The seven and a half year itch

[RTHerringbone]

After seven and a half years at Barcelona, I have set myself a challenge - try to apply some of the logic from other Tactic threads to create a new tactic from scratch, with a formation I have never used before, the flat 4-3-3. Originally I planned to try a 3-4-3 too, but I'll do one at a time.

My initial Team Instructions are:

Rigid Style due to a number of specialist roles

Closing Down is set to Press More

Marking is Zonal

Crosses are drilled

I always start with a Standard Strategy, as I want enough room up the pitch for players to run into. The more Attacking the Strategy, the less space there is up front. I have pacey players in roles to make use of that pace. In harder games, I will switch to Counter to draw the opposition onto me with a deeper line, and then exploit the increased space up the pitch even more aggressively.

I'll field a BPD as I like technical players throughout my team; I train all my DCs as BPDs. With a narrow three in midfield, I need at least one fullback to offer width up the pitch. Hence, the left fullback is on an attacking duty. I foresee interplay and complementing movement between my left fullback and DLF in this tactic.

Midfield offers an opportunity to pair my favourite combination of DLP (D) (to mitigate the lack of a DM) and DLP (S) to offer further quality and varied service to the front men. A CM on Attack completes the midfield trio – this guy offsets a comparative lack of movement from my right fullback, and with sufficient intelligence shouldn’t get tangled with the Treq in front of him.

I want my Poacher to always be on the mind of the opposition defence; he will sit on the shoulder, and benefit from through balls from the DLPs. He will push the opposition CBs back, and sort of act as an Attacking Defensive Forward in that respect.

I want my Treq to offer a variety of movement. He’ll pull defenders forward, the opposite of the Poacher, so will stretch the opposition defence to be in a real Catch-22 situation at all times. A DLF on Support to the left will also drop deep, offering another type of service to the Poacher, whilst remaining a threat of his own.

My questions relate to potential crowded play around the Treq and CM (A). Do you think this will be an issue or not? I have a very intelligent pair of newgens (Lopez and Arena) who are highly intelligent and perfect CMs, I’m optimistic that their qualities will see them blend well with the Treq. Will two DLP's be too static and low on mentality?

[RTHerringbone]

So, after a whopping post above, I created the tactics and have started to test the 4-3-3 tonight.

Things on paper don't always work, and this didn't!

In spite of what I considered to be a reasonable mix of Duties, my movement between the lines was pretty mediocre, and the midfield is very separate to my forward line.

First attempt to remedy things is to set both fullbacks to Attack. It isn't something I'd instinctively do, but my instincts have been off so far, so I may as well ignore them.

What I was seeing in games was the left fullback (already on Attacking) was contributing more, creating movement, and remaining a defensive presence.

In midfield, my issue appeared to stem from having two DLPs, whose mentality is naturally quite low. I'm experimenting with the MCL in an AP role on Support as his slightly higher mentality couples nicely with slightly higher closing down. Importantly, he will run from deep more often than a DLP, and hopefully connect with the forward line.

I don't want to change too much at once, so will refrain from changing any forward roles. What I am seeing there is the Poacher being isolated, but it may be a flaw with my assignment of a DLF and Treq to "support" him.

[RTHerringbone]

A quick update on the above is that small, incremental changes can sometimes bear fruit.

Simple changes to one players duty, and one players role, have resulted in a more coherent tactic.

I can only assume that it is the changes that have made the difference, as we remain at just 29% familiarity with the formation.

To take all the "noise" of tactics away from this process, I have taken shouts out of the mix - the way we play is entirely due to players, roles, duties and PPMs.

What does trouble me is that the change I made from DLP (S) to AP (S) suddenly seems to have made the front three more organic. Their interplay has kicked in, but this isn't represented by the formation familiarity bar. I really don't know how or why they have clicked. They were playing in a "bunched" way, but seem to have found their own pockets of space.

Either way, what I am seeing now is what I have always craved; more goals from midfield, plus goals from the designated focal point, the Poacher.

What is also more apparent as I pay more attention to the game is how much I like this ME. There are clearly more direct passes now, and I'm seeing great conversion of lofted through balls from my AP and CMs.

[RTHerringbone]

A further update is that I have buckled and tweaked the front three.

Previously, it was set up so two guys generally dropped deep to feed a Poacher.

What this didn't do well enough was put the opposition defence in the back foot, so I've changed the Treq to a CF on Attack for the meantime.

It was a straight choice between an AF and a CF, but I settled on CF as he plays more through balls, so can hopefully offer even more supply to the Poacher.

Critically, a CF also has a significantly higher mentality than a Treq, so will push the defence back as I hope.

This is a more predictable role, and both he and the Poacher still have a DLF supplying them, as well as plenty of ammo from midfield.

Up until this change, it was the DLF rather than the Treq or Poacher who was most prolific, it will be interesting to see if this changes.

In view of the various tweaks, it would be sensible to show my current settings:

[RTHerringbone]

And yet more changes - I have taken off "Press More" from my Closing Down Team Instruction, that encourages players to stray from their position so it becomes harder for me to identify peculiar movement.

Again, it has been beneficial as it strips the essence of the tactic down to its bare bones; now I can be more confident that spaces left are not as a consequence of over exuberance in this area.

Why did I have "Press More" set originally? Because I interpreted that as the Barcelona model. The important thing to remember is that not only do I not actually understand what the Barcelona model is, I also do not understand how FM interprets such a model.

The more I think about it and experiment with it, the more important it is to clear your tactic of any extraneous variables until you actually understand what they do.

[BiggusD]

a tip: 4-1-2-1-2 works more or less the same way as a flat 433 except it isn't flat. Movement between the lines for you right there! I tested a quite standard very fluid setup in a few different saves yesterday and it looked good.

If you want to play like rl Barcelona, you will have to experiment with ticked sliders because it is essentially Counter-Attack except with a high defensive line, wide width and max closing down. Also, they do not play an attacking formation. It is rather a 4-6-0/3-6-1/3-7-0 crowding a midfield that pushes up.

Remember that the formation in the tactics screen is the defensive formation. Mentality affects passing direction, passing style affects passing range (radius) and Run from Deep is essentially Run Timing (from slow to quick).

A rigid style suits specialists, but only if those specialists are set up in such a way that what you have instructed them to do is fantastic and always works. If it is not, you are telling them to adhere to something that doesn't make a difference (at best) or fails horribly (at worst). A very fluid style suits general instructions, and this allows excellent players to do what is best in any given circumstance. That is what Barcelona does.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And here's a video of a goal scored with the BSP team Stockport with the above tactic:

[RTHerringbone]

Cheers. Whilst I agree with some of your points, there are issues there that I can't overcome.

I am setting myself the challenge of building a flat 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 as something of a personal tactical exam. I'm just learning how to play the game properly (no downloaded or copied tactics). So whilst I'm seeking advice and input, it needs to be mindful of these formations.

Finally, I'm not going to try to replicate Barca, because whilst they are a magnificent team, their style of play actually bores me a bit. My intention is to create an aggressive and efficient style, less tiki-taki, more crash-bang, but with finesse. I'm pleased with the changes made night and may start looking at my team instructions next. Won't be able to play again until later tonight or tomorrow

[Rashidi]

@RT, i get the itch almost every season, its fun to do that and probably apart from watching developing youth, it really is the only way I can immerse myself..I suggest you think up a challenge for yourself. I have a personal challenge to win each season with a different formation. I am allowed to make switch to a different tactic no more than 6 times a season. At all other times I need to maintain the same tactic. Its doable, challenging and sometimes crazy. I have finished a season with 4231(narrow), 4231(normal), 460, 4411, 41221, 442, 451, 3412.

Its a lotta fun cos all i want to do is see different styles of football in my game.

[RTHerringbone]

@rashidi1 That's sort of my plan, I'm just not good enough at the moment to start from scratch and build something effective straight off the bat.

What I'm keen to do is actually learn by making changes and observing their impact. So far, so good, but I probably need to try this exercise with a lesser team because our quality is so high that the players are good enough to perform in spite of my instructions!

Off to the Emirates now, back online later.

[RTHerringbone]

A couple of questions I would like to know the answer to:

Probably stupid, but on Team Instructions there is a Tick box to select your Target Man, and a drop down to choose the type of service you give him.

Is this exclusively for the Target Man role, or does it designate a focus on one individual?

I have a central Poacher - can I select the target of play to be him?

Similarly, you can select a Playmaker - do you need a Playmaker role (AP or DLP) for the tick box to actually do anything?

[RTHerringbone]

Hmm, one game is too small a sample to get excited about, but since setting my Poacher as the Target Man with Run Onto Ball supply, he scores two goals from beautiful through balls from my DLP and CM, both of whom TTB Often.

[BiggusD]

The TM and AP/DLP roles are just names for a certain slider preset. Selecting as Target Man or Playmaker makes the team focus passing/play around those selected. It may work really well, unless the opponent manages to deal with them. Then it backfires.

Sorry didn't understand that you wanted specifically a flat 433 to work. Yes it very likely must be a direct, attacking tactic. If you are countered upon, you might -have- to drop the central midfielder into an anchor position, though. I played such a tactic against a 3-man defense and that was an awful experience. Unlike with the 41212 my strikers were strangled -and- I lost the midfield possession battle. Maybe I didn't make the tactic extreme enough. If you continue to experiment I am sure you will figure it out in the end. As for me I won't experiment with the 433 I made any further, so I am afraid I can't help you very specifically with yours. I just started a long-term save with a friend in League One, so the Stockport game is now on ice.

Good luck!

[Hazza22299]

The Emirates was disappointing, I was there too. The mascot was my friend's little brother!

Anyway, this thread seems very interesting and I'll certainly be following it closely. Very impressive!

[RTHerringbone]

The TM and AP/DLP roles are just names for a certain slider preset. Selecting as Target Man or Playmaker makes the team focus passing/play around those selected.

That is enormously useful, thanks. I played about six games with the Poacher as TM Run Onto Ball and suddenly he's scoring 50+% of my goals, rather than 20%, and the team overall is scoring more. Have also made some tweaks elsewhere, which I'll post tonight with the reasons.

[RTHerringbone]

The updated settings are as below.

The one thing you can't see is that the keeper is also set to distribute to the BPD.

From the last image of the same tactic, the following things have changed:

1. Style has changed to Balanced from Rigid. I was nervous that the movement from front to back was a little clunky, so have upped the ante by making this change. I feel that it will also complement the role changes which will be mentioned below.

2. Full backs are now wing backs. An obvious point is that I have no wingers, so wing backs are ideal to compensate for that lack of width. What I am particularly keen to achieve here is my aim of varied supply to the front men, and movement between the lines. Whilst the General and Defensive settings match those of a full back, the critical factors for me here were that a wing back will run with the ball more often, creating the movement I crave, plus he will TTB often, creating the supply variation.

That apart, the tactic remains the same as I'm still keen to understand the impact of these changes. Just set to embark on season 2020/2021 after closing the season with my third highest point total ever (106), so in spite of my tinkering, things are holding together.

Have also signed a couple of genuine newgen wing backs, which is very handy as I'm currently playing "other" types of defenders out wide, so some round pegs in round holes can only make things more coherent.

EDIT - the other really, really important thing to note is the inclusion of the Target Man settings for my Poacher on Team Instructions. Played the game for 20 years and have never clocked or used this setting - it works!

[Luke4]

I was inspired to try the 3-4-3 with my Twenty side after reading this thread, and I had a good 3-1 game with Sparta. The only goal I gave up was when my defender gave the ball away in front of my goal, so it was a pretty dominating win. My setup was like yours, but I played balanced counter, with the dline pushed up. The only problem so far is that the few times the ball gets behind the DWingers, as they have a huge amount of space and verse better opposition I can see them really punishing me with all that space. Maybe putting the outside DC's as stoppers might make closing them down a bigger priority, but that is still a lot of space to close down. I'm trying to transition my Twenty team to a more attractive, higher scoring style as I won everything possible including CL the second year playing a flat rigid 5-4-1 and it was getting boring winning 1-0 or 2-0.

[RTHerringbone]

As you can tell, I haven't looked at my 3-4-3 in detail yet, because I've just played 4-3-3 so far.

Your idea about Stoppers sounds sensible, and against very good opposition you could set OIs on their wide men too.

[Madminister]

The TM thing is very interesting. Particularly the results you're getting RT. In my Stuttgart save my Advanced Forward/Poacher isn't always as involved in the game as I'd like. Maybe selecting him as TM in team settings would bring him into play a bit more. Defo worth testing.

I've always wanted to try the 4-3-3 so I'll follow this with great interest. Stuttgart is currently lining up in either a 4-2-2-2 or a 4-1-3-2. I suppose I could adapt.

Is it me or does a lot of the buildup play happen on the left side? I'm asking because you have the BPD, AP and DLF on the left side with the DLP in the center. So I would imagine a lot of the play happen on the left side with those players looking for moves from the WBR, CM (A), CLF(A) and the Poacher.

[Rashidi]

I am getting a new itch...i need to make 3 backline tactics next ...ouch...more club reorganisation coming up

[RTHerringbone]

Is it me or does a lot of the buildup play happen on the left side? I'm asking because you have the BPD, AP and DLF on the left side with the DLP in the center. So I would imagine a lot of the play happen on the left side with those players looking for moves from the WBR, CM (A), CLF(A) and the Poacher.

It does to an extent, and for exactly the reasons you highlight.

Now that I'm at work and looking at screenshots rather than the game in action, I have seen a potential issue - do I have a huge gap between my DLP and Poacher?

I've got some screenshots of heatmaps to post in a moment which I intended to show the impact of the changes I've made, but hopefully they can answer my DLP / Poacher question too.

[RTHerringbone]

I am getting a new itch...i need to make 3 backline tactics next ...ouch...more club reorganisation coming up

Sorry mate, you already had the itch and like you said before, it's an itch that needs scratching!

[RTHerringbone]

Now heat maps are not something I’m terribly good at interpreting, so take this with a heavy pinch of salt! Before heading to work this morning I took shots from two stages in the development of my 4-3-3, and I’m hoping that these will show the impact of the changes I’ve made, and validate their success (or otherwise).

First is home to Real Madrid:

Here we played with a Rigid Style, and with a Treq rather than the Complete Forward.

Second is the Champions League final against my old club Spurs, where the Style had become Standard, and the Treq is now a Complete Forward:

It’s a bit hard to pick out individual roles due to the subs I used, but the thing that interests me most is those average positions.

It is immediately clear that the defence played deeper against Spurs, almost as much so as to imply that I had changed from Standard to Counter, but I hadn’t.

Obviously it is hard to compare one heat map to another as you’re effectively comparing one game to another, not one set of tactical instructions to another.

What is clear is that changing a Treq to a CF has immediately given more presence alongside the Poacher.

What is also clear I that there is a damn big hole between my DLP and Poacher, which is effectively in the space that will be occupied by opposition DM or CM strata players.

There are signs that my CM covers this gap to an extent, but I am wondering if I’ll need to tinker more.

I’m not going to change my DLP role or duty, so my choices are either to lose or move my Poacher.

With a flat front three, I at least have options, and with the midfield trio functioning as I want (offering defensive cover and variety of service), it is more likely that my tweaks will be up front.

Has anyone else ever actually tried to set up a front three of this type with any success?

I’m confident that the relationship between the AP and DLF is working, one option is to shift the Poacher to the right, and try a more withdrawn role in the middle.

I’ve pretty much ruled out a Treq because I can’t carry any passengers with just a three man midfield.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

[Madminister]

First thing I get from those screenshots is, once again, that just because the formation looks flat on paper doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have depth. Sounds like your Poacher is banging them in for fun (from earlier posts), so I'm not sure I would change that personally. It still looks to me you have an asynchronous tactic, not when it comes to formation, but when it comes to responsibilites. The left side is responsible for buildup whereas the right side is responsible for finding space. I read somewhere that's what Spain and Germany did in 2010, and that seemed to work ok for them

Shifting the Poacher to the right might work as you mention, but it could also isolate him even more couldn't it?

[RTHerringbone]

Shifting the Poacher to the right might work as you mention, but it could also isolate him even more couldn't it?

That's the challenge. He'd still have a CM on Attack behind him, and as the heatmap from the Spurs game shows, he's the most advanced midfielder so is relatively close and has the TTB Often setting.

If I wasn't so stubborn, I'd move the CF back to an AMC position and fill the gap back to the DLP, but that would be giving up too easily.

What I want to do is play somebody up front with a mentality lower than a CF, but one who will break forward regularly. I can achieve the latter bit with PPMs, but I'll look tonight to find a role which is predisposed to making this sort of run.

What I haven't made clear yet is that I am uneasy about changing individual sliders as I don't really know what I'm doing. I'll always try to find out of the box solutions to issues, as I'm not convinced that sliders will remain in the series in a few years time.

EDIT - Incidentally, I had to look up "asynchronous"! I have tried to use elements of the excellent Twelve Step Guide, which resulted in the mix of Duties you see before you. When I think about it, I don't see how this can be avoided, as the premise is all about creating movement, but also not creating conflict by having players operating in the same space.

[Madminister]

I had trouble spelling it and now it occurs to me I meant assymetric

[cycholka]

Has anyone else ever actually tried to set up a front three of this type with any success?

I'm running a STCL Poacher ( given licence to roam ), jumpy STC Target Man Support and STCR Trequista. With short passing and slowish tempo I found this setup very prolific - averages about 1.5 goals a game on lower leagues. Tried versions with Poacher in the middle, but found he gets to be at the end of many crosses he never has chance to win. Also tried to play DLF instead of Trequista on the right, but that proved to be a much more hit-miss role ( much running into blind alleys or offsides against more solid defences )

I’ve pretty much ruled out a Treq because I can’t carry any passengers with just a three man midfield.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

I solved this by playing Treq on the side of less attacking fullback and slotting a ball winner behind. I ship much more goals down the other side from wingers cutting inside my attacking fullback to either score or bury a cross and am seriously considering ditching a stopper in favour of limited defender and attacking CML in favour of a box-to-box guy or another ballwinner.

[RTHerringbone]

I haven't really got anybody suited to a true Target Man role, but I won't rule anything out.

My team deliberately makes very few crosses, so a central Poacher is working well for me - I get a load of goals from through balls from the CM and DLP in particular.

I may just have invented a problem in my head by thinking about the DLP to Poacher gap, and then seeing it represented on the heatmap.

Rather than looking at static data, I need to watch them in a full game to see the scale of the issue, and whether the opposition actually takes advantage of it.

Average position is misleading in graphical form; it is where the players are on average, but doesn't mean for example that my DLF, CM or AP aren't looking to press in the area between the DLP and Poacher on the occasions when they need to.

I quite enjoy paying more attention to the Analysis tab, so may bore you all later with some other shots from that section.

[RTHerringbone]

Have just done a quick check to compare the effectiveness of my pre-patch 4-1-2-2-1 vs. the new 4-3-3.

Pre-patch I was really pleased with the amount of goals I scored, and I have fractionally increased from 2.96 goals per game to 2.98.

As expected, defensively I have deteriorated, but to a far greater extent than expected - from 0.51 per game to 0.69, which is quite a significant shift.

Clearly the averages imply that overall I'm winning a lot, but I did not expect the goals against column to increase quite so much, nor for the goals against column to only shift so marginally up.

[RTHerringbone]

Having watched a bunch of games last night, I'm now less concerned with the "gap" from DLF to Poacher.

As with any tactic where the symmetrical shape is made more flexible by roles and duties, I have found that the CM(A) regularly drifts into that space, and that the DLF occasionally drifts back there if the CM(A) isn't there.

What has become apparent is that the more intelligent opposition have opportunities to take advantage of this drifting, as, for example, if an AML is drifting down my right, the CM, DLP and AP all move in the direction, which creates a big gap on the opposite flank.

This is partially offset by the presence of a wing back, but I can see occasions where I'll get doubled up down the flank and done over, but that will probably be a general trend with this shape.

[Rashidi]

Having watched a bunch of games last night, I'm now less concerned with the "gap" from DLF to Poacher.

What has become apparent is that the more intelligent opposition have opportunities to take advantage of this drifting, as, for example, if an AML is drifting down my right, the CM, DLP and AP all move in the direction, which creates a big gap on the opposite flank.

This is partially offset by the presence of a wing back, but I can see occasions where I'll get doubled up down the flank and done over, but that will probably be a general trend with this shape.

Once you able to see movement like this in your tactic you're almost there..

[cycholka]

Heh, seems I finally cracked this puzzle for my current set of players after few in-game months of constant frustration and inconsistency.

The team in question is Torquay, currently in BSP. Due to shortage of funds and personal dislike of going over budgets over two transfer windows I assembled a very physical and hardworking squad

with very young goalkeepers that are average right now but can still grow plenty

strong, smart and technically proficient, but horribly sloooooow defence

industrious, organised but uninspiring midfield

and intelligent if otherwise average strikers

All those people were supposed to play flat and attacking 4-3-3 that proved successful in my previous club in Norway.

GK( Gk D ) - DR( Fb S ) DCR( Cover ) DCL( Stopper ) DL( Fb A ) - MCR( Bwm S ) MC( Dlp D ) MCL( Cm A - no roaming ) - STCR( Treq ) STC( TM S ) STL( Poa - roaming ). Team was to push up and press playing slower and shorter passing game.

Results were mixed, going forward it worked a treat, whole front three was involved scoring goals and assists for fun ( first choice target man ended up divisions top scorer and league player of the year ! ), but on back foot I shipped goals like if clean sheets were out of fashion ( including a game won 5-3 when my team got back from 1-3 down against a weaker opposition ). There were two most obvious problems - goals were shipped from the flanks and high closing down made my players loose any sort of coherent shape.

So the closing down and defensive line went down and...

I still shipped goals down the flanks. Invariably there would be moments in the match where the opposing fullback/winger/wide midfielder found himself alone in space out wide with absolutely no pressure to put a perfect cross. The fact that my whole formation tended to gravitate to one flank of the pitch leaving the other completely empty didn't help either. Playing less attacking made little difference, I shipped less goals from counters, but shipped more from wide men cutting inside the fullback. So I started to think how to shut the flanks down.

The most obvious solution was to have fullback man-mark their wingers and wide strikers man mark their fullbacks.

The former failed horribly, while the wingers were kept quiet, they also tended to drop deep pulling the fullbacks with them. This exposed oceans of space behind where enemy strikers run absolute and unstoppable riot helped by runners from midfield. Inserting more structure/solidity into my midfield ( MC Support - DLP Def - MC Support ) didn't help enough, since while hardworking, these guys weren't exactly all that fast and they simply couldn't keep up when trying to track back. Trying to address this by pushing D-Line up opened the "hollywood ball" nightmare of passes over and behind my defenders, offside trap was a non-starter, as mentioned my defenders have negligible speed factor and you need some acceleration to make it tick. Thus fullback-on-winger-at-all-times experiment was dead.

Having strikers mark the fullback though was an unqualified success, both for forward play and opposition threat factor.

So maybe I could kill the supply to the wings?

Opposing fullback were at this time generally well under control, that left short passes from central midfield and long passes from central defenders/goalies. This started promising, solid midfield three with in-your-face OIs tended to make strong impact on opposition. Provided it was not drawn out of shape by intelligent movement, because that immediately exposed defenders who were still prone to being outpaced, skinned and all over the place. But it did not solve problem of long ball forward to flanks. In the end I tried three things - standing off ( to keep my midfield in place and help with slow defenders being skinned ), tight marking everyone above DM strata ( which solved the problem of long ball forward ) and anchoring the DLP to middle of pitch with 1 mentality, 1 closing down ( which stopped the midfield three being pulled from flank to flank ). And suddenly boom. Everything clicked together. After an unconvincing win in Southport I got four more in a row scoring 19(!) and conceding only 2, including a very good 2-0 performance away to strong Forrest Green ( who ended way above me in previous season ).

Let's see if this lasts

[RTHerringbone]

In the end I tried three things - standing off ( to keep my midfield in place and help with slow defenders being skinned ), tight marking everyone above DM strata ( which solved the problem of long ball forward ) and anchoring the DLP to middle of pitch with 1 mentality, 1 closing down ( which stopped the midfield three being pulled from flank to flank ).

These points are particularly interesting to me, as I am loathe to tweak individual sliders because (a) I don't know enough about them and (b) I like to use shouts.

Up until now, my development of the tactic has focused solely on getting Roles and Duties which hang together and work as a functional unit. No shouts have been used at all in the development stage as I wanted to be sure that the play I saw was purely down to roles, duties, attributes and PPMs.

Now that I have a level of comfort that the tactic is fundamentally sound, I am able to start introducing shouts into the mix. I feel competent using shouts, and my first league game of a new season was at the Bernebau with my flat 4-3-3 versus a Madrid Christmas tree, with a flat 3 in the MC strata matching my MC trio, with 2 narrow AMCs in front and a striker up top.

This immediately gave me a couple of challenges - I had no DMC to begin to firefight their AMC duo, and I would have been generally overrun in midfield.

What it did present was an opportunity down the flanks, so shouts Play Narrower and Exploit the Flanks were used to create a tight, hard to break midfield unit, whilst my wider striker roles of AF and CF offered very real outlets on the wings. I also made my rare allowance for the quality of the opposition and dropped my Strategy from Standard to Counter.

In the end, it was a fairly close 2-1 away win for me, but I'm certain that if I hadn't played with the Shouts and Strategy change, that I would have been dominated in the middle and handed a good 2-0 or 3-0 tonking.

This marks a significant step for me tactically, as I have confidence that this tactic in isolation is a strong platform which is a bit of a first for me. Appropriate and timely use of shouts with appropriate Strategy changes merely refine what is essentially a good core approach.

Irritatingly, it also looks like the start of another FM illness for me, because now I have a desire to build a flat 4-4-2 to complement my 3-4-3 and 4-3-3....

[RTHerringbone]

Latest update is that the Poacher has changed to become a Trequartista, and the CF on the right is now an AF.

The reasons are simple; the Poacher and CF were too selfish with too high mentalities.

The Treq offers a lower mentality to bridge the gap back to MC, but being set as the Target Man with a Supply of Run Onto Ball really allows him to express his creativity - he is scoring and assisting, and you can't ask for much more from this sort of striker.

The AF was selected to retain a more advanced attacking focus, and to keep play stretched and the opposition defence on the back foot.

As a trio overall, it works better than the other combinations I have tried. My only remaining scope to tinker is with who to set as Target Man, and the type of Supply to give them. Thus far it is working with the settings detailed above.

The team has become more fluid in most areas, but still needs to improve its understanding of the formation and width.

Having looked at another thread floating around the forum, I have now sowed the seed of a further tweak in my mind:

I have been focusing on the lack of a DM being the responsibility of my DLP to try to bridge. What I am now tempted to do is incorporate Cover and Stopper roles in Central Defence (BPD to be Cover, as this will also move him closer to the Keeper who is set to distribute to him), CD to be Stopper. Hopefully this allows us to create additional proactive movement between the DC and MC lines.

My rose-tinted vision is that the keeper will get the ball, bowl it to the BPD whose immediate option is his slightly more advanced CD partner.

All my CDs are trained as BPDs, so all have good technique, composure and passing, so it is not too much to hope that the CD can find the DLP and the relay continues up field....

[Rashidi]

RT what you should do when looking at heat maps is also take one of key positions..ie if you have two players you need to do closing down, just take their heat maps and compare.

then you can do tackles to see how high up the pitch they tackle..look also for interceptions. Heatmaps can be really helpful and I can help you try and understand them

[RTHerringbone]

RT what you should do when looking at heat maps is also take one of key positions..ie if you have two players you need to do closing down, just take their heat maps and compare.

then you can do tackles to see how high up the pitch they tackle..look also for interceptions. Heatmaps can be really helpful and I can help you try and understand them

That would be much appreciated, I am crap with heat maps and much on the Analysis Tab to be honest.

Exactly as you point out, I tend to leave all players selected, so looking at passes as an example can be just plain nonsensical.

I'll have a few test games with Cover / Stopper in place and see how things go.

I'll post more appropriate Heat Maps later on, hopefully from a tough away game or something like that.

[RTHerringbone]

I'm ditching the idea of Cover and Stopper, as it stretches a key area too much. I'll leave my BPD on Defend, but the CD will temporarily stay on Stopper until I see a need to change.

In an attempt to get some Analysis Tab shots for you all to dissect, I realised that on the face of it, my CM (A) did little in one game to warrant the same Match Rating as his AP (S) partner. One factor was his half time withdrawal, so I'm going to play a game now with no influence from me whatsoever barring the Team Talks; no shouts, no subs, no changes to anything. This should reveal all (for one game) about the roles, duties, attributes and PPMs of all my players.

Of course, it is blinkered in real life to look purely at stats in isolation; sometimes it's what isn't seen which makes an impact, but I feel that FM is so stat-centric, that it should be able to assess relative performance solely based on the tools at our disposal.

I'll then post some shots comparing the two roles and would like some input as to whether or not the CM (A) warrants his spot in the team - cue a hat-trick of assists......

One thing I have noticed - the Analysis Tab sorely needs the ability to select more than one player to view. It would be very handy to be able to analyse one midfield vs. the other, or one defensive unit vs. one attacking unit. Has been posted in the FM Wishlist thread.

[RTHerringbone]

Here goes - Analysis overload for a fairly typical game at home to a far inferior opponent.

I lined up with my 4-3-3, Levante with a 4-4-2.

My latest settings are:

Overall heatmap comparisons are as below. Barca:

Levante:

My player ratings and various stats (which dispel the notion that the CM (A) is a luxury):

This reveals the scale of dominance in all areas. Particularly pleasing for me is that effectively 17% of my overall possession was in the final third. Pleasing also that my midfield three has completely outperformed them with their extra man in mdfield:

The critical thing for me to assess was the heat maps of my central trio - do they sufficiently cover the areas I want them to?

Smith was my DLP (D) in the game. The team heat map already clearly showed him where I wanted him, but his areas of focus were diluted among everyone else's. His role is to cover the gap between the DC and MC strata, and I don't want too much forward movement. Five interceptions, 9 out of 11 successful tackles and key headers imply that he is busy, but up to the task. The interceptions were all where I wanted them to be - pro-actively up the pitch before they became a real threat - this is a consistent pattern for all the midfield interceptions:

He is also responsible for keeping things moving in midfield, so offers a range of passing and numerous through balls. One of the highest pass completion stats (highest absolute number of pass attempts) in the team for this critical part of the tactic:

Cardoso was AP (S), so should offer more up the pitch, but remain defensively effective in view of my lack of DM. He ran 12.4km to achieve this, made key passes, completed all his tackles and made more runs than any other player in the team:

Lopez played CM (A), made key passes, five interceptions and provided an assist:

All in all, I am happy that these three covered the sort of ground I wanted, and effectively so.

One more post to show the front three next....

[RTHerringbone]

Up front I have tried numerous combinations, but the heat map in post #37 appears to demonstrate an achievement of my aim.

I wanted to try to mirror the shape of my midfield to avoid having any huge gaps for the opposition to exploit. Relative to the Spurs heat map in post #22, it is far more discernible and this gives comfort.

Anyway, how do the front three blend in terms of stats?

The Trequartista was included to give me some outright creative freedom, but with a mentality between that of the DLF (S) and AF (A). Set as Target Man with a Supply of Run Onto Ball, I want this guy to stretch defences, pick out key passes and benefit from the movement and passing of his two colleagues beside him, as well as those behind.

In view of this, I want this to be the main man for assists butI want a fair share of goals too, which can be hard to achieve with such a high amount of CF and Roaming.

He is busy:

On the left, the DLF (S) is a more conventional link to midfield, and offers more to the team as a whole, so should be expected to show more concentrated heat in areas further down the pitch than the Treq:

The AF (A) is the most advanced mentality of the trio. Whilst he roams like the Treq, he contributes defensively with above average closing down:

Quick clip (apologies for quality) below showing front to back how this team plays; aggressive defending, quick incisive pass from midfield, then a flood of movement forwards with some tidy interplay:

[video=youtube_share;XYc9QiSo500]

[RTHerringbone]

To close this, the itch is back. I made a final change to my setup, which saw me set the Team Instructions to Press More for Closing Down:

Since making this change, I have found that the increased pressing actually results not in fewer goals conceded, but actually in more goals scored. In the La Liga season to date, we're averaging 4.4 goals per game, and 0.4 conceded:

Form is really pleasing:

But I can't help feeling that this is indicative as much of this tactics' merits, as it is of the AI squad building flaws. The 7-0 win against Real was as much due to them blooding their first choice 2* CA players, as it was the culmination of stats like these:

Interceptions alone show just how one sided this was against my so-called biggest rival; Real are sitting on over £600m in the bank with a combination of past-it has-beens and unready newgens in their squad:

I don't know where the itch will take me. The data update makes Newcastle tempting and I'm keen to cut my teeth with a more challenging team than Barca, but then again, this save started at Spurs who are by no means mediocre. It would be a shame to end this save now as it's literally the furthest I've ever progressed with a single save, but I do feel that poor AI decision making, particularly with regard to squad building, makes the game progressively easier once you get past the first 5 or 6 years.

[RTHerringbone]

I couldn't drop the save......

The 20/21 Season ended with a record haul of goals for me - averaging just shy of 4 goals per game scored and just short of 0.4 goals per game conceded.

A main reason for the upsurge in effectiveness was just down to tactical familiarity. I had two backup tactics in the background "just in case", and although I never used them, they reduced my teams' familiarity with formation, which was knocking about at around 68%.

Since ditching the backup tactics, formation became 100% Fluid, as with Closing Down (which had to be adapted to after I set it to Press More).

There were no changes in personnel, and I used no Shouts at all this season, just the odd change to Counter Strategy for the occasional tough away game.

League Table closed like this:

However, I have also mastered Paint after being impressed by other posters' arrows, lines and circles, and whilst this isn't a work of art, it will demonstrate (hopefully) the thoughts behind my tactic better than my continued waffling.

My main concern early on with this tactic was being exposed down the flanks. This was offset by a combination of attacking wing backs and a solid midfield role. This shot demonstrates the roles they play when I have the ball:

The guy circled in blue is my DLP - he is effectively acting as a DM whilst my wing backs (circled yellow) provide extra width. This is in essence a 4-3-3, but these roles with the ball transfer it to a 3-4-3.

Next shot even better demonstrates these roles when on the attack. The same colour coding is applied, so note the blue DLP effectively leaving me 4 against their 3 at the back. The yellow wing backs are high and wide, absolutely stretching the defence, whilst my 3 forwards and CM (A) are in and around the box. The ultimate aim was to put the opposition on the back foot through outright aggresiveness, and I more or less outnumber the opposition in their own box.

Final shot is all about how play builds from the back. The keeper distributes to the BPD (Howell) who has a couple of safe options to pass to. The wing backs are relatively conservative, and whilst they are in touch with the opposition wingers, their first thoughts are about the open spaces behind them.

The blue DLP acts as that bridge between the DC and MC strata, whilst the differing mentalities of the AP (S) (25) and CM (A) (19) can be seen. The front three operate from a relatively similar start point at this point, but their width can be seen, and the Treq (11) will obviously drop deep to pull a defender or two up the pitch.

A key here is that the other two forwards are constantly occupying the opposition wide defenders, I very rarely get attacked down the flanks due to these guys doing such a good job in worrying the opposition. As such, and as demonstrated in the earlier shots, my wing backs really do just operate as additional midfielders, as their need to defend is lessened by this aggressive play at the top end of the pitch.

[Andswaru]

Useless comment incoming, but I read your masterpeice and have enjoyed following your trials and tribulations as you seek to rekindle your interest in your saved game. I would also like to say this simple Poacher - Run onto the ball Combination has created a BSP monster from my Salisbury City team in my game. I like yourself never realised the combination of the Target man and the way the ball is fed into him would make such a huge difference but it has. Amazing. So thanks for sharing your results and encouraging me to try out that combination also.

[RTHerringbone]

Useless comment incoming, but I read your masterpeice and have enjoyed following your trials and tribulations as you seek to rekindle your interest in your saved game. I would also like to say this simple Poacher - Run onto the ball Combination has created a BSP monster from my Salisbury City team in my game. I like yourself never realised the combination of the Target man and the way the ball is fed into him would make such a huge difference but it has. Amazing. So thanks for sharing your results and encouraging me to try out that combination also.

No comment is useless, unless it's one of mine!

I'm glad something is this thread has proven useful. The game is packed full of so many intricacies that it can be hard to be aware of everything. Certainly the Target Man setting for me was a bit of a revelation, and when you consider that it's in your face on the Team Instructions page, it's a bit stupid for me to have missed it!

Tonight's job will be to try to post evidence of the defensive side of the game. If anyone knows any FREE screen capture software that does prettier things than Paint, please let me know what it is.

Clearly my Goals For column is impressive, but it's the Goals Against column which I'm most proud of and I want to show the flexibility and effectiveness of this tactic against a variety of shapes. The fact that I use no Shouts and rarely change Strategy should give some very transparent analysis.

[drhay53]

Really great thread. I enjoyed reading it through it and seeing all of your hard work.

It's a shame the AI is so bad at building a team, although I'm hopeful it will be a little better with the most recent update. I too am in the 2020's and finding it difficult to not get bored.

[RTHerringbone]

Really great thread. I enjoyed reading it through it and seeing all of your hard work.

It's a shame the AI is so bad at building a team, although I'm hopeful it will be a little better with the most recent update. I too am in the 2020's and finding it difficult to not get bored.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.

AI squad building is a blight on the game in my opinion. Having just closed the 20/21 season, Real Madrid have only just retired Casillas, still have Ramos (35), Higuain, Benzema and Marcelo (33) and Ozil at 32. These are still first XI players, and quality of their newgen selections is debatable.

[RTHerringbone]

Here's a look at the transition from defence to attack. It's from the 1st Leg of a CL QF at Old Trafford.

United are managed extremely well by Vincenzo Montella, whose 3-5-2 system looks to be more than a match for my midfield trio, but whose back 3 looks vulnerable against my front 3.

Screen 1 - Man Utd are lining up a free kick. My back 4 and midfield 3 are lined up nicely. My AF is, as ever, pushing high up pitch trying to stretch the defence.

Screen 2 - After a breakdown in play, my team pushes up to the Standard defensive line. The Closing Down setting of Press More is evident with the attacking trident man for man against the Utd defence. United's wide men are in space and a threat - the downside of this shape.

Screen 3 - One of the wide men from the previous image, Alaba, is in a dangerous position. Note, however, that the CM (A) is Pressing hard, that the back four are in line with the major threat being their 2 on 1 situation against my number 4. The DLP (D) and AP (S) are actively Pressing.

Screen 4 - That Pressing has retrieved the ball, and a Counter is launched. The bowing of the lines can be seen with the wing backs bombing forward, the DLP (D) holding position as his midfield partners push up, and the front three start stretching play by moving into channels, with the Treq deep and on the ball.

Screen 5 - This is why I settled on a Treq. He has carried the ball from the last shot right into the Man U right back position. Our DCs outnumber their sole striker, the DLP picks up their second most advanced player. Our wing backs are advanced, the right sided one in acres of space. The Treq has attracted two defenders, leaving me 4 against 4 in the middle, with one of their defenders somewhat adrift.

Final screen - that attack was temporarily repelled, but the lines of three in midfield and attack are clear here. On the breakdown in play, the ball spills to the left wing back who has time and space to either pick a pass, drill a cross, or take a shot. He opts for the latter, beating De Gea at his near post.

[ShirazS]

I just wanted to say thanks. I had set up my main tactic on a standard strategy and used it all season until I was up against FC Bayern away (I am Dortmund). I saw that you mentioned switching to a Counter strategy for tough away games so changed to it for the first time and got a 2-1 win against a team that is much better than me. It was an awesome rearguard action, thanks again

Do you then not keep the counter strategy as part of the match prep, based on post #40?

Regards

Shiraz

[RTHerringbone]

I just wanted to say thanks. I had set up my main tactic on a standard strategy and used it all season until I was up against FC Bayern away (I am Dortmund). I saw that you mentioned switching to a Counter strategy for tough away games so changed to it for the first time and got a 2-1 win against a team that is much better than me. It was an awesome rearguard action, thanks again

Do you then not keep the counter strategy as part of the match prep, based on post #40?

Regards

Shiraz

I now have no back up tactics, and its benefits are that after just two preseason games we are ~85% for all areas already.

When I did have back ups, they were completely different shapes, but with all the same Team Instructions.

In an ideal world, you'd by Fluid in all areas affected by Strategy changes, but that probably isn't too realistic. The important thing is that above all, Counter makes you Deep, Narrow and compact, that is the important thing and even if your team isn't 100% Fluid with that, I believe you are more likely to achieve a result in certain scenarios with 80% Fluidity with the line, width and tempo of Counter, than if you were 100% for the same elements of Standard.

[RTHerringbone]

Latest update is that I have started tinkering again.

In view of the fact that all my DCs have attributes trained with the BPD Role in mind, I've also set the DC on the right to be a BPD. The reason? The DC Stopper is not using his full range of attributes in a DC Role. A lot of my play in the lower half of the pitch focuses on the left as the keeper distributes to the BPD, and his positioning more often than not results in passes to the DLP or AP.

So, by having a BPD on the right (still as a Stopper to create movement from the DC to MC strata), I hope to gain more from him, and also to get more involvement from the WB on the right, and the CM (A) in front of him.

A few posts ago, I questioned the involvement of the CM (A), and I reckon that this simple change could increase the service he receives and improve his overall contribution. In a perfect world, this will ripple up the pitch to the AF.

What could happen though is that I end up dithering about with the ball in my own half playing tippy tappy football, inviting unnecessary pressure.

Something I'm also contemplating is the use of Offside (I've never used it in FM or CM) and a Sweeper Keeper.

My questions are:

1. Does Standard Strategy operate with a high enough line that enables effective use of Offside?

2. In my head, the use of a Stopper and two Attacking Wing Backs makes the likelihood of an Offside Trap working even higher. Surely it just remains the responsibility of the BPD (D) to step up, as the other three are likely to be ahead of him anyway?

3. Sweeper Keeper seems like a sensible role to combine with Offside, any possible issues there?

4. Are two BPDs a bad idea? Will I just play 200 10 yard passes between my centre backs?

[Andswaru]

Just wondered why your using Counter Attack as an tatical choice? Ive never really seen the disadvantage to breaking quickly, at least in previous versions of FM, if you had a fit squad.

*sits down and prepares to be schooled about why counter attack is usless*

[RTHerringbone]

Just wondered why your using Counter Attack as an tatical choice? Ive never really seen the disadvantage to breaking quickly, at least in previous versions of FM, if you had a fit squad.

*sits down and prepares to be schooled about why counter attack is usless*

I'm not quite sure I get the question?

I use Counter in about 5 tough Away games per season, as the opposition will operate a more Attacking Strategy than me, so I'll sit deep and narrow to soak up that pressure and put my players in positions which better offset the opposition positioning.

Also, whilst the tempo on Counter is a bit slower than Standard, my Passing Style remains default so I get a mix of shorter and more direct passes. The tempo on Counter doesn't necessarily mean that the speed at which you break is slow.