Be thankful for what we have!

[danny25]

oh, is that the only interaction available? what about when they want to move or have problems settling and other cool stuff? uhhh, press continue and ignore? tried that, couldn´t

oh sorry, did you want me to list all the possible interactions?

[Betty Swalls]

i dont care if you cheat or not, its up to each person how they play, but i dont see any point saving and reloading anything, if i go into a private chat i know what i want to happen, if it doesnt go well then i fix it. What good does it do to save before these and then reload? Even if it goes bad it can usually be fixed, if not then you sell the player on, it all mimics real life to the extent it is capable of.

hey, now i remember you. you´re the guy who thinks rooney has had a bad patch of over half a year because of some lame team talk or press conference. i think i better give up on this conversation .

[danny25]

I really enjoy reading these forums, I generally read more than I post. Recently I couldn't help but noticed the sheer volume of people unhappy with this years game, which does frustrate me. I feel some FM fans are taking this game and SI a bit for granted!

For the record, I think every years game has been an improvement on the last, and I'm thoroughly enjoying this years version.

OK, so I read topic after topic after topic about how crap this version is, how its full of bugs that will never be fixed, I find this really disappointing; (mostly because I haven't noticed them, and i find the game VERY playable indeed). I do agree that if you purchase something you are entitled to get value for money, I work in business myself and customer satisfaction is vitally important to create a successful product and brand. So lets look at the competition, and define what value for money is in this market of Football management sims!

So lets look at FM main rival, Championship Manager. There has been ONLY ONE post on the CM general discussion forum today, the one preceding that was yesterday, it averages 2-3 new posts per day and is declining! The most common topic on there at the mo is whether there will even be a version this for 2011, and the developers do not care enough about their fans or their game to provide any information. We can summarise from this there is a complete lack of a community, a by product of a really poor game. Interested further I read a review for CM2010 on GameSpot, and I laughed at some of the authors remarks who rate 6 out of 10, check it out for yourselves.

Compare this to FM, and you will very quickly have your answers regarding how much SI really DO CARE about their fans and their product. With their obvious support of the game through patches and hot-fixes, and their response to fans on this very forum, I find myself wondering what it is exactly some people are looking for out of SI? Maybe they should adopt the same approach as the CM develops maybe?

So, value for money? People need to remember that they have paid no more than £30 for this game; and then look at what they are getting for it. Above all they need to keep in mind that THIS IS A GAME not real life and can never be so, albeit SI get it pretty damn close. Play it and enjoy it within the parameters of the game, and stop moaning, and most importantly be thankful for the awesome game we have! In my opinion £30 well spent!

Done, Rant over!

just thought i'd remind people what this thread is about!!

[Lazaru5]

oh, is that the only interaction available? what about when they want to move or have problems settling and other cool stuff? uhhh, press continue and ignore? tried that, couldn´t

why do they want to move?

having trouble settling, give them a sabbatical, have a senior player with the same nationality tutor them, try not to 'overplay' them, give them time to adjust...

other cool stuff? like? "I don't wanna be in the reserves" ?? - "what can I say? you're <insert suitable descriptor>!" etc... manage your players, be their BOSS! it's easy-peasy

[Betty Swalls]

why do they want to move?

having trouble settling, give them a sabbatical, have a senior player with the same nationality tutor them, try not to 'overplay' them, give them time to adjust...

other cool stuff? like? "I don't wanna be in the reserves" ?? - "what can I say? you're <insert suitable descriptor>!" etc... manage your players, be their BOSS! it's easy-peasy

ok, i have a question for you. regarding player interaction on the above.

should the outcome of these questions be

a) in accordance with their personality so you see the effects of what you are doing makes sense

b) random

[Lazaru5]

ok, i have a question for you. regarding player interaction on the above.

should the outcome of these questions be

a) in accordance with their personality so you see the effects of what you are doing makes sense

b) random

huh? what questions?

The outcome should be whatever I expect it to be, that is the point of the interaction...

[Betty Swalls]

huh? what questions?

The outcome should be whatever I expect it to be, that is the point of the interaction...

uhhhh, are you to expect us to believe that you are a jedi knight? were are talking about mechanics here, so i am asking you if the outcome of the questions should be a or b.

let me paint the picture: a player wants to move due to he hasn´t settled. he wants an interaction with you and you have some options on what to say. should the outcome of these interactions be a or b? what you expect them to be has nothing to do with computer programming.

[Lazaru5]

uhhhh, are you to expect us to believe that you are a jedi knight? were are talking about mechanics here, so i am asking you if the outcome of the questions should be a or b.

let me paint the picture: a player wants to move due to he hasn´t settled. he wants an interaction with you and you have some options on what to say. should the outcome of these interactions be a or b? what you expect them to be has nothing to do with computer programming.

give me more info, player details, age, position, nationality, are there others in the squad of the same nationality/can speak his language? is he valuable? is he going to be great? I can go on...

essentially, he's YOUR player, you should know what to say and how to say it, you are the boss but you also can't be a monster. If it was one of my players I would know what to say, mostly, because I know how they react/work - I work with them all the time

[Blidly]

Best version yet and another good game by SI, hopefully they can up the good work

[Betty Swalls]

give me more info, player details, age, position, nationality, are there others in the squad of the same nationality/can speak his language? is he valuable? is he going to be great? I can go on...

essentially, he's YOUR player, you should know what to say and how to say it, you are the boss but you also can't be a monster. If it was one of my players I would know what to say, mostly, because I know how they react/work - I work with them all the time

i don´t know if you are missing the point intentionally or if you simply don´t undertand the question. it could be any player from anywhere, it doesn´t matter at all. should the outcome be random or not, should personality have an effect or not, should the answer have an effect or not?

[telV7]

I think player interaction responses are based primarily on personality, however, the age of the player, the players nationality, the players determination and even the squad status will more than likely play a part. As for randomness, I think there is an element, albeit, a small one just to throw the user an occasional curve ball to keep you on your toes.

[Betty Swalls]

I think player interaction responses are based primarily on personality, however, the age of the player, the players nationality, the players determination and even the squad status will more than likely play a part. As for randomness, I think there is an element, albeit, a small one just to throw the user an occasional curve ball to keep you on your toes.

occasional? i don´t think that programming really offers that possibility. it´s more like having a roll dice option where the house says "oh shucks, you just crapped out"

[Lazaru5]

i don´t know if you are missing the point intentionally or if you simply don´t undertand the question. it could be any player from anywhere, it doesn´t matter at all. should the outcome be random or not, should personality have an effect or not, should the answer have an effect or not?

it's not random... and far as I can tell it definitely has an effect. I think that because you can't 'get it' it's broken, where if you tried to 'get it' you'd see that, 1. it isn't broken, and 2, you become a better manager

[Betty Swalls]

it's not random... and far as I can tell it definitely has an effect. I think that because you can't 'get it' it's broken, where if you tried to 'get it' you'd see that, 1. it isn't broken, and 2, you become a better manager

this is where you and i will differ. i have tried it and what you are saying is simply guessing. i didn´t say it was broken either , it just doesn´t work the way that we all had the impression of. big difference

[Martyr1777]

I'm one of the games harshest critics without being a flat out baseless hater. You know why I am so harsh with SI over it? Because I love the overall concept of the game and think it's got AWESOME potential for those of use that like management sims and football both. So I get on SI's case about things, most recently the defensive AI which has been big problem since I started playing the game. Call it tough love or something, if they can't get things fixed and just add pointless new 'features' the game will die out as it just gets worse and worse.

Now it's one thing if say the AI was having problems because of some complex calculation. It's a whole other things when, as I've posted in the ME boards, the AI constantly has defensive players out of position or leaving their marks for no reason at all.

Why should people be happy with buggy games? What is it about the video game industry that makes faulty products ok? 10-15 years ago it wasn't ok, why now? Why can't it be like other industries, if you buy TV and find out it shuts off every so often you take it back and get one that works right, you aren't thankful for something that works part of the time.

I've told others in PM the only time I'm on these boards is when I'm actually playing the game (post while the game processes because I play max leagues). Do I like the game in general? Of course or I wouldn't waste my time on here. Do I offer constructive criticism? Yeah, I offer what help I can to other players and basic feedback on smaller things. Do i ride SI hard about serious core aspects of the game? Damn straight... if you say 'oh by the way, defensive AI could use a look' and just be thankful for what is working then they don't see how serious it is and waste all the more time with junk like agents. But if you ride them about it and offer video after video of how the AI fails completely then hopefully they'll put more serious work into it. If not those of us that aren't happy stop buying the game.

So in summary, why should any of us be happy with a game that has broken core aspects to it? If you want to be happy with what you see fine, but just because you don't see the problems don't tell others to just deal. I can understand tbis being directed at the morons that just post pointless hate. But guess what, those people don't care anyway, just gives them more reason to troll so don't waste your time. But there are plenty of people that complain about things because we want the game to be better.

[telV7]

You seem pretty ****ed about the whole player interaction thing Betty, but whilst it can be tricky to navigate it is not all too difficult and not something to give up on.

I have found that if I use, for the most part, common sense, it tends to go okay.

As for randomness I equate it to the hidden attributes of a player, possibly ambition, professionalism, temperament. This I feel is why two players can have a personality that is determined with an attribute of 15, yet still behave differently to the same question.

[Betty Swalls]

You seem pretty ****ed about the whole player interaction thing Betty, but whilst it can be tricky to navigate it is not all too difficult and not something to give up on.

I have found that if I use, for the most part, common sense, it tends to go okay.

As for randomness I equate it to the hidden attributes of a player, possibly ambition, professionalism, temperament. This I feel is why two players can have a personality that is determined with an attribute of 15, yet still behave differently to the same question.

it is not the main issue, of course, it just creates a lot of questions in regards to the game we are playing. there are several points that come into perspective, one of them being that most of us don´t know how the game reacts, it is a problem imo. i´m not talking about two different players either but the same exact player.

it´s hard to get my pants into a bunch, i´m just trying to be constructive in my critisisms

[Martyr1777]

You seem pretty ****ed about the whole player interaction thing Betty, but whilst it can be tricky to navigate it is not all too difficult and not something to give up on.

I have found that if I use, for the most part, common sense, it tends to go okay.

As for randomness I equate it to the hidden attributes of a player, possibly ambition, professionalism, temperament. This I feel is why two players can have a personality that is determined with an attribute of 15, yet still behave differently to the same question.

Just to put my 2 cents into the player interaction....

Common sense works on most of it... but the annoying parts of the player interaction are the times you have an ambitious youngster and well you tell them to learn a common sense PPM they say it wouldn't help their game. Whatever.

But regarding the statement telV7 said about the personality/hidden attribs being the cause of the apparent 'randomness'... He is probably right, but since they are determined by -hidden- attributes then how the hell are we supposed to know how they will react without just trial and error. If they are going to have those differences then we need more information about the players so we have at least some idea to start with. But beyond that, there are some things that just don't make sense about player reactions just because of hard coding.

For instance a player getting a blatant violent red card early in the first half. Red card doesn't drop the players rating so he's got a 6.8 even though he completely screwed the team. End of the match you give him a negative team talk, player gets upset because reaction to performance feedback is based on the players rating. So he didn't have a bad game, he had a 6.8 rating, even though he had the red card. But that's not all to this scenario. I also fined the player 2 weeks salary for the red card and he accepted the fine... yet the negative feedback was unwarranted, uhhh ok.

Do you see the contradiction?

[Betty Swalls]

I'm one of the games harshest critics without being a flat out baseless hater. You know why I am so harsh with SI over it? Because I love the overall concept of the game and think it's got AWESOME potential for those of use that like management sims and football both. So I get on SI's case about things, most recently the defensive AI which has been big problem since I started playing the game. Call it tough love or something, if they can't get things fixed and just add pointless new 'features' the game will die out as it just gets worse and worse.

Now it's one thing if say the AI was having problems because of some complex calculation. It's a whole other things when, as I've posted in the ME boards, the AI constantly has defensive players out of position or leaving their marks for no reason at all.

Why should people be happy with buggy games? What is it about the video game industry that makes faulty products ok? 10-15 years ago it wasn't ok, why now? Why can't it be like other industries, if you buy TV and find out it shuts off every so often you take it back and get one that works right, you aren't thankful for something that works part of the time.

I've told others in PM the only time I'm on these boards is when I'm actually playing the game (post while the game processes because I play max leagues). Do I like the game in general? Of course or I wouldn't waste my time on here. Do I offer constructive criticism? Yeah, I offer what help I can to other players and basic feedback on smaller things. Do i ride SI hard about serious core aspects of the game? Damn straight... if you say 'oh by the way, defensive AI could use a look' and just be thankful for what is working then they don't see how serious it is and waste all the more time with junk like agents. But if you ride them about it and offer video after video of how the AI fails completely then hopefully they'll put more serious work into it. If not those of us that aren't happy stop buying the game.

So in summary, why should any of us be happy with a game that has broken core aspects to it? If you want to be happy with what you see fine, but just because you don't see the problems don't tell others to just deal. I can understand tbis being directed at the morons that just post pointless hate. But guess what, those people don't care anyway, just gives them more reason to troll so don't waste your time. But there are plenty of people that complain about things because we want the game to be better.

well said . it´s human nature to sometimes go against the stream, helps us stop and think for a second. i feel a lot like you do, it´s just that i have peepoor communication skills and am just a goomba punching keys on a keyboard :o

[imagawa99]

but the annoying parts of the player interaction are the times you have an ambitious youngster and well you tell them to learn a common sense PPM they say it wouldn't help their game.

Not one single player has accepted when asked to learn a new move, same goes with unlearning, they always refuse. I gave up trying and have just accepted that this part of the game is broken. It doesnt seem to have stopped me winning. The fact that im the boss and they ought to do what they are damn well told doesnt seem to enter into it. The conversation just ends with a sulky player. While im here and moaning ever sinse 2011s crappy new training screen i have given up bothering to alter any of the players scheduals, compared to 2010 when i gave every player their own carefully tailored schedual. This hasnt seemed to stop me winning either. That in itself is a problem imo.

[megafan2005]

As someone who's last 7 goals conceded were all from corners I can officially say I hate 11.3

[telV7]

it is not the main issue, of course, it just creates a lot of questions in regards to the game we are playing. there are several points that come into perspective, one of them being that most of us don´t know how the game reacts, it is a problem imo. i´m not talking about two different players either but the same exact player.

it´s hard to get my pants into a bunch, i´m just trying to be constructive in my critisisms

I take your point, and in truth I can't say why on a save reload to the same question, why the responses would be different.

I tried a quick go at it and for me it didn't work, asked a player to train a PPM, he said no, tried to say he should give it a go, he left. Reloaded, he said no, did the I think I know what is best, he left.

The only thing I know is that he will not be training that PPM:D

[Betty Swalls]

Just to put my 2 cents into the player interaction....

Common sense works on most of it... but the annoying parts of the player interaction are the times you have an ambitious youngster and well you tell them to learn a common sense PPM they say it wouldn't help their game. Whatever.

But regarding the statement telV7 said about the personality/hidden attribs being the cause of the apparent 'randomness'... He is probably right, but since they are determined by -hidden- attributes then how the hell are we supposed to know how they will react without just trial and error. If they are going to have those differences then we need more information about the players so we have at least some idea to start with. But beyond that, there are some things that just don't make sense about player reactions just because of hard coding.

For instance a player getting a blatant violent red card early in the first half. Red card doesn't drop the players rating so he's got a 6.8 even though he completely screwed the team. End of the match you give him a negative team talk, player gets upset because reaction to performance feedback is based on the players rating. So he didn't have a bad game, he had a 6.8 rating, even though he had the red card. But that's not all to this scenario. I also fined the player 2 weeks salary for the red card and he accepted the fine... yet the negative feedback was unwarranted, uhhh ok.

Do you see the contradiction?

this is getting to the core of a lot of issues. the overall interaction aspect has a contradicting aspect and in the long run you just give up or decide not to try and understand what is going on. i can hardly think that this is the way the game was designed. when things don´t really make sense and are hard to figure out, i think it does take a lot of the enjoyment out of the game. i don´t recall reading any of your previous posts but i think i will have to take a look

[Martyr1777]

Not one single player has accepted when asked to learn a new move, same goes with unlearning, they always refuse. I gave up trying and have just accepted that this part of the game is broken. It doesnt seem to have stopped me winning. The fact that im the boss and they ought to do what they are damn well told doesnt seem to enter into it. The conversation just ends with a sulky player. While im here and moaning ever sinse 2011s crappy new training screen i have given up bothering to alter any of the players scheduals, compared to 2010 when i gave every player their own carefully tailored schedual. This hasnt seemed to stop me winning either. That in itself is a problem imo.

Yeah... I really dislike the player interaction in 2011. But it's taken a backseat to me because the defensive AI is just completely terrible right now. But you are correct, half the time when talking to a player I don't get the impression of being a manager, but being a babysitter attending to unruly 3 y/o. I mean you can't do anything to discipline them and they always do what they want unless you can convince them. Convince them hell... we're supposed to be the boss right, we want them to do something we tell them do no questions asked. Now if there is a good or bad result from what we told them is another story, but for player after player to flat out say no to so much stuff is just stupid.

The only thing in the player interaction system that's actually clear is performance feedback... < 6.2 and you can tell them they sucked and they'll accept it, > 6.2 they'll think they played fine even when missing key shots, headers, etc or getting bad/numerous fouls or cards. Beyond that, have no clue what way players will react to anything from lack of information, just have to try it.

I will say though, whenever my backroom gives advise for a player to learn a PPM if I follow that advice the player ALWAYS accepts the recommendation.

Edit: lol, thanks betty... i've not posted in a long while... stopped playing because I hated 11.2 and like I said, I only post when I play. So if that doesn't show I actually want the game to be better I don't know what does.

[telV7]

I will say though, whenever my backroom gives advise for a player to learn a PPM if I follow that advice the player ALWAYS accepts the recommendation.

I have noticed this also, and the only thing I can put it down to is the player has reached a certain stage of development so as learning the PPM is warranted or possibly coaches have an influence. It might seem a ridiculous type of reasoning on my part, but hey.

[Betty Swalls]

I take your point, and in truth I can't say why on a save reload to the same question, why the responses would be different.

I tried a quick go at it and for me it didn't work, asked a player to train a PPM, he said no, tried to say he should give it a go, he left. Reloaded, he said no, did the I think I know what is best, he left.

The only thing I know is that he will not be training that PPM:D

as others have pointed out, you can only be successful if it was recommended by backroom staff so hardly a surprise there. try it in other instances

[Betty Swalls]

I have noticed this also, and the only thing I can put it down to is the player has reached a certain stage of development so as learning the PPM is warranted or possibly coaches have an influence. It might seem a ridiculous type of reasoning on my part, but hey.

ha. you beat me to it. lol

[Gandy]

Isn’t re-loading after player interaction just like re-loading after a game? You really shouldn’t get the same result each time, but sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. Even if you try, you can’t do everything exactly the same, even if it appears you are doing so. That’s my two cents anyways.

[imagawa99]

the defensive AI is just completely terrible right now.

I watched a game the other day, oppostion striker runs at goal with the ball, i have one central defender between him and the goaly (my captain as it goes) i watched him back away and back away, the striker is in the area now and hes still backing away... and then he shoots past my defender and past the goaly and scores! Ignoring the fact that i mark and close strikers anyway, under what circumstances should a defender be backing away from an opposition striker in that situation? i cant think of any excuse or justification for it personally. I have said it before, instead of making the AI team play well, the game makes you concede goals by making your team play badly, or fail to play at all. Its broken and i feel we have a right to see it fixed. The 3 patch policy is a disgusting way to treat fans.

[imagawa99]

As far as PPM goes, the only times i have asked is after being prompted by my backroom staff and i have ALWAYS been refused. Its not worth bothering with.

[Lazaru5]

Just to put my 2 cents into the player interaction....

Common sense works on most of it... but the annoying parts of the player interaction are the times you have an ambitious youngster and well you tell them to learn a common sense PPM they say it wouldn't help their game. Whatever.

But regarding the statement telV7 said about the personality/hidden attribs being the cause of the apparent 'randomness'... He is probably right, but since they are determined by -hidden- attributes then how the hell are we supposed to know how they will react without just trial and error. If they are going to have those differences then we need more information about the players so we have at least some idea to start with. But beyond that, there are some things that just don't make sense about player reactions just because of hard coding.

For instance a player getting a blatant violent red card early in the first half. Red card doesn't drop the players rating so he's got a 6.8 even though he completely screwed the team. End of the match you give him a negative team talk, player gets upset because reaction to performance feedback is based on the players rating. So he didn't have a bad game, he had a 6.8 rating, even though he had the red card. But that's not all to this scenario. I also fined the player 2 weeks salary for the red card and he accepted the fine... yet the negative feedback was unwarranted, uhhh ok.

Do you see the contradiction?

no, you know why? the red card is a separate issue to the match performance. IRL the guy that was sent off would have been in his suit and tie and sat in the stands for half the game, for you to then bollock him in the team-talk is unfair. You have the disciplinary procedure for a reason, you know what it is, your players know what it is, it works...

randomness? it's not random, your players react the way they are programmed to react. You should know how they are going to react and even if you don't because you're new or they're new you should still be able to repair the damage... your team-talk feedback gives you insights into your players, noticing how players react to things you say in the media, to wins and defeats, to private chats and tap-ups, all of it helps you to "get to know" them. Watching them on the pitch gives you insights too, watching the full game is so under-rated it's unreal. It's knowing your players that gives you the answers, and then the game is easy...

[imagawa99]

Watching them on the pitch gives you insights too, watching the full game is so under-rated it's unreal. It's knowing your players that gives you the answers, and then the game is easy...

Its the only way i have ever played and i think its at the root of many of the games problems. The ME has been botched together, the holiday crowd and the highlight watchers cant see the problems and then post about how great their game is on the forums, while the more in depth players are gob smacked at how they could say such a thing.

[Betty Swalls]

randomness? it's not random, your players react the way they are programmed to react.

are you speaking out of fact or have you really tried it out? i saw the randomness in this department with my own two eyes, whereas you are just making a guess. i know others who have seen the same thing, even in this thread. i think you have to get your facts straight first, if you have proof then fine, if you don´t then :confused:

[Martyr1777]

Isn’t re-loading after player interaction just like re-loading after a game? You really shouldn’t get the same result each time, but sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. Even if you try, you can’t do everything exactly the same, even if it appears you are doing so. That’s my two cents anyways.

Depends if you are just cheating or actually testing... I liked the 2010 player interaction and have always hated the 2011. So when 2011 first came out just to try and figure out how it worked, since there is NO feedback about it, I tried the same thing...

Me: 'Learn this PPM'

Player: 'No'

Me: <convince option 1>

Player: <leaves>

reload and try again with each option none work. So like I said, babysitting unruly children, not being a manager of a professional football team. I have a very high discipline background and when we have no way to TELL players this is the way things are and they better deal with it then it's just a joke because you can't run a show like that. The players run that show and we are just helpful advisors.

BTW, I've also done things like save at the end of a month, crossed and checked how much was spent on 'Other' expenses. Reloaded and crossed again only to see a 150K difference in 'Other' expenses (500K down to 350K). Considering there couldn't have been any way the expenses really changed since there was no time for it to be different that showed the the 'Other' category that breaks the financial model was random within a range.

So saving and reloading has it's uses for people that want to point out issues.

[Lazaru5]

are you speaking out of fact or have you really tried it out? i saw the randomness in this department with my own two eyes, whereas you are just making a guess. i know others who have seen the same thing, even in this thread. i think you have to get your facts straight first, if you have proof then fine, if you don´t then :confused:

I'm playing the game, I'm 3 matches (and 3 defeats 0 goals - life is tough in League 1) into season 2 with Hereford, I'm "trying it out" I suppose... What proof do you need? I don't need to give you proof of anything, the answers are staring you in the face every time you view your squad list, get it 'right' and the game is fun and incredible...

[Martyr1777]

no, you know why? the red card is a separate issue to the match performance. IRL the guy that was sent off would have been in his suit and tie and sat in the stands for half the game, for you to then bollock him in the team-talk is unfair. You have the disciplinary procedure for a reason, you know what it is, your players know what it is, it works...

randomness? it's not random, your players react the way they are programmed to react. You should know how they are going to react and even if you don't because you're new or they're new you should still be able to repair the damage... your team-talk feedback gives you insights into your players, noticing how players react to things you say in the media, to wins and defeats, to private chats and tap-ups, all of it helps you to "get to know" them. Watching them on the pitch gives you insights too, watching the full game is so under-rated it's unreal. It's knowing your players that gives you the answers, and then the game is easy...

In regards to the red card scenario... after I watched my team captain commit a horrendous fully malicious studs up tackle from behind on a player because that player had just stolen the ball from him (that was the EXACT situation I saw in-game), getting a red card for that early in the match, there would have been no way in hell that player would have gotten to the dressing room to change into his suit and tie before I tore into his ass if it was IRL. But regardless, having such completely poor judgment, especially for a professional (that is his personality) veteran team leader, it in excusable IRL or in-game. So red cards should obviously effect a players rating. But again... when you fine a player for a red card and they accept it and you are unhappy with their performance in the match for the same reason, they are OBVIOUSLY directly connected. The only issue is that the cards don't effect ratings and player reactions to praise/criticism are SOLELY based on that players rating. Try putting all the spin you want on it, it's a flawed system pure and simple.

As for the 'randomness'... read my post again and note the quote marks. i'm just referring to how others have put it, not saying it is random. But it does SEEM random because we don't have the information we need... the minimal personality information we have on the player does not tell us anything about how a player will react to anything because the system is more detailed then we can see. I've had players which displayed the same personality traits but react differently to the same interaction choices. So if the information I have says they are the same but they aren't then how the hell am I supposed to know what will and won't happen unless I just try it.

[Azuru]

I can't play the game at all unless I manage the top teams. What I mean is, If I go one of the bottom teams I underachieve every single time. Just haven't got a clue how to play this game.

[Lazaru5]

As for the 'randomness'... read my post again and note the quote marks. i'm just referring to how others have put it, not saying it is random. But it does SEEM random because we don't have the information we need... the minimal personality information we have on the player does not tell us anything about how a player will react to anything because the system is more detailed then we can see. I've had players which displayed the same personality traits but react differently to the same interaction choices. So if the information I have says they are the same but they aren't then how the hell am I supposed to know what will and won't happen unless I just try it.

your team-talk feedback gives you insights into your players, noticing how players react to things you say in the media, to wins and defeats, to private chats and tap-ups, all of it helps you to "get to know" them. Watching them on the pitch gives you insights too, watching the full game is so under-rated it's unreal. It's knowing your players that gives you the answers, and then the game is easy...

Honestly, all the answers are there, you just need to 'find' them *shrugs*

[Betty Swalls]

I'm playing the game, I'm 3 matches (and 3 defeats 0 goals - life is tough in League 1) into season 2 with Hereford, I'm "trying it out" I suppose... What proof do you need? I don't need to give you proof of anything, the answers are staring you in the face every time you view your squad list, get it 'right' and the game is fun and incredible...

well, it was brought up that reloading is cheating, so i think i better explain the situation so you understand it in full.

ok, so i buy the game and played for quite a while, no problems with crash dumps or anything. get this brilliant idea to download a facepack just to try it out, pretty popular site too. all of a sudden i find myself in crash dump heaven, i think that a lot of others probably experienced the same but contrary to others i blame myself. so, player interaction with player that has a hard time settling in. say this and that and all is fine, then boom a freakin crash dump. luckily i´m still on the rolling save thingy, so restart. again the interaction, same this and that but now player wants to move and there is no going back .

now i ask you, does it work like it should or is it random. let´s go back to my question in post 55, should it be a or b in your mind? if it is not option a then how do you feel about it? if you say that it should be fixed then golly me, i might just have to slap the backside of your head

[telV7]

I can't play the game at all unless I manage the top teams. What I mean is, If I go one of the bottom teams I underachieve every single time. Just haven't got a clue how to play this game.

Slightly off the topic, but you play the game the same way. I think the leagues are all relative, meaning that in each division you will have you top four, your regular mid table finishers and your minnows. The player attributes scale down accordingly, tactically I don't think you have to change a great deal. Granted yes, asking Cheltenham to play a Barca style of football is a hard ask, but you can still get something akin to a beautiful football in the lower leagues.

[Martyr1777]

Lol all the answers are not there.. because team-talk feedback has very little to do with player interaction.

If you give a negative team talk to players that don't have a low rating they react badly, not because of their personality. If you have a youngster that they might get nevous so you get the pressure off them, if you have a player that needs to be pushed you tell them you expect a performance, etc. I have that down easily enough, does any of it change how a player reacts in player interaction? Well aside from the ratings being the only related issue for match performance statements, no.

Just by saying positive things in the media the players are happy or just ignore it. Real big surprise there, media is very empty.

You win players morale goes up, you lose it goes down, the more determined a player is the less it drops. Still no relation to player interaction.

Some of the player interaction options try to appeal to a players professionalism. Players that are described as professional and are indeed the most professional members of my squad (not to mention the team leaders) have brushed that off just like anything else.

Lastly, like I said, I've had players with the same personality types displayed and reacted to all your stuff the same way. yeah reacted completely different in player interaction, likely because their hidden attributes matched the various personality traits that are displayed but yet were different enough that they actually reacted differently. IE lack of information.

Oh, one last this.. all that said. It still makes NO sense why some little 16 y/o brat refuses to learn any PPM you suggest and the manager just sits there and listens as the kid says he knows better, doesn't care what the manager thinks, etc. REALLY?! That makes sense to you?

Get real.

[telV7]

Just looking at PPM's and trying to be very objective, it is strange the way they are structured within the game. It would be interesting to know why they were structured in such a manner as, I feel, there would have to be a reason for it. It is just we don't know it;)

Working on the basis that the game is a simulation as close to real life as possible I too find it difficult that a 16yo thinks they know better.

Logically working through the steps, IRL, any youth player would consider themselves fortunate to be in a position whereby if they apply themselves and work hard they are a chance of getting a professional contract.

If we look at three mangers, Sir Alex, currently top of the league, Moyes in 9th and Mick McCarthy in 19th. That would be three different reputations with two possibly being under pressure, yet I still doubt that a youth player would reject a plan for developing a certain skill.

Why, simply that in order for them to progress and get a professional contract they need to impress the manager and trust in what he says.

Taking it back to FM, it should be the same, the idea of a player rejecting to train a PPM should be a rarity (smartarse), at the moment it is morseo the norm that a player will reject.

I have no issue with a youth player saying that they would be unsure as to the benefit, but I would expect them to do it, if it were unsuccessful so be it. Reasons could be, a little too soon, other areas may need to develop. Possibly a little farther down the track one could try again.

[Azuru]

I hate that media comments carry so much influence. Media comments nearly every match man. I can't be arsed with that. What makes things worse, if you leave it to your assistant he always picks the worst combination of answers imaginable. No joke, it's as if your assist is out to get you beaten

[Martyr1777]

Just looking at PPM's and trying to be very objective, it is strange the way they are structured within the game. It would be interesting to know why they were structured in such a manner as, I feel, there would have to be a reason for it. It is just we don't know it;)

Working on the basis that the game is a simulation as close to real life as possible I too find it difficult that a 16yo thinks they know better.

Logically working through the steps, IRL, any youth player would consider themselves fortunate to be in a position whereby if they apply themselves and work hard they are a chance of getting a professional contract.

If we look at three mangers, Sir Alex, currently top of the league, Moyes in 9th and Mick McCarthy in 19th. That would be three different reputations with two possibly being under pressure, yet I still doubt that a youth player would reject a plan for developing a certain skill.

Why, simply that in order for them to progress and get a professional contract they need to impress the manager and trust in what he says.

Taking it back to FM, it should be the same, the idea of a player rejecting to train a PPM should be a rarity (smartarse), at the moment it is morseo the norm that a player will reject.

I have no issue with a youth player saying that they would be unsure as to the benefit, but I would expect them to do it, if it were unsuccessful so be it. Reasons could be, a little too soon, other areas may need to develop. Possibly a little farther down the track one could try again.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the final sentence. It's simple common sense. I can understand a season vet saying a PPM wouldn't help his game and not even try it (in -some- situations), but for a kid to say no and not try. What manager would take that from someone that has no reputation at all. They'd get dished off to the worst affiliate available if it were me irl.

Just like with hockey, use it because they move back and forth more often. In the NHL if one of the players isn't playing well they either sit them or drop them down to the minors for a short time. It's a smack in the face, a non-verbal 'you better shape up because you aren't helping the team'.

The manager/coach might not always know best. But unless you are a hell of a super star you damn well better do what they say if you want to continue a career, young or not.

[tom_numbers]

I take issue with people who complain about having put their hard earned money into it. You can generally pick it up for half the price of other new release games, yet it is far more than half as good.

[Lazaru5]

well, it was brought up that reloading is cheating, so i think i better explain the situation so you understand it in full.

ok, so i buy the game and played for quite a while, no problems with crash dumps or anything. get this brilliant idea to download a facepack just to try it out, pretty popular site too. all of a sudden i find myself in crash dump heaven, i think that a lot of others probably experienced the same but contrary to others i blame myself. so, player interaction with player that has a hard time settling in. say this and that and all is fine, then boom a freakin crash dump. luckily i´m still on the rolling save thingy, so restart. again the interaction, same this and that but now player wants to move and there is no going back .

now i ask you, does it work like it should or is it random. let´s go back to my question in post 55, should it be a or b in your mind? if it is not option a then how do you feel about it? if you say that it should be fixed then golly me, i might just have to slap the backside of your head

how far back did you have to go when your game crashed? all sorts of things could have happened in the 'replay' that didn't in the first - you'd be at a totally different scenario.

[Lazaru5]

Lol all the answers are not there.. because team-talk feedback has very little to do with player interaction.

expect a performance - seemed motivated - half-time 8.0 G 1 A 1

pleased - inspired to a great performance, morale boost, happy, etc. - full-time 9.6 G 3 A 1

delighted - happy

kid walks around with a Cheshire Cat smile for the next 3 weeks, <manager name> appears in 'favoured personnel', teams performances improve, snowball effect...

yup, I see absolutely nothing there to indicate it has anything at all to do with player interaction.... I'm pretty sure that if he likes me and he doesn't like you his reaction would be different to the same request in the same circumstances..

If you give a negative team talk to players that don't have a low rating they react badly, not because of their personality. If you have a youngster that they might get nevous so you get the pressure off them, if you have a player that needs to be pushed you tell them you expect a performance, etc. I have that down easily enough, does any of it change how a player reacts in player interaction? Well aside from the ratings being the only related issue for match performance statements, no.

Just by saying positive things in the media the players are happy or just ignore it. Real big surprise there, media is very empty.

just because there is no PR icon next to their name doesn't mean that they haven't heard and reacted. Morale movements after a press conference/statement can be up or down with no other noticeable indication of a reaction

You win players morale goes up, you lose it goes down, the more determined a player is the less it drops. Still no relation to player interaction.

Some of the player interaction options try to appeal to a players professionalism. Players that are described as professional and are indeed the most professional members of my squad (not to mention the team leaders) have brushed that off just like anything else.

Lastly, like I said, I've had players with the same personality types displayed and reacted to all your stuff the same way. yeah reacted completely different in player interaction, likely because their hidden attributes matched the various personality traits that are displayed but yet were different enough that they actually reacted differently. IE lack of information.

Oh, one last this.. all that said. It still makes NO sense why some little 16 y/o brat refuses to learn any PPM you suggest and the manager just sits there and listens as the kid says he knows better, doesn't care what the manager thinks, etc. REALLY?! That makes sense to you?

Get real.

hmm... let's see? I'm a 16 year old welsh left winger that (presumably) is going to be great, you signed me after all... all of my life I've modelled myself on Ryan Giggs, everything he can do, I can also do but he's better than me (for now) then you come along and ask me to change the very game I've spent 16 years perfecting? Get Real!

you see you keep treating it like a game instead of a simulation. All of this "hidden" stuff displays itself in other ways, you just have to learn how to read it. If you immerse yourself into the role of "you the manager" and "them the players" (instead of them the database entries) you'll learn each players traits and tricks. You'll learn how they are most effective. I keep harping on but I can't help it, watching the whole game is the best way to 'understand' your players. If you get it wrong, put it right... sometimes it can be the heavy hand that brings a "wants to leave" player into line, sometimes it's the soft touch that gently brings him around, as your players you *should* know which will react in which way to which approach

[Betty Swalls]

how far back did you have to go when your game crashed? all sorts of things could have happened in the 'replay' that didn't in the first - you'd be at a totally different scenario.

it is not really important. although it was the same day. but all in all it is not the main issue, the point is that it would be kind of nice that we knew what we were talking about. an overall picture is that the whole process of interaction, press and team talks don´t represent reality and i think this is one of the things that is hard to get to grips with. being repetative is one thing, but it doesn´t make sense and has too much influence. even down in the really bottom leagues, have you heard the manager of tiscot town attended a press conference? and on top he blew it?

but other things are just not making it the game some of us hoped for. some of it is fun and other stuff is a chore, get rid of the chores or tone it down a notch, make the match engine a real treat to watch. it is not because i feel that i should win more, but it would be more spectacular to see an awesome match engine than a press conference that has a set of trivial options. maybe it´s just me :o

[Lazaru5]

the 'trivial options' are your way to convey your message to your players... :facepalm: the players aren't real, you can't go up to them and speak with them, your only tools are team-talks and player and media interaction. In the 'real-world' you'd be conveying your message to them directly.. you can't do that in FM, or not in the same way, so you have to use the tools that you have available and they work well, too well almost!

Once I'm immersed in the game, that is my 'reality' for that time period. I am Lazarus Nunya Hereford Manager and these are my players and we are in League 1 after storming League 2 last season. When I come out of the game, I'm me... or is he me? :confused:

[Martyr1777]

You are putting more depth in these things then there really is Laz... Yeah i treat it as a game, because it is.. its a sim but game first. You can't have the level of complexity you are suggesting in a game.

As for the media thing... media is an empty feature, that simple. Everyone knows what are the right responses, you never even have to read the questions. Yeah they effect morale, no one is saying they don't but that doesn't mean it has depth. You just pick the right answers, which never change, and your good.

As for the kid. Not all 16 y/o's have super star potential first of all. Most 16 y/o aren't molded on anything having no PPM's. But all that is irrelevant because you're argument suggests the AI is actually capable of thinking like a human which it's not. If you have a winger who has great dribbling, technique, and is fast as the wind why would they say knocking the ball past an opponent wouldn't help their game, hell yeah it would. Or a lightning quick striker with goo anticipation, beating the off-side trap would be perfect... oh wait, the player thinks it's stupid.

But you wanna talk about a real simulation... I don't care how damn good a kid is. Like in the example you gave. Ok, signed the kid because he has potential. That contract is mine, the brat better not have an attitude or he'll never seen the field. But if if his attitude was that bad to begin with never would have signed him in the first place.

You are just the opposite of that the OP was complaining about.. you are a fanboy that thinks everything is fine and gives these pointless arguments attempting to say its fine. But you're arguments have nothing to do with actual game mechanics and common sense for that matter.