Creating a Tactic – From the Beginning

[Cleon]

It would be the same process no matter what side I was. It's all the same principles and logic.

[mrdorf]

It would be the same process no matter what side I was. It's all the same principles and logic.

Fair enough. As I've been moaning a lot on here about my team. I'm finding it near on impossible to win. It seems to really advance, you have to know more about the match engine. I'll keep plugging away.

[Catbreath]

Cleon, I'm with the guy above me. I simply can't win with this game by creating my own tactics. They just don't work. I have also downloaded other peoples tactics and do fine for a few games then the team just nose dives. Yes, this is from the new season on, no changing tactics midseason.

I can somewhat understand what you are talking about when you have great players like Liverpool. Other folks come in with Man U and Milan, well, you better win with these teams is all I can think. Now most of these people should try doing this with FC Dordrecht or the like and see how they fare.

When you say "it's all the same principles and logic" that doesn't really help me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I gave you an American football game and told you just use the pulling guard more often and have the fullback chip the defensive end, would you know what the hell I'm talking about? hell no, most likely not. And then somewhat explained it then said just use those principles, you would be clueless.

So I guess, is there no hope for someone like me, who has the Fox Soccer Channel, watches football, but simply does not understand the finer points of tactics.

If my left defensive back has poor ratings. How the hell am I supposed to know what to do in the first place. I am just becoming more and more lost in this game. Funny thing or maybe not so funny is that I have been playing since Champ Man 01. I love the game but the fun is quickly fading as I simply can not win with this version. I am not looking to dominate Europe every year, but to at least play well and win sometimes would make the game a lot more interesting.

Currently Portsmouth, started out 6-1-1. Then I went 8 games without a win and have scored 2 goals. Now how can you do so well, not change tactics, then have your team all of a sudden not even look like they have used the tactic before.

On the verge of just leaving this game. I have a ****** enough job, don't need to come home and scream at the computer cause my players cant do a tactic that was created. Sorry, just getting ****y with this game. I know some people are going to scoff at my lack of tactic knowledge, fine. But the game should be playable for even beginners who don't completely understand every little thing about football.

[mrdorf]

Cleon, I'm with the guy above me. I simply can't win with this game by creating my own tactics. They just don't work. I have also downloaded other peoples tactics and do fine for a few games then the team just nose dives. Yes, this is from the new season on, no changing tactics midseason.

I can somewhat understand what you are talking about when you have great players like Liverpool. Other folks come in with Man U and Milan, well, you better win with these teams is all I can think. Now most of these people should try doing this with FC Dordrecht or the like and see how they fare.

When you say "it's all the same principles and logic" that doesn't really help me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I gave you an American football game and told you just use the pulling guard more often and have the fullback chip the defensive end, would you know what the hell I'm talking about? hell no, most likely not. And then somewhat explained it then said just use those principles, you would be clueless.

So I guess, is there no hope for someone like me, who has the Fox Soccer Channel, watches football, but simply does not understand the finer points of tactics.

If my left defensive back has poor ratings. How the hell am I supposed to know what to do in the first place. I am just becoming more and more lost in this game. Funny thing or maybe not so funny is that I have been playing since Champ Man 01. I love the game but the fun is quickly fading as I simply can not win with this version. I am not looking to dominate Europe every year, but to at least play well and win sometimes would make the game a lot more interesting.

Currently Portsmouth, started out 6-1-1. Then I went 8 games without a win and have scored 2 goals. Now how can you do so well, not change tactics, then have your team all of a sudden not even look like they have used the tactic before.

On the verge of just leaving this game. I have a ****** enough job, don't need to come home and scream at the computer cause my players cant do a tactic that was created. Sorry, just getting ****y with this game. I know some people are going to scoff at my lack of tactic knowledge, fine. But the game should be playable for even beginners who don't completely understand every little thing about football.

I have to agree with you on that one. Unless you know the match engine and how 2 notches left is better than 3 notches left on the sliders, then you're screwed.

[heliu5]

Striker

It’s important he drifts wide and pulls the defenders with him. If he doesn’t do that than it’s a waste of time using inside forwards as the middle would be too crowded.

Now that the settings are sorted it’s all down to what I see happening in games now. Any future changes will be because of what I see happening.

Cleon, can you please re-upload the picture? No sign of it here

[TBell95]

i second that Cleon would it be possible for you to upload it again it doesnt seem to be working?

[Gorgut]

Cleon, could you advise on how to set up my team which is very well stocked in midfield, but lacks any wingers. It seems that the Liverpool and Arsneal tactics discussed here using wing players (or cut-in inside fwrds)

I'm using At Madrid in 2nd Season

GK Asenjo

DR Rafinha

DL Juan Vargas

DC Pique

DC Phil Jaglieka

DMC Miguel Veloso

MC Joao Moutinho

MC Felipe Melo

AMC Sergio Aguero

ST Adriano

ST Diego Forlan

I'm facing a similar problem with my Birmingham team...I haven't played much without wingers so I don't really know how to set it up properly.

I've tried several different approaches but looks like I'm missing something.

My team is:

Playing in my midfield with Gago as Deeplying Playmaker (defending), Isla as Ball Winning (support), Ramires as B2B and Vart as Trequartista.

Well, any tips would be appreciated

[Cleon]

Have a read of the Brazilian Fluid System thread I did, it's half way down the forum.

[cragswfc]

your amc how did he do for goals?

[Cleon]

your amc how did he do for goals?

Check the team screenshot on the first page..

[mikcheck]

Can someone please put screenshot of torres instructions ? Because i'ts the only one is missing. thank you

[grimness]

[mikcheck]

Thanks alot

[mikcheck]

Cleon in you liverpool game did you use shouts every game ?

[shaunboh]

This is amazing, I have been playing since CM98 and I create a tactic and just tinker with a few settings. I have never been as in depth as you are. Then again I am from NZ(GO the ALLBLACKs) don't fully understand football tactics IRL. And I never ever watch games I just set it and go. But this has really opened my eyes as to the potential of this amazing game.

[LlamaZA]

When you say "it's all the same principles and logic" that doesn't really help me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I gave you an American football game and told you just use the pulling guard more often and have the fullback chip the defensive end, would you know what the hell I'm talking about? hell no, most likely not. And then somewhat explained it then said just use those principles, you would be clueless.

Quoting because I think it sums up some of the problems in this thread and to be honest I must say I'm very disappointed. I saw the thread name, and then I saw the author and I had high expectations that you'd be sharing with us some insights. Instead there's not much to it. I appreciate that you're answering questions through the thread which are helpful.

Cleon - please take the following as constructive criticism:

As the majority of users seem to be using the tactics creator I’ll probably be showing how to create a tactic using that.

In fact I’ll only show you how to create it in the tactics creator. You can then just switch it to classic tactics if you wish to use that way. However for this experiment I used only the tactics creator as it was much simpler.

You don't do this, if you were doing this you'd showing us step by step how to use the Tactics Creator (first formation, the roles, then mentality, etc). I'm not necessarily saying you must use the creator, but if you say you'll show us how, then you should at least do that. I get the feeling you don't use the creator per se, since you focus on the players and there position rather than build a tactic and then try get the players to fit it.

Post 2 is the most informative of all the posts, but even there its a little too nondescript. If I had to summarise it would be; formation doesn't determine style and thus any team can play any formation, the key is the use of mentality, philosophy, roaming and creativity settings.

As you’ll see Liverpool lacks any real wide players, so I am limited to what I can do unless I bring new players in.

Liverpool has a lot of attacking midfielders so it makes sense to utilise them in some way

And then you make wide 4231 formation? with one AM and two wide players? I'm not commenting so much on the formation or whether its appropriate, this is more one of where you've reached a conclusion that is in contradiction to your propositions. My point here is that you aren't relating your thought process to your conclusion, why have you gone for a 4231 (wide) over a 4231 (narrow).

Although they lack wide players if I set the outer attacking midfielders up as inside forwards that shouldn’t be much of an issue.

This isn't a reason, its a work around. It almost seems like you want to play 4231 (wide) (i.e. personal tactical preference over player specific tactics). It's not clear whether you design tactics based on your team or do you have a tactic in mind and see if your team will fit that. Neither is right or wrong, but I'm not sure from your post how you approach it or how this affects your decision making.

As I plan on going attacking then it makes a lot of sense to play with a high defensive line so the gap between defence and midfield isn’t too large. It’s important we win the ball high up the pitch and put pressure on the opposition. Although I plan on been attacking I also want to retain possession and because I use short passing a slow approach seems the logical way to start off. Focus passing through the middle is due to me using the attacking midfielder’s right and left as inside forwards. So makes sense to play through the middle.

Quite an interesting discussion point. When to use pressing, high lines, tempo relative to each other. I think this could be expanded, but the gist of the discussion can be made, although I think for a guide like this I would suggest that you expand on these points to assist people as this one of the core issues of creating tactics and getting your tactic to be consistent with itself.

On the players specific side, your descriptions are unhelpful for creating my own tactic examples of text I found problematic:

They are just average full backs I’ve only changed their throw-in instructions.

As you can see this is my stopper.

This defender is set up as the covering defender

These don't add to the discussion, you should elaborate as to why Fullback and not Wingback. What factors you would consider in choosing between the two and additionally what instructions you'd change under what circumstances (poor crossing, marking, stamina, pace etc).

Examples of good descriptions:

No doubt this one will raise a few questions. Especially as I have him set up on defensive mentality. I do this so he won’t be occupying the same space as my striker. By sitting deep he’ll be able to get on the end of any half arsed clearances or headers made by the opposition. He’ll also run from deep if he gets the chance and sees a good opportunity. Because he sits back he’s also hard to mark and pick up. He should also win the ball high up the pitch and start attacks

It’s important he drifts wide and pulls the defenders with him. If he doesn’t do that than it’s a waste of time using inside forwards as the middle would be too crowded

The second quote is especially interesting as it creates a discussion around how the players interact with each other and how that is important for the design of your tactic. The first one I like because it opens up an interesting discussion around mentalities and using them to slightly adjust the positioning of players.

You then go on to a discussion about adjusting tactics over the season, which I'm not going to discuss right now. But I think you make some good points on analysing the play (and I think you do a better job in your other thread).

As an example of how I'd consider an approach to creating a tactic using Liverpool in FM12, I first look at the players. Who are my star players (Gerrard, Suarez) and who are my quality players (Lucas, Kuyt, Downing, Enrique, Johnson, and a host of CBs). Next is to determine where my star players play best (I feel you should work around getting the best out of your best players and let the team work around that - see United's change in style as they went through the Cantona, Beckham, Ruud, Ronaldo, Rooney era's).

Interestingly Liverpool in FM12 almost picks a 4231 formation as described in your OP by placing the top players in their best positions and roles - the only issue being that Suarez and Gerrard both want to play as Trequartistas, it then becomes a matter of looking at the shape of the team and the roles around them for what you want the players to do - both players could fit other roles quite well so Advanced Fwd and Deep Lying Fwd are both options for Suarez, and Gerrard could be nearly any AMC role available.

Once I finish that process I'd look at the balance of the formation: Ball winning midfielder next to a deep lying playmaker behind 4 attacking players, a nice balance. Wing back on the same side as the Advanced Playmaker and a Fullback with a Wing - great (since Wingbacks are there to cover for wingless formations by attacking as deeper lying Wingers on attack - Alves and Johnson are great examples both play with right wingers that like to drift in - Messi and Kuyt/Henderson/Gerrard).

Anyway this post is getting too long now, I just hope that you take some of what I say to heart to help out those who have little idea about building tactics a bit more, and to share some additional insights to those of us that are more experienced but that have may missed something. You have the experience and knowledge to make a lot more of this post and I think you could make this a lot more insightful than it currently is.

[jim morrow]

Okay Cleon, but you don't explain how to choose Philosophy and Starting Strategie depending from your players attributes, and it's the two most important things to do when you begin to create a tactic.

[Cleon]

Quoting because I think it sums up some of the problems in this thread and to be honest I must say I'm very disappointed. I saw the thread name, and then I saw the author and I had high expectations that you'd be sharing with us some insights. Instead there's not much to it. I appreciate that you're answering questions through the thread which are helpful.

Did you read the date of the thread? And see when it was created? I have a busy life and not everything gets finished. Around the time this thread was created I was recovering from almost been stabbed to death if I remember right.

This thread is almost 2 years old lol, you think I'm going to waste time discussing something I no longer haave access too? There was more to this thread but when the forum was moved over to the new ones half got pruned by Kris who did the update thing for the forum. As did the majority of helpful threads from the same time.

I take all critism on board but for something nearly 2 years old? Please I have better things to do in life

[LlamaZA]

This would be the problem of thread-necromancy then

Sorry, didn't check the dates of all the posts - only realise now that most of the responses are over a year old.

I think my points over the OP still stand, but I can understand that perhaps the thread died historically for whatever reasons and hasn't been updated as it should've been.

I do think this topic is important though, especially in light of all the tactic downloaders who are missing out on what I consider the most interesting part of the game (designing and tweaking my own tactics). While some don't enjoy it, I think others have an issue of not knowing where to start and a helpful thread on the topic could be invaluable. I'll see what I can do time permitting.

Anyway, apologies for the inconvenience, I just read threads as they appear and clearly the necromancy made this appear more current than it should've been see.

As you were then.

[Cleon]

No worries, I'm not even sure why this thread was reopened as it was closed because there was an updated version. The forum switch over really hit the tactics forum hard and lots of quality threads were all deleted by accident. A full 3 years of helpful guides by Sfrazer, myself, wwfan, Millie, Justified, Buxton and Rashidi all lost