The SI Sports Centre - DISCUSSION THREAD

[aderow]

So something interesting happened today.

I was on the road against cardiff. They are 20th and I'm 1st. I won the match 6-1. Whats interesting about that you ask? According to my assistant, we played terrible. Abolutely awful.

Every time I checked his feedback, players were giving the ball away, missing interceptions etc. I was completely at a loss. I made tactical changes to no avail. There was a good 10 minutes I did notice Cardiff had the edge and thats when they got their first 2 shots (both on target and of course their goal). I found it interesting that my assistant was seemingly ripping his hair out but we managed to win by 5.

[Cleon]

So something interesting happened today.

I was on the road against cardiff. They are 20th and I'm 1st. I won the match 6-1. Whats interesting about that you ask? According to my assistant, we played terrible. Abolutely awful.

Every time I checked his feedback, players were giving the ball away, missing interceptions etc. I was completely at a loss. I made tactical changes to no avail. There was a good 10 minutes I did notice Cardiff had the edge and thats when they got their first 2 shots (both on target and of course their goal). I found it interesting that my assistant was seemingly ripping his hair out but we managed to win by 5.

What are his attributes like?

But yeah you get this a lot it's why I tend to ignore his advice and use my own judgement. Although I do take note of missed tackles/interceptions and giving the ball away.

When you looked at the stats afterwards what was pass completion like and interceptions made and tackles won for the individual players?

[Gee_Simpson]

Personally it depends what Im analysing. If its positioning of players I use 2D view, if its how my tactic is actually looking/playing I use director cam sometimes from throw ins/corners/FK i switch to 2D again to check how they are positioning themselves

3d as you can see all the details.

I use directors cam and when I replay clips that are of an attacking nature I use reversed touchline angle.

Thanks

Cleon, by attacking nature do you mean your team attacking or the other team attacking?

I also look forward to seeing those custom views as I set some up myself but it would be interesting to see which ones you create.

[jimbobBRFC]

I agree with the cutom views set up a minutes and minutes played one last night and has already helped, can instantly see who needs resting who is match fit, who needs games etc etc. Excellent for squad management.

[Cleon]

Thanks

Cleon, by attacking nature do you mean your team attacking or the other team attacking?

I also look forward to seeing those custom views as I set some up myself but it would be interesting to see which ones you create.

Both for my team and the opposition

I'll try and have the custom views done as soon as I find the time

[Gee_Simpson]

Both for my team and the opposition

I'll try and have the custom views done as soon as I find the time

Nice one

[aderow]

What are his attributes like?

But yeah you get this a lot it's why I tend to ignore his advice and use my own judgement. Although I do take note of missed tackles/interceptions and giving the ball away.

When you looked at the stats afterwards what was pass completion like and interceptions made and tackles won for the individual players?

Here's my assistant:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8079/assistant.png

My pass completion % was 74% with 65% tackles won. As for interceptions, my of all the interceptions they attempted, only 1 was missed.

Maybe I should get me a new assistant in the summer

[Cleon]

Here's my assistant:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8079/assistant.png

My pass completion % was 74% with 65% tackles won. As for interceptions, my of all the interceptions they attempted, only 1 was missed.

Maybe I should get me a new assistant in the summer

He only has 12 for tactical knowledge, so you can mostly ignore him

[aderow]

He only has 12 for tactical knowledge, so you can mostly ignore him

Lol I think I'm going to do that for the time being and then hire a better one in the summer

[bluenose1]

Cleon - in your Swansea 4-5-1 formation overview, how come your sliders for defensive line are only at the last notch of normal for fluid/control even though you are using the tactics creator?

whenever i input this setting my slider for defensive line is at least a few clicks into "push up" (and even more so when coupled with press more)

Also you refer to tweaking time wasting but in the picture you appear to have manually set tempo. Do you tweak both manually?

Thanks

[Cleon]

Cleon - in your Swansea 4-5-1 formation overview, how come your sliders for defensive line are only at the last notch of normal for fluid/control even though you are using the tactics creator?

whenever i input this setting my slider for defensive line is at least a few clicks into "push up" (and even more so when coupled with press more)

It's the same as it would be on your game.

Also you refer to tweaking time wasting but in the picture you appear to have manually set tempo. Do you tweak both manually?

Nope just time wasting like mentioned

[bluenose1]

It's the same as it would be on your game.

Nope just time wasting like mentioned

Thanks Cleon

I just realised that the TC automatically increases d line if you play without a DM

(I was attempting your settings in a 4231 - stupid me!)

I assume timewasting affects the intensity of your play and as a general rule you would go low for games you want to dominate? What is the highest you would have it from the start of a match and do you tweak it throughout a match?

I have never really experimented too much with time wasting

Cheers

[Karnage94]

Managed to get third place but regretting a few really poor performances that would have given us the the title had things went better. Lost the last two games too but happy enough with the season, got a new chairman in too, and Champions League football next year. Happy days

[kiko2929]

------------------

dead.

[Cleon]

In This Website

http://www.theawaystand.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6149-barcelona-a-numbers-game/

there is way do fc barcelona game?

just little of it i know ..

Stop posting about Barcain here please, it is irrelevant and I've directed you to other threads on Barca that will be more usful and help you. This is not the thread for what you want.

[kiko2929]

ok cleon .

sorry

[Cleon]

Managed to get third place but regretting a few really poor performances that would have given us the the title had things went better. Lost the last two games too but happy enough with the season, got a new chairman in too, and Champions League football next year. Happy days

Quite a good season especially as you still have a small squad and tiredness, injuries and suspensions will have had a bearing come end of the season no doubt?

[Karnage94]

Quite a good season especially as you still have a small squad and tiredness, injuries and suspensions will have had a bearing come end of the season no doubt?

Yeah I even had to change my formation to a 4-5-1 because I didn't have a second DM to put on the pitch because of injuries and suspensions. A couple of games I had to resort to playing players that are in no way capable of holding their own in the top flight so come the end of the season I was really struggling, I lost both of my last two games with terrible performances. I have brought in quite a few players with a nice transfer budget and got rid of some of the weaker players so I think I'm well set for the next season, I'm quite optimistic that I can give the Champions League a fair crack. I think in total I brought in 6 players who will slot right into the starting 11 and I made sure that the players I brought in would fit the tactic that I have and the way I play.

[Cleon]

Yeah I even had to change my formation to a 4-5-1 because I didn't have a second DM to put on the pitch because of injuries and suspensions. A couple of games I had to resort to playing players that are in no way capable of holding their own in the top flight so come the end of the season I was really struggling, I lost both of my last two games with terrible performances. I have brought in quite a few players with a nice transfer budget and got rid of some of the weaker players so I think I'm well set for the next season, I'm quite optimistic that I can give the Champions League a fair crack. I think in total I brought in 6 players who will slot right into the starting 11 and I made sure that the players I brought in would fit the tactic that I have and the way I play.

Nice to hear

So you got a bigger squad now then in general?

[Karnage94]

Nice to hear

So you got a bigger squad now then in general?

Well its still only 25 players but I can rely on all of them instead of avoiding using around 7 players if I can help it. I'm far happier now with the team. I have a wonderkid right back who I forked out £10M who I'm hoping will be my full back for 10 years at least to come, so I don't mind paying that much and I got Nicolas Gaitan on a free transfer, which is a bargain I'm more than happy to find. I love it when the start of January comes around so I can look and see what free transfers I can bring in at the end of the season, there's always somebody good enough to bring in.

[aderow]

Karnage you've nothing to complain about

Great season you had there mate

[Karnage94]

Thanks aderow . I really shouldn't be complaining but I have a feeling of what might have been. But still easily my best season in FM in the 4 years I've been playing, largely thanks to this and the main thread. Started off the new season with a crushing of newly promoted Valladolid, crushing is not something I normally do . With the new, improved players I've decided to play a slightly more attacking game, just changing from a standard strategy a, trying to take advantage of my reputation increase meaning teams will sit back more and I'll try to keep them pinned back the best I can. I got 24 shots off vs Valladolid, which is the most that I've had in a competitive match for a very long time. I'm hoping to retain Champions League status and maybe give a proper push for the title, also getting out of my CL group would be great.

[aderow]

In my experience its best not to over reach as far as expectations go. That way you put less pressure on yourself and on your players.

If you win it then great, but if you don't there's no need to be too down. You'll catch the big two eventually

[Karnage94]

That's true, All that I expect is to do better than the previous season. I know that catching and breaking the big two will take time, I might get it this year and I might not, but I'll only be disappointed if I don't improve on last season. My board expectations is to get into the Europa League, so I have a bit of leeway

[aderow]

That's true, All that I expect is to do better than the previous season. I know that catching and breaking the big two will take time, I might get it this year and I might not, but I'll only be disappointed if I don't improve on last season. My board expectations is to get into the Europa League, so I have a bit of leeway

I've always picked the lowest expectation. Otherwise I can find myself in trouble later on.

I remember taking over newcastle in an earlier FM. New owner with lots of money and ambition. When I took over (right before January), I told him I'd get them into europe.

I overreached big time with that guarantee.

I used that money and went out and got like 6 big names from all over europe. They did not gel and due to the huge expectations ownership had for me, I failed and I was sacked after 2 months or so.

[Karnage94]

I've always picked the lowest expectation. Otherwise I can find myself in trouble later on.

I remember taking over newcastle in an earlier FM. New owner with lots of money and ambition. When I took over (right before January), I told him I'd get them into europe.

I overreached big time with that guarantee.

I used that money and went out and got like 6 big names from all over europe. They did not gel and due to the huge expectations ownership had for me, I failed and I was sacked after 2 months or so.

I always pick the lowest expectation unless I'm given the chance to change it half way through the season, then I'll see where I am and how horribly wrong I can get it without going below expectations. Last season I was told a mid table finish which by January I changed it to a Europa League spot, just so I could get some good free transfer signings with an increased wage budget. I guess progress sometimes has to be built slowly. Luckily my new owner has just as little ambition as the old one so I don't expect to get sacked, I can't even get facilities upgraded but by all means give me nearly £20M of a transfer budget and room to nearly double my wage budget. Flawless logic

[aderow]

I always pick the lowest expectation unless I'm given the chance to change it half way through the season, then I'll see where I am and how horribly wrong I can get it without going below expectations. Last season I was told a mid table finish which by January I changed it to a Europa League spot, just so I could get some good free transfer signings with an increased wage budget. I guess progress sometimes has to be built slowly. Luckily my new owner has just as little ambition as the old one so I don't expect to get sacked, I can't even get facilities upgraded but by all means give me nearly £20M of a transfer budget and room to nearly double my wage budget. Flawless logic

I've gotta say as flawed as the logic of the AI is in this game, there's probably one thing they got right; the way that the owner's act in this game

[Karnage94]

I've gotta say as flawed as the logic of the AI is in this game, there's probably one thing they got right; the way that the owner's act in this game

Ahh very very true

[daleuk8]

Cleon: What would you do if one player was misplacing passes?

[Cleon]

Cleon: What would you do if one player was misplacing passes?

Use the analysis tab and find out why he's missing them by viewing the clips.

[Gee_Simpson]

@ Cleon - Just wondering, when do you think you'll have the free time to post up your custom squad views?

Thanks.

[Cleon]

@ Cleon - Just wondering, when do you think you'll have the free time to post up your custom squad views?

Thanks.

Not sure kind of really busy and not had much time of late, I'm hardly on the forums at the minute. Kind of expecting a new little arivval any day now, so I honestly don't know when I'll have the time to write something up.

[Gee_Simpson]

Not sure kind of really busy and not had much time of late, I'm hardly on the forums at the minute. Kind of expecting a new little arivval any day now, so I honestly don't know when I'll have the time to write something up.

Ah, no worries. Good luck with the little one

[glyndav]

After having come back to FM after a few years off, I have to say quite a lot has changed! I've been struggling a bit to get my head around the tactics creator and so been experimenting through trial and error to see the effects of all the different shouts etc. (i'm not entirely sure the write ups explaining which strategy to use are exactly right - back in the day, I used to set my teams up a lot more like the counter strategy when favourites and attacking when underdogs, at least in terms of tempo, so it seems to have gone full circle to me, but more of that in a bit!). Anyway, I've been reading these forums over the years and the Sports Centre thread is your best written piece on any incarnation so far Cleon, absolutely invaluable for anyone coming back to the game who is wanting to understand the game.

I downloaded your save game to see how I got on with it and went on to win the league with Swansea. I didn't make any changes to the base tactic you were using whatsoever, just changed things on what I was seeing in game and it worked a treat. Previously, I would set my team up differently before the match began, but I found it a lot easier to make changes through the shouts.

Anyway, quick question if thats ok. Apologies if it has already been answered, I know you talked about it earlier in the thread, but I noticed in your write up on your Swansea save that you amend time wasting dependent on the opposition and had initially written it down as tempo in error. When I had a look at your tactic, you have your tempo checked and on a low setting, with all the other team instructions on the default control setting. As you didn't really talk about that part in your write up, was there any reasoning behind having a slow tempo and not using the generic Control one? I kept the setting as is and had great success with it, but just want to check that it is an intentional change to the team settings.

The reason I ask is because this is one part (i.e. tempo) where I have struggled to understand when using the generic strategies, to be honest. As I said earlier, if my team are favourites, I like us to dominate possession and probe for openings rather than play a direct fast tempo game. However, I don't want to defend too deep when doing this, I want to keep the pressure on to win the ball back quickly. Hence, a Control or Attacking strategy seems the right way to go, but with a slower tempo, which doesn't correlate to the set positions on the strategies. On the flip side to that, if I was playing away against top opposition, I would want to sit deeper, soak up the pressure and then attack quickly on the break which to me would indicate a quick tempo, but with a Counter strategy defensive line and mentality. This is how I used to set up (albeit, we are talking a fair few versions ago now), however judging by the starting strategies, I have a feeling that my thinking is way off the mark!

edit: Just to add to that, if I read the Counter description, for example, it says"it relies on getting the ball forward quickly enough to expose the spaces behind aggressive full-backs and wingers" - surely a quicker tempo should be set if that wanted to be achieved then...?

I hope that makes sense, and I am sure I am way off the mark on this, just not sure why!

[Cleon]

After having come back to FM after a few years off, I have to say quite a lot has changed! I've been struggling a bit to get my head around the tactics creator and so been experimenting through trial and error to see the effects of all the different shouts etc. (i'm not entirely sure the write ups explaining which strategy to use are exactly right - back in the day, I used to set my teams up a lot more like the counter strategy when favourites and attacking when underdogs, at least in terms of tempo, so it seems to have gone full circle to me, but more of that in a bit!). Anyway, I've been reading these forums over the years and the Sports Centre thread is your best written piece on any incarnation so far Cleon, absolutely invaluable for anyone coming back to the game who is wanting to understand the game.

I downloaded your save game to see how I got on with it and went on to win the league with Swansea. I didn't make any changes to the base tactic you were using whatsoever, just changed things on what I was seeing in game and it worked a treat. Previously, I would set my team up differently before the match began, but I found it a lot easier to make changes through the shouts.

Anyway, quick question if thats ok. Apologies if it has already been answered, I know you talked about it earlier in the thread, but I noticed in your write up on your Swansea save that you amend time wasting dependent on the opposition and had initially written it down as tempo in error. When I had a look at your tactic, you have your tempo checked and on a low setting, with all the other team instructions on the default control setting. As you didn't really talk about that part in your write up, was there any reasoning behind having a slow tempo and not using the generic Control one? I kept the setting as is and had great success with it, but just want to check that it is an intentional change to the team settings.

The reason I ask is because this is one part (i.e. tempo) where I have struggled to understand when using the generic strategies, to be honest. As I said earlier, if my team are favourites, I like us to dominate possession and probe for openings rather than play a direct fast tempo game. However, I don't want to defend too deep when doing this, I want to keep the pressure on to win the ball back quickly. Hence, a Control or Attacking strategy seems the right way to go, but with a slower tempo, which doesn't correlate to the set positions on the strategies. On the flip side to that, if I was playing away against top opposition, I would want to sit deeper, soak up the pressure and then attack quickly on the break which to me would indicate a quick tempo, but with a Counter strategy defensive line and mentality. This is how I used to set up (albeit, we are talking a fair few versions ago now), however judging by the starting strategies, I have a feeling that my thinking is way off the mark!

edit: Just to add to that, if I read the Counter description, for example, it says"it relies on getting the ball forward quickly enough to expose the spaces behind aggressive full-backs and wingers" - surely a quicker tempo should be set if that wanted to be achieved then...?

I hope that makes sense, and I am sure I am way off the mark on this, just not sure why!

The reason for a low tempo was I wanted to keep possession and not be to agressive with the passing style and try and force it. Swansea are a decent side but I don't have great defensive players or player who can attack and defend well. But I do have a few technical players who are good on the ball and good forwards (Dyer and Sinclair) who can exploit space. They might not be the best players ever so you have to play to their strengths. So I decided to play slow so the build up was better and allow the players to carve good chances over quantity.

The reason I ask is because this is one part (i.e. tempo) where I have struggled to understand when using the generic strategies, to be honest. As I said earlier, if my team are favourites, I like us to dominate possession and probe for openings rather than play a direct fast tempo game. However, I don't want to defend too deep when doing this, I want to keep the pressure on to win the ball back quickly. Hence, a Control or Attacking strategy seems the right way to go, but with a slower tempo, which doesn't correlate to the set positions on the strategies. On the flip side to that, if I was playing away against top opposition, I would want to sit deeper, soak up the pressure and then attack quickly on the break which to me would indicate a quick tempo, but with a Counter strategy defensive line and mentality. This is how I used to set up (albeit, we are talking a fair few versions ago now), however judging by the starting strategies, I have a feeling that my thinking is way off the mark!

No that way works too. The TC thinks things logically and for easyness so players can dive straight in and play. So it does strategies based on a particular style of play. What you describe above is more advanced and is a strategy the user can use to exploit space and weaknesses of the AI. The TC just gives a basic set of roles and duties for a particular style of play rather than a particular set of events like you described.

You're not off the mark at all and are actually along the right lines

[jojko]

Can someone upload for me tactics from this Cleon save? I have patch 12.04 and i can load this save game.

[Cleon]

Can someone upload for me tactics from this Cleon save? I have patch 12.04 and i can load this save game.

If you've the latest patch and FM is upto date then it'll work.

[jojko]

I dont have original fm :/

[glyndav]

Great, thanks Cleon! It's good to know my thinking is still along the right lines. I just thought when looking at some of the generic instructions in the TC, when I think of some of the big teams around at the mo, such as Man City earlier this season and even Barca, a lot of their play I would say fits a Counter strategy rather than a Control (slow build up play, with more possession, with the ability to cut through defences when the opportunity arises), rather than it just being used for when you believe you will "lose the battle for possession". In a way, the description in the TC almost gives it a disservice - I have a feeling people could get a lot out of using the Counter strategy, not just using it when they are underdogs.

With the introduction of shouts as well, I imagine you can amend a lot of what you want your team to achieve through using them instead, and almost turn a Counter strategy into a Control one through pushing up, hassle opponents etc so that the main thing it dictates is the initial overall mentality. I'm assuming if you have manually amended a setting in the team instructions, then a shout won't have any affect on it? Also, none of the shouts have an impact on tempo, do they?

[Karnage94]

In a way, the description in the TC almost gives it a disservice - I have a feeling people could get a lot out of using the Counter strategy, not just using it when they are underdogs.

The Counter strategy is one of my favourites to use in certain situations. I had a game recently against Granada, who were 16th in the table vs my top of the table Tenerife. Normally I would have went with my Control strategy and expected a 2-0 win, however in the 3 times I'd played Granada away from home I had amassed just a draw and got beat 4-0 in my last away game vs them. So I decided to try and play a more counter attacking style and let them leave spaces to exploit. I won 3-0 with 2 goals on the counter and a header from a free kick. Even though I was comfortably the favourites to win, I had to adapt my game in fear of another stuffing

[glyndav]

So did you change your starting strategy in that match from control to counter Karnage? Or did you do it through shouts (drop deeper, pass into space I'd imagine...)?

[Karnage94]

So did you change your starting strategy in that match from control to counter Karnage? Or did you do it through shouts (drop deeper, pass into space I'd imagine...)?

I changed the starting strategy and used Get Ball Forward, Pass into Space and Exploit the Middle to burst quickly through the heart of their 4-4-2

[glyndav]

Gotcha. I'm increasingly thinking of sticking with the same starting strategy regardless and changing my set up solely through shouts. Do you have a back up tactic that is the same shape but different strategy? Or do you take a slight hit in terms of familiarity? I'm sure the hit on familiarity, if any, is worth the benefits anyway!

[Karnage94]

Gotcha. I'm increasingly thinking of sticking with the same starting strategy regardless and changing my set up solely through shouts. Do you have a back up tactic that is the same shape but different strategy? Or do you take a slight hit in terms of familiarity? I'm sure the hit on familiarity, if any, is worth the benefits anyway!

Nope, I take the hit on familiarity. The only back up formation I have is a different formation to what I have, and it's only there if I can't field 2 DM's for my first tactic

[asd]

Helo. Can I ask a few questions about tactics?

[jimbobBRFC]

Helo. Can I ask a few questions about tactics?

Fire away although unless its related to the Sports Center thread Cleon may bite your head off.

@Cleon Did you manage to write anything up about Custom views? Ive been away and want to be sure ive not missed anything

[Gee_Simpson]

@ Cleon - Just wondering, when do you think you'll have the free time to post up your custom squad views?

Thanks.

Not sure kind of really busy and not had much time of late, I'm hardly on the forums at the minute. Kind of expecting a new little arivval any day now, so I honestly don't know when I'll have the time to write something up.

Fire away although unless its related to the Sports Center thread Cleon may bite your head off.

@Cleon Did you manage to write anything up about Custom views? Ive been away and want to be sure ive not missed anything

Read the above, mate

[jimbobBRFC]

Read the above, mate

Cheers mate bit slow today sorry, first day back at work n all

[lam]

Cleon,

I'm curious as to why you use the 3D version of the game to watch play?

Given the tactical approach you take to the game I'd have thought that the overhead 2D classic mode would have been better...... you can also sqeeze a lot more windows on the screen.....

Just curious!

Regards

LAM

[Cleon]

You can't see as much detail in 2d as you can 3d. In 3d you can see why someone didn't make the tackle or was forced off the ball etc.How come you think 2d is better?