Insane agents.

[dking]

Well, a few people on here agree with me and say it works well for them. Obviously those that have a problem with it will be more vocal, but I'd suggest it is working well for most people.

If SI change it, and it doesn't work for me anymore, then I'll turn into you in this argument, so they can't win. It's all subjective anyway - I think it's realistic and you don't. SI are going to annoy someone, so all they can do is make it to the standard they're happy with and release it. I can only assume they agree with me at the moment, otherwise agents will get a tweak or makeover in the new patch.

Such flawed logic from some people.

Just because people haven't run into a problem, does not mean that there isn't a problem! It just means they have been fortunate enough not to encounter the problem, yet.

Why cant people accept the fact that it's broken? When SI actually release the last patch and have tweaked the agents, it means that SI have acknowledged that there is a problem and it's not working properly. Case closed, because they will tweak it.

Until then, I really cant be bothered to argue with people anymore. As I said in my last post, for some people, It really does boil down to winning an argument, and the facts, no longer matter. Some people get given clear evidence but still want to spout off about "but this is my opinion blah blah blah". Seriously, give those ego's a rest.

[milnerpoint]

The end result is proof enough of the testing and design of the feature. I am a consumer so I judge by the end result.

It's common sense.

Yeah, because when SI thinks something is fine, it most certainly is. Just grow up.

The problem is that a logical person would say "I haven't had any problems with agents, but I agree that the agent fees are too high based on other player's experiences."

You, on the other hand, just take your opinion as fact, dismissing other examples. In fact, you are the kind of consumer every company needs.

why do you have to be agressive putting your point across? anyway you havent proved anything, all you have done is given your opinion, not proof.

[DamianJMcGrath]

Such flawed logic from some people.

Just because people haven't run into a problem, does not mean that there isn't a problem! It just means they have been fortunate enough not to encounter the problem, yet.

Why cant people accept the fact that it's broken? When SI actually release the last patch and have tweaked the agents, it means that SI have acknowledged that there is a problem and it's not working properly. Case closed, because they will tweak it.

Until then, I really cant be bothered to argue with people anymore. As I said in my last post, for some people, It really does boil down to winning an argument, and the facts, no longer matter. Some people get given clear evidence but still want to spout off about "but this is my opinion blah blah blah". Seriously, give those ego's a rest.

It could be a case of you think it's broken, but it's actually very realistic. Let's say I think players get paid £10,000 a week. I'd load up FM, see players on £80,000 a week and I'd come on here saying it's unrealistic. Likewise, you see agents asking for £3 million a year and criticize it for being unrealistic. How do you know it is? What knowledge are you basing this on?

Also, you say Player X is on £50,000 at a club, and you offer them £100,000. The agent only accepts £120,000 and refuses to go lower, so you get annoyed because you think there's no way an agent would deny his player the chance to earn £100,000. My question to you would be what makes you think this is unrealistic? Do you have knowledge or insider experience of agents? I'd suggest SI, who've worked in the football industry for years, are more aware of agent behaviour than you.

However, even if I admit there's a problem (which there might be, but it's not one I've seen in 25 FM11 seasons at various levels), it's an easily understandable problem. The way the game is coded is probably along the lines of "Agent with stats of x will only accept x amount". They'd have to be some minimum limit (different for different agents), but there has to be a level which the agent won't go under to make negotiations work. In your specific experience, the agent minimum request is fairly high.

Just like real life, contract negotiations and agents get in the way, and you have to turn your attention elsewhere. Real life managers have to do this all the time, and I absolutely love that the game is no longer about users buying the best players and making a world XI with Blackpool. The game's evolved and requires cleverer signings now, and requires you have multiple targets, etc etc. Far more realistic.

I have no interest in winning an argument, because this isn't an argument. This is two people who have no knowledge at all about agents arguing about whether the money they demand is realistic. Neither of us can win this, because we simply don't know. The only thing we can do is allow SI to make their own decisions, and either fix it or leave it. That's all.

[BossAsianMafia]

It could be a case of you think it's broken, but it's actually very realistic. Let's say I think players get paid £10,000 a week. I'd load up FM, see players on £80,000 a week and I'd come on here saying it's unrealistic. Likewise, you see agents asking for £3 million a year and criticize it for being unrealistic. How do you know it is? What knowledge are you basing this on?

Also, you say Player X is on £50,000 at a club, and you offer them £100,000. The agent only accepts £120,000 and refuses to go lower, so you get annoyed because you think there's no way an agent would deny his player the chance to earn £100,000. My question to you would be what makes you think this is unrealistic? Do you have knowledge or insider experience of agents? I'd suggest SI, who've worked in the football industry for years, are more aware of agent behaviour than you.

However, even if I admit there's a problem (which there might be, but it's not one I've seen in 25 FM11 seasons at various levels), it's an easily understandable problem. The way the game is coded is probably along the lines of "Agent with stats of x will only accept x amount". They'd have to be some minimum limit (different for different agents), but there has to be a level which the agent won't go under to make negotiations work. In your specific experience, the agent minimum request is fairly high.

Just like real life, contract negotiations and agents get in the way, and you have to turn your attention elsewhere. Real life managers have to do this all the time, and I absolutely love that the game is no longer about users buying the best players and making a world XI with Blackpool. The game's evolved and requires cleverer signings now, and requires you have multiple targets, etc etc. Far more realistic.

I have no interest in winning an argument, because this isn't an argument. This is two people who have no knowledge at all about agents arguing about whether the money they demand is realistic. Neither of us can win this, because we simply don't know. The only thing we can do is allow SI to make their own decisions, and either fix it or leave it. That's all.

Re: first bolded bit, that argument is very weak as SI has made plenty of mistakes in the past. By that token you could have explained away every bug in the game with "SI knows best, stfu!"

Re: second bolded bit: Except in real life I'm quite sure it isn't agent fees that is preventing Blackpool from winning the CL in 5 years. So having such an artificial barrier in game breaks the immersion factor that players have. Losing your potential signing to another club is all well and good if it's justified and transparent (e.g. offered higher status or wages, fan of club or manager), but if the player joins another club for less pay and less prestige while we cannot do anything about it because the agent fee is too high (even for the richest club in the world!), then I feel we're fully justified to say the AI is cheating.

[DamianJMcGrath]

I'm not SI are perfect, I'm saying in this specific example, SI probably have more knowledge about agent fees and behaviour than you.

Secondly, players sign for lesser clubs, for less pay and prestige all the time. Craig Bellamy turned down Premiership offers to sign for Cardiff on loan for a fraction of the wages and has said he'd play for free next year. Going back years, Paul Gascoigne turned down higher wages at Man United to sign for Tottenham because he wanted to live in London. I'm willing to bet Steven Gerrard turned down a huge boost in wages to stay at Liverpool than move to Chelsea. Nilmar turned down big offers from European sides to stay in Brazil for another season at least. Thierry Henry signed for an American side, turning down more lucrative European offers, which is an example of a player picking a less prestigious side. Charlie Adam moved to Blackpool at less money than he was on at Rangers, so if you were managing Rangers and offered him a contract and he turned it down and then signed a lesser one somewhere else, you'd be annoyed. But it happens.

FM transfers isn't just about the money offered, it's whether the player thinks he'll get a first team game. If you have 5 strikers, he might decide to accept less money to play for a side that only has 2 strikers, as it's more likely he'll play.

It's got too many variables to just say "I offered him more, but he didnt accept, therefore I'm annoyed".

It could be a case of the agent hating you, which happens in real life - even to the stage where managers hate other managers so much that they point blank refuse to do any transfers dealings at all.

The AI is not cheating, but as a human player, the potential for you to annoy an agent, or get too annoyed about missing out on your number 1 target and not have alternatives in mind is obviously higher.

[TSH]

I'm not SI are perfect, I'm saying in this specific example, SI probably have more knowledge about agent fees and behaviour than you.

Probably have more knowledge? Where do you base that on? What proof has SI given us that it has more knowledge regarding agents? Has it revealed what it used to create the feature, where it based its research?

On the other hand, we have the values of the fees paid to agenst for the whole of last year and they do not correlate to the ones used by SI.

Enough said.

[milnerpoint]

Probably have more knowledge? Where do you base that on? What proof has SI given us that it has more knowledge regarding agents? Has it revealed what it used to create the future, where it based its research?

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/blogs/football-manager-2010/Exclusive-Football-Manager-2011-blog-with-Miles-Jacobson-day-16-introducing-the-new-agents-youll-be-negotiating-with-if-you-want-to-sign-a-player-article605339.html

[DamianJMcGrath]

Probably have more knowledge? Where do you base that on? What proof has SI given us that it has more knowledge regarding agents? Has it revealed what it used to create the future, where it based its research?

On the other hand, we have the values of the fees paid to agenst for the whole of last year and they do not correlate to the ones used by SI.

Enough said.

So, SI spoke to actual agents and chief executives. Can you send me your link please TSH?

[TSH]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/blogs/football-manager-2010/Exclusive-Football-Manager-2011-blog-with-Miles-Jacobson-day-16-introducing-the-new-agents-youll-be-negotiating-with-if-you-want-to-sign-a-player-article605339.html

So because it's in a blog it's proof that they have more knowledge? lol.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/9244286.stm

Combine the above with the below:

Transfers Liverpool did ONLY in the summer 2010

Fabio Aurelio (returned)

Roy Hodgson (Manager)

Jonjo Shelvey

Raheem Sterling

Milan Jovanovic

Joe Cole

Danny Wilson

Mike Kelly (Ass Manager)

Christian Poulsen

Brad Jones

Raul Meireles

Paul Konchesky

And then combine this with the fact that a good player in FM -not a great one- can have an agent that is asking 8m.

This is my stop as this sickening defence of the game is making me lose faith in the critical ability of humans.

[BossAsianMafia]

I'm not SI are perfect, I'm saying in this specific example, SI probably have more knowledge about agent fees and behaviour than you.

Secondly, players sign for lesser clubs, for less pay and prestige all the time. Craig Bellamy turned down Premiership offers to sign for Cardiff on loan for a fraction of the wages and has said he'd play for free next year. Going back years, Paul Gascoigne turned down higher wages at Man United to sign for Tottenham because he wanted to live in London. I'm willing to bet Steven Gerrard turned down a huge boost in wages to stay at Liverpool than move to Chelsea. Nilmar turned down big offers from European sides to stay in Brazil for another season at least. Thierry Henry signed for an American side, turning down more lucrative European offers, which is an example of a player picking a less prestigious side. Charlie Adam moved to Blackpool at less money than he was on at Rangers, so if you were managing Rangers and offered him a contract and he turned it down and then signed a lesser one somewhere else, you'd be annoyed. But it happens.

FM transfers isn't just about the money offered, it's whether the player thinks he'll get a first team game. If you have 5 strikers, he might decide to accept less money to play for a side that only has 2 strikers, as it's more likely he'll play.

It's got too many variables to just say "I offered him more, but he didnt accept, therefore I'm annoyed".

It could be a case of the agent hating you, which happens in real life - even to the stage where managers hate other managers so much that they point blank refuse to do any transfers dealings at all.

The AI is not cheating, but as a human player, the potential for you to annoy an agent, or get too annoyed about missing out on your number 1 target and not have alternatives in mind is obviously higher.

Does the bolded bit apply to the OP then? Neuer is unhappy, has the human manager as his favourite personnel and is getting paid much more in a more prestigious club.

Given what we know, do you think he would have allowed his agent to scupper the deal?

You have no proof that any of the player's reasoning for moving to a less prestigious club exists in the game (e.g. likes living in London, homesick, wants a more relaxed lifestyle in USA etc.)

so from a human perspective whether a player move is successful is really down to 1) club reputation, 2) unhappiness, 3) wages, 4) squad status.

Note that agent fees should not come into this equation because the agent is supposed to act in the best interest of his client.

If it's a case of agent hating us but the player desperately wants to join us, shouldn't the player be sacking the agent?

Why would the player allow the agent to hold him ransom and stay in an inferior club at lower wages?

You obviously think that FM is much deeper game than all of us.

Using real life reasoning to justify what's happening in-game is only productive

when you have proof that such a reasoning is modeled in game.

[DamianJMcGrath]

And my argument is that you don't have proof it's not.

Sometimes agents act in the best interests of the player, and sometimes not. Rooney's agent didn't exactly do him any favours. Likewise Tevez's agent.

[milnerpoint]

Does the bolded bit apply to the OP then? Neuer is unhappy, has the human manager as his favourite personnel and is getting paid much more in a more prestigious club.

Given what we know, do you think he would have allowed his agent to scupper the deal?

You have no proof that any of the player's reasoning for moving to a less prestigious club exists in the game (e.g. likes living in London, homesick, wants a more relaxed lifestyle in USA etc.)

so from a human perspective whether a player move is successful is really down to 1) club reputation, 2) unhappiness, 3) wages, 4) squad status.

Note that agent fees should not come into this equation because the agent is supposed to act in the best interest of his client.

If it's a case of agent hating us but the player desperately wants to join us, shouldn't the player be sacking the agent?

Why would the player allow the agent to hold him ransom and stay in an inferior club at lower wages?

You obviously think that FM is much deeper game than all of us.

Using real life reasoning to justify what's happening in-game is only productive

when you have proof that such a reasoning is modeled in game.

in the OP's case do we know that Neuer is good at adapting to a new country? Iit could be that he is unhappy at his club but would preferr a move to another german club or just not to england in general, ive not personally looked at his hidden stats to back this up or not but there is the possibility of this. Even if he has the op as a fav person he may not fancy a move to his club hence the agent wants huge demands to pursuade him to move there. Its never just a case of moving to another club for money, it could be that the agent is acting in the best interests of his client due to this.

[BossAsianMafia]

And my argument is that you don't have proof it's not.

Sometimes agents act in the best interests of the player, and sometimes not. Rooney's agent didn't exactly do him any favours. Likewise Tevez's agent.

I have proof it's not because there are no in-game messages that says such and such a deal did not go through because of the real life reasons you've listed above.

You're going to have do better than that in terms of supporting your argument.

Rooney's agent thought he can get a better deal at Man City, so if I was Man City in-game and I bid for Rooney, the agent will be working WITH me (to a certain extent) to get a deal through.

[BossAsianMafia]

in the OP's case do we know that Neuer is good at adapting to a new country? Iit could be that he is unhappy at his club but would preferr a move to another german club or just not to england in general, ive not personally looked at his hidden stats to back this up or not but there is the possibility of this. Even if he has the op as a fav person he may not fancy a move to his club hence the agent wants huge demands to pursuade him to move there. Its never just a case of moving to another club for money, it could be that the agent is acting in the best interests of his client due to this.

Neuer was interested/extremely interested (I inferred that from their Unhappiness: Want to join a bigger club) in joining the OP's club, so I don't see how any of your reasoning holds.

[milnerpoint]

Neuer was interested/extremely interested (I inferred that from their Unhappiness: Want to join a bigger club) in joining the OP's club, so I don't see how any of your reasoning holds.

well wants to move to a bigger club does not necessarily mean he wants to move abroad, obviously i am just speculating and i am just offering possible reasons for the agent being difficult, and it is more than possible i am speaking out the proverbial hole in my arse but the possibilities have to be considered. As i say do we know his adaptability rating in the game and do we know he is very keen on a move to England in general? I dont know if the game mechanics factor countries or not again as i say all i am doing is offering possible reasons, not anything definite.

[TSH]

in the OP's case do we know that Neuer is good at adapting to a new country? Iit could be that he is unhappy at his club but would preferr a move to another german club or just not to england in general, ive not personally looked at his hidden stats to back this up or not but there is the possibility of this. Even if he has the op as a fav person he may not fancy a move to his club hence the agent wants huge demands to pursuade him to move there. Its never just a case of moving to another club for money, it could be that the agent is acting in the best interests of his client due to this.

well wants to move to a bigger club does not necessarily mean he wants to move abroad, obviously i am just speculating and i am just offering possible reasons for the agent being difficult, and it is more than possible i am speaking out the proverbial hole in my arse but the possibilities have to be considered. As i say do we know his adaptability rating in the game and do we know he is very keen on a move to England in general? I dont know if the game mechanics factor countries or not again as i say all i am doing is offering possible reasons, not anything definite.

Unbelievable.

[milnerpoint]

if you don't anything constructive to add then don't add anything.

[dgibson9999]

To be honest the point around the original post seems to be dealing with an agent that says "you know what I don't want my client to move but if you make it worth my while then I might reconsider". From reading through the various posts I might have overlooked it but nobody has mentioned the fact that at no point does the OP say how interested the player is in joining his club from the negotiation screen.

With regard to agent fees with the amount of money being splashed in the real world there is probably some creative accounting going on that no one outwith the inner circles will ever find out about. Taking the link from TSH about the amount spent by the Premier League on agents Chelsea bought 2 players but spent 9.2 million on fees due to some agent fees that were constructed over time. Now I don't profess to know much about it but in FM we pay an agent fee up front and that is that, however it could be in real life Chelsea have paid X amount up front and either X amount each week or agreed a fee that will be paid over the players contract.

As some one posted this is the first incarnation of agents and to be fair it seems to be more or less there, some people obviously have more issues than other. I appear to be one of the lucky ones in that I have managed to negotiate fees down and used the take it or leave option which sometimes works. I am pretty sure as the feature progresses it will evolve taking into account the feedback that has been generated.

[x42bn6]

With regard to agent fees with the amount of money being splashed in the real world there is probably some creative accounting going on that no one outwith the inner circles will ever find out about. Taking the link from TSH about the amount spent by the Premier League on agents Chelsea bought 2 players but spent 9.2 million on fees due to some agent fees that were constructed over time. Now I don't profess to know much about it but in FM we pay an agent fee up front and that is that, however it could be in real life Chelsea have paid X amount up front and either X amount each week or agreed a fee that will be paid over the players contract.

I did some analysis a while back on the agents, and the average amount spent on agents was around 12.27%.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/248159-Messi-agent-wont-let-him-come-home?p=6332451&viewfull=1#post6332451

I had to exclude some clubs who had lots of undisclosed transfer (amounts) which made the values silly.

But the amount spent on agents in that article includes things like agent fees spent on outbound transfers, and contract renewals. Reported transfer fees might also include the agent fee. In other words, 12.27% is the upper-bound for agent fees (as a proportion of transfer fee), and should be the upper-bound in-game too.

Yes, some "super-agents" may be able to demand large amounts, such as 15-20%, but there are few agents who can do that - Zahavi, Joorabchian and Raiola come to mind. This means that every once in a blue moon, you should meet a truly annoying agent - but only once every blue moon. The average agent should probably be asking for around 10% maximum - anything more and the player should seriously consider firing the agent.

The agent should act in his client's best interests but he of course does not work for free - he charges a premium. But the moment this premium becomes too high, the client will consider switching agent, in the same way the average person goes to many agencies to look for a house, to see who has the best value for service.