Help with 4-3-1-2 Tactic

Hi, i need help with this tactic. I am playing with Inter with one rule, i can buy only Italian players. But i am struggling to find good setup for it almost 3 seasons. Ofcourse my team is worse every season because i am selling best players to bring in young Italian talents but i was struggling with this formation also on beggining of save when i had much better team than this now.

Ok, i am first in league table but i am not pleased how they play. I will give you my tactic but i must say, i was changing everything so this is not tactic which i am using from beggining. I was changing DLP to CM Defend, CM Support's on Attack, Advanced Playmaker on support, CM support to box to box mid and so on, but they always play bad. First problem is my defence, very poor at dealing with opponent strikers. I was changing one CD defend to cover but nothing. Push up and drop deeper also no changes. Complete wing back's are great (Dimarco made his first cap for Italy with just 18 years). Second problem are my CM support players. I have no use from them. They don't defend nor joining attack.

Things which i noticed while playing - opponents never make poor pass or mistakes, their every attack is perfect until they shot at goal. Their tackling is superb, but mine is very poor, when they are attacking their one player easily get past mine 3 players.

My idea is simple, to use wing backs for bringing ball to attack, DLP to drop deeper in defence and CM to support every my attack. But that transition from deffence is too slow. Even when i chose high tempo, and direct passing..

I wan't to make good players from Italian youngsters but i simply can't make this formation to be good.

Castellano in just 2 years

So do you guys have some advices for me

And one more question, is good to set up training focus for all players like this? I want to be sure that is not problem why they are playing bad

One of my tactics is very similar to this one, at least from player roles and duties. with all the shorter passing and retain possession on I found my team being too cautious in their approach. everything went through the middle where particularly deep defenses have a quite easy time defending against you. you'll basically run into a wall there, which is the reason why your CMs aren't even trying to get into the box. They simply don't find any space to run into.

Ideally you get your strikers to pull away laterally (so drift to the flanks) to create space for the onrushing midfielders. from my own experience with this setup though they will only do that in the early stages of an attack since that's when they actually find space out there. later on your strikers will be pushed inside by your complete wingbacks and remain pretty static there. That in turn means your CMs have no space to run into since it's still occupied by the strikers.

Several things you can try - either use more cautious full back roles (WB support or even full back support) that provide width a bit deeper and give your strikers space to drift out to the wings, vacating the space for your midfielders to rush into and/or free up the strike partner a bit. it also gives your full backs space to attack in front of them if your move in the middle comes to nothing.

Personally, I tend to use one wing back on attack, the other on support. Against very deep teams I frequently switch my full backs to FB (s). these should also help with your own defensive issues. I'm guessing you struggle heavily against systems which have 2 or 3 strikers and/or 1 striker and an aggressive attacking midfielder. Think about it - the AI when deep usually gets the ball forward to strikers quickly, and with 2 CWBs you will basically be 2 on 2 or worse in those situations. what you probably often see is a long ball to the wings being picked up by an opp striker, who then starts a quick counter attacking move keeping your defense on the back foot.. having more bodies in a position to cover when the long ball is hit will cut down the likelihood of one of their strikers being first to the ball and either dragging a DC away or being completely unmarked out there... pushing up higher could also help to reduce the space between your defense and midfield.

Yes, i am struggling very much against teams with 2 strikers. For example, Fiorentina at some point had Zapata and Mario Gomes as strikers, strong, fast and good finishers, it was hardest game for me.

Changing complete wing backs was something that i would never do just because they were only players in my team to play good. But, of course i will try what you said because it might be helpful and because for 2,5 seasons i can't find instructions and roles for this tactic to work. My results are not bad, simply they play slow and with no creativity no matter which instructions i use. Not scoring much

Because i could not find any solution for this tactic i went to 4-3-3 and instant result, in CL knockout:

This does not make sense at all. With more attacking formation my tackling was better, this 3 midfielders were doing very well and every other aspect of game was much better.

Maybe i have found formation when i am playing home, but now i need formation for away games so i will try your advices, thanks

one swallow does not make a summer. also bear in mind that PSG are giving you space to exploit that most league teams won't give up so easily. so being aggressive often works better against the big teams. I wonder how you'll fare against teams parking the bus. Watch the matches and look for patterns. i.e.

players that are isolated and often have nowhere to run or pass to

are your forwards able to create space with their movement (i.e. will defenders follow them when they drop back or move laterally) - and are you actually using it either by making use of the vacated space with a runner or if the defender does not follow, by having the guy that moved in a dangerous area where he can do damage?

You will only find out why something isn't working by watching any analyzing what you see. From that you can tweak your tactics. Again, the 4-3-1-2 posted above is a really good foundation, but if you want to keep your full backs rushing forward then you might want to actually transition to the attack quicker - and you'll have to make sure there is enough cover from your midfield. again, it is situational and depends on the formation and approach the opponent are using. You will find that the AI is quick to adapt if it "spots" a flaw in your system, and in particular the left flank is an issue and extremely vulnerable to long diagonal passes in your 4-3-1-2. the CMR on defend duty + push higher up like in your 4-3-3 might be a better option for the 4-3-1-2 as well. As said, I sorted this by being less aggressive with my full back roles. or find a way to mask your weakness... can really only say more once you come up with specific examples of what is happening.

I was playing now, and changing to full backs make things even worse. Even less options in attack.

My forwards are after complete wing backs best thing in my team. About their movement, Advanced forward is more stationary but i think defenders are more concentrated on him and then they give my Complete Forward more space so Berrardi is beast for me. I think that is good thing, Berrardi have more space because of Advanced forward. ( sorry if you can't understand what i want to say i am very bad at English )

I know, i am watching games and analyzing for 3 seasons and nothing works. I am simply amazed how some people take Sassulo for example and win league in first season then i am wondering what am i doing wrong. I take care about their morale, training, coaches, so many hours making tactics, every other aspect of game and nothing works, i am near to give up.

Thank you for your help but i realy don't know what to do anymore. I also think that this system 4-3-1-2 is good foundation and even if i am winning, my style of play is just ugly. My players have no intention to take ball from opponent they just let them to play free until shoot. Through balls allways get to their striker or my defender make faul and red card. No matter if i chose push up or drop deeper. I realy can't understand, why every team have perfect passing against me, their striker have perfect movement and their transition from defence to attack is very quick, no matter how bad is that team or player attributes. It is just pure luck for me that their attacks don't finish with goal and then i win.

It looks to me that you want to defend aggressively while playing possession football. In my opinion that requires too many team instructions. Choose counter or control and then modify accordingly.

For instance, If you go control you'll already be defending relatively aggressively, then select pass it shorter to play possession football. Lower tempo to slow things down even more (though pass it shorter should be sufficient), Fewer instructions is almost always better. Never play POD on control, the D already are set to shorter passing. Retain possession doesn't help, nor does pass into space (they'll do that anyway if it is there). Though if you do do retain possession you have to go pass into space as well.

The other advantage to going control is that you can then choose play narrower. This will funnel attacks through the middle of the field without making things too tight. Playing narrower makes the diamond work better.

Think of the wingbacks and the midfielder on that side as a pair. One of them on support the other attack. So CWB/A and BBM/s on one side, WB-S and CM-A on the other. If the WB-S is a good passer that will help.

If you are playing 4-3-1-2, fluid is a good mentality.

Hi Marko, don't apologise for your English, your English is much better than my second language, I promise you!

I have mainly focused on your formation. You say your complete wing backs are the best thing in your team, so if you would like to keep them I have some suggestions:

1) Could you play with a defensive midfielder on defend duty? Maybe even a half back? I think that would help to give some more protection to your defence and also help you to build your play from the back.

2) Another alternative would be to play with three centre backs. That would mean you could still have three centre midfielders and two forwards.

3) Another option, if you would like to keep three attacking forward players would be to use a diamond midfield. Then you could still have a defensive midfielder to protect your defence, and hopefully the attacking midfielder would have more space than he would if he was playing as a third forward?

Best of luck, don't give up!

Hi Mick. Thanks mate for your advice but i have already given up on this game

I have also tried what you said. With half back and defensive midfielder and nothing. Because my defence was very poor i decided to play with 5 defenders, to try parking the bus like every other opponent. But there is no way you can defend like PC teams. I had 5 defenders and 3 midfielders but even then, just two opponent players outplay my whole team with perfect passing and movement and score.

In 4th season i finaly make whole team from Italian players and i was verry happy. ( no i am not Italian, just love Calcio ) In very beggining of season i given up from this game. Only thing i did not try was very fluid and much higher defence, and of course nothing. I tried that, and then given up.

I put almost two days of playing for only 3 seasons, so you can see how much time i spent on making tactics.

Reading carefuly through all threads for tactics advices here, tried everything and there is nothing i can do anymore, game simply is not for me anymore. I am veteran, enjoying from cm 99, but i think my time is done with fm, so much time spent on sometnihg that does not work. I can' blame the game anymore because there is so much players who beat this new FM-s easily. I will eventualy try FM 2016 but i supose that game will work same like 2015 so probably i will retire from fm. Sad momment for me but i have tried everything.

btw, here is mine Italian squad. Just look at their morale, they are happy to play together xD

Balotelli was great in one friendly so i was very excited to see him in league matches. Also, i was happy to see how little Zanetti was progressing, scored as right back two goals from 2 games, i was planing to make him new Javier and captain, realy enjoying my idea for Italian Inter.. and then first league game, 3 mistakes from my defenders ( all 3 were missed headers) and then.. quit game

I typically try to put my attacking FB on the same side as my supporting forward so they have an over lapping option outside of them. In this case I would try F9-S on the left and AF on the right. Not sure if it will actually improve your tactic but it makes sense in my head.

Yes, it makes sense. But not working

Sorry to hear you have given up Marko. You seem to put a lot of time and effort into your tactics, and it can be very frustrating when you aren't getting positive results.

If you are still experimenting with this tactic, the only other thing I can think of which might cause it to under-perform is your team instructions, especially in a very fluid team shape. I can see from the last screenshot you have 10 team instructions. I have seen tactics with a lot of team instructions which seem to work well, but I prefer to use a lot less. Could it be possible that using less of those (and maybe even switching to a fluid or flexible team shape) might help? Sometimes we can give players so many instructions that it makes it hard for them to play in a very fluid team shape because we're telling them to do so many different things, rather than allowing them to play naturally.

Yes, yes i understand what you want to say. That last screenshot is just one of many variations of this tactics which i used while playing. You can see in top of thread one screenshot where i have only 7 instructions. Of course i was trying flexibile, fluid, structured no changes. It does not matter anymore, thank you for your time

And one funny thing, i don't know where are moderators now, they are always talking how every problem is in tactic and game is perfect. But when you want help there is none of them to give you advice

I know it seems like you've tried everything but you haven't and when you are trying things it seems random. I know because I've been there.

But you aren't that far away from being successful. The first step is to define your style in basic terms. How are you going to attack and how are you going to defend? High or low block? Possession or direct?

Then model your formation, mentality, settings accordingly. Right now you are a bit over the place. The last formation you showed is going to play as a 4-3-3 and is quite narrow. The others will set up as a diamond. The combination of roles that will work in each is different. If you go back and forth between them it is going to be hard to figure out what works and what doesn't.

If it were me I'd do what I said above. Go control. This will have you defending relatively high. Add shorter passing. This will lead to greater possession. Then play and see what happens, modifying only one thing at a time.

Other notes:

The best tactic you have here in terms of roles is probably the one with the Baggio picture but there are too many instructions. Change the CM-S on the right side to CM-A and the wingback to WB-S. On the other side change the CM-S to BBM-S. Put your midfielder with the best workrate at BBM/S.

If you are playing control change the goalie to SK/D and add distribute to defenders.

But most of all if you are building a tactic always start simple. Add/change one instruction at a time. Fewer instructions is always better. The thing to remember is that the baseline settings are balanced already to create a prepackaged style that will work. Except for standard which has no style at all but is the easiest to modify to create one. So choose counter or control (I prefer control but they both work) and then modify one thing at a time keeping in mind what the baseline settings are and avoiding redundancy (i.e. play out of defense is redundant and possibly counterproductive on control). If you are struggling with instructions working off of standard is probably a bad idea.

And one funny thing, i don't know where are moderators now, they are always talking how every problem is in tactic and game is perfect. But when you want help there is none of them to give you advice

There is always plenty of good advice about and you had some in this thread. Things don't need to come from Mods to be true! However, if you really want something from a Mod, read rashidi's stickied thread as it specifically features a 4-3-1-2:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/420475-Bust-the-Net-Football-Manager-Tactics

I was testing now with your advice Help333. Using less team instructions, BBM/S, CM/A and WB-S, thank you, but this was the worst play from my team in this 3 seasons. Wing backs are not for this formation, they are simply too wide and no use from them.

Ok RTHerringbone, i know, you have great threads here but i wanted to hear proper advice from some of moderators what to change in my tactic, because you guys are always blaming people tactics. And in one of my posts in this thread you can read this

Reading carefuly through all threads for tactics advices here

Yes, it makes sense. But not working

I'm going to guess your LB is occupying there RB, giving your AF space. With a F9 in the STCR position you could use some width on the right which you might get now with Help333's suggestions.

Can you explain your "Team Shape" decisions? I'm just wondering if your aware how this affects the mentality of the different positions as it can be quite important when looking at your formation and player roles. For example with a flat back 4 and a flat 3 midfield with no DM using Control mentality I personally wouldn't use Fluid, there is already a gap between defense and midfield which will be emphasized by using Fluid. Your defensive group (back 4 + defensive CM) will have low passing range from "Control" mentality, the distance to the offensive group can be further than they're instructed to look, especially adding Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defense etc. giving them few options.

I have trouble explaining on English but i will try again.

I think here is just more than tactic problem. There is realy no need to explain my shape because Fluid is just one of shapes i was testing. I was also trying structured/standard/fluid/very fluid. I have save before start of 4th season. And i don't know how many hours of testing with no results. I load that save, make tactic ( trying different roles / team instructions ) and then play friendlies for tactic to be fluid and then first game - Super Cup against Roma. I have won just one of many, many tries. Their Inside Forwards/Winger are just killing me.

I was trying also much more attacking roles, because anyways there is no use from my defence, they can't stop any striker or winger/inside forward ( i will concede much anyways so better to score more ) but also, no success.

That only time i have won, was with this formation. But i quit game also because i don't want to play with this formation i have too much good strikers to play with only one.

I was so desperate that i was also trying this formation. This was interesting one, when attacking it transforms to real 4-3-3, but i don't have substitute for Insigne so i give up on this one.

I realy want to understand why i can't outplay none of my opponents. To be honest, i was in CL finals in third season and in Euro Cup finals in first season, lost both of course, and finals may look like success but when you know you get there purely on luck, and when you watch your team being destroyed in finals, you know that is not success at all. Ugly style of play, very poor defence and all other.

I am not mad for not winning i just want to see them to play good and i can't understand why i can't do that. Even they lose every final game 10-0 and they play nice i would be pleased. I can't even tell how many times i was playing that Super Cup game against Roma and no matter what instructions, roles, shapes and other i chose it is always the same, slow play, poor defense, and they destroy me every time.

I bring in good Assitant coach with good tactical knowledge so he can help me with opposition instructions, every other coach have great attributes and motivating but my idiots can't have one good game. Alessandro Costacurta now 180 years old would play better defense then this guys.

Morale is superb

I don't know what i need to do anymore..

I've been trying to get a 4-3-1-2 working recently as well, and the most important change I made was to put my AF in the central slot and the AM-A (I use a SS) in the AMCL position. It looks a lot like your formation above where you have Insigne on the left, but having him play on the left of a central three means he is more involved. My midfield three have duties of S-D-S.

You may want to try fewer 'possession' based instructions, since your extremely slow build up from the back may lead to other teams trapping you back there - I just ask my keeper to pass it shorter, less risky etc and this usually raises his pass completion a bit. I do play with weaker teams than Inter though so maybe your players can cope with the pressure, I don't know

I would say though that I seem to have most trouble against 3 central defenders which could be a problem in Italy, I don't know...

I'm no expert by any means but hopefully one or two of these ideas can help a little bit - I was in the same place as you just last week until I hit upon this formation (with a large nod to the 'Fluidity in FM' thread on this forum)!

EDIT: I mean 'Universality' in FM.... (thanks guys )

I've been trying to get a 4-3-1-2 working recently as well, and the most important change I made was to put my AF in the central slot and the AM-A (I use a SS) in the AMCL position. It looks a lot like your formation above where you have Insigne on the left, but having him play on the left of a central three means he is more involved. My midfield three have duties of S-D-S.

You may want to try fewer 'possession' based instructions, since your extremely slow build up from the back may lead to other teams trapping you back there - I just ask my keeper to pass it shorter, less risky etc and this usually raises his pass completion a bit. I do play with weaker teams than Inter though so maybe your players can cope with the pressure, I don't know

I would say though that I seem to have most trouble against 3 central defenders which could be a problem in Italy, I don't know...

I'm no expert by any means but hopefully one or two of these ideas can help a little bit - I was in the same place as you just last week until I hit upon this formation (with a large nod to the 'Fluidity in FM' thread on this forum)!

EDIT: I mean 'Universality' in FM.... (thanks guys )

This is good advice. If you play with possession tactics, especially play out of defense and retain possession, you are going to have trouble getting the ball out of the back against teams that press, and you likely won't be very incisive in the final third. Every tactic I've seen here has retain possession on. Take it off. It's not helping.

For instance, on control your baseline passing is going to be set to short for guys with defend duties. If you add pass it shorter to increase possession amongst the attackers then you need a plan for getting the ball out of the back.

I'd also say that tactics develop over time. Instead of testing it over and over against the same team start with the friendly season. Schedule two games a week and start with a basic tactic and teams worse than you. Modify it slowly, one game at a time, until you are both controlling possession and creating chances. That way you'll know the tactic works in a general sense. Then if you have some time left in the preseason start scheduling games against equal teams and modify again slowly, based upon the difficulties you are encountering. Only change one thing at a time. Otherwise you'll never know what is making the difference and what isn't.

Finally, the pattern of success--failure you described is fairly common. In my first ever season playing the game I lucked into a decent tactic and finished second in the premier league with a good, mid-table, squad. I also got crushed by Chelsea and couldn't do anything about it, and what changes I made made the team worse. It was a few seasons before I was back in a champions league spot, but in the meantime I had learned what works and more importantly, why it works. That process started with reading the various guides but it didn't take hold until I started watching the entirety of games and changing one thing at a time.

I have no much time to write now so i will give you short answers, Flashman, i think i did not try that, but sure i will. It may be good idea.

And help, that is what am i doing, you have this in my last post

I load that save, make tactic ( trying different roles / team instructions ) and then play friendlies for tactic to be fluid

But i did not try to add one instruction at time, so i will do that.

And i also think that possesion and slow transition from defence to attack is biggest problem for this tactic. As i said i have no much time, but i will use your advices, then i will post you results when i get home

I'd like to add that you can't really "beat" this game. This is a simulator, not a game. When you get good at this you can simulate real life football. In real life football good teams with good managers perform badly and objectively worse teams with less skilled managers perform really well. That is life and that is part of any simulator like this. You have to accept that even if you do everything right that at times you lose games you should win. If after every lost game you beat yourself up and assume your tactic isn't working and change something you are going to have a terrible time playing this game. It's hard at times but you have to learn to enjoy the bad luck and just try to do the best you can.

As far as the tactic goes I would personally set up like this:

GK

WB(s), CD(d), DC(d), CWB(a)

BBM(s), CM(d), BWM(s)

Trq(a)

AF(a), CF(s)

The trequartista is for the classic Italian flair. A hard working midfield to support the attacking tridente and a CWB(a) to provide width. It might be a little static in terms of runners from midfield but it should provide a solid structure for a control formation. I would personally go with something more structured to keep the Italian theme going.

Gotta say my sympathies are with Marko as I have tried to get a 4312 consistent for months to no avail and it does get frustrating. You have a great season where you only lose a handful of games and the next you struggle to find the net and your decent defence turns to jelly (and I'm on FMC where morale shouldn't count!!!

Not sure if anyone has any ideas for the three major problems I encounter with this formation, and hopefully it will help Marko as well.

1. Lateral movement of the forward three? Lateral movement in FM seems very poor but trying to get the front two pulling defenders away for the AM seems very difficult no matter what roles you play. My main success goals wise in this formation is through a CF A on the right but no matter what role I play on the left they rarely score and again no matter what role I play in the AM strata it just doesn't click so wondered if anyone has any thoughts>?

2. Defending of the front three? Even with a high block with say closing down and hard tackling on the front three I don't think I have ever seen a mistake from the opposition, an interception from a forward or a rushed pass from panicking defenders. It seems a high block is fairly useless, so is there any way to get it to work? Also is there any way to get those front three to come back and defend deeper? One of my main irritants in FM is that it's pretty impossible to get your forwards doing anything more than hanging around up front when the opposition is attacking. I see a slight improvement on an AM if changed to a support duty but then he loses attacking intent so has anyone found a way to get a front three defending better?

3. If you play a flat three in midfield even a DLP D will not cover the DM strata well enough. If you play a Diamond midfield with a DM then the two CM's will be too narrow and not defend the flanks as well as the do in a flat three so has anyone found a way of getting a DLD D or a CM D to drop into that hole when the opposition attacks? When you have possession with a flat three the DLP D drops pretty much in between the CB's, especially when you have play out of defence ticked as he obviously comes deep to get the ball (will probably have it as a PPM). That is pretty much the area you want him if the opposition attacks but he never drops in. Even with close down less ticked he still stays pretty much in line with the other CM's, so is there anything you can do in closing that gap between the CB's and CM D or DLP D in the midfield~? I find that even pushing up makes no difference.

This was a game. Now is simulator, yes. Game = fun, simulator = frustration.

First of all, i don't want to beat the game or its engine. To save/load until i find formation which works. I want to enjoy like in earlier versions, before 2012. Here, i have nice formation in my first post but it is not working, no matter what i do or change or try to improve. So we need to spend many hours creating tactic and then also many hours reading forums/threads, asking for help and other, just to get some results. I can't understand why SI don't care, every new version is more complicated and less fun. How they can't find balance, beetween reality and fun. Not all of us are tactical or fm experts like moderators or some other people here and of course they will say that game is perfect while rest of us will continue to lose time on figuring why perfectly logical tactic won't work and wait advices on this forum, where we will eventualy find tactic which work but nobody will know why is that tactic working, but ours, decent tactics not.

In my country we have also forums and fb groups for fm, we are huge fans, but many, many fans are quiting fm because of this reasons. There is also people who play this new versions very good, but even they don't know why, when you look at their tactic you can't figure out why it is good. You can't like earlier make your own tactic, improve it how time goes, and when you look at your tactic you can see why it is working, it is logical and nice to you. Now you must follow rules from this forum, and to look for help here. By 'you must' i mean, if you don't use advices from threads here, your tactic is bad and you can't blame the game. Worst thing for me is that SI will continue to develop game in this way, to be more and more complicated until just Alex Ferguson will be able to beat it.

There is realy no need to tell me i am wrong i know you think that, just look how many people are complaining. Just tell me, do you don't miss old games where you had so much fun whithout asking for help. I think i have spent more hours here reading about some mamba samba tactics then actualy playing game, because simply game won't let you to be creative anymore.

2004/cm4 was good because that was time when Calcio was strong and CL was harder to win. Even if you just want to win Serie A you must work hard but eventualy as you get stronger and stroneger through seasons you will do that.

FM 2005 was sooo much fun, completely unreal but unbelivable fun. Dribling attribute was most important, and you could take some very bad team, buy Daniel Bierofka for 675k and then start to build your team around him, you could win everything with almost any team just with good tactic and scouting for good driblers. That was easy, but fun

2006 was a little bit harder because they fixed that with dribling, and of course that was good thing, to actualy fix bad things and make game little harder, not 100 times complicated like now

FM 2007-2012 were very fun. Fast players were best, but you must have good tactic, to be good at managing your budget so you can buy that fast players, but game respect your hard work in making tactic and good scouting and you will eventualy win trophies

FM 2013, 2014, 2015 i was more on forums than in the game, searching why perfectly logical tactics wont work. Instead fixing that with fast players to make them less good, or fixing match engine flaws they are making game more complicated with no reasons. Game now have this beautiful flat design, youngsters are developing good if you treat them well ( better than in older games), with player/stadium/ pictures it looks realy nice, but most important things are not understandable. Tactics. You can't figure out why your tactic is not working but every opponent even worst team in the league have perfect tactic, because when they are attacking, no matter what attributes they have you will se perfect passing, thinking and movement from them. I am waiting FM 16 to play with Parma, but why, i can't even for 48 hours of playing with inter to make them play good, how will i play then with much worse team. Sorry for long post and grammar errors i had to write everything i think. To be clear, i don't want easy game, i just want game to respect how much time and hard work you put in tactics, i love to try hard until find good formation, but here is that just not a case.

GK

WB(s), CD(d), DC(d), CWB(a)

BBM(s), CM(d), BWM(s)

Trq(a)

AF(a), CF(s)

The trequartista is for the classic Italian flair. A hard working midfield to support the attacking tridente and a CWB(a) to provide width. It might be a little static in terms of runners from midfield but it should provide a solid structure for a control formation. I would personally go with something more structured to keep the Italian theme going.

Those three CM players will also close down opponents. You need one to hold position, which will help in defense and with ball retention. Either change to DLP or manually set CM (D) to close down much less. Also, keep in mind that, even though a Treq drops deep, it will be up to your CM (D) to link defense and attack. So again, either a role that allows him longer passing range or make the switch yourself manually. CM are versatile, but you often have to tweak it more.

I'd also remove CWB and make it a regular WB (A). CWB has roaming on, and will often drift towards the middle, where it's already crowded and, more importantly, robs you of your only source of width. In truth, I've yet to find a formation where a CWB is more useful than a WB.

Those three CM players will also close down opponents. You need one to hold position, which will help in defense and with ball retention. Either change to DLP or manually set CM (D) to close down much less. Also, keep in mind that, even though a Treq drops deep, it will be up to your CM (D) to link defense and attack. So again, either a role that allows him longer passing range or make the switch yourself manually. CM are versatile, but you often have to tweak it more.

I'd also remove CWB and make it a regular WB (A). CWB has roaming on, and will often drift towards the middle, where it's already crowded and, more importantly, robs you of your only source of width. In truth, I've yet to find a formation where a CWB is more useful than a WB.

A CWB can be lethal in the right setup - and if you have the right player. one of the 4-3-1-2 variant I used had a CWB(a) on the right with two holding mids and a CFs on the right side (MC was a DLP(s) and MCR a CM(d) with close down much less to cover for the CWB). only used the formation for approx 10 matches as I didn't want my CWB to be my top scorer, and he certainly threatened to be. IIRC he scored 6 or 7 in the stretch while chipping in with a few assists.

In order for the CWB to be effective you need to - as with most other roles that rely on attacking with pace, create the space for them.

This is what i was talking about in my last post.... no words..

A CWB can be lethal in the right setup - and if you have the right player. .

That's kind of the point - if you have a player to be a perfect CWB, it's kind of a shame to use him as a CWB, like Bale for instance, and you also have to tailor your formation for him to be effective.

Too much trouble for little gain, imho.

The point, if you want your full backs to provide width (especially in a wingless formation), don't use CWB's. That's not what they do.

That's kind of the point - if you have a player to be a perfect CWB, it's kind of a shame to use him as a CWB, like Bale for instance, and you also have to tailor your formation for him to be effective.

Too much trouble for little gain, imho.

The point, if you want your full backs to provide width (especially in a wingless formation), don't use CWB's. That's not what they do.

if all they should do is provide width then I agree. I personnally use a CWB if I want my full back to be an aggressive runner into the box on the side away from the ball. In the right setup that works. They still generally have a tendency to provide width, in particular when the ball is on "their" side. Again, it entirely up to the setup.

I have also toyed with a 3-3-3-1 (3 central defenders, 2 wing backs flanking a DMC, 3 AMs and one forward. Robben loved to start from the wing back slot and creating havoc all game. In fact, this is a setup Pep has used a fair few times. of course you would not necessarily opt for a CWB if width is all you want from your wing back. But it is not true that wou have to build the whole setup around the CWB for that guy to be effective. We were talking about what can the CWB offer that the WB can't and there are certain things the CWB does when given the opportunity that the WB won't .

This was a game. Now is simulator, yes. Game = fun, simulator = frustration.

First of all, i don't want to beat the game or its engine. To save/load until i find formation which works. I want to enjoy like in earlier versions, before 2012. Here, i have nice formation in my first post but it is not working, no matter what i do or change or try to improve. So we need to spend many hours creating tactic and then also many hours reading forums/threads, asking for help and other, just to get some results. I can't understand why SI don't care, every new version is more complicated and less fun. How they can't find balance, beetween reality and fun. Not all of us are tactical or fm experts like moderators or some other people here and of course they will say that game is perfect while rest of us will continue to lose time on figuring why perfectly logical tactic won't work and wait advices on this forum, where we will eventualy find tactic which work but nobody will know why is that tactic working, but ours, decent tactics not.....

That post comes off very "i only have fun when i'm winning".

Why should the game let you win just because you think you have a good tactic? Maybe the problem is the group of players you've assembled? Maybe they have good visible attributes but stuff like Consistency, Big Games, Pressure etc aren't good which makes your performances more random? Saving/Reloading to try different tactics won't change your teams players situation, if a players having a bad patch changing him from AP-A to AP-S isn't going to suddenly make his first touch better. Neither will it change your opponents that much, if they have players coming into good form and your players on having a rough patch then you will struggle. Recognizing what is a tactic issue and a player issue is one of the main skills of succeeding in this game, sometimes you get lucky and have some players playing amazingly and can allow players in poor form to work through there issues.

Your players won't play at 100% of there ability every game, its up to you to make the decisions, and sometimes whatever you decide won't work. Thats why so many replies here are "watch the game", if your AP-A is letting the ball run 10m away from him when controlling it, he's not on form, he's giving away possession and not creating anything, thats not the tactics issue. Are your team nervous and making poor decisions? Maybe your team talk wasn't right or the players can't handle the pressure of expectation? Maybe in 2012 the team you assembled was just better than you have in 2015? Why is it the games fault you HAVE to succeed with that group? This is Football Manager, not Tactics Tester.

I've been trying the same formation as OP and, after checking the AM position roles, i notice the following:

Attacking Midfielder role: has "get forward" instruction active

Advanced Playmaker role: has "get forward" optional, yet the role is positioned further forward on the tactics screen, indicating a more attacking mentality

What gives?

Gotta say my sympathies are with Marko as I have tried to get a 4312 consistent for months to no avail and it does get frustrating. You have a great season where you only lose a handful of games and the next you struggle to find the net and your decent defence turns to jelly (and I'm on FMC where morale shouldn't count!!!

Not sure if anyone has any ideas for the three major problems I encounter with this formation, and hopefully it will help Marko as well.

1. Lateral movement of the forward three? Lateral movement in FM seems very poor but trying to get the front two pulling defenders away for the AM seems very difficult no matter what roles you play. My main success goals wise in this formation is through a CF A on the right but no matter what role I play on the left they rarely score and again no matter what role I play in the AM strata it just doesn't click so wondered if anyone has any thoughts>?

2. Defending of the front three? Even with a high block with say closing down and hard tackling on the front three I don't think I have ever seen a mistake from the opposition, an interception from a forward or a rushed pass from panicking defenders. It seems a high block is fairly useless, so is there any way to get it to work? Also is there any way to get those front three to come back and defend deeper? One of my main irritants in FM is that it's pretty impossible to get your forwards doing anything more than hanging around up front when the opposition is attacking. I see a slight improvement on an AM if changed to a support duty but then he loses attacking intent so has anyone found a way to get a front three defending better?

3. If you play a flat three in midfield even a DLP D will not cover the DM strata well enough. If you play a Diamond midfield with a DM then the two CM's will be too narrow and not defend the flanks as well as the do in a flat three so has anyone found a way of getting a DLD D or a CM D to drop into that hole when the opposition attacks? When you have possession with a flat three the DLP D drops pretty much in between the CB's, especially when you have play out of defence ticked as he obviously comes deep to get the ball (will probably have it as a PPM). That is pretty much the area you want him if the opposition attacks but he never drops in. Even with close down less ticked he still stays pretty much in line with the other CM's, so is there anything you can do in closing that gap between the CB's and CM D or DLP D in the midfield~? I find that even pushing up makes no difference.

Regarding the DLP/D dropping deep in defense, are you playing on Fluid? In my opinion if you are going to play 4-3-1-2, playing fluid will help with precisely the problem you've identified.

there are multiple ways to make the defend duty midfielder cover the space in front of the defense.

1) ask him to close down less, or even much less.

2) push higher up to close the gap between your midfield and the defense.

3) a different approach is to change the duty of one of your central defenders to stopper.

4) if he is out of position in early phases of the attack often, asking him to dribble less also can help.

it again depends on the players you use, the overall team mentality, and shape.

edit double post

Regarding the DLP/D dropping deep in defense, are you playing on Fluid? In my opinion if you are going to play 4-3-1-2, playing fluid will help with precisely the problem you've identified.

Yep on fluid....

I just tried something off the cuff and whilst it was only one game it was interesting.

Was 2-0 down away against Stoke and getting a tad over run. Changed the two centre backs to cover/stopper and made my wing backs into Inverted Wing Backs. Never used them before. Ok the cross count went down but I defended better hardly giving Stoke a sniff and my shot count was 27 shots with 17 on target, probably one of my highest ever on target totals. Possession I had 59% and won 4-2 scoring 3 goals in 6 minutes after the change.

It was interesting that the wing backs played like extra central midfielders so clearly helping me to win the battle of the midfield. I'll keep an eye on it but an intriguing start on a first ever use of IWB's!!

there are multiple ways to make the defend duty midfielder cover the space in front of the defense.

1) ask him to close down less, or even much less.

2) push higher up to close the gap between your midfield and the defense.

3) a different approach is to change the duty of one of your central defenders to stopper.

4) if he is out of position in early phases of the attack often, asking him to dribble less also can help.

it again depends on the players you use, the overall team mentality, and shape.

1 and 2 are exactly what i do when i play a 4-3-1-2

It is just embarassing how unfair this game is.

Started for second time with Atalanta to give this game one more chance and again the same almost 100% of opponents shots in target is goal, given up on this game at half time with Verona. Shame.

Just one of many screenshots form last time i was playing with this team

I will never buy FM again. Never.

Thread closed. It's just descended into another thread like the last one