ttf and real life

[drevil1969]

How close is fms tactically to real life?

Ok in ttf (which the tactics creator is based on) you can set your team up to play as Man Utd. (look for the appendix with ttf if you want to know how) How close to real life is that set up? im guessing pretty close. But is that tactic purely for man utd or can it be applied with any team?

Ok now i play as West Ham. Now would i best suited to try and set up the zola way, or man utd way, or another way altogether? using ttf i tried playing the steve bruce way and found it quite solid but not attacking enough and felt it was a bit boring (,much like bruce himself, maybe that tactic was based on him lol)

What im really asking is do you set a team up how you think it should be in real life? Or do you set a team up how it will work in the game? And if a combination of both what do combine to get the best tactic?

[Tubey84]

TT&F stands for Tactical Theories & Frameworks.

I bold that bit as it's critical. It doesn't mean if you throw the ideas in TT&F directly onto a tactic and just click Play it'll produce results - what TT&F does is provide a "template" for which you can use to try and understand how role theory effects what players do on the pitch.

To get proper results and have your team playing a certain way, you should incorporate the TT&F ideas by learning them and putting your knowledge into your own tactics.

[Mitja]

with the old slider way you can recreate real life tactics pretty close with little knowldege (how sliders work) and imagination.

with TC tactics that's not possible.

[Cleon]

with the old slider way you can recreate real life tactics pretty close with little knowldege (how sliders work) and imagination.

with TC tactics that's not possible.

I disagree and think it's the other way around.

To get a real life tactic working by using the classic sliders, then you need to have a good knowledge of how the ME works to recreate it. I think the TC makes it a lot easier to recreate RL tactics.

[Mitja]

classical system tactics were much more individual and every manager had his own football style (which was set in editor by researchers). the TC tactics are general and global.

for example let's take a look at Attacking (or any other) strategy created by TC which is used like AI uses it (without changing anything manualy). no metter which team plays this Attacking strategy, the tactic will be more or less the same. it can be Barca, Man Utd, Steaua or BSN team. the mentality slider will always be at x, the tempo slider will always be at x, time wasting also, width also, d-line also, etc etc.. I don't see much resemblence to real life here..

[Cleon]

classical system tactics were much more individual and every manager had his own football style (which was set in editor by researchers). the TC tactics are general and global.

for example let's take a look at Attacking (or any other) strategy created by TC which is used like AI uses it (without changing anything manualy). no metter which team plays this Attacking strategy, the tactic will be more or less the same. it can be Barca, Man Utd, Steaua or BSN team. the mentality slider will always be at x, the tempo slider will always be at x, time wasting also, width also, d-line also, etc etc.. I don't see much resemblence to real life here..

Yeah I'm aware of how it works. But you claimed people could make real life tactic without needing knowledge of how the sliders work (classic). Which is what I'm disagreeing with. People were confused by the sliders and they complicated things, that's why we have the TC now. The TC makes it asier to creat RL tactic for the very reasons you mentioned. Everything is set and if someone wants to create an attacking formation that resembles Man utd, Barcelona or Chelsea they have more chance of achieving it by having little knowledge of the game.

I like how you've changed though, last year you moaned about how confusing the sliders were and complicated to get working how you want. Now you claim you can do RL tactics with them easy and little knowledge lol

[wwfan]

Not to be an arse, but as soon as people talk about slider settings and then compare them with real life, the argument falls apart.

TT&F and the TC outline concepts that can then be adjusted to change playing patterns. While agreeing that the AI isn't doing this well enough, to argue that current play is more generic than in previous FMs falls far short of the mark. Previously, there was very little difference between players in terms of their role instructions. Everybody tended to have the same settings, no matter their position. Now we have wide ranging possibilities.

In previous FMs, we might have had ten team settings that were variable, with everything else the same, no matter the manager. Now we have hundreds of variables in terms of role possibilities, which operate within a huge number of strategy/philosophy combinations. Ideally, the team options would be far more sophisticated than currently, but to argue they are less realistic or sophisticated than previous settings completely fails to understand what has changed. Now AI tactics are based on concepts rather than the tools and team settings of the old system. I'm sure it will improve in the future, but it is already far more varied than what we had previously.

[Cleon]

Not to be an arse, but as soon as people talk about slider settings and then compare them with real life, the argument falls apart.

TT&F and the TC outline concepts that can then be adjusted to change playing patterns. While agreeing that the AI isn't doing this well enough, to argue that current play is more generic than in previous FMs falls far short of the mark. Previously, there was very little difference between players in terms of their role instructions. Everybody tended to have the same settings, no matter their position. Now we have wide ranging possibilities.

In previous FMs, we might have had ten team settings that were variable, with everything else the same, no matter the manager. Now we have hundreds of variables in terms of role possibilities, which operate within a huge number of strategy/philosophy combinations. Ideally, the team options would be far more sophisticated than currently, but to argue they are less realistic or sophisticated than previous settings completely fails to understand what has changed. Now AI tactics are based on concepts rather than the tools and team settings of the old system. I'm sure it will improve in the future, but it is already far more varied than what we had previously.

I think that is one of the main reasons I'm enjoying this game more than any other version since CM03/04. It's because teams you play now play differently and it can be hard to adapt now when facing them, which I like. Another reason is the endless possiblities we have when creating tactics. Like you said before we had 10 different settings. For example now I can make 20 (just a figure off topf of head) different 442's and all would play differently. Before that wasn't possible and after say 3 I'd have used all the different variables available to me.

I honestly believe the TC makes it easier for the user to attempt to create their favoured RL formations though. Some of the discussions that are over on FMB only back that point up.

Anyways I best stop talking about the TC people will begin to think I'm a massive fanboi of it:D

[Mitja]

I like how you've changed though, last year you moaned about how confusing the sliders were and complicated to get working how you want. Now you claim you can do RL tactics with them easy and little knowledge lol

lol yes. they're still confusing though, very few people know what does what actually. and TC is a nice little mask...

still, when trying to recreate real life tactics with TC, it's not hard to figure out that they don't resemble real life football too much.

[Mitja]

Not to be an arse, but as soon as people talk about slider settings and then compare them with real life, the argument falls apart.

not sure what you're trying to say.

TT&F and the TC outline concepts that can then be adjusted to change playing patterns. While agreeing that the AI isn't doing this well enough, to argue that current play is more generic than in previous FMs falls far short of the mark. Previously, there was very little difference between players in terms of their role instructions. Everybody tended to have the same settings, no matter their position. Now we have wide ranging possibilities.

the role/duty system is exellant stuff, I hope we will see even more roles and other improvement here

as for comparing classical system with TC, team styles were much more individualy defined by manager tendencies in classical system.

[Cleon]

as for comparing classical system with TC, team styles were much more individualy defined by manager tendencies in classical system.

They still can be when using the TC. The way I see the TC is it allows you to pick the shape, philosophy and style you want to play. Once you've done that, then make a few changes to the settings by using the 'advanced' tab.

[Mitja]

just want you to know that I don't hate TC

the OP asked about recreating real life tactics and all I did is answered, it's better (you can do it more into details) to use the old system for it..

[wwfan]

I think the this thread highlights some interesting problems with the game.

If we look at the tactical creator versus sliders, we can go thought by following though processes when trying to set up the Milan way of playing.

Tactical Creator

Milan play with a flat defence behind a deep-lying playmaker who is in turn protected by two ball-winning midfielders. Up front they have a lot of creativity and flair on the wings, with the wide players having a tendency to cut inside. Traditionally, they have played a poacher type player as a lone forward, but they also have more creative options. They generally play somewhat direct football for an Italian side and traditionally press pretty aggressively. At times, they can be very cynical.

Sliders

Milan play a wide (17), creative (12), direct (16), pressing (18), fastish (14), cynical (Timewasting = 15) 4-3-3.

As you can see, the former really helps in working out how to set up a team, whereas the latter just sets some basic parameters. The TC allows for a lot of flexibility in creativity and timewasting in its philosophy and strategy settings. It also allows for some (not yet enough) flexibility in width, pressing, tempo and directness.

However, it does have some flexibility and the creator employs it. It also has far more flexibility in how the team is structured in roles, duties, tactical and strategic shifts etc. The key element, for me, is to further advance the process of thinking in the former manner and remove slider thinking from the equation. To do that the creator needs to be better explained and more sophisticated.

However, it is still far more flexible, creative and sophisticated than the old AI method of building tactics. It just doesn't operate on a 20 point scale, which might make it seem less so.

[Mitja]

Tactical Creator

Milan play with a flat defence behind a deep-lying playmaker who is in turn protected by two ball-winning midfielders. Up front they have a lot of creativity and flair on the wings, with the wide players having a tendency to cut inside. Traditionally, they have played a poacher type player as a lone forward, but they also have more creative options. They generally play somewhat direct football for an Italian side and traditionally press pretty aggressively. At times, they can be very cynical.

that's defenetly the way forward.

[phnompenhandy]

not sure what you're trying to say.

He's saying the very idea of 'realistic slider settings' is an oxymoron.

[SFraser]

As you can see, the former really helps in working out how to set up a team, whereas the latter just sets some basic parameters. The TC allows for a lot of flexibility in creativity and timewasting in its philosophy and strategy settings. It also allows for some (not yet enough) flexibility in width, pressing, tempo and directness.

However, it does have some flexibility and the creator employs it. It also has far more flexibility in how the team is structured in roles, duties, tactical and strategic shifts etc. The key element, for me, is to further advance the process of thinking in the former manner and remove slider thinking from the equation. To do that the creator needs to be better explained and more sophisticated.

I don't think anyone can argue against what the TC now brings to the game, but equally I don't think the powerful customisation options available through the traditional system is something the game can afford to lose.

Personally I think some form of "Role Creator" working with the new system to allow that huge flexibility without compromising the interaction with Touchline Shouts would be something I would like to see and be quite satisfied with using. Being able to customise roles without losing that ability to make changes during the game is a big deal for the game in my opinion. It is something that is noticeably lacking in FM10 for me.

[dz47]

I don't think anyone can argue against what the TC now brings to the game, but equally I don't think the powerful customisation options available through the traditional system is something the game can afford to lose.

Personally I think some form of "Role Creator" working with the new system to allow that huge flexibility without compromising the interaction with Touchline Shouts would be something I would like to see and be quite satisfied with using. Being able to customise roles without losing that ability to make changes during the game is a big deal for the game in my opinion. It is something that is noticeably lacking in FM10 for me.

i second this

[drevil1969]

I have started a good debate i think. I think both systems work.

I personaly was someone who found it difficult to make my own tactics. My biggest frustration however was reading about other peoples and how successful they were being and trying to emulate them and failing. That really got to me. But with the ttf i have understood alot more and feel that im not just moving a slider here or there to make a difference (not actually not what a difference i was making i should add) Im looking at it instead of 1 does this and 20 does this im seeing it is as i want to play this style of football and this is the balance etc i need.

[michelco]

Do the AI go into the advance tab and make changes? I.E do the managers apply tempo, width, d-line changes according to their own preferences? If not then Mitja do have a point in saying;

classical system tactics were much more individual and every manager had his own football style (which was set in editor by researchers). the TC tactics are general and global.

[Mitja]

AI will make some changes to default tactics in this manner: http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1610/76007434.jpg depending on editor attributes. how much it adds to more personal tactics, it's up to each person to decide for himself. imo not much.

problem with AI tatcics is that they produce different type of football than what they should. defensive/low mentaility tactics, produce posessional and time wasting tatcics. attacking/high mentality strategies produce very rushed football, fast direct, almost counter-attacking.