -the hard way.

But no matter which alternative I think of, this 4321 seems the best option for these players.

I've got defense, support and attack, without any of them being in the way of my wingers (with the attacking mid in the middle).

A DMC would be more risk free perhaps, but then again, those are formations I've had even less succes with...

[bababooey]

One thing I've noticed right away is you have a playmaker high up the pitch in a system that plays high up the pitch. This can be an issue. If I were setting up a team that wants to press high, I would want my playmaker to be positioned deeper (so in CM or DM) because he'll have more space to work with.

The other thing is that your team instructions and choice of team mentality are telling me that perhaps the style of football you want to see would be better suited for either Standard or Counter? In other words, if you're looking to play a possession game with slow(ish) passing, then I would advise against control. If you don't want to lose the high pressing/extra width of Control then you can adjust using team instructions.

So maybe the issue is lying there. Is this a good description of how you want to play? Or would you rather be a more direct team? Because if you want to be more direct, then those team instructions aren't going to help you. But if you want to play a possession game perhaps lower the team mentality, and then remove a few team instructions and keep things simple.

I like your choice of roles/duties in that formation, just maybe I would change it so a playmaker is deep rather than high up the pitch.

[Torskus77]

Batshuayi he can miss chances for England (or Belgium rather lol) Seriously I had him in my Walsall team for a few seasons, he scored a fair few, but missed like god knows how many sitters. I don't see him as a target man if I have read right that is what you are playing him as. He's quick and needs the ball feeding through for him, then he will score goals (eventually) I sold him for a healthy profit in the end.

[jens_dewit]

I gave this another go at Hull (currently 5th in the championship, november 2018 mind!) with the advice given.

We have some great players and are predicted a 3rd place finish (atm 4 points behind number one after having tried some other tactics).

4 games, 4 wins, 4 goals against, 11 for.

Line-up: GK, WB(s), WB(s), CD(d), CD(d), CM(d), CM(a), DLP(s), IF(a), IF(a), DLF(s)

Fluid, counter, TI's: pass into space, shorter passing, work ball into box, play faster, be more expressive

Changed the TI's, in accordance with my players being very creative, highly skilled passers

PI's: WB's: mark tighter, CM(d) and DLP(s): close down more, CM(a): get further forward, DLF(s): roam and move into channels

Striker is finally scoring (loads!) while my IF's add more attacking options and offer assists, along with the CM(a) keeping the defence busy and feeding assists to the IF's.

I'm happy to say that we are finally able to be solid in defence while also being deadly in attack (though we miss some chances as well, average of 20 shots, 12 on target, but that's football for you).

As to some asking me why I don't use a DMC: the idea was initially to play a 4231 but my AMC kept being isolated, the CM(a) solves this while also adding more options in the MC strata.

Everything is working perfectly at the moment, so thanks guys

I'll keep you posted, comments are still welcome!

[jens_dewit]

Overall I'm very content wtih the way my players handle each each game, though there seem to be some hiccups still.

My main concern is when playing against a 442 and they just seem to rip my defence apart with through balls.

One time it is my left back missing the interception, the other time it's the right back.

Should I perhaps press higher? But that would then require either the offside trap (my defenders aren't particularly fast so that might pose a problem) or press more. Yet here is my next struggle: tight marking seems to make my defenders lose there opponents constantly (as though they weren't marking tight at all...) while closing down makes me lose defensive shape (which is already fickle since I switched to fluid/very fluid).

Any ideas guys?

One side question: what is the difference between tight marking and closing down the opposition? I can't seem to get my head around this one...

[Jensefaen]

Tight marking never seems to work for me neither. It seems as one of the more "extreme" instructions and one I personally would try to avoid. The offside trap could work, but I guess it will work a lot better with

a tightly connected defence. If you change your CB's or WB's a lot I would try to avoid that as well.

Remember that very fluid also increases creativity freedom of your players (I think so at least) and therefore will make your instructions slightly less important/effective. If you want him to follow your orders you

can't allow him complete freedom at the same time.

The difference between tight marking and closing down: Tight marking is prioritizing marking your players designated opposite player tightly (a CB tightly marking a forward for instance) while closing down

means how aggressively your players will try to press the opposition. If you instruct a opposite player to be closed down at all times the IDEA behind it is that everytime he gets the ball your players will try to

restrict his space and press him.

For me this is also a pretty extreme instruction, as it can easily ruin the shape of your team.

Another route could be to set a lower defensive line. As you ask your players to play possession fotball this does not necessarily mean that you will sit deep and hoofing the ball around, even though it will make

your route to the opposite goal longer. It is a bit of trade-off I would guess. Cleon could probably say A LOT about this as his "the defensive arts" (or something along those lines) splendidly deal with this exact

trade-off (if there actually is a trade-off)

[aderow]

I'm assuming you are talking about the OIs?

Tight marking is asking you players to stay close to an opposition player essentially to make it harder for that player to receive the ball (and if he does receive the ball he'll have less space as your place will be, ideally, on top of him). Closing down the opponent is asking your players to, well, close down the opponent quickly in an attempt to give him less time on the ball and potentially force him into a mistake.

[jens_dewit]

I'd like to thank you guys once again for the advice.

I'mcurrently trying to replicate the results with Celtic (I wanted something easy after all the hard work) and while we are winning, the football we bring is seeming less of a teameffort than it did at Hull. We seem to win games only if one of my Inf has a good shot.

It's strange how different teams can take a system so differently...

[jens_dewit]

This is ridiculous.

I can believe I'm losing in the champions league, but how on earth is it possible to lose three consecutive domestic games.

That's it. I rage quit.

I've tried over and over and over and over again, but every time...

I give up.

Schluss.

Gedaan.