Help with 4-2-3-1 formation

Hi

Been playing FM games since 96/97 days always loved them and found getting tactics down OK......

Apart from FM16!! I jus can not seem to get my formation of 4-2-3-1 working and its annoying me to the point of not playing the game!

Struggle to score and the amount of time I conceded straight from kick off!!

struggling to add photos sorry

There are a number of 4-2-3-1 threads already, including one that has been updated as recently as the last 24 hours. Scroll down a bit and you can find it, and join in the conversation there.

yeah, we've been chatting up the formation on this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/450511-Why-Not-4231

But if you want specific help you will need to give a lot more info (if not pictures then at least a description of roles/duties, etc. - but just post them on the other thread so we can keep it all together

So I play

Mentality - Standard with Shape - Fluid

Tempo - Low

Time Wasting rarely

Width - Wide

High defensive line

Use offside trap

Closing down - always

tight marking

Play out of defence

Short passing

Be more expressive

Work ball into box and look for overlap

Whipped crosses

Run at defence

FB - Support

CB - as Central defenders

CM -Support

DLP - Support

IF - Attack

IF - Attack

AP - Attack (Roam from position)

AF

I don't ask them to do anything other than pre-set instructions

Players seem to play hit and hope passes, I hardly score goals!

I have loads of possession but do nothing with it.

when I do finally score, the opposition go straight down the other end and score from kick off!

Please help

There are a variety of things to look at here. Go take a look at the discussion in the thread I mentioned above, but just some general thoughts:

You have too many team instructions.

You have too many attack duties.

You need at least one of your central mids to be on a defend duty.

I think 2 and 3 are major issues defensively and will largely explain why you get scored on so easily.

No one to screen the defense and none of your attackers tracking back to help on defense

so play a BWM - Defence? IF - Support?

did wonder if I had to many instructions but not sure which to take off.

I have looked at many posts on here and other sites and that's how I got my tactic, just over time I've tried to make it my own.....without success.

in regards to them scoring straight from kick off once ive scored surely this is a issue, no? I don't even have time to tell plays to concentrate or defend and it 3 passes by them ...Goal!

so play a BWM - Defence? IF - Support?

did wonder if I had to many instructions but not sure which to take off.!

Why and why? You haven't defined how you want to play, and without that nobody an advise about specific Roles or TIs.

ozilthegunner's general advice is spot on.

because he said I have too many attack duties and one of my midfielders should be set to defend, that's why I've said should I play my IF as support not attack and a BWM as defence not support.

I like to play possession football but attack with pace, 4-2-3-1 is my tactic of choice but getting it right is proving difficult.

because he said I have too many attack duties and one of my midfielders should be set to defend, that's why I've said should I play my IF as support not attack and a BWM as defence not support.

I like to play possession football but attack with pace, 4-2-3-1 is my tactic of choice but getting it right is proving difficult.

But you need an idea of what and why. Someone suggests you need fewer Attack Duties, but maybe your intended playing style needs them? You've just changed on the basis of what someone said. Why change the IF to Support rather than another Role? What do you expect each Role in the team to do? Why a 4-2-3-1 in the first place?

I'm not being confrontational, but you need to know what you want frm every element of the system, or it inevitably becomes hard "getting it right" - because you don't have a crystal clear vision of what "right" is.

I haven't changed anything yet.

and I know your not but TBH, I don't really know what I want from every element of the system, I like the game but I'm not fully into all aspect of it (I've tried the classic version and do not like UI or the way it feels) even though I've played since the early years, I have struggled as the years have gone on and it becomes more in depth but never struggled as much as this year.

I've gone with 4-2-3-1 because its a formation I've stuck with for years and its always worked for me eventually, normally its got the correct amount of balance between defence and attack but in FM16 it doesn't seem to work, I've tried using wingers instead of IF and Complete forward not advanced forward, no joy. tried WB not FB.

I know what I'm asking for is prob not helping or making sense, but im hoping that somewhere in amongst my babble, someone can say this is what may be causing you to lose/concede goals straight from kickoff and my lack of goals

I know what I'm asking for is prob not helping or making sense, but im hoping that somewhere in amongst my babble, someone can say this is what may be causing you to lose/concede goals straight from kickoff and my lack of goals

The problem is that you are looking at small bits of the system, rather than the system as a whole. Chopping and changing a Role at a time only makes sense when you know what you are trying to achieve.

Start from scratch and think about all the bits. "Possession football with Attack and pace" is a little contradictory in FM because possession is based on time on the ball, so it naturally erodes if you try to do things quickly and directly. Think about exactly what the playing style is that you want.

Then think about the players fit into that playing style. Do you want one, both or neither of your full backs to support attacks? If it is the right hand one, what sort of "job" do you think make most sense for the MC on that side of the pitch to do? If a full back is bombing up the pitch, what do you think the wide midfielder on that same flank should do? If one side has an incutting midfielder, should the other have the same, or do you want to mix things up? What is the primary Role of the AMC? What do you want the striker to be? A pure goalscorer, a hybrid or a supplier? Should he hold up the ball in the middle or run the channels?

With player instructions I've always just left them at default settings

Ok I hear what your saying, and will look at the balance of the team....

with my Bony he's a Complete forward-support, yet I played him in this position for 2 seasons, scored 12 goals average rating below 7, sold him season 4 to Everton, 22 goals a in high 7s in one season! (tried him in Advanced forward, woeful)

Also I do play a better formation away from home that I got off here (4-3-2-1) much more defensive but still always concede straight after I've scored....is this a tactic issue or a game issue? im talking happens in at least 80% of the games I play?

(also when I trying searching for 4231 in search field is never comes up with posts, just says cannot find any post matching what ive asked)

What highlights mode do you watch? If you watch Key Highlights, then it can seem as if little is happening between goals. It is not a "game" issue - there is nothing coded in at all to artificially create an immediate goal against you if you have scored.

key highlights, but I've watched the odd extended highlights and its literally is straight from me scoring, my players celebrate, ball goes into centre spot, 3 passes later, immediate response from the opposition, is the comment.

check time of goals my goal say 38min their goal 38min and its always, always a goal that goes pass to wing, wing to striker, striker to 2nd striker/player, Goal.....

but guess that's for another topic debate haha

And how often does this happen?

The system you showed in post #4 doesn't help itself as it lacks a touch of defensive contribution from the AML/R, plus you have no holding midfielder. That means your full backs try to cover gaps left by the IFs, and the DCs need to shuffle across to cover that space AND cover in front if the MCs don't track back fast enough.

You also Closed Down a lot, pushed your line up AND played offside, all of which further risk pulling the team out of position. There are just too many TIs to be coherent. You want short passing everywhere but play wider in attack to extend the gaps between players, and the front four all run away from play anyway. It doesn't make much sense as a package.

The system you showed in post #4 doesn't help itself as it lacks a touch of defensive contribution from the AML/R, plus you have no holding midfielder. That means your full backs try to cover gaps left by the IFs, and the DCs need to shuffle across to cover that space AND cover in front if the MCs don't track back fast enough.

So this is what I was saying, if I don't have my IF set as attack but support, change my CM - support to a BWM - Defend this should help this side of things?

You also Closed Down a lot, pushed your line up AND played offside, all of which further risk pulling the team out of position. There are just too many TIs to be coherent. You want short passing everywhere but play wider in attack to extend the gaps between players, and the front four all run away from play anyway. It doesn't make much sense as a package.

So which TIs should I remove that may help?

1.So this is what I was saying, if I don't have my IF set as attack but support, change my CM - support to a BWM - Defend this should help this side of things?

2.So which TIs should I remove that may help?

1. Not really. If you read much about the BWM Role in a midfield two, you'll soon come to the conclusion that it isn't a rock solid figure in the middle, as he's liable to chase the ball and you'll lose shape in the middle again. Read this: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/451062-The-Art-of-Attacking-Football?p=10703020&viewfull=1#post10703020

2. Again, you need to have a clear view of playing style. You can't just add / remove TIs on a whim. You could remove the ones I mentioned, but that would see you drop deeper, Close Down Less and stop playing offside - it all depends what you want the team to do.

Sorry just chose BWM as I know I have one that I'm trying to convert to a CM (but may just set him to defend not support)

Playing style - possession football - mainly because that's what the West Ham board want (although they also ask for Attacking football)

Shall have a proper read of that link later, looks like heavy reading

PS - I do appreciate the advise your giving, I know its hard to give advise with little to work with

Okay, so your aim is predominantly possession football, but of course you do want to be attacking (i.e., you don't want to just maintain possession with lateral passes in your half).

We can work with that...

First, let me say that the advice I give below is not 'complete' - I can't go in and check out all the attributes and PPMs of your players, etc. and these things can make a difference to exactly how you set up. So what I say is more about general concepts that I think work well (generally, but not necessarily) for a possession-based 4231.

Okay, so here are some more specific thoughts:

1) The 4231 is itself already quite attacking since it has no one in the DM slot. So I do not think you need to focus too much on 'making it more attacking'. So keep that in mind when you think about roles/duties and TIs.

2) However, you do need to have a good idea of where your goals are going to come from. If you play a striker on a deep support role, you are probably expecting one or more of your AMs to be the major goal scorer. But I would take a look at your attacking options and identify your best finisher(s). That will help figure out whether you want the ST to be a deep lying player, etc.

3) As RT mentioned (which is what I was hinting at but didn't say before) 'attack' duties in the AM strata significantly reduce defensive contribution. But also, they reduce your ability to play a possession game. As RT mentioned, the attack duty players will be running away from the ball rather than coming nearer to the player in possession to provide an easier pass. Of course you do likely want a player or two to, on occasion, make a run hoping for a quick pass over the top or whatever, but you certainly don't want all your players doing that (especially since you want to play a possession game).

4) If you want to play 'fast' (you mentioned that earlier) but nonetheless a possession game, in part what you are looking for is just a team that, when the moment presents itself, goes on the counter-attack. That will happen when your players win the ball and can get players forward, largely depending on your mentality (i.e., the 'counter' mentality is counterattacks LESS because players are more cautious about whether or not the counterattack will work or will just pull them out of position). But, importantly, as Cleon discusses in the Art of counter-attacking thread, when a team counter-attacks team instructions are ignored. So do not worry about trying to force your team to 'play fast' through TIs if your main goal is possession but you occasionally want the quick attack.

5) The real key, defensively, for a 4231 is the relationship between the CMs and the FBs (and the relationship between each of the CMs). If your fullbacks are not particularly helpful in attack, you can have them sit and then your CMs can be more adventurous. On the other hand, if you are getting your FBs forward in attack, you need your CMs to be more cautious. So one decision you have to make is which of those two options you want.

If you go the route of attacking FBs (by which I just mean they help in attack, not that they are necessarily on an 'attack' duty) then you should probably set one of your CMs to CM(d) [as opposed to BWM because of the closing down issue. Although I do not think it is as problematic as others.]. The other one should certainly NOT be on an attack duty, but you can fiddle between options (DLP(d), DLP(s), BBM(s), RPM(s) are all good options, depending on the player and the others around him, so you just have to play it out).

6) As for attack duties. While by no means necessary (in fact, I don't do this) one useful heuristic is to ensure whoever you intend your main goal scoring threat to be you set on an attack duty. This may be one of the wingers, or the AMC, or the ST. You may also want to set one other player of that 4 on attack, but maybe not. Keep in mind, you want players coming into the box at different angles and at different times, and a player in that area on a 'support' duty will still get in involved in attack, perhaps from deeper, which can be quite helpful to you and dangerous for the opposition.

My personal preference is to have no more than 3 attack duties, one of which is a fullback. So only 2 attack duties (at most) in the top 4, often only 1 (and I change who that is depending on the team and the situation). You do not need to stick to that, but one thing to keep in mind is that those players on 'attack' duty in the front 4 will not contribute much, if at all, on defense. And the striker won't really no matter what (he may harass defenders or perhaps a DM, but largely will just hang around up top).

7) As for TIs. First, you need to pick your shape and mentality. That will define your default style of play. A possession game is usually going to work best (again, this is just a general idea, not a steadfast rule) on a 'standard' or 'control' mentality. Shape is more preferential, but think of it this way - increase the fluidity you compact the team (good for shorter passing perhaps) but also increase their creative freedom so they may try riskier stuff (bad for possession perhaps, but maybe good for breaking down a defense). If you aren't sure what you want here, flexible is always good.

After you have that set, now think of how you want to play, but don't just click all the TIs you think fit that style. I'd just watch a game, on full for at least some of the time, and see if my team is playing how I want. As I identify things that aren't going how I expect (too long of passing maybe, or too little movement) I then start thinking about what TIs would help shape my ideas. Of course if you really want to commit to this, you should watch multiple games on full without changing anything (since some of what you see may be idiosyncratic).

------------

So there are some ideas. Now if you really just want to throw some ideas into the tactic creator rather than slowing working and tweaking, check out the 'Why not 4-2-3-1?' thread and I and others have posted some of our versions of the tactic. I do not generally recommend that as a good approach, but to each his own. If nothing else, I hope you will see at least some of the general suggestions mentioned above carried out in those specific tactics.

Extremely thorough and helpful post there ozilthegunner

brilliant...thank you very much for this......players playing much better and not conceding straight from kick off....(this is after 10 games) still struggle to score mind you but much better.

thanks again

Extremely thorough and helpful post there ozilthegunner

I agree, that was nicely done. I love to see the community posting like this, feels like we're getting (as a community) something right in here at times

Okay, so your aim is predominantly possession football, but of course you do want to be attacking (i.e., you don't want to just maintain possession with lateral passes in your half).

We can work with that...

First, let me say that the advice I give below is not 'complete' - I can't go in and check out all the attributes and PPMs of your players, etc. and these things can make a difference to exactly how you set up. So what I say is more about general concepts that I think work well (generally, but not necessarily) for a possession-based 4231.

Okay, so here are some more specific thoughts:

1) The 4231 is itself already quite attacking since it has no one in the DM slot. So I do not think you need to focus too much on 'making it more attacking'. So keep that in mind when you think about roles/duties and TIs.

2) However, you do need to have a good idea of where your goals are going to come from. If you play a striker on a deep support role, you are probably expecting one or more of your AMs to be the major goal scorer. But I would take a look at your attacking options and identify your best finisher(s). That will help figure out whether you want the ST to be a deep lying player, etc.

3) As RT mentioned (which is what I was hinting at but didn't say before) 'attack' duties in the AM strata significantly reduce defensive contribution. But also, they reduce your ability to play a possession game. As RT mentioned, the attack duty players will be running away from the ball rather than coming nearer to the player in possession to provide an easier pass. Of course you do likely want a player or two to, on occasion, make a run hoping for a quick pass over the top or whatever, but you certainly don't want all your players doing that (especially since you want to play a possession game).

4) If you want to play 'fast' (you mentioned that earlier) but nonetheless a possession game, in part what you are looking for is just a team that, when the moment presents itself, goes on the counter-attack. That will happen when your players win the ball and can get players forward, largely depending on your mentality (i.e., the 'counter' mentality is counterattacks LESS because players are more cautious about whether or not the counterattack will work or will just pull them out of position). But, importantly, as Cleon discusses in the Art of counter-attacking thread, when a team counter-attacks team instructions are ignored. So do not worry about trying to force your team to 'play fast' through TIs if your main goal is possession but you occasionally want the quick attack.

5) The real key, defensively, for a 4231 is the relationship between the CMs and the FBs (and the relationship between each of the CMs). If your fullbacks are not particularly helpful in attack, you can have them sit and then your CMs can be more adventurous. On the other hand, if you are getting your FBs forward in attack, you need your CMs to be more cautious. So one decision you have to make is which of those two options you want.

If you go the route of attacking FBs (by which I just mean they help in attack, not that they are necessarily on an 'attack' duty) then you should probably set one of your CMs to CM(d) [as opposed to BWM because of the closing down issue. Although I do not think it is as problematic as others.]. The other one should certainly NOT be on an attack duty, but you can fiddle between options (DLP(d), DLP(s), BBM(s), RPM(s) are all good options, depending on the player and the others around him, so you just have to play it out).

6) As for attack duties. While by no means necessary (in fact, I don't do this) one useful heuristic is to ensure whoever you intend your main goal scoring threat to be you set on an attack duty. This may be one of the wingers, or the AMC, or the ST. You may also want to set one other player of that 4 on attack, but maybe not. Keep in mind, you want players coming into the box at different angles and at different times, and a player in that area on a 'support' duty will still get in involved in attack, perhaps from deeper, which can be quite helpful to you and dangerous for the opposition.

My personal preference is to have no more than 3 attack duties, one of which is a fullback. So only 2 attack duties (at most) in the top 4, often only 1 (and I change who that is depending on the team and the situation). You do not need to stick to that, but one thing to keep in mind is that those players on 'attack' duty in the front 4 will not contribute much, if at all, on defense. And the striker won't really no matter what (he may harass defenders or perhaps a DM, but largely will just hang around up top).

7) As for TIs. First, you need to pick your shape and mentality. That will define your default style of play. A possession game is usually going to work best (again, this is just a general idea, not a steadfast rule) on a 'standard' or 'control' mentality. Shape is more preferential, but think of it this way - increase the fluidity you compact the team (good for shorter passing perhaps) but also increase their creative freedom so they may try riskier stuff (bad for possession perhaps, but maybe good for breaking down a defense). If you aren't sure what you want here, flexible is always good.

After you have that set, now think of how you want to play, but don't just click all the TIs you think fit that style. I'd just watch a game, on full for at least some of the time, and see if my team is playing how I want. As I identify things that aren't going how I expect (too long of passing maybe, or too little movement) I then start thinking about what TIs would help shape my ideas. Of course if you really want to commit to this, you should watch multiple games on full without changing anything (since some of what you see may be idiosyncratic).

------------

So there are some ideas. Now if you really just want to throw some ideas into the tactic creator rather than slowing working and tweaking, check out the 'Why not 4-2-3-1?' thread and I and others have posted some of our versions of the tactic. I do not generally recommend that as a good approach, but to each his own. If nothing else, I hope you will see at least some of the general suggestions mentioned above carried out in those specific tactics.

A fantastic reply

Okay, so your aim is predominantly possession football, but of course you do want to be attacking (i.e., you don't want to just maintain possession with lateral passes in your half).

We can work with that...

First, let me say that the advice I give below is not 'complete' - I can't go in and check out all the attributes and PPMs of your players, etc. and these things can make a difference to exactly how you set up. So what I say is more about general concepts that I think work well (generally, but not necessarily) for a possession-based 4231.

Okay, so here are some more specific thoughts:

1) The 4231 is itself already quite attacking since it has no one in the DM slot. So I do not think you need to focus too much on 'making it more attacking'. So keep that in mind when you think about roles/duties and TIs.

2) However, you do need to have a good idea of where your goals are going to come from. If you play a striker on a deep support role, you are probably expecting one or more of your AMs to be the major goal scorer. But I would take a look at your attacking options and identify your best finisher(s). That will help figure out whether you want the ST to be a deep lying player, etc.

3) As RT mentioned (which is what I was hinting at but didn't say before) 'attack' duties in the AM strata significantly reduce defensive contribution. But also, they reduce your ability to play a possession game. As RT mentioned, the attack duty players will be running away from the ball rather than coming nearer to the player in possession to provide an easier pass. Of course you do likely want a player or two to, on occasion, make a run hoping for a quick pass over the top or whatever, but you certainly don't want all your players doing that (especially since you want to play a possession game).

4) If you want to play 'fast' (you mentioned that earlier) but nonetheless a possession game, in part what you are looking for is just a team that, when the moment presents itself, goes on the counter-attack. That will happen when your players win the ball and can get players forward, largely depending on your mentality (i.e., the 'counter' mentality is counterattacks LESS because players are more cautious about whether or not the counterattack will work or will just pull them out of position). But, importantly, as Cleon discusses in the Art of counter-attacking thread, when a team counter-attacks team instructions are ignored. So do not worry about trying to force your team to 'play fast' through TIs if your main goal is possession but you occasionally want the quick attack.

5) The real key, defensively, for a 4231 is the relationship between the CMs and the FBs (and the relationship between each of the CMs). If your fullbacks are not particularly helpful in attack, you can have them sit and then your CMs can be more adventurous. On the other hand, if you are getting your FBs forward in attack, you need your CMs to be more cautious. So one decision you have to make is which of those two options you want.

If you go the route of attacking FBs (by which I just mean they help in attack, not that they are necessarily on an 'attack' duty) then you should probably set one of your CMs to CM(d) [as opposed to BWM because of the closing down issue. Although I do not think it is as problematic as others.]. The other one should certainly NOT be on an attack duty, but you can fiddle between options (DLP(d), DLP(s), BBM(s), RPM(s) are all good options, depending on the player and the others around him, so you just have to play it out).

6) As for attack duties. While by no means necessary (in fact, I don't do this) one useful heuristic is to ensure whoever you intend your main goal scoring threat to be you set on an attack duty. This may be one of the wingers, or the AMC, or the ST. You may also want to set one other player of that 4 on attack, but maybe not. Keep in mind, you want players coming into the box at different angles and at different times, and a player in that area on a 'support' duty will still get in involved in attack, perhaps from deeper, which can be quite helpful to you and dangerous for the opposition.

My personal preference is to have no more than 3 attack duties, one of which is a fullback. So only 2 attack duties (at most) in the top 4, often only 1 (and I change who that is depending on the team and the situation). You do not need to stick to that, but one thing to keep in mind is that those players on 'attack' duty in the front 4 will not contribute much, if at all, on defense. And the striker won't really no matter what (he may harass defenders or perhaps a DM, but largely will just hang around up top).

7) As for TIs. First, you need to pick your shape and mentality. That will define your default style of play. A possession game is usually going to work best (again, this is just a general idea, not a steadfast rule) on a 'standard' or 'control' mentality. Shape is more preferential, but think of it this way - increase the fluidity you compact the team (good for shorter passing perhaps) but also increase their creative freedom so they may try riskier stuff (bad for possession perhaps, but maybe good for breaking down a defense). If you aren't sure what you want here, flexible is always good.

After you have that set, now think of how you want to play, but don't just click all the TIs you think fit that style. I'd just watch a game, on full for at least some of the time, and see if my team is playing how I want. As I identify things that aren't going how I expect (too long of passing maybe, or too little movement) I then start thinking about what TIs would help shape my ideas. Of course if you really want to commit to this, you should watch multiple games on full without changing anything (since some of what you see may be idiosyncratic).

------------

So there are some ideas. Now if you really just want to throw some ideas into the tactic creator rather than slowing working and tweaking, check out the 'Why not 4-2-3-1?' thread and I and others have posted some of our versions of the tactic. I do not generally recommend that as a good approach, but to each his own. If nothing else, I hope you will see at least some of the general suggestions mentioned above carried out in those specific tactics.

Now that's what you call an extremely helpful response! Superb stuff!

... A good 4231 guide ...

Terrible, you didn't mention CM-Support as an option! Poor role is always forgotten about

Good explanation, only thing I would add is think about where you will be leaving space when defending, who has to defend that space and if they have the attributes for it. For example, if you have attacking FB's then your CB's or the MC-D are most likely going to have to cover that space.

That means either:

1. Getting there before the opposition

2. If beaten to the ball they need to at least delay them by blocking / running with them.

3. Potentially engaging to win the ball back 1v1 but not recklessly sliding in and getting beaten exposing you to counters.

Hence I value anticipation, mobility (mostly acceleration and agility with decent pace), decisions, strength and tackling in those players. I hate PPMs like Dives Into Tackles.

Terrible, you didn't mention CM-Support as an option! Poor role is always forgotten about

Good explanation, only thing I would add is think about where you will be leaving space when defending, who has to defend that space and if they have the attributes for it. For example, if you have attacking FB's then your CB's or the MC-D are most likely going to have to cover that space.

That means either:

1. Getting there before the opposition

2. If beaten to the ball they need to at least delay them by blocking / running with them.

3. Potentially engaging to win the ball back 1v1 but not recklessly sliding in and getting beaten exposing you to counters.

Hence I value anticipation, mobility (mostly acceleration and agility with decent pace), decisions, strength and tackling in those players. I hate PPMs like Dives Into Tackles.

Yeah, this is good.

And I didn't mean to give an exhaustive list of the roles that would work. The CM-S could in fact be a great role in that middle if paired appropriately, etc. I actually really enjoy just using the CM roles on various duties in many of my tactics (although not so much the 4231 I have been using as of late) because they are so customizable and you can create more significant change on-the-fly with a substitution from a player with certain style and PPMs to another.

Okay, so your aim is predominantly possession football, but of course you do want to be attacking (i.e., you don't want to just maintain possession with lateral passes in your half).

We can work with that...

First, let me say that the advice I give below is not 'complete' - I can't go in and check out all the attributes and PPMs of your players, etc. and these things can make a difference to exactly how you set up. So what I say is more about general concepts that I think work well (generally, but not necessarily) for a possession-based 4231.

Okay, so here are some more specific thoughts:

1) The 4231 is itself already quite attacking since it has no one in the DM slot. So I do not think you need to focus too much on 'making it more attacking'. So keep that in mind when you think about roles/duties and TIs.

2) However, you do need to have a good idea of where your goals are going to come from. If you play a striker on a deep support role, you are probably expecting one or more of your AMs to be the major goal scorer. But I would take a look at your attacking options and identify your best finisher(s). That will help figure out whether you want the ST to be a deep lying player, etc.

3) As RT mentioned (which is what I was hinting at but didn't say before) 'attack' duties in the AM strata significantly reduce defensive contribution. But also, they reduce your ability to play a possession game. As RT mentioned, the attack duty players will be running away from the ball rather than coming nearer to the player in possession to provide an easier pass. Of course you do likely want a player or two to, on occasion, make a run hoping for a quick pass over the top or whatever, but you certainly don't want all your players doing that (especially since you want to play a possession game).

4) If you want to play 'fast' (you mentioned that earlier) but nonetheless a possession game, in part what you are looking for is just a team that, when the moment presents itself, goes on the counter-attack. That will happen when your players win the ball and can get players forward, largely depending on your mentality (i.e., the 'counter' mentality is counterattacks LESS because players are more cautious about whether or not the counterattack will work or will just pull them out of position). But, importantly, as Cleon discusses in the Art of counter-attacking thread, when a team counter-attacks team instructions are ignored. So do not worry about trying to force your team to 'play fast' through TIs if your main goal is possession but you occasionally want the quick attack.

5) The real key, defensively, for a 4231 is the relationship between the CMs and the FBs (and the relationship between each of the CMs). If your fullbacks are not particularly helpful in attack, you can have them sit and then your CMs can be more adventurous. On the other hand, if you are getting your FBs forward in attack, you need your CMs to be more cautious. So one decision you have to make is which of those two options you want.

If you go the route of attacking FBs (by which I just mean they help in attack, not that they are necessarily on an 'attack' duty) then you should probably set one of your CMs to CM(d) [as opposed to BWM because of the closing down issue. Although I do not think it is as problematic as others.]. The other one should certainly NOT be on an attack duty, but you can fiddle between options (DLP(d), DLP(s), BBM(s), RPM(s) are all good options, depending on the player and the others around him, so you just have to play it out).

6) As for attack duties. While by no means necessary (in fact, I don't do this) one useful heuristic is to ensure whoever you intend your main goal scoring threat to be you set on an attack duty. This may be one of the wingers, or the AMC, or the ST. You may also want to set one other player of that 4 on attack, but maybe not. Keep in mind, you want players coming into the box at different angles and at different times, and a player in that area on a 'support' duty will still get in involved in attack, perhaps from deeper, which can be quite helpful to you and dangerous for the opposition.

My personal preference is to have no more than 3 attack duties, one of which is a fullback. So only 2 attack duties (at most) in the top 4, often only 1 (and I change who that is depending on the team and the situation). You do not need to stick to that, but one thing to keep in mind is that those players on 'attack' duty in the front 4 will not contribute much, if at all, on defense. And the striker won't really no matter what (he may harass defenders or perhaps a DM, but largely will just hang around up top).

7) As for TIs. First, you need to pick your shape and mentality. That will define your default style of play. A possession game is usually going to work best (again, this is just a general idea, not a steadfast rule) on a 'standard' or 'control' mentality. Shape is more preferential, but think of it this way - increase the fluidity you compact the team (good for shorter passing perhaps) but also increase their creative freedom so they may try riskier stuff (bad for possession perhaps, but maybe good for breaking down a defense). If you aren't sure what you want here, flexible is always good.

After you have that set, now think of how you want to play, but don't just click all the TIs you think fit that style. I'd just watch a game, on full for at least some of the time, and see if my team is playing how I want. As I identify things that aren't going how I expect (too long of passing maybe, or too little movement) I then start thinking about what TIs would help shape my ideas. Of course if you really want to commit to this, you should watch multiple games on full without changing anything (since some of what you see may be idiosyncratic).

------------

So there are some ideas. Now if you really just want to throw some ideas into the tactic creator rather than slowing working and tweaking, check out the 'Why not 4-2-3-1?' thread and I and others have posted some of our versions of the tactic. I do not generally recommend that as a good approach, but to each his own. If nothing else, I hope you will see at least some of the general suggestions mentioned above carried out in those specific tactics.

This is great post mate. I just have a question regarding the front 4. Would you ever recommend using 3 attack duties in the front 4. My current front is set like this

Inside Forward Attack

Inside Forward Support

Advance Playmaker Attack

Deep Lying Forward Support

I want to see my Inside Forward Support attacking the box from deep. My other Inside Forward should really be my main goal scorer. The Deep Lying Forward Support to drag the Center backs out and link play. The Advance Playmaker Attack I am hoping will create and also chip in with some goals. When the DLF drops deep I hope he will get in the box also and help with some goals. I am not sure I got the AMC role and duty right. I am playing Ozil in this role and his PPM does not really help with scoring too many goals. He has a look for pass rather than shoot and that is my biggest concern.

I also play DLP Defend and Central Midfield Support as my midfield pairing. I have just started a new save again and I have played 7 pre season games and it seems to all be playing out well. The midfield pairing looks solid and the front 4 look very good.

I am playing Attacking and Fluid. My team TIs are

Play out of defence

Work Ball into Box

Prevent Goal Keeper Distribution

Shorter Passing

I am wondering if this is just false hope because my front 4 seems to be working so well and the midfield pairing are looking solid.

I keep thinking that when I get to the real season games I will get destroyed because what I see in pre season will not play out in the real season.

This is great post mate. I just have a question regarding the front 4. Would you ever recommend using 3 attack duties in the front 4. My current front is set like this

Inside Forward Attack

Inside Forward Support

Advance Playmaker Attack

Deep Lying Forward Support

I want to see my Inside Forward Support attacking the box from deep. My other Inside Forward should really be my main goal scorer. The Deep Lying Forward Support to drag the Center backs out and link play. The Advance Playmaker Attack I am hoping will create and also chip in with some goals. When the DLF drops deep I hope he will get in the box also and help with some goals. I am not sure I got the AMC role and duty right. I am playing Ozil in this role and his PPM does not really help with scoring too many goals. He has a look for pass rather than shoot and that is my biggest concern.

I also play DLP Defend and Central Midfield Support as my midfield pairing. I have just started a new save again and I have played 7 pre season games and it seems to all be playing out well. The midfield pairing looks solid and the front 4 look very good.

I am playing Attacking and Fluid. My team TIs are

Play out of defence

Work Ball into Box

Prevent Goal Keeper Distribution

Shorter Passing

I am wondering if this is just false hope because my front 4 seems to be working so well and the midfield pairing are looking solid.

I keep thinking that when I get to the real season games I will get destroyed because what I see in pre season will not play out in the real season.

I personally wouldn't play 3 attack duties up front, but that is in part because I play a bit more cautiously overall. I like clean sheets.

But with an attacking mentality it could work, because you would be hoping to win the ball higher up the pitch so the lack of tracking back wouldn't be as problematic.

Who were you thinking to change to attack though? The striker or the other inside forward? I think, defensively speaking, changing the striker to attack is less problematic since he probably isn't contributing much defensively anyway. You still may not want to make the change for offensive reasons though.

But I would keep at least one of the IFs on support. You want those wingers tracking back to help on defense.

As for ozil. I play him as an AP and switch between attack and support depending on what I see in the game. Either way he is great for me. Fewer goals on support, but plenty of assists either way. And he does run past my striker which is good. I do tell him to roam if on attack which helps (hold position is defaulted on support)

Finally you mention you want your IFa to be your main goal scorer, which is why he is on attack. Am I right to suspect this is Sanchez? If so, then I think leaving him on attack is fine (for me he still tracks back because he is a beast) but I play him on support a lot too and he is still my top scorer so don't feel you have to leave him on attack to get his best production

I personally wouldn't play 3 attack duties up front, but that is in part because I play a bit more cautiously overall. I like clean sheets.

But with an attacking mentality it could work, because you would be hoping to win the ball higher up the pitch so the lack of tracking back wouldn't be as problematic.

Who were you thinking to change to attack though? The striker or the other inside forward? I think, defensively speaking, changing the striker to attack is less problematic since he probably isn't contributing much defensively anyway. You still may not want to make the change for offensive reasons though.

But I would keep at least one of the IFs on support. You want those wingers tracking back to help on defense.

As for ozil. I play him as an AP and switch between attack and support depending on what I see in the game. Either way he is great for me. Fewer goals on support, but plenty of assists either way. And he does run past my striker which is good. I do tell him to roam if on attack which helps (hold position is defaulted on support)

Finally you mention you want your IFa to be your main goal scorer, which is why he is on attack. Am I right to suspect this is Sanchez? If so, then I think leaving him on attack is fine (for me he still tracks back because he is a beast) but I play him on support a lot too and he is still my top scorer so don't feel you have to leave him on attack to get his best production

I think having the inside forward on support is not a bad option I have Walcott playing as a inside forward support and he is a beast so fat. I think I will only leave the striker on attack for now. Ozil on support AVP.

Ok, so while my new tactics have improved my team.....my Forwards just will not score still!

they have about 1 shot a game if that!

I play Advanced Forward (choice between Giroud, Rooney, Embolo) and they have 6 goals between them after 20 games in the league! should I play Complete Forward?

As mentioned above in earlier posts

Formation 4-2-3-1

Mentality - Standard with Shape - Fluid

Tempo - Low

Time Wasting rarely

Width - Wide

High defensive line

Closing down - always

Tight marking

Play out of defence

Short passing

Retain Possession

Work ball into box

Whipped crosses

Run at defence

FB - Support (Stay Wider)

CB - as Central defenders

CM -Support

DLP - Defend

IF - Support (play Narrow, Roam from Position)

IF - Support (play Narrow, Roam from Position)

AP - Attack (Roam from position, Direct Passes and move into Channels)

AF

I'm playing Possession football which the board love

Ok, so while my new tactics have improved my team.....my Forwards just will not score still!

they have about 1 shot a game if that!

I play Advanced Forward (choice between Giroud, Rooney, Embolo) and they have 6 goals between them after 20 games in the league! should I play Complete Forward?

As mentioned above in earlier posts

Formation 4-2-3-1

Mentality - Standard with Shape - Fluid

Tempo - Low

Time Wasting rarely

Width - Wide

High defensive line

Closing down - always

Tight marking

Play out of defence

Short passing

Retain Possession

Work ball into box

Whipped crosses

Run at defence

FB - Support (Stay Wider)

CB - as Central defenders

CM -Support

DLP - Defend

IF - Support (play Narrow, Roam from Position)

IF - Support (play Narrow, Roam from Position)

AP - Attack (Roam from position, Direct Passes and move into Channels)

AF

I'm playing Possession football which the board love

There was a similar issue somewhere else on the forum yesterday actually and I would say the most likely issue is that the tempo/passing is too slow and predictable. With retain possession, low tempo, short passing and work ball into box all selected, your passing/tempo is basically going to be extremely slow and patient. While this means you'll get plenty of time on the ball and the possession stats will go up, it will be a lot of passing with no penetration. The opposition will sit deep and pack the box (especially if you're a strong team), your AF will get crowded out and your IFs will run into a brick wall of defenders/midfielders.

Rather than possession around the opposition box, perhaps you could consider a way of creating possession deeper on the pitch, meaning the opposition have to come out a bit to press you, before you then go forwards with more pace?

There was a similar issue somewhere else on the forum yesterday actually and I would say the most likely issue is that the tempo/passing is too slow and predictable. With retain possession, low tempo, short passing and work ball into box all selected, your passing/tempo is basically going to be extremely slow and patient. While this means you'll get plenty of time on the ball and the possession stats will go up, it will be a lot of passing with no penetration. The opposition will sit deep and pack the box (especially if you're a strong team), your AF will get crowded out and your IFs will run into a brick wall of defenders/midfielders.

Rather than possession around the opposition box, perhaps you could consider a way of creating possession deeper on the pitch, meaning the opposition have to come out a bit to press you, before you then go forwards with more pace?

Yep, all this. In fact, in the other thread Bowie is mentioning, the slowness wasn't quite this bad - at least 'work ball into box' wasn't checked.

But yeah, you have FOUR TIs that are all making you extra cautious and predictable.

Personally, of what you have here, the only thing I would leave is 'retain possession'. That shortens the passing itself (you can see this when you click it and watch the passing length option decrease significantly) so leaving passing on 'mixed' will still be quite short. But, at most, only 2 of these (and not just any combination, but I am sure a few would perhaps be okay).

Think about what 'work ball into box' does - it is effectively 'retain possession' in the attacking third. But if you already have 'retain possession' in the rest of the field, why slow things down even more in the attacking third?

Also, since you are playing with an AF, it is not terribly surprising they aren't scoring that much with the slowness of your build-up. Their success will in large part depend on getting in front of defenders on a through-ball or cross. But if your team is getting the ball to the attacking third and then just holding it up for the defense to all pack in, there is no space for that AF to run into anymore.

Finally, its cool you want to play possession football and it is good the board is happy with that. But you can still maintain that while being more decisive in attack. I often get in my press conferences comments on both the high possession game I play and the attacking style (both of which are part of Arsenal's philosophy). The key is finding a balance.

Check out the 'Why not 4-2-3-1?' thread for a lot more on using the 4-2-3-1 formation, and a lot of that just happens to be related to Arsenal in particular

Okay, so your aim is predominantly possession football, but of course you do want to be attacking (i.e., you don't want to just maintain possession with lateral passes in your half).

We can work with that...

First, let me say that the advice I give below is not 'complete' - I can't go in and check out all the attributes and PPMs of your players, etc. and these things can make a difference to exactly how you set up. So what I say is more about general concepts that I think work well (generally, but not necessarily) for a possession-based 4231.

Okay, so here are some more specific thoughts:

1) The 4231 is itself already quite attacking since it has no one in the DM slot. So I do not think you need to focus too much on 'making it more attacking'. So keep that in mind when you think about roles/duties and TIs.

2) However, you do need to have a good idea of where your goals are going to come from. If you play a striker on a deep support role, you are probably expecting one or more of your AMs to be the major goal scorer. But I would take a look at your attacking options and identify your best finisher(s). That will help figure out whether you want the ST to be a deep lying player, etc.

3) As RT mentioned (which is what I was hinting at but didn't say before) 'attack' duties in the AM strata significantly reduce defensive contribution. But also, they reduce your ability to play a possession game. As RT mentioned, the attack duty players will be running away from the ball rather than coming nearer to the player in possession to provide an easier pass. Of course you do likely want a player or two to, on occasion, make a run hoping for a quick pass over the top or whatever, but you certainly don't want all your players doing that (especially since you want to play a possession game).

4) If you want to play 'fast' (you mentioned that earlier) but nonetheless a possession game, in part what you are looking for is just a team that, when the moment presents itself, goes on the counter-attack. That will happen when your players win the ball and can get players forward, largely depending on your mentality (i.e., the 'counter' mentality is counterattacks LESS because players are more cautious about whether or not the counterattack will work or will just pull them out of position). But, importantly, as Cleon discusses in the Art of counter-attacking thread, when a team counter-attacks team instructions are ignored. So do not worry about trying to force your team to 'play fast' through TIs if your main goal is possession but you occasionally want the quick attack.

5) The real key, defensively, for a 4231 is the relationship between the CMs and the FBs (and the relationship between each of the CMs). If your fullbacks are not particularly helpful in attack, you can have them sit and then your CMs can be more adventurous. On the other hand, if you are getting your FBs forward in attack, you need your CMs to be more cautious. So one decision you have to make is which of those two options you want.

If you go the route of attacking FBs (by which I just mean they help in attack, not that they are necessarily on an 'attack' duty) then you should probably set one of your CMs to CM(d) [as opposed to BWM because of the closing down issue. Although I do not think it is as problematic as others.]. The other one should certainly NOT be on an attack duty, but you can fiddle between options (DLP(d), DLP(s), BBM(s), RPM(s) are all good options, depending on the player and the others around him, so you just have to play it out).

6) As for attack duties. While by no means necessary (in fact, I don't do this) one useful heuristic is to ensure whoever you intend your main goal scoring threat to be you set on an attack duty. This may be one of the wingers, or the AMC, or the ST. You may also want to set one other player of that 4 on attack, but maybe not. Keep in mind, you want players coming into the box at different angles and at different times, and a player in that area on a 'support' duty will still get in involved in attack, perhaps from deeper, which can be quite helpful to you and dangerous for the opposition.

My personal preference is to have no more than 3 attack duties, one of which is a fullback. So only 2 attack duties (at most) in the top 4, often only 1 (and I change who that is depending on the team and the situation). You do not need to stick to that, but one thing to keep in mind is that those players on 'attack' duty in the front 4 will not contribute much, if at all, on defense. And the striker won't really no matter what (he may harass defenders or perhaps a DM, but largely will just hang around up top).

7) As for TIs. First, you need to pick your shape and mentality. That will define your default style of play. A possession game is usually going to work best (again, this is just a general idea, not a steadfast rule) on a 'standard' or 'control' mentality. Shape is more preferential, but think of it this way - increase the fluidity you compact the team (good for shorter passing perhaps) but also increase their creative freedom so they may try riskier stuff (bad for possession perhaps, but maybe good for breaking down a defense). If you aren't sure what you want here, flexible is always good.

After you have that set, now think of how you want to play, but don't just click all the TIs you think fit that style. I'd just watch a game, on full for at least some of the time, and see if my team is playing how I want. As I identify things that aren't going how I expect (too long of passing maybe, or too little movement) I then start thinking about what TIs would help shape my ideas. Of course if you really want to commit to this, you should watch multiple games on full without changing anything (since some of what you see may be idiosyncratic).

------------

So there are some ideas. Now if you really just want to throw some ideas into the tactic creator rather than slowing working and tweaking, check out the 'Why not 4-2-3-1?' thread and I and others have posted some of our versions of the tactic. I do not generally recommend that as a good approach, but to each his own. If nothing else, I hope you will see at least some of the general suggestions mentioned above carried out in those specific tactics.

Contains gold.