*official* 2008 us election thread

[Andrew K]

How about we let the IRS be the final arbiter. If it isn't part of your compensation it shouldn't be taxed, right? Good luck attempting to get overtime hours, 4+ weeks paid vacation, and 401k money tax free.

[Daaaaave]

still waiting

[LokedOut420]

How about we let the IRS be the final arbiter. If it isn't part of your compensation it shouldn't be taxed, right? Good luck attempting to get overtime hours, 4+ weeks paid vacation, and 401k money tax free.

End of year bonuses are also taxed, so should that be factored into my hourly wage as well?

[Kizzak]

why is it that UAW workers deserve to earn more than public school teachers?

[Daaaaave]

is the answer to pay one union employee less or the other one more? maybe andrew will argue that we should pay our public school teachers so cheaply, but not me.

[bflaff]

There really aren't enough illegal immigrants in this world for all the jobs we need them for.

Too many bloodsucking Americans making it hard to turn a profit.

[Jason the Yank]

End of year bonuses are also taxed, so should that be factored into my hourly wage as well?

What's an "end of year bonus"? [/employee in dying industry]

[Kizzak]

I'm simply asking, why should the 'average' UAW worker earn over the median wage in the country?

Is the work really that highly skilled in relation to the rest of the economy?

[Andrew K]

End of year bonuses are also taxed, so should that be factored into my hourly wage as well?

It should be, if you are dividing your total compensation by the hours worked. It's silly to judge somebody's earnings on their base compensation, especially in a benefits loaded job. School teachers, the democrats other protected work class, claim they don't make much money but when you figure in that they have 3+ months of vacation time plus a great pension plan that allows them to retire far earlier than other professions, it is suddenly not such a poorly paying job.

It's as if every stock broker in the world makes $25k a year.

[Gordon Comstock]

teachers overpaid too

[Kill Rock Stars]

god he's loathsome

[Jason the Yank]

School teachers, the democrats other protected work class, claim they don't make much money but when you figure in that they have 3+ months of vacation time

The summer months are usually spent in training and other education that allows them to receive step increases.

plus a great pension plan that allows them to retire far earlier than other professions, it is suddenly not such a poorly paying job.

tbf, probably everyone should go to a defined contribution plan.

And actually, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with 30 middle schoolers.

[Andrew K]

In the Dallas ISD the starting salary is $42.5k a year. Teachers have a week or two of workshops at the end of school and another week or two before the school season starts. That still leaves 6 plus weeks open. My teacher friend had tons of earning opportunities throughout the summer, doing camps, workshops, and seminars. She pulled in at least another $10k, which Dave would say shouldn't count. And also would get two weeks off during Christmas, a spring break, and most national holidays. Those are all benefits and certainly factor into the desirability of the job. A lot of people choose greater time off over a higher salary.

[Andrew K]

god he's loathsome

You've always been the worst sort of +1 poster.

[Gordon Comstock]

$50,000 plus unpaid vacations is a lot to you? for what should be a 60+ hour a week job?

if you go to law school and apply yourself, you can find (or could find, rather, I don't know what it's like this year) $150,000 offers with ease.

[Andrew K]

In the real world $50,000 a year is a nice middle class income.

[Gordon Comstock]

so our teachers should be earning a nice middle class income and nothing more?

[Gordon Comstock]

let's say that teachers work 60 hours week for... 44 weeks out of the year. that's 2640 hours a year. I don't care what sort of pension they're getting - teachers are grossly underpaid.

[Kizzak]

In the Dallas ISD the starting salary is $42.5k a year. Teachers have a week or two of workshops at the end of school and another week or two before the school season starts. That still leaves 6 plus weeks open. My teacher friend had tons of earning opportunities throughout the summer, doing camps, workshops, and seminars. She pulled in at least another $10k, which Dave would say shouldn't count. And also would get two weeks off during Christmas, a spring break, and most national holidays. Those are all benefits and certainly factor into the desirability of the job. A lot of people choose greater time off over a higher salary.

That's just Dallas

Fully certified teachers with a bachelor's degree (minimum qualification) get a 32.6k starting salary

You don't hit 42.5k until 11 years of service

[Andrew K]

Teachers don't work 60 hours a week on average and their work year is more like 40 weeks.

[Kizzak]

oh and a teacher in GA doesn't hit 50k unless they spend time getting a post-bachelor's degree

[Gordon Comstock]

literally unbelievable it's that low.

it makes me wonder why anyone goes into teaching. I'm going to find fulfillment and financial comfort (or, I was planning to before having to become a subsistence farmer due to Bush/rascally minorities taking out subprime loans)

[Gordon Comstock]

Teachers don't work 60 hours a week on average and their work year is more like 40 weeks.

teachers are at school from 7 to 4 five days a week. take an hour out for lunch and we're at 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. 40 hours in the building.

I guarantee you paperwork/grading/lesson planning/making sure Tameesha has a dental appointment takes up 20 hours a week.

[Andrew K]

That's just Dallas

Fully certified teachers with a bachelor's degree (minimum qualification) get a 32.6k starting salary

You don't hit 42.5k until 11 years of service

There are cost of living differences, of course, but anywhere you go a teacher makes a middle class wage. Has there been a time in the US when a teacher was paid higher than a middle class wage?

[Gordon Comstock]

relative to other opportunities in the private sector, teaching as a profession is underpaid.

now that's that settled, what about those Hawks?

[Kizzak]

There are cost of living differences, of course, but anywhere you go a teacher makes a middle class wage. Has there been a time in the US when a teacher was paid higher than a middle class wage?

How do you define a middle class wage?

[bflaff]

Teachers in the suburbs get paid a ton, even right out of college fwiw.

But how about we all agree that whatever we're doing in education, it's not working as well as it should.

[Jason the Yank]

Some of the smaller towns in Montana have teachers starting at around $19K

For Class I schools (the bigger ones like Billings, Missoula, etc.), they start around $25K.

The average across all schools is about $38,000.

[Kill Rock Stars]

You've always been the worst sort of +1 poster.

which is infinitely preferable to being a loathsome caricature such as yourself. i've met several people like you, and none of them had a chin

[Jason the Yank]

senate's failure to pass aid deal for automakers angers metro detroiters

nathan hurst and christina rogers / the detroit news

detroit -- for many residents of the nation's most fiscally-challenged state, the senate republicans' shutout of a big three bailout wasn't just a decision to leave michigan's largest employers out in the cold of the worst economic downturn in decades.

It was a solid slap in the face, a kick to the shins for a state that's already down.

George darany, owner of the three au bon pain restaurant franchises downtown, said he was shocked and dismayed by the senate's decision late thursday evening.

The 49-year-old business owner, who lives in dearborn, said that several years ago, he decided to come back to the city to open up the new restaurants, including one abutting campus martius, to support the city's then-budding turnaround.

Now, he said, "things are just terrible."

"we had some momentum, and then you get the mayor, the governor and now the federal government," darany said. "it's like we're getting pounded upon."

reaction from other metro detroiters ran an emotional gamut -- betrayal, anger, disgust -- akin to that of a seriously scorned lover.

Some even vowed vindication.

Kathy metevier-rizza, a 49-year old legal aide, said she was outraged senators didn't respond to fervent pleas from government, union and corporate officials to give detroit's beleaguered auto industry a chance for survival.

Her sense of outrage was fueled by the government's willingness to offer a hand to the nation's financial institutions, but rebuff requests for a much smaller loan from detroit automakers.

"it just irritates me," said metevier-rizza.

Her husband has worked at ford motor corp. For nearly 20 years and her family has deep ties to the auto industry. she said the nation's seeming indifference to michigan's plight won't go unremembered.

"next time they need us, we're not going to be there for them, metevier-rizza said.

mike presley, a 35-year-old auto engineer from plymouth, suspected the lack of help was a ploy to undermine the united auto workers union.

"i think it was a biased decision and very upsetting," presley said over lunch at a burger king in rochester hills. "the guys from the south are trying to break the auto union and they are trying to make it a level playing field, but that's the problem. It's not a level playing field."

presley also wondered why american lawmakers wouldn't give the big three a hand when foreign governments are helping their own auto manufacturers.

"every other country supports their auto industry," he said, "but we aren't supporting ours."

Shaping up as a Michigan v. The South feud:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081212/OPINION04/812120329/1118/RSS

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/COLUMNIST17/812120329/-1/NEWS30

Civil War Mk. II \o/

[Jason the Yank]

Chrysler meets with hundreds of reprensetatives from parts suppliers: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/AUTO01/812120452

A run on suppliers changing the terms of payment, or refusal to ship without advance payment, can be the catalyst to force an automaker into bankruptcy, Neil De Koker, chief executive officer of the Original Equipment Suppliers Association, told The Detroit News this week as panic mounted about the future of the Detroit Big Three after Congress failed to pass a bill to give them emergency funding.

The automaker has not had to take such a drastic action as file for Chapter 11, nor are any plants down because of an inability to get parts, Morgan said. The companies at the meeting were not aggressive or in revolt, but appeared to appreciate the opportunity to have their questions answered, Halprin said.

Suppliers still demanding changes to their payment arrangements are being dealt with independently, Morgan said. They represent a small minority of the supply base.

[Jason the Yank]

Apparently the Gibraltar Trade Center has cancelled Jim Bunning's autograph session in retaliation.

[Jason the Yank]

Canadians willing to chip in on a rescue package: http://www.freep.com/article/20081212/BUSINESS01/81212135/1118/RSS

[Daaaaave]

I'll just restate, amidst all this *******, that the primary root of this exchange on was whether an average reader would assume that a figure of "so-and-so makes X/hr" would be base hourly compensation or total gross income including all pension and benefit dollars added.

because I guarantee you that if you ask ANYBODY what they make an hour, they're going to give you the former and not the latter.

which is why I'm still waiting for andrew to send me any listing of a job quote listing a per hour wage that includes benefits and pension in the total.

[zeusbheld]

because I guarantee you that if you ask ANYBODY what they make an hour, they're going to give you the former and not the latter.

ABSOLUTELY.

that *should* be obvious to anyone who's ever done real work (the kind where you lift stuff, use tools, etc).

[Jason the Yank]

Flint Mayor Don Williamson said Friday in a speech at city hall that "the senators who voted against the plan voted against America."

"I am calling on all the senators in Washington that voted against the citizens of America to quit, hang your head in shame and get out of Washington," he said. "Jesus Christ had his Judas and America manufacturing has the U.S. senators who voted against this plan and the American people."

Hours before the collapse, Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson was with Granholm and other leaders in the Detroit suburb of Southfield to talk about their efforts to respond rapidly to residents and businesses affected by the automotive and economic meltdowns.

The outspoken Republican minced no words about GOP lawmakers in Washington who rejected emergency loans. He described them as "ruthless" and argued that leaders need "to overcome them."

"The arsenal of democracy is under attack by the arsenal of hypocrisy," he said.

http://www.record-eagle.com/statenews/local_story_348093524.html

It just grinds you, doesn't it?

I mean that a handful of senators from former Confederate states could so summarily sign a death warrant for the Michigan economy. A bunch of self-serving Republicans who will now go around blaming the United Auto Workers for killing the auto industry rescue plan.

Convenient excuse for something they never had any intention of passing. It's just a coincidence, of course, that they all come from states with non-union auto plants owned by the foreign competitors of GM, Ford and Chrysler.

A former colleague who grew up in the Deep South once told me, "Where I come from, there's not much difference between union and Union Army."

Certainly this defeat was payback for the UAW's traditional support of Democratic candidates. But maybe it ran even deeper, back to 1861 when President Abraham Lincoln exclaimed "Thank God for Michigan!" as 798 men from this state arrived in Washington to defend it against advancing southern troops early in the Civil War.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081213/COL32/812130322/1081

[Jason the Yank]

http://www.boycottalabamanow.com/

[zeusbheld]

with all the furor over the auto industry, the appointment of Daschle as Health Czar has been totally overlooked. another benefit of putting Hil at SoS is that she's nowhere near healthcare. healthcare was the one of the few areas where O's and Hil's actual policy proposals differed if i recall.

[Jason the Yank]

Countdown claims to have a Republican memo that explicitly recommends rejection of the bridge loans to screw the UAW: http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/12/1713569.aspx

[Andrew K]

I'll just restate, amidst all this *******, that the primary root of this exchange on was whether an average reader would assume that a figure of "so-and-so makes X/hr" would be base hourly compensation or total gross income including all pension and benefit dollars added.

because I guarantee you that if you ask ANYBODY what they make an hour, they're going to give you the former and not the latter.

which is why I'm still waiting for andrew to send me any listing of a job quote listing a per hour wage that includes benefits and pension in the total.

I'm not bothering because your premise is dumb. People take jobs on total compensation, not base per hour pay. Futhermore, most job listings don't even mention the wage. Go on Monster and take 100 random listings and see how many mention pay (since we are in the assigning homework mode).

[zeusbheld]

I'm not bothering because your premise is dumb. People take jobs on total compensation, not base per hour pay. Futhermore, most job listings don't even mention the wage. Go on Monster and take 100 random listings and see how many mention pay (since we are in the assigning homework mode).

i find your premise facile, glib and more than a little dishonest.

ask ANYONE what they earn and if they feel like telling you they will tell you either their salary, if they're salaried, or their straight hourly wage, if they earn a wage. it is completely dishonest to roll bennies into the wage when reporting in the media rather than break it out and assign approximate dollar values to bennies.

if all that was too wordy for you, how's this: HORSESHIT.

[Andrew K]

i find your premise facile, glib and more than a little dishonest.

ask ANYONE what they earn and if they feel like telling you they will tell you either their salary, if they're salaried, or their straight hourly wage, if they earn a wage. it is completely dishonest to roll bennies into the wage when reporting in the media rather than break it out and assign approximate dollar values to bennies.

if all that was too wordy for you, how's this: HORSESHIT.

Why should I ask somebody? Wouldn't looking at their tax returns be a more accurate assessment of one's pay?

[zeusbheld]

Why should I ask somebody? Wouldn't looking at their tax returns be a more accurate assessment of one's pay?

because if you're writing for a newspaper, that's what you do DUH.

because if you mention a figure, like oh i don't know HOURLY PAY? you're obligated if you have any professional integrity to represent it in a way that won't be utterly and completely misleading to people who are paid hourly?

because that's what we're talking about here, a NEWSPAPER ARTICLE?

keep spinning though, you might hit 4,000 RPM soon.

[Andrew K]

I'd much prefer my paper report reality and not perception, but that's just me. To each their own.

[Jason the Yank]

Why should I ask somebody? Wouldn't looking at their tax returns be a more accurate assessment of one's pay?

My tax returns don't include my benefit package though?

[zeusbheld]

I'd much prefer my paper report reality and not perception, but that's just me. To each their own.

no, you're not preferring "reality" YOU'RE MANIPULATING IT AND SPINNING IT. there is NO reason to present wage plus bennies as a lump hourly figure unless your'e trying to impress someone with the size of the number, based entirely on the assumption that people will read it as a base wage.

except for those who don't know the difference, that way of presenting an hourly just isn't done in the real world except by those attempting to deceive. even when a company is trying to emphasize the cash value of the benefits they still state the wage by itself and negotiate the wage before talking about benefits. last time i had a job in the US they did that for salary jobs too. *nobody* rolls the bennies in and calls it their salary. nobody except those who are trying to fool someone, and fools.

you'd think you could make a case that autoworkers are overpaid without being ham-handedly, obviously deceptive and then stubbornly sticking to your talking points and going down with the ship. what's the matter, twenty-whatever an hour doesn't sound overpaid enough for bolting together transmissions?

stubborn sophists like you are the best thing that ever happened to large government and reckless spending. rather than make your point, a point that *might* have been persuasive to quite a few people (depending on what they think factory work is worth) you've made any reader with two brain cells or more to rub together and a modicum of life experience suspicious of just about anything you write from now on. that sort of thinking has contributed tremendously the epic electoral failure of the Republican party in an allegedly right of center country. it's amazing that you still think the smoke and mirrors show works.

"to each their own" is the last refuge of bullshitters and liars. i bet you have your own unique ****ing version of the acceleration of gravity too. i bet it's equally honest, but i bet the real one's a lot more useful.

[Andrew K]

My tax returns don't include my benefit package though?

It mostly does, at least for this argument. Dave claimed items like vacation pay and overtime shouldn't be included in the conversation over how much somebody makes. Clearly, both show up on one's tax return. Contributions to a pension plan are deferred but are eventually taxed. And while health care benefits are not taxed, for now, they are a direct personnel cost and therefore are topical when considering competitive imbalances, which is the point of this entire conversation.

Returning to my initial post, hourly wage and benefits (not including legacy costs) cost the Big 3 $55 per labor hour which according to the NYT article I read is double the the national average wage (benefits included). In comparison, it costs foreign auto manufacturers $45 per labor hour. That results in an additional cost difference of $800 per car manufactured.

Of course, the biggest problem facing the Big 3, as the article pointed out, is the sad reality that Americans simply prefer not to buy American cars. As we have seen, you can stick an American brand and a Japanese brand on the exact same car and the Japanese branded car will sell better. Not to mention that Japanese automakers often sell their cars, in the same class, for a significantly higher price and still outsell their American rivals.

So, what is the endgame with a bailout? Why should we expect anything to change? The Big Three would still have an awful perception problem and will still have massive legacy liabilities on the horizon.

[Andrew K]

no, you're not preferring "reality" YOU'RE MANIPULATING IT AND SPINNING IT. there is NO reason to present wage plus bennies as a lump hourly figure unless your'e trying to impress someone with the size of the number, based entirely on the assumption that people will read it as a base wage.

except for those who don't know the difference, that way of presenting an hourly just isn't done in the real world except by those attempting to deceive. even when a company is trying to emphasize the cash value of the benefits they still state the wage by itself and negotiate the wage before talking about benefits. last time i had a job in the US they did that for salary jobs too. *nobody* rolls the bennies in and calls it their salary. nobody except those who are trying to fool someone, and fools.

you'd think you could make a case that autoworkers are overpaid without being ham-handedly, obviously deceptive and then stubbornly sticking to your talking points and going down with the ship. what's the matter, twenty-whatever an hour doesn't sound overpaid enough for bolting together transmissions?

stubborn sophists like you are the best thing that ever happened to large government and reckless spending. rather than make your point, a point that *might* have been persuasive to quite a few people (depending on what they think factory work is worth) you've made any reader with two brain cells or more to rub together and a modicum of life experience suspicious of just about anything you write from now on. that sort of thinking has contributed tremendously the epic electoral failure of the Republican party in an allegedly right of center country. it's amazing that you still think the smoke and mirrors show works.

"to each their own" is the last refuge of bullshitters and liars. i bet you have your own unique ****ing version of the acceleration of gravity too. i bet it's equally honest, but i bet the real one's a lot more useful.

Dude, you need to get back on the lithium.

[zeusbheld]

Dude, you need to get back on the lithium.

your zingers are right up there with your "argument," circling the bowl with the rest of your disingenuous ********.

[Jason the Yank]

It mostly does, at least for this argument. Dave claimed items like vacation pay and overtime shouldn't be included in the conversation over how much somebody makes. Clearly, both show up on one's tax return. Contributions to a pension plan are deferred but are eventually taxed. And while health care benefits are not taxed, for now, they are a direct personnel cost and therefore are topical when considering competitive imbalances, which is the point of this entire conversation.

Yes and no. If I don't take my vacation time, I lose it with no benefit to me, no tax on it, nothing. If I do take it, I get my regular pay and that shows up on the taxes.

Returning to my initial post, hourly wage and benefits (not including legacy costs) cost the Big 3 $55 per labor hour which according to the NYT article I read is double the the national average wage (benefits included). In comparison, it costs foreign auto manufacturers $45 per labor hour. That results in an additional cost difference of $800 per car manufactured.

Except it's the legacy costs that are really what's weighing down the Big 3. Retirees have always had their health care covered in the contract. Those are supposed to shift to a UAW-operated fund in 2010 (IIRC). Plus, the union agreed to a 2-tier pay scale, with new hires making about $14/hour in wages, an almost 50-percent cut.

Of course, the problem is the Big 3 have to get to 2010.

The other problem is citing your figures is that the foreign automakers' have been in operation for much less time. IIRC, there's only 1 foreign automaker plant that's been in operation for 20 years (which was the cutoff line on the proposal). Of course, as shown by one of the articles I posted, Toyota is starting to get concerned about how their labor expenses are increasing.

Of course, the biggest problem facing the Big 3, as the article pointed out, is the sad reality that Americans simply prefer not to buy American cars. As we have seen, you can stick an American brand and a Japanese brand on the exact same car and the Japanese branded car will sell better. Not to mention that Japanese automakers often sell their cars, in the same class, for a significantly higher price and still outsell their American rivals.

A lot of that is because of perceptions that (rightfully) arose in the 1970s when American cars really were junk. J.D. Power and Associates and Consumer Reports just this year flat out said that American cars are equal to Japanese cars in quality. But that hasn't translated to the general public.

The Japanese came over focusing on quality and affordability, and that's a brand image that's stuck.

So, what is the endgame with a bailout? Why should we expect anything to change? The Big Three would still have an awful perception problem and will still have massive legacy liabilities on the horizon.

You're still going to have pay those legacy costs in some fashion. If the retirees' health program isn't covered by the Big 3 (or by the UAW fund), they're going to be picked up by Medicare. So really that's just shifting money from one pocket to another.

And to say this is a bailout is not totally true. This is a loan, much like what Chrysler got in the late 1970s. Now, you can point out that "here we are again, 30 years later." But it was Chrysler that came up with innovations like the minivan after the feds stepped in to help keep it alive.

What the Big 3 need is a Lee Iacocca figure. This idea of a "car czar" is ridiculous and will probably be just as successful as the "drug czar."

Actually, what they need is the credit markets to thaw. Toyota sales were down just as much as GM's last month, because nobody can get a car loan now.