[Liverpool] Need help with a fast passing (counter) tactic

[CRN711]

I'm managing Liverpool, currently in october and first in EPL. But my team don't play the way I want.

There is how I set up my tactic

Like the title says, I want my team to play one touch passing game and very high pressing. Actually my team don't play that way, or very rarely. Most of goals I scored where from cross, defenders mistakes or run of Suarez and Correa. A good point is my defense who seems to be alright for the moment. I don't want to have 70% possesion but I don't want to be overdominated like I was in the last game against Manchester Utd where I had only 22% possession.. We draw 0-0 but we had a lot of luck.

I really need any advice.

[llama3]

• This is shouts overkill - too many, and very conflicting instructions:
  
• Run at Defence and Pass into Space do opposite things - pick only 1, and when the situation supports either - if there is space in behind pass into space - if the space is in front of you and their compact defence - run at defence can unseat their defenders.
  
• More Direct passing does not suit a 1-touch passing game - a short passing game is more appropriate as you have 4 central midfielders - instead you are bypassing them, lumping it to 2 strikers who are not built for an aerial game. Keep the ball more - choose Shorter Passing. If you want to transition quickly and move the ball from back to from quickly, then get rid of the play out of defence instruction as it is completely contradictory, lose a midfielder and play them wide, as countering quickly is easier down the flanks.
  
• Suarez & Sturridge's roles look unusual. Suarez is very all-action, and likes to get involved - he doesn't wait for the ball to arrive to him. A Trequartista is a player like Mesut Ozil - who appears to drift in and out of action with the ebb and flow of a game, but then suddenly pulls off a great pass - Suarez constantly wants it, and tries to make things happen, he goes searching for it too. Sturridge is a quick player with good finishing - he will be more useful trying to get in behind. What you want to do with roles and duties is up to you though - I will advise, but I won't tell you what specific pairing - there are many options.
  
• Same advice I give everyone, but people overuse hassle opponents - I can appreciate you want to play a pressing game, but just be mindful when to ease off. Teams (even the top Barcelona, Dortmund & Bayern sides of the last few years) do not hassle constantly - they know when to sit back and ease off in a game and just control it.
  
• Countering and Pressing are complete opposites - you either sit deep, in shape, and counter quickly, or, you press high and hassle. You cannot have both.
  
• A Sweeper Keeper sits behind a high line often, if you switch to a deeper system, then consider his role.
  
• Gerrard is a waste at half back - he is not a man who slots in like an extra defender - he is still a great passer and extremely creative, but he has slowed down, which is why he sits deeper - he should be a more creative role instead (Regista (which would force other changes of role and duty in your midfield) or DLP are the main alternative options).

To me, you already have a good defence, and a system designed around your diamond midfield - I would continue your shape, and try and keep the ball more - make a few role changes to maximize Gerrard, Suarez & Sturridge - you are good enough to keep the ball. You can always have a plan B system of sitting deeper and countering more conventionally. Hope this helps.

[alinp]

• This is shouts overkill - too many, and very conflicting instructions:
  
• Run at Defence and Pass into Space do opposite things - pick only 1, and when the situation supports either - if there is space in behind pass into space - if the space is in front of you and their compact defence - run at defence can unseat their defenders.
  
• More Direct passing does not suit a 1-touch passing game - a short passing game is more appropriate as you have 4 central midfielders - instead you are bypassing them, lumping it to 2 strikers who are not built for an aerial game. Keep the ball more - choose Shorter Passing. If you want to transition quickly and move the ball from back to from quickly, then get rid of the play out of defence instruction as it is completely contradictory, lose a midfielder and play them wide, as countering quickly is easier down the flanks.
  
• Suarez & Sturridge's roles look unusual. Suarez is very all-action, and likes to get involved - he doesn't wait for the ball to arrive to him. A Trequartista is a player like Mesut Ozil - who appears to drift in and out of action with the ebb and flow of a game, but then suddenly pulls off a great pass - Suarez constantly wants it, and tries to make things happen, he goes searching for it too. Sturridge is a quick player with good finishing - he will be more useful trying to get in behind. What you want to do with roles and duties is up to you though - I will advise, but I won't tell you what specific pairing - there are many options.
  
• Same advice I give everyone, but people overuse hassle opponents - I can appreciate you want to play a pressing game, but just be mindful when to ease off. Teams (even the top Barcelona, Dortmund & Bayern sides of the last few years) do not hassle constantly - they know when to sit back and ease off in a game and just control it.
  
• Countering and Pressing are complete opposites - you either sit deep, in shape, and counter quickly, or, you press high and hassle. You cannot have both.
  
• A Sweeper Keeper sits behind a high line often, if you switch to a deeper system, then consider his role.
  
• Gerrard is a waste at half back - he is not a man who slots in like an extra defender - he is still a great passer and extremely creative, but he has slowed down, which is why he sits deeper - he should be a more creative role instead (Regista (which would force other changes of role and duty in your midfield) or DLP are the main alternative options).

To me, you already have a good defence, and a system designed around your diamond midfield - I would continue your shape, and try and keep the ball more - make a few role changes to maximize Gerrard, Suarez & Sturridge - you are good enough to keep the ball. You can always have a plan B system of sitting deeper and countering more conventionally. Hope this helps.

Sorry llama, you have some great posts on the forum, but whilst there's a lot to commend your comments here, there are some that are just your opinion and not shared by all.

To the OP - there are a number of good threads on here that deal will this topic which you could read. I would suggest you have a look at those that cover the areas you're interested in and see what takes your fancy. Above all, don't be afraid to experiment, but try and ensure the path you follow is logical (at least to you) and that any instructions you add are added for a reason, not just fashion or someone else's suggestion that you go along with but don't understand.

[CRN711]

Thank you very much. Following your post, I made some changes:

Counter to Attacking mentality

Direct passing to Shorter

Suarez from T to CF(S) and Sturridge to CF(A)

Gerrard from half back to Regista. And so I replace Allen by Lucas Leiva in BWM(D)

I know it will take times for the team to appropriate all the changes but they play a little better. Suarez play very well in that role (in the only game I play for the moment) coming deep to start an action and scoring it. But Sturridge is nowhere.. He seems to be too far from the rest of the team sometimes.

I only played against Swansea, we won 2-0.

The problem is that there is a quite big hole between the CB and Gerrard. It may be because Swansea played deep, next game will tell it.

In order to fill this hole, I tought to put a CM in DM position but that would break the diamond. I also tried to switch Lucas to CM (D) at half time but he doesn't seem to get deeper.

An other problem is that both DL and DR get very far from where they should be when pressing and that makes other big holes on the flanks

[Luizinho]

• Countering and Pressing are complete opposites - you either sit deep, in shape, and counter quickly, or, you press high and hassle. You cannot have both.

I'm pretty sure you can, I believe this is what Borussia Dortmund do isn't it? I may be mistaken but I thought they 'gegenpressed' and sometimes caught teams high up the pitch? A different form of the stereotypical counter-attacking football, but is counter-attacking non the less?

[mikcheck]

I think Dortmund press heavily the opp defence with the front players and team drop deeper if can't win the ball in that phase, but i'm not 100% sure.

[Luizinho]

I think Dortmund press heavily the opp defence with the front players and team drop deeper if can't win the ball in that phase, but i'm not 100% sure.

Yes quite possibly, I don't know too much about Klopp's system!

[Smarf]

I agree with nearly everything llama has said, there is no point telling ur team to play high and hassle while ur playing counter, they contradict each other. However i disagree when he says u cannot play pass into space and run at defence. I play counter attacking with Stuttgart and i have both of those shouts and it works very well i find. But for playing counter i would remove hassle and i would sit deeper.

[llama3]

Sorry llama, you have some great posts on the forum, but whilst there's a lot to commend your comments here, there are some that are just your opinion and not shared by all.

Care to elaborate?

[alinp]

Care to elaborate?

You've already been challenged on two of your statements by other posters.

The point is that you have stated in a factual way things that are your opinion. We all have opinions and we don't all agree - which helps drive debate.... which is good and should be encouraged.

[Smarf]

I haven't challenged him, i merely said that i find you can play with run at defence AND pass into space and it seems to work quite well for me. The other poster however did challenge him and left no arguement whatsoever

[Luizinho]

I haven't challenged him, i merely said that i find you can play with run at defence AND pass into space and it seems to work quite well for me. The other poster however did challenge him and left no arguement whatsoever

Challenge is definitely the wrong word! I was actually looking for clarification...

[Smarf]

I wasn't referring to you dude

[lam]

It's an interesting thread as I watched Liverpool today and am keen to give them a try.

I've opted for something a little different.

I'm playing a WIDE 442 Diamond but with the two wide players tucking in more, a narrower team setting and the two FB/WBs being told to hug the line to give me the width. This setup worked very well for me historically and I think the Liverpool squad lends it's self well to it.

My basic setup looks like this

Things I'm going to look out for are:

Switching S&S around. I agree that Suarez is likely to drop deeper but today we saw Sterling do that rather than Suarez. So, I'll switch them as part of the tactic and then maybe get them to switch with eachother in the game.

Look for clashes between DLF(S) and AP(A)

See if I'm being left exposed at the back with two WB's.

Look for space usage. With the AF(A) taking up channel space there might be a clash with the WM(A) or WB(A) (more likely). Where as there may be space abundant on the right side.

I was impressed with the ability to both Suarez and Sterling (less so) to use their wide space, though this was limted mostly to the channels rather than true wing play.

I think my tactic might be a little to attack minded with a control style but with hassle and Offside. So I will keep an eye on these too.

May have a problem with my wide players as they both have "simple passing" PPM which may not lend itself to this position.

LAM

*EDIT*

Alinp,

I have re-read your comments about Llama and can't really see how they stack with his post. He doesn't state that the OP must follow his instructions nor has he said it's the only option, infact he has ended with 'hope that helps....'. All I can see that you have done is state the obvious in a fairly abrupt fashion.

[llama3]

If the OP asks for advice - I will give my advice - some of it is my opinion (the recommendations), some of it is fact - I do not give useless information - I am a T&T Moderator - that's because I have been posting helpful and accurate T&T stuff for years. I don't mind being proven wrong, really never had a problem with it, don't need to massage my ego - but some proof or reasons for your remarks would go down well in future - now, onto CRN711...

Hope you are still doing ok - how are you finding it so far? If you still want the HB role Lucas might work there.

[CRN711]

llama only gives me advice, don't need to be harsh on him.

When I first replied Suarez was doing well and Sturridge no. Now it's the opposite. Suarez doesn't score, even the easy one, doesn't get assists.. He seems to deep, for the next game I will try CF( A) instead of CF(S) and we'll see.

The team plays very well, and the way I want. We're on top of the league with 30 points, +20 goal difference for 13 games played.

In DM I put Gerrard as DLP instead of Regista and he's doing well.

Forget to say that Sturridge is on CF(S). Any idea on how I can get the Suarez Sturridge partnership better?

[alinp]

Obviously mods are Gods, so I'll dip out - thanks

[llama3]

Obviously mods are Gods, so I'll dip out - thanks

You gave your opinion - nobody agreed.

[alinp]

You gave your opinion - nobody agreed.

Excuse me... but all I actually did was point out that some of the advice you gave could come across as you stating it was fact, not opinion. What's more I also commended you on the amount of good points you raised and the many good pieces of advice you have put on the forum as a whole. What I went on to say to the OP was to the effect that he should read through some threads on here and take from it what he thinks works for him (for example, there is a post about Counter-Pressing in the recent threads that links to a very good article on the subject (IMO) which could help him achieve his aim).

Yet I get slated for daring to say that a mod may not be right - OMG!!!

[llama3]

Excuse me... but all I actually did was point out that some of the advice you gave could come across as you stating it was fact, not opinion. What's more I also commended you on the amount of good points you raised and the many good pieces of advice you have put on the forum as a whole. What I went on to say to the OP was to the effect that he should read through some threads on here and take from it what he thinks works for him (for example, there is a post about Counter-Pressing in the recent threads that links to a very good article on the subject (IMO) which could help him achieve his aim).

Yet I get slated for daring to say that a mod may not be right - OMG!!!

Cut the attitude - its CRN711's thread - I'm really not going to have an argument here. I haven't said that "I am a Mod so I am always right" - but I have asked for some reasons behind what you said - you haven't given any, nobody else agreed with you, but nobody has slated you - I don't mind if they do (as pointed out above). So if you have concerns over my moderating - there is a report button below my name you can send a report and it will be verified independently. Otherwise let's have this thread on topic.